TromboneChat

Sesquitone wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:28 amThere is some confusion about the Kunitz tuning because in Doug Yeo's article, it is described as F/Eb/Bb/Ab, which is not a viable combination! The Alex, owned at the time by Alan Charlesworth (with the original Kunitz linkages), that I tried out at the ITF meeting at North Texas State University, was definitely tuned F/C-D-Bb; and this is how it was described in the original Kunitz patents, two (of the three) of which I have copies. And you can see this by the length of the attachment tubing in the patent sketch (not precisely to scale) and the picture of the real thing.

Looking at the Kunitz patent pictures, my mind went right to a Courtois 500R inline bass trombone. I wonder if this is where they got the concept of having the finger valve come before the thumb valve on the gooseneck. Just an observation.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:58 pm

Except that you need a G in long 7th on the F valve for the beginning of the glisses in Hary Janos.

I did say "rarely". That is probably the only time where most double valve bass players find themselves "needing" a long 7th. I doubt there are any trombone makers who take that note into consideration. I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it. But if you can play an in tune low C in 7th, then that G is also playable.

I want to see all of your thoughts on this but I’ve just been told to pull out the F slide about as far as you need to make the G solid and the Cs will speak well enough that with a tuba or accompaniment it’s negligible

Sesquitone wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:19 pm
By the way, my original Conn 88H conversion, Bb/G-E-D, was stolen from our home in Staten Island in 1981—along with my beautiful Bb/G "Bolero", the Meinl & Lauber bass sackbut, a Bach 50B2 that was awaiting conversion at Gardinelli's (to Bb/G-E-D), and several other "early music" instruments. [I think the burglars probably thought that the consort of viols consisted of some kind of easily fenced guitars!] I wouldn't be surprised if the Conn and the sackbut are today nailed up behind some bar in some New York City dive as "decoration".

I'm very sorry to hear that.

I was finally able to access my copy of the TROMBONE CONVERSION article, undoubtedly written by Paul Faulise (although attributed to "GIARDINELLI" in the index) in the Souvenir Journal of the 4th Annual New York Brass Conference for Scholarships, January 1976. These in-line dual-valve conversions followed from experience gained from the conversion of my Conn 88H (to Bb/G-E-D) carried out by lead technician Jack Onqué at the Giardinelli shop. [The (heavily cropped) photo that was shown earlier, although clearly taken at the same time, does not appear in the article.] The first photo here shows Bob Giardinelli holding the bell of the dependent-valve Bach 50B2 and Paul holding the in-line conversion; they are literally pointing to the difference in valve geometry. From the second photo, you can see that Bob and Paul are very pleased with the result—which looks an awful lot like a prototype for a Bach 50B3, with a slight difference in wrap geometry (notice the absence of a main tuning-crook brace). [There are some errors in the valve designations in the examples, which should be easy to spot. And some cut-and-paste (or copy-but-don't-cut) "word-processor" duplication in the text.]



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Sesquitone wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:28 am There is some confusion about the Kunitz tuning because in Doug Yeo's article, it is described as F/Eb/Bb/Ab, which is not a viable combination! The Alex, owned at the time by Alan Charlesworth (with the original Kunitz linkages), that I tried out at the ITF meeting at North Texas State University, was definitely tuned F/C-D-Bb; and this is how it was described in the original Kunitz patents, two (of the three) of which I have copies. And you can see this by the length of the attachment tubing in the patent sketch (not precisely to scale) and the picture of the real thing.

I barely have an idea of what's going on in this thread, and I have no horse in the race, but are you saying that F/Eb/Bb/Ab on a trombone isn't a thing at all? Because if so, I have an instrument that says otherwise.

If I misunderstood, apologies.

This thread is beyond the comprehension of trombone players

Actually, we seem to have drifted quite a distance from the original topic.

baroquetrombone wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 4:40 pmI barely have an idea of what's going on in this thread, and I have no horse in the race, but are you saying that F/Eb/Bb/Ab on a trombone isn't a thing at all? Because if so, I have an instrument that says otherwise.

If I understand correctly, they're talking about an open horn in F with independent valves, one which lowers the pitch a whole step (Eb) and another which lowers the pitch three and a half steps (Bb). Combining the two valves won't get you four and half steps (Ab).

Sesquitone wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 2:50 pm I was finally able to access my copy of the TROMBONE CONVERSION article, undoubtedly written by Paul Faulise (although attributed to "GIARDINELLI" in the index) in the Souvenir Journal of the 4th Annual New York Brass Conference for Scholarships, January 1976. These in-line dual-valve conversions followed from experience gained from the conversion of my Conn 88H (to Bb/G-E-D) carried out by lead technician Jack Onqué at the Giardinelli shop. [The (heavily cropped) photo that was shown earlier, although clearly taken at the same time, does not appear in the article.] The first photo here shows Bob Giardinelli holding the bell of the dependent-valve Bach 50B2 and Paul holding the in-line conversion; they are literally pointing to the difference in valve geometry. From the second photo, you can see that Bob and Paul are very pleased with the result—which looks an awful lot like a prototype for a Bach 50B3, with a slight difference in wrap geometry (notice the absence of a main tuning-crook brace). [There are some errors in the valve designations in the examples, which should be easy to spot. And some cut-and-paste (or copy-but-don't-cut) "word-processor" duplication in the text.]

Thanks for posting this! Very interesting. It doesn't look like a modified Bach, though. It looks like a modified Conn. It has that sharper first bend in the F valve tubing on the bell side, but the more rounded bend at the top, unlike Bach's dual radius bend on their F attachment tubing. The first part of the F tubing looks unchanged from original Conn except for removing the second in-line valve and replacing it with straight tubing, and then rotating the turn-around bend at the top so the valve tuning slide goes around the front of the instrument instead of the back. But the valves were obviously swapped to have the second valve first. The configuration of the ports is the opposite of a dependent Conn. And I can almost see the more decorative socket on the bell brace that Conns have, although it's too blurry to be sure.

I apologise for drifting way off the original topic. I should have opened up and linked to a new topic when we first started chatting about dual valves to the exclusion of their (reduced) requirements for handslide length.