A great video

[Basbasun]

How have they observed it in action?

When the sound what you are striving for, you are playing with the "right aperture".

I don't think that's always the case. Some players will strive for a particular sound quality by doing things that make their sound darker in the low and middle register, but end up restricting how their upper register works.


Dave

Well, you are ritgh in that.
I wold ask the student if the dark low and middle range is so important that to sacrifice the high range is ok. I think the hunt for the dark sound is often going to far. A good sound is not allway that dark. Many students think they have sound that is not the same as the listener hear. Many times I have recorded students to let them find out a little more about their sound. Usually the "very dark" sounds do change.

[imsevimse]

I put some thougts about these videos in another thread.
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22076

This is a great thread!!!

/Tom

[Wilktone]

Thanks for your thoughts, baileyman, but I'm afraid I still don't follow your point. For example, this part seems like a backhanded compliment:

This is the adamant authoritative position.

If I'm coming across as arrogant, I apologize as that's not my intention. Yes, I have some firmly held beliefs on brass embouchure technique and music pedagogy. I've been trying to explain how I came to these ideas so that others can perhaps benefit from my experiences. And if it's not clear, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to this stuff because my mentors took the time to do similarly for me.

This part is even more confusing:

The other position is to take his meaning as what he does, and then translate his words to also mean what he does in the usage of the translator.

Meanwhile, those listening to the translator must follow the same process to try to relate the translator's words to their own meaning.

I have considered that you're being intentionally obtuse in order to allow us to take whatever meaning we want from those statements. It would be a clever way to prove a point, I guess. Trying to parse out what you're literally writing is difficult. Who is the "translator?" The individual receiving the instruction? If I tried to reword your thoughts I might say, "Take the instructor's descriptions of how he plays and then interpret them literally, but change around according to how you play. When others listen to that second hand description of how to play we must do the same."

I wold ask the student if the dark low and middle range is so important that to sacrifice the high range is ok. I think the hunt for the dark sound is often going to far.

Yes. For many players it's better to work in the high register and accept a thinner sound in the low register at first, then learn how to open up the tone in a way that connects with the rest of the range. It might seem harder in the short term, but I feel it has better long term results.

This is a great thread!!!

Yes, I have enjoyed reading what others have to say, especially when it challenges my own ideas. It helps me learn to communicate my thoughts more clearly and adjust my ideas when I'm off.

Dave

[baileyman]

Thanks for your thoughts, baileyman, but I'm afraid I still don't follow your point. For example, this part seems like a backhanded compliment:

This is the adamant authoritative position.

If I'm coming across as arrogant, I apologize as that's not my intention. Yes, I have some firmly held beliefs on brass embouchure technique and music pedagogy. I've been trying to explain how I came to these ideas so that others can perhaps benefit from my experiences. And if it's not clear, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to this stuff because my mentors took the time to do similarly for me.

This part is even more confusing:

The other position is to take his meaning as what he does, and then translate his words to also mean what he does in the usage of the translator.

Meanwhile, those listening to the translator must follow the same process to try to relate the translator's words to their own meaning.

I have considered that you're being intentionally obtuse in order to allow us to take whatever meaning we want from those statements. It would be a clever way to prove a point, I guess. Trying to parse out what you're literally writing is difficult. Who is the "translator?" The individual receiving the instruction? If I tried to reword your thoughts I might say, "Take the instructor's descriptions of how he plays and then interpret them literally, but change around according to how you play. When others listen to that second hand description of how to play we must do the same."

...
Dave

I'll try one last time because I do not think continuing is worthwhile, but at least I should be understood.

The fellow in the video who so beautifully demonstrated what he was talking about, can be understood to be doing exactly what he says, and that what he says is exactly what he is doing. Now, if I were doing exactly what he does and then talked about it, I would use different words, for sure. But I think my words would also be an exact description of what I was doing. If I want to understand his description, I have to "translate" what he is saying to something I can understand about what he is doing. I think I was able to do that so I appreciated both what he did and what he said.

In this scheme there is no room for me to say he did not do what he says, or he cannot say what he does, or that if he did what he said it would not work, that what he says is wrong, or any number of other such conclusions of error. I think the furthest I could legitimately go in that direction would be that I may not be able to make the connection between what someone says and how I would understand it. That is, I might fail at translation. But if I fail, I certainly cannot conclude someone else was wrong.

What I hope I would do would be to say to myself, I don't get it, but the example is powerful, so I hope to make the connection between what he says and what I can understand and do.

[PosauneCat]

I’m amazed at the number of responses to this post. I am the original poster, but I actually tried to retract it shortly after posting as someone suggested that posts of this nature often just devolve into nonsense and bickering. Well, apparently this one didn’t. It’s my best accidental post ever! I’ll admit, I haven’t followed it at all but I’m glad it has resulted in a good conversation!

You’re welcome.

Mike

[Basbasun]

I'll try one last time because I do not think continuing is worthwhile, but at least I should be understood.

The fellow in the video who so beautifully demonstrated what he was talking about, can be understood to be doing exactly what he says, and that what he says is exactly what he is doing. Now, if I were doing exactly what he does and then talked about it, I would use different words, for sure. But I think my words would also be an exact description of what I was doing. If I want to understand his description, I have to "translate" what he is saying to something I can understand about what he is doing. I think I was able to do that so I appreciated both what he did and what he said.

In this scheme there is no room for me to say he did not do what he says, or he cannot say what he does, or that if he did what he said it would not work, that what he says is wrong, or any number of other such conclusions of error. I think the furthest I could legitimately go in that direction would be that I may not be able to make the connection between what someone says and how I would understand it. That is, I might fail at translation. But if I fail, I certainly cannot conclude someone else was wrong.

What I hope I would do would be to say to myself, I don't get it, but the example is powerful, so I hope to make the connection between what he says and what I can understand and do.

What Dione Tucker and Magnussen is demonstrating is that holding their lips partly open, the airflow can get them to vibrate.

You can do that to I am sure, I do play like that, I know many players do that. (What I do when I play with a fuzzy sound is exaggerate that, open the aperture "to much" in the middle, to mention that in this was just to show my point, the Bernoulli effect create a vacum between the lips. You can fight the vacum, just letting the side of the lips close. I realize that talking about the fuzzy sound was misstake, it just made cofusions)

Many players use the "M" to close the lips and blow them apart, other (like I) blow the together. Both work.
In the pivot system the lips are hold together and blown apart. (Don Reinhardt wrote: not tongued apart, wich is not how it works, exept I did know a very good trumpet player who did just that)

What happens when the air is flowing, the lips vibrate and the sound is in the air is probably the same for many players. If you start with the lips closed the airflow will open the lips and the air flow will close them (Bernoulli) If you you start with the lips open the air will close them (Bernoulli) the standing wave will keep the vibrations steady within the series of partials.

(The experiment with the hairdryer is a good one!)

[Wilktone]

The fellow in the video who so beautifully demonstrated what he was talking about, can be understood to be doing exactly what he says, and that what he says is exactly what he is doing.

Thanks, baileyman, I think I now understand where our thoughts diverge. It seems that you're willing to take Tucker's descriptions at face value as what he's actually doing, or at least don't find any inaccuracies to be meaningful enough to let that stop you. I think you also find a lot of inspiration in the video and feel that makes it valuable. Totally fair.

And where I split from you is my feeling that he isn't really playing the way he describes. I find the suggestions he offers to not be accurate to what is probably happening to play, and so I prefer to teach and approach my practice in a different way. I too find his videos inspirational.

I’m amazed at the number of responses to this post. I am the original poster, but I actually tried to retract it shortly after posting as someone suggested that posts of this nature often just devolve into nonsense and bickering. Well, apparently this one didn’t.

I tried my best to bicker and be nonsensical. I'll need to work harder on that.

What Dione Tucker and Magnussen is demonstrating is that holding their lips partly open, the airflow can get them to vibrate.

Yeah, but I'm not really convinced that they actually hold their lips partly open while they are playing the horn. I think they find it a helpful playing sensation to go after, but I strongly suspect that their chops are working like everyone else's in those slow motion videos.

Unless you mean they are starting the blowing with the lips in an open position and then they start to close after they commence blowing, in which case that certainly is possible. I don't feel it's the best way to play, but it certainly can be done.

(Don Reinhardt wrote: not tongued apart, wich is not how it works, exept I did know a very good trumpet player who did just that)

Just to be clear, I don't think that Reinhardt states that this is "how it works," but rather that he felt tonguing on the lips was detrimental over the long term and wanted his students to avoid doing that.

Dave

[Basbasun]

What Dione Tucker and Magnussen is demonstrating is that holding their lips partly open, the airflow can get them to vibrate.

Yeah, but I'm not really convinced that they actually hold their lips partly open while they are playing the horn. I think they find it a helpful playing sensation to go after, but I strongly suspect that their chops are working like everyone else's in those slow motion videos.

Unless you mean they are starting the blowing with the lips in an open position and then they start to close after they commence blowing, in which case that certainly is possible. I don't feel it's the best way to play, but it certainly can be done.

(Don Reinhardt wrote: not tongued apart, wich is not how it works, exept I did know a very good trumpet player who did just that)

Just to be clear, I don't think that Reinhardt states that this is "how it works," but rather that he felt tonguing on the lips was detrimental over the long term and wanted his students to avoid doing that.

Dave

Eh, Dave when the lips vibrate they do touch in phase open/closed. I don´t know really what you mean or if you don´t understand what I am writing.

Some players do hold their lips in M position when playing (or they say they do) some players hold their lips partly open (or they say they do) In either case the lips open/close rapidly.) ( I say it is possible to play with leak, a fuzzy tone, but that is another story) .
Maybe it is a good idea to think of other horns like woodwind. A saxophone reed is in the open phase when not blown. The reed is still conected in the same way when it is played, but it is doing the open/closed trick like trombone lips do. There is a difference, the saxophone can´t start with a closed reed/mothpiece it must start with the open phase and lett the airflow start the close/open rutin.

About what Reinhardt wrote about the tongue, I think it is a good idea to rad the book.

[Wilktone]

Eh, Dave when the lips vibrate they do touch in phase open/closed. I don´t know really what you mean or if you don´t understand what I am writing.

I understand now, but it can be confusing the way we sometimes are phrasing the descriptions in this thread (which is very similar to how the Chop Shop video is phrasing his description in a vague manner that leaves much open to interpretation).

What Dione Tucker and Magnussen is demonstrating is that holding their lips partly open, the airflow can get them to vibrate.

The above quote was what I was responding to. You wrote that those players are "holding their lips partly open." That can imply that they are *keeping* their lips open while playing the instrument. That is what Magnussen actually claims is happening when he plays (which I doubt).

Tucker doesn't clarify in the video we've been discussing, but I recall hearing him mention that the aperture opens and closes in another video of his, so I don't think he's implying the same as Magnuessn. Tucker just leaves it ambiguous, which can be confusing.

About what Reinhardt wrote about the tongue, I think it is a good idea to rad the book.

In his "Encyclopedia" Reinhardt mentions tonguing between the teeth and lips a number of times. Here is an excerpt.

According to the old-fashioned method of attack, the student was instructed that the tip of his tongue must penetrate between his teeth and lips as though he were sitting seeds, threads, or confetti from the top of his tongue. Unfortunately, this disastrous, destructive, and illegal method of attacking has been handed down by instruction books and teachers for many years...

No other single playing fault is more detrimental to range, flexibility, endurance, and playing confidence than the tongue penetration habit...

The principal evils caused by permitting the tip of the tongue to penetrate between the teeth and lips for the attack are based upon the fact that the mouthpiece is constantly bobbing and shifting its position during and detached tongued passages. This playing fault is caused by the performer's subconsciously releasing his mouthpiece playing pressure from against his lips prior to the attack, so that the tip of his tongue is permitted to penetrate between his teeth and lips. While the tongue snaps back into the mouth to release the air column, the mouthpiece is subconsciously thrust back to its normal position and pressure against the lips... In short, every time that this type of performer execute his attack, he is actually hitting himself with the mouthpiece3, hence his lips are subject to a tremendous beating.

Some players only will attach their initial attack this way and tongue behind the upper teeth and gums for the any attacks afterwards. Some performers will only tongue against the lips for the low register. In those circumstances I would imagine that the problem Reinhardt notes would be less of an impact, but I still prefer to try to keep my tongue off my lips as much as possible and teach my students to reduce or eliminate tonguing off the lips too.

Dave

[Kbiggs]

About what Reinhardt wrote about the tongue, I think it is a good idea to rad the book.

In his "Encyclopedia" Reinhardt mentions tonguing between the teeth and lips a number of times. Here is an excerpt.

According to the old-fashioned method of attack, the student was instructed that the tip of his tongue must penetrate between his teeth and lips as though he were sitting seeds, threads, or confetti from the top of his tongue. Unfortunately, this disastrous, destructive, and illegal method of attacking has been handed down by instruction books and teachers for many years...

No other single playing fault is more detrimental to range, flexibility, endurance, and playing confidence than the tongue penetration habit...

The principal evils caused by permitting the tip of the tongue to penetrate between the teeth and lips for the attack are based upon the fact that the mouthpiece is constantly bobbing and shifting its position during and detached tongued passages. This playing fault is caused by the performer's subconsciously releasing his mouthpiece playing pressure from against his lips prior to the attack, so that the tip of his tongue is permitted to penetrate between his teeth and lips. While the tongue snaps back into the mouth to release the air column, the mouthpiece is subconsciously thrust back to its normal position and pressure against the lips... In short, every time that this type of performer execute his attack, he is actually hitting himself with the mouthpiece3, hence his lips are subject to a tremendous beating.

Some players only will attach their initial attack this way and tongue behind the upper teeth and gums for the any attacks afterwards. Some performers will only tongue against the lips for the low register. In those circumstances I would imagine that the problem Reinhardt notes would be less of an impact, but I still prefer to try to keep my tongue off my lips as much as possible and teach my students to reduce or eliminate tonguing off the lips too.

Dave

Coincidental that you posted this. I noticed many years ago that I tend to do just that: the initial note of a phrase was often with the tongue touching the lips between the teeth, while most subsequent articulations during that same use of the breath were just above the teeth. I’ve been working on starting notes with a breath attack, and then playing the same etude or passage with a very light “duh” tongue to start notes. I believe my notes are less explosive this way, and my tongue does not tire as easily.

I still tend to get notes that are “split” at the very beginning, and come out as a “splee-ahh,” if you know what I mean. It’s decreasing, which I take as a good sign. But that’s a slightly different problem related to formation of the lips and being prepared during inhalation.

Another thing that I’ve noticed recently: I still keep my corners firm and the lower lip smooth and flat, but I’m not as “tight” across the lower lip (less “smile,” if you will). I believe—and I may be be wrong here—that doing so is allowing more of the lip to vibrate freely. It has also allowed me to push the tuning slide way in (maybe 1/8” out), and I’m getting less fatigued. I believe I was playing “under the pitch” and using a lot of embouchure strength to bring notes up to pitch.

At least, that’s what I’m telling myself…

[Basbasun]

Yes Magnussen have an idea of the lips staying open in the vibration when playing. It can feel like that, but that is not my idea. Or Dian Tuckers idea.
The thing in the book is not that one, it is about open the lips with the tongue, I can´t find the book at the moment, and I have very little time to look for it. maybe I find it latter.

[timothy42b]

This guy plays well, has some weird ideas (where you breathe affects the length of the air column).

[timothy42b]

This guy plays well, has some weird ideas (where you breathe affects the length of the air column).

Interesting about tongue position and range, also does a demonstration playing with corners open.

[baileyman]

"playing low with the high compression set"
"relaxing down instead of lifting up"
"It's not air flow but air pressure"

Interesting stuff.

[Wilktone]

Yeah, I haven't made it all the way through the entire interview. His discussion about the length of the air column can't be technically accurate, but if it helps him or others figure out how to breathe then it's no different than some of the other things we've been discussing here.

[timothy42b]

Yeah, I haven't made it all the way through the entire interview. His discussion about the length of the air column can't be technically accurate, but if it helps him or others figure out how to breathe then it's no different than some of the other things we've been discussing here.

Yes, I almost stopped there thinking he was way off base, but I kept listening and the rest of it made sense.

Interesting demonstration playing with the corners open and gapped.

[Oslide]

An unusual silence...

[robcat2075]

It's really not clear what you are proposing anymore.

I'm just illustrating that you don't like the concept being discussed no matter who is teaching it, because you are taking them too literally....

So i guess he was being ironic. That is such a good tactic in instructional video.*

Perhaps we need a second video, to explain what was literally meant by the first video.


* I used irony there.


-

[harrisonreed]

I'm just illustrating that you don't like the concept being discussed no matter who is teaching it, because you are taking them too literally....

So i guess he was being ironic. That is such a good tactic in instructional video.*

Perhaps we need a second video, to explain what was literally meant by the first video.


* I used irony there.


-

No idea why you are digging this back up, from over a month ago.

[Oslide]

To be clear, I was referring

An unusual silence...

to the almost total absence of reactions to the video of Dowdeswell

This guy plays well, has some weird ideas (where you breathe affects the length of the air column).

I would have expected - and loved to read - more comments on his views.

[baileyman]

I was hoping he would read the thread and engage some folks.