Doubling on Tuba: Instrument Choice

[tbonesullivan]

I finally got the itch for a Tuba, mainly so I don't have to deal with out of tune tuba players in community groups anymore. I went to Dillon Music, and tried out a bunch of tubas. Previously I had gone to Baltimore brass a few years back, tried out a King 2341, and was just not able to really play it at all.

This time, I was trying out a Yamaha YBB631 and YBB632 for part of the time. These are both 3+1 compensating tubas in BBb, and I was using a Helleberg 7b for most of the playing. I have a 120S but I think it's just too big for me.

Anyway, I could not really get the notes to center, and even the better 632 just felt "stuffy" and ponderous.

In the other room, they had a kinda beat up YEB-321 in Eb, so I tried to play that with the 7b. Well, it was night and day. Notes came out. Notes slotted. Notes SOUNDED GOOD. Even though I am not a fan of 4 valves in a row (weak pinky finger), it was actually enjoyable to play it.

So, I'm really just trying to figure out if this is typical. Does BBb just take longer to get used to? Should I figure that Eb is just going to work better for me and stick with that? Any advice would be great. I'm really a fan of the 3+1 british setup, like on my Euphonium.

[BGuttman]

As someone who made a change much like you did some 30 years ago, I can offer my experience:

1. My first tuba was a very old Conn-Worcester Eb with 3 valves (I still have it). Small bore. Played like a large Baritone Horn. Only problem is that it's really too small for a large ensemble.

2. I tried Bb tubas from my community band and found them uniformly difficult to play, except for one: a Sansone BBb with 4 valves that was rather small bore. The other tuba players complained that it "backed up" on them.

3. I managed to find a Mirafone F with 5 valves (180-5U) and this became my daily driver. Played tuba in a community orchestra on it for 4 years. I managed to be able to cover all the parts I needed. Just had to develop a long pedal range.

4. I bought a Boosey Eb 3+1 non-compensating tuba and it was OK, though I wasn't going to dump my Mirafone for it.

5. I got a CC tuba. 4 valve Weimar. Struggled for 2 years to play it and gave up. Sold it off to a friend who needed a tuba. He became the tuba player of my orchestra until he succumbed to cancer about 10 years later.

The short conclusion of the journey: Eb and F tubas are more "trombone player friendly". Or small bore BBb or CC.

[Doug Elliott]

That's typical. Eb is really easy to play, for a trombone player it slots in a much.more familiar way than a Bb. Plus, once you get familiar with Eb fingerings you can transfer that to playing alto trombone if you don't already.

[tbonesullivan]

Thanks for the insight, Bruce and Doug. I had a feeling my experience was typical. I do know a few players who can play all the varieties of Tuba without issue, but that doesn't seem to be me. The Eb just worked. It felt like a "big" euphonium, which the YEB-321 pretty much is. If only I lived in Europe, where Eb tubas are much more common. I really do like the "top action" form factor feeling.

[BGuttman]

I also want to mention a little anecdote. I was asked to fill in with the UNH (University of New Hampshire) Band for their commencement one year. I was joined by a player from the Air Force Band of Liberty based in Pease AFB. He had a Mirafone 184 BBb (the small one) and I had my F. The regular players in the band had Mirafone Kaisers (190). We two ringers blew away the two regulars. Size doesn't really matter.

[tbonesullivan]

I also want to mention a little anecdote. I was asked to fill in with the UNH (University of New Hampshire) Band for their commencement one year. I was joined by a player from the Air Force Band of Liberty based in Pease AFB. He had a Mirafone 184 BBb (the small one) and I had my F. The regular players in the band had Mirafone Kaisers (190). We two ringers blew away the two regulars. Size doesn't really matter.

I will say that I was able to play QUITE loud with the YEB-321, and It just played well. Also I've played with players on BIG F tubas, and they sounded great and had no trouble blending or with intonation. Of course that player is now with the 392nd Army Band, so he's definitely pro level.

It's just a shame though. The YBB-631 was REALLY comfortable to hold. Just setup perfectly for my size and shape.

[brtnats]

I’ve never gotten along with a BBb, but 15 minutes into playing a Conn 14J Eb that I bought off the forum, I had access to the whole range from 16vb to , including some VERY fine false tones connecting the first partial and pedal registers. I’m playing it with a Yamaha Yeo and considering messing around with a small shank Kellyburg just to see what happens.

For me as a doubler, Eb is where it’s at.

[SwissTbone]

I occasionally play tuba and, like you, tested a lot. Exept F tubas as those aren't readily available here.

For me it was clear: Eb tuba is the way to go. 4+1 setup. I loaned several of them and found the Bessons really easy to play. Don't take a lot of air, but CAN take it if you want. Sound good. Easy intonation.

[tbonesullivan]

I occasionally play tuba and, like you, tested a lot. Exept F tubas as those aren't readily available here.

For me it was clear: Eb tuba is the way to go. 4+1 setup. I loaned several of them and found the Bessons really easy to play. Don't take a lot of air, but CAN take it if you want. Sound good. Easy intonation.

Nice! Bessons are good, though rather hard to come by in the U.S. in many places. Yamahas pop up regularly, though not in Eb.

[greenbean]

I will have to disagree here. A large BBb tuba all the way! That is the sound you want! Immediate ease of playing is not the criterion to use, IMO.

[LeTromboniste]

I will have to disagree here. A large BBb tuba all the way! That is the sound you want! Immediate ease of playing is not the criterion to use, IMO.

That is very subjective. From a listener and trombonist's point of view (I double on quite a few instruments but not tuba) I personally much prefer the sound of an F bass tuba to a contrabass instrument, and between contrabasses the sound a C tuba to that of a BBb.

I find there's often too big a gap between the trombones and a contrabass tuba, and I've heard too many symphonic concerts where the tuba is either woofy and unclear or clear but overpowering, with nothing in between.

Add to that the ease of playing which I think is in fact an important factor when we're talking about doubling (and especially starting out at doubling), and to me the choice is obvious.

[tbonesullivan]

I will have to disagree here. A large BBb tuba all the way! That is the sound you want! Immediate ease of playing is not the criterion to use, IMO.

Well, true, but as a doubler I'm not going to have huge amounts of time to devote to getting the BBb airflow and sound concept working. With the Eb tubas I tried, it was pretty much immediate, even into the extreme low range.

I know, part of my brain is going "well that's a good price on a 3+1 compensating BBb horn and you should get it" but I'd rather pick up something I can use more immediately.

If it was the Yamaha YEB-631 instead, it would probably already be in my basement.

[Basbasun]

If you play in small ensembles like brass quintet the F tuba is a good choise, to read with F is easy, it is like playing F trombone or with the F attachment engaged on a modern bass. A large EEb tuba is usefull both in smaller and bigger groups. EEb tuba is often used in orchestras in English orchestras. Some of my former students duobble Bass trombone and BBb tuba, and doing a good job. I think EEb tuba could be easier to tenor trombonist. I did double on Basstrombone and BBb tuba some years my self,now I play EEb tuba. Often both tuba and trombone in the same music. A big BBb is really something else when played good. ThoughI meet some really good tubaists who played EEb on all music, like John Fletcher, then you do not wish for the BBb tuba.

[Vegasbound]

For me it's the EEb

[ssking2b]

These comments are all over the place. I find it hard to believe one can distinguish the sound of a CC tuba from that of a BBb tuba, but maybe so...it's immaterial. Why so many tuba players sound woofy and covered and not clear is because they have equipment that causes them to sound that way. Lack of overtones and loss of focus and center for the sake of the "dark" sound can happen on ANY key/size tuba, but becomes even more critical on the lower voiced tubas. Also, why play an Eb tuba, with 5 or 6 valves, and a bore size bigger than most 5/4 BBb tubas? that defeats the whole purpose the existence of Eb tubas.

IMHO - use what works for you and gets the desired sound! For me, like Green Bean, BBb tuba is the only way to go!

[Bach5G]

I’m totally confused. I need to start with “Tubas for Dummies”.

[Jimprindle]

One of the best tuba players in town uses an oversize Eb with valves that throw it into BBb and who knows where else. All Ebs are not the same.

I use a 3/4 size Weril BBb most of the time I am called for tuba, very similar to the same size Yamaha, plays about the same as the Yamaha and is a lot cheaper. Works fine for most concert gigs I have used it on.

The several dozen (somewhere between 100-200) road shows I have done of The Lion King requires a 4/4 CC tuba. I have borrowed (rented) from a friend every time. Tuba players avoid playing that show because most of it requires almost virtuoso bass trombone playing.

CC tubas are preferred by orchestral players not for the tone, but because they are easier to play in sharp keys and in the upper register. After playing full size BBb tubas for a long time, learning the CC for The Lion King I came to the conclusion that the CC was a lot easier to play.

[hyperbolica]

I think everyone has a different experience with tuba. There are so many factors to learn about tuba. Different keys, different valve types and number of valves, different shapes, bell sizes and shapes, bore sizes, bore profiles, receiver sizes, compensating vs non-compensating, left bell vs right bell, etc

I embarked on this tuba experiment with a lot of preconceptions. First, I thought I'd be able to use a euphonium to play the low notes because a friend of mine could do it. Turned out I really couldn't. Next, I thought air would be a huge problem on a big tuba, so I was trying to make an unreasonably small Eb do the job. Really, I was trying to replace a bass trombone with a small tuba, which in itself was probably a mistake.

I first tried to play a small BBb, but the bell was so close to my ear, I found it very disconcerting. Fingerings were ok, but maybe because of the bell position, I couldn't distinguish partials.

Next I tried a small Eb. It was very playable, although it took me weeks to get the fingerings. And I always had to play a couple of notes to get oriented on the harmonic series.

Next, I got a 4/4 BBb shaped kind of like a Miraphone 186 (tall smoke stack bell). It was big, but has a relatively small bore (0.759"). I think it's east european, maybe Bohland and Fuchs or Amati, and probably early 1900s, rotaries, clock springs, 18" bell. This is a horn that makes the most sense to me as a trombone player. I can get a decent sound on it, the fingerings are second nature. The sound is rather mouthpiece dependent, but it is most playable with a small Denis Wick mouthpiece.

I like the presence of the big horn, but the reasonable bore size isn't too intimidating. The valves need some work, but overall, everything works.

Like everything else, tuba is on a continuum between woofy and bright. Plus, it's very dependent on the player. I'm not trying to be the second coming of Sam Palafian or Roger Bobo, I'll be happy just to get the ooms as well as the pahs with a sound that isn't too nasal.

You have to play what makes sense to you, and you can only know that by playing several instruments. If you don't mind transposing, Eb is very playable to a trombone player. If you don't think it will screw with your ear, BBb will be much more intuitive to play.

[jpwell]

So I started back playing 8 years ago first tenor then bass. Took at least half a year to get use to the bigger horn. Then I got bit with the tuba bug. First had the smokestack Chinese BBb (it was awful ) then a small Miraphone EEb, then a big EEb 2141 then a 191 and finally a 1291 5v. At every step it took some time to grow into them. At this stage I am at ease with playing and switching between all the horns both from a lung and fingerings tho I sometimes throw in the wrong fingerings between Bb and Eb. I am also a retired fireman whose lungs were used pretty hard sucking smoke. On a good day I have 3 liters I make it work I just take ALOT of breaths. Mps wise I started with a 7b and now use a 32.6 mm hauser on BBb and a pt 65 on EEb. It took awhile to grow into these. I think you can play anything you set your mind too.

[tbonesullivan]

I currently play tenor and bass trombone, and the adjustment time between my various horns is MUCH less than it used to be. I can play my Bass and my .525 bore tenor interchangeably, and getting used to Alto and lead tenor only takes about a week.

I guess I was just surprised at the large difference in feel between the EB Yamaha and Eastman horns that I tried, and the YBB-631 I was looking at, even when I was not using the compensated side. I honestly don't think I have the patience/time to learn multiple keying systems, so a 3+1 horn like my Euphonium is just something I really take seriously. I may go back and get the 631, because I definitely did feel I was improving after an hour or so.

[tbonesullivan]

I’m totally confused. I need to start with “Tubas for Dummies”.

They ARE confusing. Not to mention, geographically the "preferred" type of tuba changes dramatically.

In the UK, pretty much the standard tuba is a 3+1 compensating Eb tuba, and there also is the Compensating BBb "Bass tuba", which is pretty much the same instrument blown up in size a bit. Brass bands are HUGE in the UK, so most of their tubas are geared towards that, even in orchestral use, from my understanding.

In the U.S. I think F and CC tubas are currently the most popular in Orchestra. In bands though mostly it's BBb Tubas. BIG ones.

Then you come up against whether front or top action is more popular, rotary valves vs piston valves, what size, what tunings are used on the various valves.

[Basbasun]

I guess you have listened to Philip Jones brass ensemble, John Fletcher played EEb both as a solo instrument and in orchester work. Here is some PJ ensemble, JF on EEb tuba of course. Many USA doubblers play all trombones and tuba, most often EEb. There is a good reason for that.
Good luck with your tuba hunt.

Some good music:

[tbonesullivan]

John Fletcher is truly something else. He was also using the smaller EEb tubas that were common at that time, and helped develop EEb tubas more conducive to orchestral playing. As an incredible player, he could bring a great sound out of even less than optimal equipment. If that BBb 3+1 is still around in a few weeks, I may revisit it, as somehow having a BBb tuba and an Eb sounds like a good solution. I don't think I'll need any more trombones.. possibly ever, unless the ones I have now break down.

[tbonesullivan]

Well, after playing on the Ybb-631 a bunch, I kinda bonded with it. Matt at Dillon gave me some good pointers, and I took it home with me. Now I begin the process in earnest of learning how to slow down my air stream.

[MrHCinDE]

I started on Euph and then picked up tuba a few years later, trombone years later. Like you, I began on a BBb 3+1, in my case a loaned Besson sovereign, but from what I can tell the YBB-631 looks pretty similar. I found it more intuitive to start on the BBb, I think for me the EEb was just too close to Euph.

If I haven't played tuba for a while, I have a lot harder time getting back used to BBb than EEb. When I was regularly playing BBb, I could switch to EEb without any problem. The other way round was more difficult. For me personally it seems BBb is more ungainly but once in practice I prefer the big sound of the BBb, even in symphony orchestra.

Here's an unsolicited suggestion:
I'd been playing in lessons and (youth) symphony orchestra and could play the notes more or less ok but I noticed a massive difference in sound when I started playing tuba in a British-style brass band. Other than test pieces, the BBb parts are not usually tecnically complex but do require a lot of playing long, low notes and more importantly playing in a section. Think about control of intonation, sound, breathing etc. If you end up sat next to a good BBb player and couple of good EEb tubists it is a great way of learning by doing with the extra motivation of playing in a group. Much more fun than sitting at home with a metronome and could also work in a concert band setting also, if you have a couple of tubas.

Enjoy your new instrument and good luck with the learning process!

[tbonesullivan]

There are some local brass bands, and that is one of the reasons I was particularly looking for a 3+1. Also, I like having good intonation, and having to pull a slide with my left hand on a front action horn was just gonna annoy me. I already have to deal with a slide all the time, so I wanted a tuba that for the most part just "works".

I talked Matt Walters about the recent trend of using "false tones" in the lower register, due to a lot of demands for low volume but quick attack on notes that use a lot of extra tubing/valves. If you can get a stable false tone that sounds halfway decent, a lot just go with it. It's interesting how the old tricks people used with the 3 valve tubas back in the old days are now coming back.

[Basbasun]

False tones on the low register. Yes those are very handy on all low brasses, they are good on many tubas,( some tubas does not work on those due to the profile of the bell.)
I play a 5 valve EEb, but still use false tones in some places.
As on trombone, they are very good for the chops if you find them on the horn. (not the same positions trombone/tuba though)

[brtnats]

Resurrecting this thread briefly in praise of the smaller Eb. I played 2 hours as the bass in a tiny little Oktoberfest-style band last weekend with my Conn 14J (smaller 3v Eb). It was a pure joy. I used a Yamaha Yeo mp (same as my bass trombone). False tones worked where they needed to work, high range worked where it needed to work. Instrumentation was 2 trumpets, 2 clarinets, trombone, and tuba. If you’re like me and you’d like a tuba “just in case,” but you know you’re not going to play it daily, I think an older Eb really has some value. I’m playing it at TubaChristmas next week, so we’ll see.


~B

[BGuttman]

For Tuba Christmas, take the 3rd part if you are playing a small Eb. Take it from somebody who's been there (1892 Conn Eb).

[tbonesullivan]

I've thought about picking up one of those three valve Eb tubas as well. There's a three valve compensating british tuba down at Dillon Music right now. It's actually in really good shape. Lacquered, but that's ok.

[JohnL]

I'll put in a plug for the Yamaha YBB-10x series. Yes, they're small and only have three valves, but they're easy to play and sound surprisingly good. I prefer the 103 (front action), but that's personal taste.

[Molefsky]

I came across a Boosey & Hawkes 3+1 Imperial (compensating vintage pro horn). Until that point I thought I couldn't play tuba. That thing just played for me. After three or four months on it I got a hold of a Couesnon student BBb (three valve) and it played just fine for me. I think Eb was an effective gateway drug.

[marccromme]

I am amateur regularly playing bass bone and doubling on Eb tuba, having both a YEB-321 for Street gigs and a 5valve MW 5/4 Eb tuba for brass band, both uncompensated. I love them, they slot great and sing.

Before I played a vintage Besson 3+1 compensated new standard. I do prefer 15 to 17 inch bells on Eb instruments, due to improved intonation, clarity, and response. I tried several 19 inch bell Eb tubas, sovereign, Yamaha, miraphone, but for me uncompensated 5v is it, they just sing.

19 inch bell Eb do often intonate low in high range and high in low range, due to the over conicity compared to 17 or 16 inch bells, which makes you bending tones with the lip. Same problem with some 6/4 F tubas, if bore is not large enough.

There is also a very nice sovereign front action compensated Eb with smaller bell, and a Wilson 5v which I like very much.

In addition I own a 4/4/ Cerveny BB tuba, it's low range is comparable with my Eb, but high range sucks. For all normal purposes I prefer the Eb.

Don't make a fuss about fingerings compensated or 5v, and pitches F, Eb, C or Bb, you brain figures it out quite fast, no matter what you choose.

I think the most important things a tuba should satisfy is great intonation, good slotting, easy singing tone with plenty of overtones, and great response. You really don't want to bend all tones up and down,this is counterproductive for a great sound, especially for a trombonist used to center every note.

And 3 valvers are IMHO a no go, too much bending or slide riding required on 1+3 and 1+2+3 combinations. 3v compensated or 4v are preferred, 3+1 compensated or 5v ideal due to well defined extended lower range , better intonation and alternate fingerings.

But then, these are only my 5 cent wisdom, others do prefer otherwise. Try plenty of models with a tuner and decide yourself.

[tbonesullivan]

I've found a lot of people have had really good luck with Eb tubas and doubling from trombone.

So far, the tuba has been a gradual improvement "slope" I guess. BBb tubas are just a different beast than Eb, which is like a big Euphonium.

[dershem]

I have an old Conn EEb that works fine for what I need it for - mostly brass quintets, big band, dixieland and the like. When it gets to the point where you really need a TUBA player, hire a specialist.

[modelerdc]

Add me to the list of trombone players who like doubling on the E flat tuba. I have a Boosey 3+1 19inch bell compensator. Easy to play a point and shoot tuba. As good a choice as any if you have only one tuba. I find it's a larger transition to CC or BBb. F is too small and too many low range challenges for use as an only tuba. Also I'm one of those who find that it's just easier to play pistion tubas than many rotaries-piston tubas just seem to center and respond better while many rotary tubas you have to put in some extra effort to overcome a built in delay! Yes those who advocate a large BBb or CC for large ensembles are correct, the large sonorities these instruments make give the broad foundation in large groups, but for typical quintets, most musicals, church gigs, jazz, etc. the E flat works perfectly. Most of us will own only one tuba, but remember there are good reasons that tuba players will have more than one.

[tbonesullivan]

Add me to the list of trombone players who like doubling on the E flat tuba. I have a Boosey 3+1 19inch bell compensator. Easy to play a point and shoot tuba. As good a choice as any if you have only one tuba. I find it's a larger transition to CC or BBb. F is too small and too many low range challenges for use as an only tuba. Also I'm one of those who find that it's just easier to play pistion tubas than many rotaries-piston tubas just seem to center and respond better while many rotary tubas you have to put in some extra effort to overcome a built in delay! Yes those who advocate a large BBb or CC for large ensembles are correct, the large sonorities these instruments make give the broad foundation in large groups, but for typical quintets, most musicals, church gigs, jazz, etc. the E flat works perfectly. Most of us will own only one tuba, but remember there are good reasons that tuba players will have more than one.

Even for a Community Orchestra, an Eb would be fine. They don't have the string power to really match up to a BBb or CC. Especially if it's one with a 19 inch bell. I have heard though that the 19 inch bell can lack some of the focus that the 17 bell versions do.

Anyway, I think I'm gonna keep plugging along with the BBb 3+1 compensator, which has a 17 inch bell. If after another month or two I still can't center notes at all, I'll look into trading it in for an Eb 3+1 compensator.