Yamaha YSL-448G vs YSL-648R

[BoneDad]

Other than the obvious difference of one having a gold brass bell and the other having a rose brass bell, is there any difference between the two?

[Matt K]

The 600 series are the 'pro' line up of Yamaha horns. To a large extent these horns have nicer trim, which is a nice-to-have but doesn't really affect the playability. The 648 is a 'clone' of the Conn 88 and plays relatively close to that. The 448 is a Yamaha design which isn't to say it's bad but the 400 series generally have heavier bells which can be harder to play on, or at least can be in my experience. I have a 646 bell which I suspect is similar to the 648 bell albeit in red brass and it's a very easy blow. May well be that the 648 is a two-piece bell but given that it's an orlder horn, Yamaha doesn't have that info available. The 448 is a one-piece bell.

There are actually many other differences but they're all part of the overall package... the slide crook & leadpipe are different, or at least looking at images they appear to be so. The 648 is narrower and single radius... I think the 448 is dual radius and wider but I haven't seen one in awhile. The 648 leadpipe is probably going to be more open and the 448 more compact since it's for students and complementing a heavy bell. Neither of those are worse, but they are different. The valve wraps are different as well, though I don't put too much of an emphasis on that. One is 'semi-closed' wrap the other is 'closed wrap'.

YMMV, some players prefer the heavier so if you can try both, give them both a shot and see which one you prefer. If you're buying blind though, I'd personally go for the 648.

[Kdanielsen]

I had the opportunity to test the 400 level vs the 600 level of .525 bore (with valve), both brand new out of the box. The difference was night and day. The 600 felt totally different. Responded much faster, better dynamic range, incredible valve, and even a better case. The price between the two are so close I dont see any reason not to get the 600. If nothing else, it’ll have higher resale value.

[greenbean]

To clarify... the early 648 had a "closed wrap" and the later version had the usual "semi-open wrap" that most Yamahas have today.

And I wish people would stop claiming that the early 648 was a clone of an 88H. Not true.

[BGuttman]

Actually, I think it was the 643 that looked like the 88H. Also a very good horn.

Bonedad, if the Band Director thinks the kids should have Yamaha 448s, almost all the Yamaha F-attachment trombones use the same wrap. You could probably get away with any of the following:

Medium bore: 646, 684, 640
Large bore: 648, 682, 620.
And the small bore 356.

Some of the Xenos have open wrap and will not look like a 448, but they are exceptional horns. Generally a bit much for a beginner to handle, though.

I agree with what has been stated in other threads: if the BD demands all the kids play the same instrument, he should provide them.

[Matt K]

I mean... semantically it might not be an exact copy but the old one looks nearly identical to an 88 and the ones that I've played are very similar to the Conn. Technically the Blessing 88 isn't a copy of the Conn 88 either depending on how you're defining it. In this context, neither point fundamentally change the point that the 448 is distinct from the 648 in ways that resemble a Conn 88. Really all of the 64x Yamahas actually if I'm not mistaken. They all have a lighter weight, 2 piece bell from what I can find. The 44x series are heavier, one-piece bells. Copy or otherwise.

[BoneDad]

Bonedad, if the Band Director thinks the kids should have Yamaha 448s, almost all the Yamaha F-attachment trombones use the same wrap. You could probably get away with any of the following:

Medium bore: 646, 684, 640
Large bore: 648, 682, 620.
And the small bore 356.

We found a really good deal on an older 648R and to my un-trained eyes it looked very similar to the 448. I think it's the one we're going to go with. It should make the band director happy and it will hopefully retain its value a bit better should he want to upgrade to a Xeno in high school or college.

Is there an advantage to obtaining an inexpensive small or medium bore for him to practice on at home, or would that do more damage than good?

[BGuttman]

If he plays in jazz band he might find a small bore makes it easier to play a higher part like 1st or 2nd trombone. I'd also hate to take a good trombone out on the marching field -- that's where a "beater" is really handy.

If he's using an f-attachment at school practicing without one at home can be a disadvantage.

Although some teachers will disable the F-attachment to force the student to get familiar with the "outer" positions.

[BoneDad]

Really all of the 64x Yamahas actually if I'm not mistaken. They all have a lighter weight, 2 piece bell from what I can find. The 44x series are heavier, one-piece bells. Copy or otherwise.

I spent the day researching this and ended up getting a lot of conflicting information on the bell construction. Some sites say the 448 is just a rebadged 648. Others said the 648R has a one-piece bell. Then others have said it is a 2-piece bell. Unfortunately, I think the 648 was retired before much information was able to make its way onto the Internet. It does seem possible that the Rose brass version may have had a different bell construction than other 648's, which would further muddy the waters.

[BoneDad]

If he's using an f-attachment at school practicing without one at home can be a disadvantage.

That's a good point! I'll see if there aren't some reasonably priced older trombones for practice/marching.

[Matt K]

Really all of the 64x Yamahas actually if I'm not mistaken. They all have a lighter weight, 2 piece bell from what I can find. The 44x series are heavier, one-piece bells. Copy or otherwise.

I spent the day researching this and ended up getting a lot of conflicting information on the bell construction. Some sites say the 448 is just a rebadged 648. Others said the 648R has a one-piece bell. Then others have said it is a 2-piece bell. Unfortunately, I think the 648 was retired before much information was able to make its way onto the Internet. It does seem possible that the Rose brass version may have had a different bell construction than other 648's, which would further muddy the waters.

That's correct, the 648 was released in the 1970s and then a later, separate model was released in the 90s. Yamaha didn't have much of a web presence in the 90s either so neither horn has much in the way of official information. I would be surprised if either 648 had a one-piece bell though. They're more difficult to make and generally aren't used on horns with that profile.

This is another place where semantics come into play and there's a lot of hearsay that has gotten passed down (which is the aforementioned discussion about the 648 not being a copy of an 88). Similarly, horns that look similar have been called everything from a 'clone' to 'rebadged' etc. despite having only nominal overlap in design. The Yamaha horns in particular often share a considerable amount of features which is nothing to mention how they almost exclusively have a distinctive 'semi-closed wrap' F attachment with very subtle differences between them.

For example, my YSL356 looks like the YSL646 but are quite different. Mine is a 500/525 with an 8" bell & yellow tuning slide. The 646 (or at least mine) has a gold tuning slide, very thin one-piece gold brass bell and a 525 single bore slide. The tubing on the F attachment also seems to be gold brass or have a gold tint to the lacquer. Is the 356 a copy of that? Or a rebadged version? I think there's less of an argument for that than there is that the original 648 is a copy of the 88. This is despite the 646 and 356 actually sharing a fair number of parts in the catalogue if you wanted to order new ones, such as the cork barrels, some of the tubing, and the yellow version of the 646 tuning slide even.

[sirisobhakya]

Only Yamaha’s 800 series horns (and a few 600 models) have one-piece bell. In any case, the 400 would have a 2-piece bell.

[GabrielRice]

Really all of the 64x Yamahas actually if I'm not mistaken. They all have a lighter weight, 2 piece bell from what I can find. The 44x series are heavier, one-piece bells. Copy or otherwise.

I spent the day researching this and ended up getting a lot of conflicting information on the bell construction. Some sites say the 448 is just a rebadged 648. Others said the 648R has a one-piece bell. Then others have said it is a 2-piece bell. Unfortunately, I think the 648 was retired before much information was able to make its way onto the Internet. It does seem possible that the Rose brass version may have had a different bell construction than other 648's, which would further muddy the waters.

Don't worry about it. I say this as a confirmed gearhead. You pretty much can't go wrong with those Yamaha models, as long as they haven't sustained serious damage. If you want to go with the 648R over the 400 series, do it. If it's used I would recommend having a qualified repair tech give it a once-over to make sure all the mechanics work and the slide is aligned well. That will probably add between 100 and 200 dollars to the cost of the horn, depending on what it needs.

[Matt K]

Only Yamaha’s 800 series horns (and a few 600 models) have one-piece bell. In any case, the 400 would have a 2-piece bell.

Perhaps Yamaha's website is incorrect? It looks like all current production 400 series are one-piece according to it.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical ... oduct-tabs

	YSL-446G	YSL-448G
Specifications
Level	Intermediate Tenor	Intermediate Tenor
Key of	Bb / F	Bb / F
Bore	"ML: 0.525"""	"L: 0.547"""
Bell Diameter	"8-1/2"""	"8 1/2"""
Shank	Medium	Large
Leadpipe	Yellow brass; Fixed	Yellow Brass; Fixed
Body Material	Yellow brass	Yellow Brass
Bell Material	Gold brass; One-piece	Gold Brass; One-piece
Weight	Standard	Standard
Finish	Clear lacquer	Clear Lacquer
Inner Slide	Chrome-plated nickel silver; Drawn	Chrome-plated nickel silver; Drawn
Outer Slide	Brass; Drawn; One-piece	Brass; Drawn; One-piece
Mouthpiece	48	L48
Features	F-attachment	F-attachment
Pistons/Rotors	Hand lapped; String linkage	Hand lapped; String linkage
Options	N/A	-

	YSL-445G	YSL-447G
Specifications
Level	Intermediate Tenor	Intermediate Tenor
Key	Bb	Bb
Bore	"ML: 0.525"""	"L: 0.547"""
Bell Diameter	"8 1/2"""	"8-1/2"""
Shank	Medium	Large
Leadpipe	Yellow Brass; Fixed	Yellow brass; Fixed
Body Material	Yellow Brass	Yellow brass
Bell Material	Yellow Brass; One-piece	Gold brass; One-piece
Weight	Standard	Standard
Finish	Clear Lacquer	Clear lacquer
Inner Slide	Chrome-plated nickel silver; Drawn	Chrome-plated nickel silver; Drawn
Outer Slide	Brass; Drawn; One-piece	Brass; Drawn; One-piece
Mouthpiece	48	L48
Features	Balance Weight	Balance weight
Pistons/Rotors	N/A	N/A
Options	N/A	N/A

[Mamaposaune]

Are the current intermediate Yamahas made in China like the 354's? If so when did they stop making them in Japan? I have an older 446G, made in Japan, and I think it is a really good little horn. Easier to play than my 36, but doesn't have the same dark, rich tone quality. Much better and closer to a pro horn than the Bach Omegas, IMO.

[Matt K]

Are the current intermediate Yamahas made in China like the 354's? If so when did they stop making them in Japan? I have an older 446G, made in Japan, and I think it is a really good little horn. Easier to play than my 36, but doesn't have the same dark, rich tone quality. Much better and closer to a pro horn than the Bach Omegas, IMO.

I don't personally know but it would seem that they have their own factory or at least high enough QC that I really haven't been able to tell on any of the 354s I've ever played and I've had a lot of students with them.

[brtnats]

I’ve got a 448 in my classroom. I’ll check Monday, but I’m fairly sure it’s a 1-piece bell.

[Posaunus]

Can you – or almost anyone else – tell the difference in sound between a trombone with a one-piece bell vs. one with a two-piece bell?

In my mind, this design / manufacturing detail is down in the noise level compared to the condition and functionality of a used trombone. More important to me:
• Does it sound the way you want it to?
• Does it play in tune?
• Is the slide smooth?
• Does the valve work smoothly and silently?
• Is its appearance acceptable to you?
• Is the price acceptable to you?

[greenbean]

I have never been able to tell the difference. I just don't think it matters.

[greenbean]

Fun Fact: One of my B&S tubas has a one-piece bell!

[BGuttman]

A one-piece bell is not inherently better than a two-piece bell. I have bones of both types and some of the best ones I have are 2 piece, as are some of the worst.

[sirisobhakya]

Strange. The catalogue (in Japanese, though) states that the 400 series has two-piece bell.

But I think the website should be more credible.

[Matt K]

Can you – or almost anyone else – tell the difference in sound between a trombone with a one-piece bell vs. one with a two-piece bell?

In my mind, this design / manufacturing detail is down in the noise level compared to the condition and functionality of a used trombone. More important to me:
• Does it sound the way you want it to?
• Does it play in tune?
• Is the slide smooth?
• Does the valve work smoothly and silently?
• Is its appearance acceptable to you?
• Is the price acceptable to you?

I agree; a horn in great condition (internally at least) almost always wins out in my experience. Buying blind, you often can't answer any of these questions, other than that of price. So my assumption is that you're comparing horns of similar conditions that can possibly be repaired; fortunately, Yamaha parts are among the easiest to get your hands on and for a reasonable price so this is often less a consideration than buying something with more expensive or limited repair parts availability.

That said, yes, in my experience, the difference in construction is one of the less subtle changes that can be made about a trombone. More noticeable than bell material certainly, at least for me. Being able to compare them is somewhat limited because when they're put on fixed horns, the rest of the horn is setup, unsurprisingly, to play well with one-piece bells and the ability to try both types is somewhat limited to players who have a Shires (as they offer 1-piece bells as an option in their 5 lineup) or to people who have had, say, a Bach bell mounted to another system. There's also - usually - more variability in one piece bells because of the way they are spun. (You'll notice that say, Shires Chicago bells vary from being slightly larger than 8.5" to slightly less than 9".)

The bells are different enough that M&W do not cut 1-piece bells for screwbell conversion:

I've lost count of the number of bells I've cut (including french horn and trombone). Honestly, I would be wary of cutting a Bach bell. In our experience, 1 piece bells do not benefit from having it done, and can become "stiff" in response. 2 piece bells are much more "accepting" of the change, with little to no disadvantage in playability. In fact we (M&W) do not offer screw bells on 1 piece flares for this reason.

As Bruce mentioned, neither is better than the other, just different. The OP asked if there was an actual difference between these horns other than cosmetics and I think quite clearly the answer to that is "Yes" but that doesn't mean that one is better than the other. Just that there is a difference. And the design elements likely reflect the choice of bells because that is often the case (e.g. one piece bells often have more centered leadpipes like on the Bach 42).

Strange. The catalogue (in Japanese, though) states that the 400 series has two-piece bell.

But I think the website should be more credible.

It's very possible the Japanese horns are two-piece bells. Yamaha models are specific to region, afterall. The 356R with a red bell and a nickel slide were sold from what I can tell, only in Europe; I've been passively looking for one for awhile for that nickel slide but I think I've only seen one come up maybe in a year that has the nickel version of the slide and they don't sell the slide parts here in the US!

[tbonesullivan]

With Yamaha, the currently 600 series and all of the lower ones use welded bell seams, which makes it pretty much impossible to tell by sight if it is a one or two piece bell. I am trying to remember if the Pre-Xeno 684 had a brazed or welded bell. I'm pretty sure it did have a one piece bell.

Edwards and Rath, as far as I know, only make two piece bells. I

[brtnats]

I’ve got a 448 in my classroom. I’ll check Monday, but I’m fairly sure it’s a 1-piece bell.

Looks like my 448 is a one piece, gold brass bell. If it’s 2 pieces, the seam lines are absolutely invisible.

[tbonesullivan]

Looks like my 448 is a one piece, gold brass bell. If it’s 2 pieces, the seam lines are absolutely invisible.

My 640 is a two piece bell, and there is no seam whatsoever. Welding really makes the seam... SEAMLESS. That was a horrible pun. You also won't see any seam running down the length of the bell either. Even one piece brazed bells will have seams. Welded bells just don't have any you can see.

[BoneDad]

I wanted to give an update on my son's trombone. We purchased the YSL-648R and over the past several years my son has loved it. The band director who wanted everyone to buy the YSL-448 left the following year (he was not very happy we didn't go with his recommendation but there was literally nothing he could do after we had bought it) and the new band director uses my son's trombone any time he is playing a section as an example for the trombone section. As my son gains experience, he can see differences in his trombone vs the others in band and feels like it has a better tone and simply plays better. Whether that is all in his head or not doesn't matter, but it does give him confidence in playing.

Thank you all for the information that helped me make this decision. We got the trombone for less than half of what the new 448 trombones cost and it is a gorgeous instrument. I had asked Yamaha for any information it had on the YSL-648R and although the response came after we purchased our instrument, it might be helpful to someone else looking for it:

Thank you for your inquiry.
The YSL-648R was a professional trombone model manufactured from 1994-1998. It features a two-piece, red-brass bell and nickel-silver outer slide, plus a lacquer finish and 0.547" bore.
We hope this helps! Feel free to contact us again if you have any other questions or concerns.

Best,
Emma
Yamaha Corporation of America