Problem with initial attack

[mickael57280]

Hi, I have developped a problem with my initial attack.
My tongue lock up and can't release at all.

I occur mostly when it is no rythmic context or when the tempo is slow.

The only trick that I found to fake myself is that I release my air before letting my tongue come in real quick. (Ah Tah).

Another thing I realize is that it occur when I take too much time to breath in.
When I play something at 100 bpm I breath in on one beat but if I play something at 65 bpm and breath in on one beat I lock up, if I take one half beat it's much better.

If someone have suggestion.

[Savio]

Hi, I have developped a problem with my initial attack.
My tongue lock up and can't release at all.

I occur mostly when it is no rythmic context or when the tempo is slow.

The only trick that I found to fake myself is that I release my air before letting my tongue come in real quick. (Ah Tah).

Another thing I realize is that it occur when I take too much time to breath in.
When I play something at 100 bpm I breath in on one beat but if I play something at 65 bpm and breath in on one beat I lock up, if I take one half beat it's much better.

If someone have suggestion.

I dont know but its a lot about synchronize air and tongue. Make the air go in and out in one movement. Dont hold the air inside when you take a breath. Make the breathing in tempo. In slow tempo make the "inner metronome" in eights.
Leif

[baileyman]

TTF member saluting advocated playing your preparation as part of the music. That is, it takes time to raise the horn, form your chops, take abreast, etc., so play that dance in time before the note starts.

Seems pretty good.

[Doug Elliott]

Spend a month or two using only air to start notes. No tongue for any initial attacks.

There's more related stuff that I teach in Skype lessons, but that alone would be a good start toward fixing it.

[mickael57280]

Thank you, only use air for attack work perfectly but everytime I introduce the tongue it mess up all.

What I found weird too is that it work perfectly if I full exhale before the inhale for the initial attack. It allow me to take a big relaxed breath and generally I don't freeze.

If I don't do this it's like I try to take a breath over my natural inhalation breath and not so much air enter my lungs because I'm already full.
Don't know if I'm clear.

[Pre59]

100% on the air notes. Also you could try tonguing a short note without a deep breath, and then bit by bit increasing the air intake? To clarify, don't take the deeper breath that you would normally take to play at this stage.

[mickael57280]

What do you mean when you said 100% air notes ?

[Pre59]

What do you mean when you said 100% air notes ?

I was agreeing with Doug that practicing air attacks is a beneficial technique.

[mickael57280]

Ok thanks

[baileyman]

TTF member saluting advocated playing your preparation as part of the music. That is, it takes time to raise the horn, form your chops, take abreast, etc., so play that dance in time before the note starts.

Seems pretty good.

sabutin

[baileyman]

Thank you, only use air for attack work perfectly but everytime I introduce the tongue it mess up all.

...

Ah. Well, tongue can disturb the pitch of the mouth and thus there comes a conflict with the pitch of the horn. It is very worthwhile finding new tongue motions that do not disturb pitch.

Fontana described the tongue bumping a stream of water from a hose, which seems a good thing to imagine.

[mickael57280]

Making short notes without taking a breath work fine.
Allo kind of weird things work fine except the right thing.

Breathing thru my nose and it work fine, letting the air go before my tongue work fine ( Ah Tah), emptying my lungs before taking a breath work fine.

Can a mouth too open for breathing can be the problem?

I can do note attack up to high Bb so my embouchure and my air are not the problem, it's more like my tongue disrupt something in the process.

The thing that I don't understand is when attacking without the tongue and can breath in slow and release the air very slow too and the sound is big, round full.

When I add the tongue it's like I can breath the same, I must make it faster and the sound is more stained.

[VJOFan]

You may want to check this https://www.trombone.org/articles/view.php?id=154 out.

It is about coordinating your bodily movements. I can have a sticky first attack too, so I often do the “six notes” with articulations reverse of how it is described in the article. (Breath, soft, firm as opposed to firm, soft, breath.)

The “foot tapping” can be as little as a wiggling toe. It’s just important to be feeling the pulse over anything else.

[Doug Elliott]

Thank you, only use air for attack work perfectly but everytime I introduce the tongue it mess up all.

What I found weird too is that it work perfectly if I full exhale before the inhale for the initial attack. It allow me to take a big relaxed breath and generally I don't freeze.

If I don't do this it's like I try to take a breath over my natural inhalation breath and not so much air enter my lungs because I'm already full.
Don't know if I'm clear.

Like I said, there's LOTS more related stuff that I teach in Skype lessons. I can't guess everything without actually seeing you play.

I'm suggesting that you spend an extended amount of time on air attacks.

But I can give much more specific advice in an individual lesson.

[mickael57280]

Ok so I think I will follow your advice Doug.

So air attack on all initial attack even on those where I have no problem?

[Doug Elliott]

Yes

[MBurner]

Not to presume too much, but it sounds like Valsalva. As someone who’s had it, air attacks are the first step in fixing the issue. I had a lesson with Mr. Elliot that helped a great deal, and would recommend getting his thoughts.
Feel free to pm or email me, as I had a 3 year battle with this, and successfully got out of the hole.
Good luck.

[mickael57280]

Hi, sound very strange but I discovered that when I tongue other than my initial attack I tongue on my upper lip (through my teeth) and the only time when I tongue on my gum is when I freeze on the initial attack.

[timothy42b]

Hi, sound very strange but I discovered that when I tongue other than my initial attack I tongue on my upper lip (through my teeth) and the only time when I tongue on my gum is when I freeze on the initial attack.

Then you really need to get help from someone who can see you play, either in person or Skype. It's hard to be consistent if you sometimes tongue one way and sometimes another. I have a theory about why people tongue between their teeth but I think it will confuse you further. Anyway, that tonguing is probably holding you back from progressing. Doug does Skype, it's worth a try.

[mickael57280]

Hi, after a 10 days vacation away from the horn, I started fresh and laid back and it's a little bit better, but funny that after seen YouTube videos, I noticed that both Arturo Sandoval, Roy Hargrove and Scott Whitfield use air attack when they warm up, is there any reason?

[imsevimse]

Arturo Sandoval, Roy Hargrove and Scott Whitfield use air attack when they warm up, is there any reason?

The air starts the sound not the tongue, that's why.

It's good you are making progress. This problem is common and many good players have had this problem. I got this problem too when I studied at the Royal Academy of Music in Stockholm. How to solve this?

There are different approaches. Since we don't know you and have not seen or heard you play we don't know the whole picture. I have to answer based on what solved my problem and what I needed more to do to completely solve this. My background was that most things in my playing was working but not fully developed.

I noticed I only had the problem on the very first attack in a piece. It did not happen after a short pause. It happened again after a longer pause when the musical flow was interrupted. It never happened if someone else counted before the music starts like when you play in a big band. I therefore understood it was all mental.

I solved this by thinking the piece had already started. I sang the first two bars in my head to prepare. This started the flow and then imagined there was a repeat. On the repeat I started to play. This gave me the right character of the piece and the flow was turned on. It was something I came up with myself and it actually worked, but I soon realized this is not possible when you play with a conductor because then you never know when the conductor decides to move his baton. This was therefore only a part of the solution.

My real problem was I bottled up the air behind my teeth with the tongue and that the air was then locked by the tongue. The tongue was cought in between the air and the teeth. The removal became troublesome the same way you could use force to prevent a pop when you open a bottle of champagne. The air want to push the kork but you prevent the release to become slow, tense and not very effective. If you want a pop and fast air you do not do that. You need a gentle release with nothing to hold you back. You need to free the air to get your lips to start vibrate and get to the instant sound with nothing to block the air or disturb the attack.

The solution:

Do not put the tongue in position until just as the attack will happen. You fill the lungs but you do not bottle up the air. You focus on removing the tongue instead of putting it there. If you focus only on the remove it may be sufficient and be the gentle touch you need. This also solve the problem with the conductor because you already have the air in your lungs and you are prepared and can start the note in an instant as he decides with his baton.

You can work on the start without the tongue on the Caruso studies. That's a better way to get the flow going than an imaginary repeat. Check out how to do the "six notes" studies. There are videos by hornplayer/teacher Julia Landsman on youTube where she teaches this.

Good luck!

/Tom

[trombonebuster]

I struggled with this exact same issue for about 6 years before finding a solution. I took lessons with many great teachers but it's an issue that you wouldn't understand or know how to fix unless it's happened to you.

Everything that people have been saying thus far is correct but knowing these things and actually doing them are two separate things. My problem was that I had subconsciously gotten the sensation of blowing and tonguing intertwined to the point that the tongue wouldn't release the air unless they were perfectly coordinated with a metronome. Remember a few things during your practice and eventually you'll figure it out

1. Don't let any air build up behind the tongue.
2. Try not to think about the tongue. Just say Too or Doo letting the tongue strike behind the teeth and IMMEDIATELY fall away (blown out of the way by the air)
3. Another great trick that works for me is to try starting a note at a solid Forte but tongue as if you are playing pp.

I was completely desperate when this was happening to me . I would drive/fly for hours to get to orchestra auditions only to go on stage and not be able to get the first note out. I sincerely hope that this advice can prevent that from happening to you or anyone else struggling with this .

[Wilktone]

Can a mouth too open for breathing can be the problem?

I haven't watched you play, so I don't know if it's related to your problem, but a hesitation in an attack can definitely be related to opening the mouth to take a breath and then having to reset everything on the initial attack.

Depending on how you're playing already, practicing by timing things in might be just what you need - or you might just get better at playing wrong and still need to make a correction. When you can, it would be a good idea to take a lesson.

Dave

[afugate]

Can a mouth too open for breathing can be the problem?

I haven't watched you play, so I don't know if it's related to your problem, but a hesitation in an attack can definitely be related to opening the mouth to take a breath and then having to reset everything on the initial attack.

Depending on how you're playing already, practicing by timing things in might be just what you need - or you might just get better at playing wrong and still need to make a correction. When you can, it would be a good idea to take a lesson.

Dave

This was part of my own response problem. At times it still is, when I slip back into a lifetime of old habits.

At least I know enough now to be aware and look for it when I'm having response issues.

--Andy in OKC

[harrisonreed]

The tongue position needs to be set for the register being played, specifically the back of the tongue and the arch. If the player has the mouth too open (OP questioned this), they won't be able to articulate and set the jaw/tongue for the note they are going for all at the same time. The articulation needs to come out from a tongue/jaw/pivot already set up for the register.

How about if you try and slur some octaves, using the back of your tongue to change the octave. Raise it up to change registers. Then at some point during this practice, add in an articulation when you change the octave. You won't be able to put the tongue in a bad position because it is already in action, so to speak.