Leadpipe King 3B

[Jmac]

I just got an old 3b from the 50’s and the leadpipe seems to be slightly out of round. I have to give the mouthpiece a good push to make sure it’s sealed. Apparently I may need a new leadpipe. If I do is the stock $30 one from King the way to go or is it worth buying an aftermarket one? I’ve read H4 I think or maybe Brass.....something makes one. They look to be in the $100 range which seems fine as I do like the horn. Thanks

[harrisonreed]

Check out Brass Ark or maybe Kanstul f they still exist.

[davetrombizzle]

Kanstul H8 if you can find one. I put one in my 3B over a decade ago and it's been in there ever since.

Also Brass Ark makes a 32H style leadpipe in .508" size. I haven't tried it, but their craftsmanship is excellent.

[JLivi]

I've been curious about lead pipes for my 3b as well. I have zero knowledge of lead pipes, as I've been using, what I assume, is the stock King 3b lead pipe for the past 15 years. This might warrant a separate thread. Sorry for possibly taking this one over.

- Is it worth messing around with lead pipes? Is it a slippery slope?
- How do I know which one to get? Trial and error?
- Should I look to convert my lead pipe into a push down or threaded system?
- What can I expect from different lead pipes?

My issues with the 3b is that my lower range isn't as easy to play as I'd like to be. I can get the notes out fine, but when I really move the air it begins to close in on me. This could just be the fact that this is a small bore horn.

[Jmac]

I've been curious about lead pipes for my 3b as well. I have zero knowledge of lead pipes, as I've been using, what I assume, is the stock King 3b lead pipe for the past 15 years. This might warrant a separate thread. Sorry for possibly taking this one over.

- Is it worth messing around with lead pipes? Is it a slippery slope?
- How do I know which one to get? Trial and error?
- Should I look to convert my lead pipe into a push down or threaded system?
- What can I expect from different lead pipes?

My issues with the 3b is that my lower range isn't as easy to play as I'd like to be. I can get the notes out fine, but when I really move the air it begins to close in on me. This could just be the fact that this is a small bore horn.

I’m looking for the same answers so no need to start a new thread.

[Matt K]

- Is it worth messing around with lead pipes? Is it a slippery slope?

This is a little bit subjective. The slope is only as slippery as you let it be. That said, you could exhaust your options with that bore size much more quickly than 547 or 562. There are myriad options for those but 508 is slightly more limited. Shires has 6 sizes and 4 materials, Edwards just 3 sizes and I believe only yellow brass?, Brassark offers one size in a few different materials, Rath are technically a little too large (.510) but they wouldn't be difficult to buff down .002". You might be able to get your hands on a used Kanstul H8. And... there's not a whole lot more out there. That all said, unlike larger bores, the vast, vast, vast majority of small bore players use Yellow brass, so that helps limit your options.

- How do I know which one to get? Trial and error?

Trial & error or you have something that you'd like to be improved and you move towards that goal. The boutique manufacturers basically have a spectrum that goes from '1' to '3'. Usually '1' means the most 'centered' pipe, which means clarity and ease of articulation at the expense of some of the 'halo' or 'broadness' of sound. The '3' is the other extreme which is the most 'open' at the expense of some clarity of articulation. The '3' side of the spectrum means the platform that the notes 'land on' is really wide meaning that you have lots of color and flexibility with the note but it's harder to steer. Difficult to put into words but you'd immediately notice if you experienced it.

That all said, the '2' in any of these systems is the most popular as they tend to strike a nice balance between the two extremes. The number specifies the general taper but you still need an appropriate bore size, so a Shires 2 that is meant for a 547 horn won't fit in a 508 horn. You'd need a #2 that is specifically for the 508, which in their nomenclature is a T08 2. I've put several Shires #2 in other makers horns and have never not been pleased with the result. That includes a King 3BF that I had prior to me making it a 500/508 bore, incidentally.

So with that said, then there are other considerations other than the inside taper... the length and the material have some influence on sound. Short pipes tend to be more 'open' and longer pipes more towards the 'centered' so you can have a short #3 and a long #1 and they balance the pipe out subtly in the other direction, etc.Gold brass is 'warmer'. Nickel is 'brighter' or perhaps more 'brilliant'. Sterling silver is often described as 'dense.' Then there is construction... drawn is the most common but seamed exists as well. Brassark describes this distinction well:

Special seamed leadpipes are now available in yellow brass, rose brass, copper, sterling silver and nickel silver. These are made through a fabrication process developed by Brad and myself, rolling and shaping a flat piece of material and brazing together, like a bell flare, to form a leadpipe with the correct taper. The result gives a more nuanced character and depending on the material can yield a result that traditional drawn pipes don't provide. A few notable traits we've found: notes tend to center better, hold up dynamially better and offer more tactile feedback on your embouchure which in turn gives you more control of your core sound with consitent slotting and nuance for color and tone.

They also offer copper pipes which they describe as:

Copper is our most popular seamed material and gives warmth and color while still projecting and creating core. The trombone response is much more personal and you're able to create colors and timbres that can be more difficult to achieve on stock pipes. Copper is a vibrant material and can awaken a somewhat dead instrument.

- Should I look to convert my lead pipe into a push down or threaded system?

My favorite setup is a slight variation on the press-fit pipe where either a threaded pipe has the threads filed down so that the ring still rests over the edge of the cork barrel OR such a ring is fitted to the top. This makes it so that the pipe doesn't come out with your mouthpiece everytime but still allows it to be modular. It's also much cheaper than threads but you also then have to have every pipe you try filed down or modified.

Threads aren't that expensive to add... but it is an extra cost. Expect ~$150 depending on the corkbarrel. King 3B can be tricky. If you go with Shires theads, it'll be slightly more difficult because the braces on the King are a lot larger than the ones on the Shires.

- What can I expect from different lead pipes?
My issues with the 3b is that my lower range isn't as easy to play as I'd like to be. I can get the notes out fine, but when I really move the air it begins to close in on me. This could just be the fact that this is a small bore horn.

Depends on the pipe! I don't know what the 3B pipe would be, but they seem lik they are relatively short but have a centered taper so what you are experiencing is something that I might expect. You also might be playing on a rim that's a touch too small for you. I had the same issue until I switched to larger rims (on a 104N now, previously a 6.5AL a long time ago). But something that is a little more towards the open side of the spectrum. I don't know what Brassark's 32H replica pipe would be corrolary to, but I actually have one on order in sterling silver because of their description:

This is a classic pipe that is great for trombonists looking to slot up their unfocused instrument. It removes the sloppiness of slow responding trombones and give a well defined clarity and feedback to each partial giving much more consistency. The upper register sparkles and the low range has some beefiness to it.

So that might be worth checking out. I ordered mine awhile ago... I'll have to check back in with Noah. Otherwise, I'd probably start with a Shires #2 and see how that responds. You can try it well enough without modifying it so you are likely to be able to re-sell it rather quickly if it doesn't work out or you want to try something out. The #2 in yellow brass is a really good starting point because it's middle of the road and you can figure out if you want to deviate in one direction or the other. Otherwise, if you start out too far in one extreme, it's hard to figure out how far the other direction you should go!

[Burgerbob]

"Long pipes tend to be more 'open' and shorter pipes more towards the 'centered' so you can have a short #3 and a long #1 and they balance the pipe out subtly in the other direction, etc."

This is backwards.

[Matt K]

"Long pipes tend to be more 'open' and shorter pipes more towards the 'centered' so you can have a short #3 and a long #1 and they balance the pipe out subtly in the other direction, etc."

This is backwards.

D'oh! Yes, corrected.

Shires has a great write up too that is definitely worth checking out:

https://www.seshires.com/tromboneleadpipes

[Posaunus]

I've been curious about lead pipes for my 3b as well.

- Is it worth messing around with lead pipes? Is it a slippery slope?

Based on Matt K's lengthy, convoluted response, it sure seems like a "slippery slope" to me!

But on the other hand, I'm quite pleased with the way the King 3BSS plays with the factory lead pipe, so I'm really not qualified to comment. I like this trombone the way it came from the King factory in 1967.

[Jmac]

That Brass Arc one sounds interesting to me as well. In addition to the description I owned a 32h and the notes just popped out with ease and it sounded great. Unfortunately the slide tubes had little plating left. 4 months lead time for it is a little long.

[Jmac]

I have another question. For me this has come up because I’ve been told the leadpipe may need to be replaced. If that is the case could I have them put the stock one in, because it’s available now, but press fit it in so I can try another pipe as it becomes available?

[harrisonreed]

I have another question. For me this has come up because I’ve been told the leadpipe may need to be replaced. If that is the case could I have them put the stock one in, because it’s available now, but press fit it in so I can try another pipe as it becomes available?

Depends on "them", but yeah. You can!

[Jmac]

I have another question. For me this has come up because I’ve been told the leadpipe may need to be replaced. If that is the case could I have them put the stock one in, because it’s available now, but press fit it in so I can try another pipe as it becomes available?

Depends on "them", but yeah. You can!

Sending it to the Slide Dr for slide work.

[harrisonreed]

Ask if they can add a pressfit collar to a bare pipe

[Jmac]

Ask if they can add a pressfit collar to a bare pipe

Ok. I may drive to Osmun this morning and ask them as well. They seem to dislike old horns, unfortunately.

[BGuttman]

Ask if they can add a pressfit collar to a bare pipe

Ok. I may drive to Osmun this morning and ask them as well. They seem to dislike old horns, unfortunately.

They do? That hasn't been my experience with them.

Note that King leadpipes are 2 piece, and getting your old one out may be hazardous to its reuse.

Once the old one is out you should have no problem putting in aything else that will fit.

[harrisonreed]

He's already replacing the old one

[Jmac]

Ok. I may drive to Osmun this morning and ask them as well. They seem to dislike old horns, unfortunately.

They do? That hasn't been my experience with them.

Note that King leadpipes are 2 piece, and getting your old one out may be hazardous to its reuse.

Once the old one is out you should have no problem putting in aything else that will fit.

Yes I’ve had a less than helpful front counter person there in the past. Just went there though and I believe I spoke to either the owner or someone who does the repairs. He was very helpful and knowledgeable. He said the leadpipe is fine. The problem will actually correct itself pretty quickly as I play the horn.

[BGuttman]

Bob Osmun is the owner and Jim Becker does a lot of the repairs. I've dealt with both in the past and found them to be very accommodating. Bob and Jim are both masters on French Horns. And the shop has a well-deserved reputation among Boston area brass players as THE place to go when you need a good repair.

[Matt K]

I went to Osmun a few years ago when a friend of mine had his C trumpet mangled. I was working at a resort a few hours away. I had a few minor things as well as a tubist who wanted some stuff done. Mostly saturn keys. They were very accommodating but actually I do remember the person working the front desk was rather terse which is understandably off putting if you aren't familiar with repair in general. Because of the nature of some of the stuff we were doing the tech came out and he was much more personable.

That's not surprising that something isn't 'wrong' with your pipe and indeed, and they are designed to work well with the horn generally speaking. But it isn't necessarily a one-size-fits-all type proposition but depending on your familiarity with the instrument and how much you want to dedicate to getting that last 5-10% out of the horn is when you'd do that. Fortunately with the 3B, the part is still made so you can replace it. With some vintage horns, its often a risky proposition for part of the horn that is irreplacable.

[JLivi]

This is a little bit subjective. The slope is only as slippery as you let it be. That said, you could exhaust your options with that bore size much more quickly than 547 or 562. There are myriad options for those but 508 is slightly more limited. Shires has 6 sizes and 4 materials, Edwards just 3 sizes and I believe only yellow brass?, Brassark offers one size in a few different materials, Rath are technically a little too large (.510) but they wouldn't be difficult to buff down .002". You might be able to get your hands on a used Kanstul H8. And... there's not a whole lot more out there. That all said, unlike larger bores, the vast, vast, vast majority of small bore players use Yellow brass, so that helps limit your options.

Wow! Thank you for a well detailed response. I needed to read that.

Generally speaking, can you order any lead pipe threaded or press fit? Or are there some manufacturers out there that only makes threaded pipes.

[Matt K]

Wow! Thank you for a well detailed response. I needed to read that.

Generally speaking, can you order any lead pipe threaded or press fit? Or are there some manufacturers out there that only makes threaded pipes.

No problem! Glad it helped!

The short of it is that every current manufacturer that I am aware of offers threads or threadless as an option. However there are a couple of considerations. First, threads are different between manufacturers and bore sizes. Usually medium, large, and bass are their own thread size and alto & small bore tenor are their own thread size.

Secondly, depending on who you are ordering from, it's invariably better to go with the 'stock' version of the pipe and then alter it. For example, if you order a threadless pipe from Shires, it - at least it used to be - custom order, so it would take 6+ weeks to get. Whereas if they had one with the thread soldered on they'd mail it to you that day if it was in stock (and common sizes often are). It only costs a few $$ to have your tech file the ring down and I actually prefer that setup so if you order from somewhere that has a ring, I'd suggest ordering it with a ring. Likewise, Brassark charges a few $$ to have threads added and it takes more time to source so I'd probably order w/o one and then have a ring applied to it later if you like the pipe. It's an easy job for a tech.

[greenbean]

Honestly, the 3B stock pipe is excellent. Don't overthink this. And, IIRC, is runs about $35.

[Jmac]

Honestly, the 3B stock pipe is excellent. Don't overthink this. And, IIRC, is runs about $35.

Yes thanks. When I was told I might need it replaced I figured I check out my options. Personally I’m much better off practicing and forgetting about the gear. I am glad I had someone knowledgeable take a look at the horn though....Lots of great info here. I appreciate it.