Earl Williams Trombone

[ttf_Jhereg]

 

[ttf_Jhereg]

Today I went back to work and brought the Williams to hang out with the Minicks.
Photos were a must. Not often you get to see this.



During our dark week (nine days) I didn't play at all. Stupid as that may be, it was nice to have a break.
That in mind, Brett and I had a go at the Williams today to form some first impressions.

We noted that as far as bell size, Brett's Minick is the largest, mine is the smallest, and the Williams falls between. But the Williams definitely has the widest bell throat, no question.
 
Brett said he felt there was a lot of space between the partials. He sounded very smooth playing in the high register, everything just popped into place. We both agreed that this horn sounds more "dense" than the Minicks, just a lot of overtones and a lot of potential for getting loud without losing stability. We also found that third position felt really out of place for us compared to the Minicks...perhaps this is because the bell is closer to the face?

I played it for rehearsal and struggled a bit with tuning, because I wasn't the only one who hadn't played the entire break  Plus positions on the Williams in relation to the bell are just different. This will teach me to stop using the bell as a guide Didn't realize I'd been relying on that visual so much! Rehearsal was good to work out the kinks.

The show was much better than rehearsal. I had to pay close attention to stop using the bell as a gauge, but it worked. It will take a little while to get used to this horn and compare it properly, but I already feel that the Williams is quite different than the Minicks. Darker and denser. It's more...hungry or something. Every note I played had this devil's advocate undertone of "You know, that could have been louder with zero added effort and no loss in quality. Just sayin'." Dangerous! And even though the sound is kind of dark, it still cuts very well and responds quickly (though I have to say, first impression, I think it is not as cutting and responsive as the Minicks). Really an interesting horn. Other than a few basic tuning issues and me shying away from certain notes for fear of sounding awful, it was a good first impression.

I'm no good at properly describing partials, intonation, etc., so forgive me if this description sounds a bit juvenile. If there's anything specific you'd like to hear about regarding how this horn plays just let me know and I'll do my best to describe!

At some point I will make a "Minick vs. Williams" video, comparing both horns. Probably not until next year when we're done with all of these ridiculous dark weeks, and when I can find a nice quiet place to set up the GoPro.

[ttf_Jhereg]

Surprised that no one has posted this here yet.

From Mike Corrigan/HornDR:
"Dude... I don't need 5 Williams Trombones.... I may have a problem. anybody want a rare/early Williams and Wallace Trombone? I need to sell at least one of these bad boys. Probably two...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BONYttAhbf0/

[ttf_anonymous]

Asking for a "friend," ahem.

If one had an L.A. Williams 6 from the late 40's with original lacquer in mint condition what might that be worth?

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

I'm not aware of any 6's from the late 40's.  Are you sure about that?

[ttf_jbtrombone]

Landress looked it up, he thought 1949/early 50's at the latest.  3 digit serial #, belonged to a surgeon who passed away some time ago, I purchased the horn from his grandson.  Came in the original case (old streamlineBach style)  with Ponds cold cream, marching lyre & a 1930s NY Bach 8SC mouthpiece, the likes of which no one in the shop had seen before.

[ttf_ntap]

Looking to get rid of that 8SC JB?

[ttf_Jhereg]

Quote from: jbtrombone on Dec 25, 2016, 11:43PMLandress looked it up, he thought 1949/early 50's at the latest.  3 digit serial #, belonged to a surgeon who passed away some time ago, I purchased the horn from his grandson.  Came in the original case (old streamlineBach style)  with Ponds cold cream, marching lyre & a 1930s NY Bach 8SC mouthpiece, the likes of which no one in the shop had seen before.

Pics?

[ttf_jbtrombone]

Earl Williams L.A. Model 6 Serial # 8XX, original lacquer.

[ttf_jbtrombone]

[ttf_dj kennedy]

looks  like  an  la  6  but could also  be  4   bore
  the  6  and 4 and  8  have a  number 46 8 stamped on them somewhere
when he started this  ???????
  john noxon is the  expert   for sure 
----------
currently the  burbank  6   bob  and tennesse  are running about 3500
  the earlier la 6  has been solid 25-2600   this one might be more ?????
the 4 --wow  often  @  4large
---------
  so  the  bore size   matters 

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

The model number is visible but blurry in one of the pictures, I think it's a 6.  That horn is just like one of mine which is an early 900's serial and I thought is was mid-1950's.

Jhereg's 6 is just few numbers away from mine.

Look right above the serial number for the model number, either 4 or 6.

[ttf_jbtrombone]

Doug is correct it is a model 6.  I believe he is also correct about the approximate date of production, given the 8XX serial number.  I'm not sure of the rate at which these horns were produced in that period.  I have read that the patent on the hand slide was acquired in 1949 and the horns made prior were stamped patent pending... is that true?  (Apologies if I'm rehashing information discussed earlier in the thread.  86 pages is a lot to read if it's not 50 Shades or Game of Thrones.  Also, here is a photo of some mutes asked about earlier in the thread:

[ttf_dj kennedy]

a  williams 6   
bell   plain marked    earl williams  //no custom made above///or  anything below
---------
has left the  building  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
---------
round  bows  --after  much  blowing   
 

[ttf_JohnL]

Quote from: jbtrombone on Dec 29, 2016, 12:43PMI have read that the patent on the hand slide was acquired in 1949 and the horns made prior were stamped patent pending... is that true?The patent for the curved brace (1782452) was granted on Nov. 25, 1930 (application date January 4, 1928). Earl had an earlier patent (1661147) for a TIS mechanism (filed Dec. 29, 1925, granted February 28, 1928) and a later one (2439997) for his water key design (filed Sep. 10, 1945, granted April 20, 1948).

As far as I know, the only time Earl used a "PATENT PENDING" stamp was for the curved brace. Once the patent was granted, he started stamping the patent number on the brace.

[ttf_Jhereg]

Oooooh so pretty!  Thank you for the pics! 

[ttf_dj kennedy]

A   BOB  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=====================================================================




Quote from: dj kennedy on Jan 05, 2017, 07:46AMa  williams 6   
bell   plain marked    earl williams  //no custom made above///or  anything below
---------
has left the  building  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
---------
round  bows  --after  much  blowing   
 

[ttf_The Sheriff]

Quote from: dj kennedy on Jan 08, 2017, 08:25PMA   BOB  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=====================================================================





Yup, it's a BOB and I love it.

[ttf_jbtrombone]

Gentlemen,

       Thank you so much for sharing all of this great information, much appreciated.

[ttf_bonenick]

Quote from: jbtrombone on Dec 29, 2016, 10:33AM
Can you enlighten my, how that key is working? It doesn't look like a common trombone water key, and that's spyrale spring...what's up with that?

[ttf_The Sheriff]

Quote from: bonenick on Jan 12, 2017, 05:29AMCan you enlighten my, how that key is working? It doesn't look like a common trombone water key, and that's spyrale spring...what's up with that?

It's a curved rod within a curved tube. Look closely at where the spring ends and you will see the curved inner rod. Press the knurled knob at the spring end (barely visible in pic) and it lifts the cork up and away from the nipple allowing the water to drain.

[ttf_Exzaclee]

Sorry Troy... If it doesn't work out between us I'll call you first.

[ttf_Exzaclee]

Thanks Slip, it's a blower!

This is the first with king style crook i've played... i dig it!

Unwrapping it was a pain - he shipped it well... and I was trying to not drop anything or screw anything up.

Serial number 30XX, single radius crook, burbank on grip, one line of info on bell EARL WILLIAMS - from what little I know about these horns, pretty sure it's a Bob - I'm a king guy and that's what what I want.

First impression: it's a beast, takes what I give it. I'm playing it in a rehearsal tonight and on a big band gig this weekend. Update to follow.

[ttf_SilverBone]

Serial number 30xx is definitely a Bob.  Enjoy it!

[ttf_Sliphorn]

Quote from: Exzaclee on Apr 05, 2017, 09:48AMThanks Slip, it's a blower!

This is the first with king style crook i've played... i dig it!

Unwrapping it was a pain - he shipped it well... and I was trying to not drop anything or screw anything up.

Serial number 30XX, single radius crook, burbank on grip, one line of info on bell EARL WILLIAMS - from what little I know about these horns, pretty sure it's a Bob - I'm a king guy and that's what what I want.

First impression: it's a beast, takes what I give it. I'm playing it in a rehearsal tonight and on a big band gig this weekend. Update to follow.
Glad you like it, good sir.  I have a few other Williams around, too.  Great horns, obviously.  Sorry about the pain up unwrapping it...I wanted to keep shipping low and protection high!

[ttf_anonymous]

Quote from: JohnL on Jan 05, 2017, 08:21AMThe patent for the curved brace (1782452) was granted on Nov. 25, 1930 (application date January 4, 1928). Earl had an earlier patent (1661147) for a TIS mechanism (filed Dec. 29, 1925, granted February 28, 1928) and a later one (2439997) for his water key design (filed Sep. 10, 1945, granted April 20, 1948).

As far as I know, the only time Earl used a "PATENT PENDING" stamp was for the curved brace. Once the patent was granted, he started stamping the patent number on the brace.


I have an Earl Williams with the "PAT APLD FOR" stamp next to the hand brace. So I can assume 1928-1930 date range?

Still trying to nail down the approximate vintage of this beauty, which I bought in Boise ID about 12 years ago.

I think this would be a model 2, and the serial number looks like "3XX".

I tried to post photos but was not able.

Ross

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

I was wondering about that number 1782452 (and no other markings).  My pre-4 Wallace-Williams has that number hand-stamped on the brace flange, and I've seen that on other horns too.  It must have been shortly after the patent was granted.

[ttf_JohnL]

Quote from: rosskay on May 02, 2017, 02:06PM
I have an Earl Williams with the "PAT APLD FOR" stamp next to the hand brace. So I can assume 1928-1930 date range?I'd guess no later than 1931. It might have taken a while to work through any stock of braces with the old markings.

[ttf_rosskay]

Quote from: JohnL on May 02, 2017, 03:02PMI'd guess no later than 1931. It might have taken a while to work through any stock of braces with the old markings.

Thanks, John! I appreciate the feedback.

I took some photos of this horn this week.

Enjoy! #hornporn

[ttf_dj kennedy]

JAY ARMSTROMG///// TENNESSEE  ///6  /// 8  LETTERS //IN NEW CONDITION

[ttf_John McKevitt]

I haven't read the whole thread here.
So excuse me if this has been addressed
I hear a lot about the Model 6 and 4
What is the opinion on the Model 8?
I see it listed as a 522  bore and another source lists it as a 525 bore.
I have  played a 6 before when I was 1st starting to double on Tenor moving away from just being a Bass Trombonist.
It was the only 500 bore I felt I could play. Still on the small side for me.
I passed up that one for $500.00 in 1988 0r so
Talk about the Ones that Got Away
THen I also go to play a Bass Model Maybe a 9 with a Conn Bass slide
Both horns were exceptional instruments
Does anyone have any bad experiences with any of the Williams,
most specifically the Burbank Era Horns?

[ttf_The Sheriff]

Quote from: John McKevitt on May 12, 2017, 03:09PMI haven't read the whole thread here.
So excuse me if this has been addressed
I hear a lot about the Model 6 and 4
What is the opinion on the Model 8?
I see it listed as a 522  bore and another source lists it as a 525 bore.
I have  played a 6 before when I was 1st starting to double on Tenor moving away from just being a Bass Trombonist.
It was the only 500 bore I felt I could play. Still on the small side for me.
I passed up that one for $500.00 in 1988 0r so
Talk about the Ones that Got Away
THen I also go to play a Bass Model Maybe a 9 with a Conn Bass slide
Both horns were exceptional instruments
Does anyone have any bad experiences with any of the Williams,
most specifically the Burbank Era Horns?

The 8 is great. Blows big for its size. They are closer to a .522 than a .525.

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

I think the actual size of an 8 is .520.  I've only played a few, but I think they feel odd.  The Sheriff's is older and a very nice playing horn, it's different from the others.

[ttf_jnoxon]

Doug is correct it is a .520 bore horn. The model 9 is also the same bore.

[ttf_John McKevitt]

I am now a member of the Williams 8 club. I picked up one from Noah at the Brass Ark.
I just paid for it today
Made by Earl Himself stamped: Custom Made , Earl Williams,Burbank Calif
It also comes with a Piston Valve section and a case that fits all components.
SN 108X  I am told it use to Belong to Dave Wells of the Baja Marimba Band .I believe he also played with Kenton for a while. I will let you all know how it plays when I get it.
So Looking forward to it

[ttf_John McKevitt]

HOw about Earl's leadpipes?
Did he make his own? Did he use Burt Herrick pipes or someone elses?
Has anyone experimented with different leadpipes on the Williams Trombones?
I had played a Reynolds 30 L Contempora 520 bore horn in the past.I pulled the leadpipe and used an Edwards 3  525 pipe. I sanded it down to fit. It was a bit Brassy/Edgy. I cut it to 7.5 inches and it mellowed it out nicely. Still Free blowing with a good core to the sound

[ttf_jnoxon]

Earl had his own lead pipes. But the first thing anyone did was go over to Bert's shop and have a Herrick pipe installed. Most of the LA scene kind of liked the #2 as it was called. I have experimented with many pipes in all of his horns and I always go back to my Herrick pipes. Earl thought his horns were perfect and was insulted when someone changed something. He strongly felt his pipes were better than Bert's. I wonder if this was a friendly rivalry or not.

Since you bought the 8 from Noah I'll let you know a little about the properties of them. First Earl designed the horn small up front and large on the back end. This was done for the LA studio crowd. Most of those guys played small equipment .500 bore horns. It was a huge blow to go from a 2B to a .547 so the 8's and 9's filled that gap. It gives the larger bore sound without the big blow. My horns are 1 an Earl and 2  a Bob horn. When Earl died, 4 July 1971, Bob restarted the serial numbers at 3000, and he also used round crooks and the hand slide crook is always nickel plated. My Earl is a very nice horn typical dark Williams sound and slots very well. Very responsive in the upper register. But the Bob horn does all these things a little better so that is the one I play on rare occasions. Both great horns but the Bob is a little bit better for me.

The funny thing I find is unless you can find an old Herrick pipe changing the pipe is a waste of time. I don't know why that is but it seems to be that way for me. I have a box of about 50 lead pipes and unless its a Herrick or Williams it does not seem to work right with Williams horns. I say that is what worked for me because lead pipes are so subjective to opinion. Be careful if you try and remove a soldered in pipe its probably and Earl pipe if soldered, Herrick pipes of that generation were push ins, and a few soldered in place. If you remove a soldered pipe thats 50 years old its usually destroyed in the process.

If you ever want to get rid of the Valve Section just let me know! Earl built a few of his own but most were a Conn 5G valve section.

[ttf_John McKevitt]

Thanks JNoxson. Quite a wealth of practical knowledge in that email.
I will play it for a while B4 I think of changing leadpipes.
Did Burt Herrick make a leadpipe that would fit the Williams 8 bore?
I have had several pipes removed  from 50 years and even older  horns.
It is kind of the Luck of the draw. A 1929 Conn 78H destroyed. THat trb was never the same.
A 1930 Bach 35S. That pipe was horrible to begin with.    A shires 3 was a big improvement on it. A 1937 Conn 78H was successful but that SHires 3 did wonders for it also . I had to sand that one down too. Quite a few 1970's Holton Bass Trombones. A 60's Holton 169 Bass . I use to have Larry Minick  pull my leadpipes til he passed.  It was after he passed that I had issues with leadpipes not coming out intact.  I understand that Brad Close with the Brass Ark soaks them  for 2 weeks in penetrating oil B4 he tries to remove a vintage Trb leadpipe.
We will see when it arrives. Thanks again,John McKevitt

[ttf_John McKevitt]

Well the Williams 8 arrived the other day. It is worth every penny I paid for it. It plays Big and easy. It is a 520 bore. I tried to put my 522 bore Conn 78H pipe in the open end of the inner slide tube stocking.The tip barely fit.The Conn 5G valve section works nice and with the Williams bell section is not stuffy but has a nice bit of resistance. The handslide is in excellent condition with no wear. I couldn't be happier. I can't wait to get it "Out in the Wild" and see how it works on a gig. Best Wishes All, John McKevitt

[ttf_Exzaclee]

Hey John, before you go swapping out pipes, there is another less destructive route you can go -

Doug Elliot is pretty good at matching cups/backbores to instruments. Maybe give him a call - that way you don't chop up your baby if at all possible.

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

If you like it leave it alone.

[ttf_John McKevitt]

I am just going to play it for a while. Oddly this has a 9" bell. SOmeone on the forum stated that Allen Ostrander had 3 special made w/9" bells for a University in Ca. Sliphorn is his handle. I assumed this had an 8.5 bell. Whatever . It plays .  What is the normal bell size for an 8? THere is no stamping identifying it as a Univ horn as the other one had on the main bell brace  flange.

[ttf_John McKevitt]

FWIW , It has a shorter bell  position on it in relation to 3rd and 4th position. It reminds me of the bell length on some Holton Tr180 Bass Trombones I have owned.

[ttf_tlacy]

Is there a registry or database of Earl Williams horns?
If so, I'd like to add my newly acquired 6(LA #816) to the list.
What a Great horn!

[ttf_Sliphorn]

Quote from: John McKevitt on May 26, 2017, 04:15PMI am just going to play it for a while. Oddly this has a 9" bell. SOmeone on the forum stated that Allen Ostrander had 3 special made w/9" bells for a University in Ca. Sliphorn is his handle. I assumed this had an 8.5 bell. Whatever . It plays .  What is the normal bell size for an 8? THere is no stamping identifying it as a Univ horn as the other one had on the main bell brace  flange.
I believe the standard bell size for a Williams 8 or a 9 is 9".  And yes, very cool horns.  Glad you like yours.

PS - When I said Ostrander ordered these horns custom, I didn't mean the bells were a custom size.  They're stamped CSU, which is custom, and also mine has a standard spit valve with a curly one ready to install if the player wishes.

[ttf_jnoxon]

Williams 8 has an 8.5 inch bell, the model 9 has a 9" bell. Please keep in mind there was some variation in bell sizes. Ive owned a model 6 with a 7.5" bell, I have a 9 thats 9.5 and my 10 is over 9.5".

The line up would be this:
Model#   Bore   Bell size
4             .490    7.5"
6             .500    8.0"
7             .500    8.0" With "F" attachment all odd numbers were F"F" attachment horns
8             .520   8.5 "   
9            .520    9.0"
10          .565    9.5" or 10"

But as stated there were variations in bell sizes.

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

A friend has an LA 6 for sale that I may bring to the ITF.

[ttf_dj kennedy]

HAD an la 6  7 1/2  bell  ///  build  somewhat  different than  a   burbank    --also  the ''BOB''  and tennessee  slight differences   



Quote from: jnoxon on Jun 10, 2017, 08:21PMWilliams 8 has an 8.5 inch bell, the model 9 has a 9" bell. Please keep in mind there was some variation in bell sizes. Ive owned a model 6 with a 7.5" bell, I have a 9 thats 9.5 and my 10 is over 9.5".

The line up would be this:
Model#   Bore   Bell size
4             .490    7.5"
6             .500    8.0"
7             .500    8.0" With "F" attachment all odd numbers were F"F" attachment horns
8             .520   8.5 "   
9            .520    9.0"
10          .565    9.5" or 10"

But as stated there were variations in bell sizes.

[ttf_John McKevitt]

WTB Williams/ Donnelson TN   Model 10 Bass Trombone Bell
[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]
Thanks, John

[ttf_Bach42BOS]

Billy Byers' gold plated Model 4.