Distilled water and red rot?

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:48 am

Hi all. I have a yellow brass slide from a well-respected custom maker that is just under two years old. I recently took it out to find that the bottom several inches of both outer slide tubes is just covered in red rot! I keep my slides very clean and have played this particular slide very little since I got it. I’m shocked.

I have been using distilled water on my slides because I have well water at my house with lots of iron in it. Several instrument makers suggest distilled water also. I was wondering if perhaps the mineral-free distilled water has a tendency to leach the zinc out of the brass? I did some googling on this and most of the results were in the same category of crank pseudoscience as anti-vaccination and astrology, but I wonder if there might be something to it? I’ve got many other trombones with yellow brass slides and have never had a problem like this before, so I wonder if I just got some tubes that were made with a poor quality alloy or what.

Post by **BGuttman** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:54 am

There is something to it. Distilled water is very slightly acidic and will extract some zinc from the alloy. But enough to be visible red rot? Not likely. At least not in the time period you mention. I'd look for another reason.

Are you sure it's red rot and not something else? Have you tried polishing the "red rot"? If it polishes off it's not red rot. Red rot would go through the slide metal so that as you polish the spot remains. Some copper oxides are dark red and if your slide is not lacquered it could be from that.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:10 am

It's definitely under the lacquer so it won't polish off. In a few of the spots the lacquer has kind of bubbled off where it's happened, but in many I could not reach it to polish. I guess I'd have to look at it from the inside with a bore-scope to be sure? And it extends about 4 inches from the ferrule at the crook so I don't think it'd be acid bleed from the assembly.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:32 am

VERY unlikely this has anything to do with the distilled water, which should be effectively neutral. (If so, all the rest of us who use distilled water would be facing this problem.) I've never seen anything like this on any of my trombones whose slides are always sprayed with distilled water. Distilled water is widely used in laboratory and commercial applications where contamination and corrosion must be avoided.

Perhaps you should contact Shires (or whoever made your slide) to see if they can shine any light on the issue. (Speaking of shining a light, a borescope sounds like a good idea.)

timothy42b · Post by **timothy42b** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:46 pm

Red rot, on a two year old custom slide, lightly played?

Maybe if you filled it with ammonia. Otherwise this makes no sense. What might make more sense is a lacquer bleed caused by a surface preparation problem. If so your custom maker will probably take care of it. I can't imagine any that don't stand behind their product, if they were at fault.

Post by **Doug Elliott** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:02 pm

Distilled or reverse osmosis water does tend to absorb metals easily if it's in constant contact. But it's not...

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:21 pm

I also wonder if it is acid bleed. You should contact them. If it is acid bleed they may so "sorry!" But if it is red rot I bet they will replace it.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:09 am

I have contacted them. They asked for photos which I provided, and now I'm waiting to hear something back.

AndrewMeronek · Post by **AndrewMeronek** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:58 am

That looks a lot like a slide getting hit by something. I also think I see a dent about 1/3 down from the top of the pic.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:13 am

There's no dent. And that's on the inside and under the lacquer. It wasn't hit by anything.

Also, the spots are on BOTH outers and go all the way around the tubes. That spot is just the most concentrated.

AndrewMeronek · Post by **AndrewMeronek** » Wed May 01, 2019 11:42 am

When you get a strongly biased pattern like that, a mechanical cause is most likely. I'm not suggesting one 'bang' event - but many, perhaps hundreds. I remember having a terrible trombone case in high school where the slide was loose enough and positioned such that it was gouging a huge hole in the bell as I stored the horn.

paulyg · Post by **paulyg** » Wed May 01, 2019 9:12 pm

The picture is a little blurry to tell, but that doesn't look like red rot.

Bart · Post by **Bart** » Thu May 02, 2019 3:13 am

It's hard to tell from the picture, but I've seen slides under two years old (even from respectable custom makers) with red rot. In those cases I suspect something went wrong in the manufacturing, either by a fault in the brass or in the drawing of the tubes. I do not believe that distilled water is the cause of this at all. In most cases, the maker replaced the slide.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Fri May 17, 2019 8:24 am

Well, I sat down with a cheap USB borescope this morning and the slide tubes do have spots on the inside that correspond with the marks on the outside. I'm going to polish with brass polish and then see if I can still see them.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Fri May 17, 2019 9:23 am

Yep, they were dark spots before polishing and now after having cleaned up the slide with wright's and a cleaning rod the inside is a bright yellow mirror finish except for down at the bottom corresponding with these spots where it's very pink.

brassmedic · Post by **brassmedic** » Fri May 17, 2019 2:37 pm

Sure sounds like red rot to me. I don't know why several people here are saying it doesn't.

Red rot that I've seen always manifests as small round red marks, as in your picture. What did the manufacturer say?

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Fri May 17, 2019 2:41 pm

"Red rot": Possibly / probably

Distilled water as a causative factor: Unlikely

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Fri May 17, 2019 2:50 pm

no word back from the manufacturer, although they did recently have a big event which may have been diverting their attention. I'm going to send a screen shot from the borescope.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Wed May 29, 2019 2:50 pm

So I've heard back from the manufacturer who confirms they believe my photos depict red rot. Their initial email blames it on a "damp environment" and doesn't suggest that they would "take care of it" -- they offered to refinish it for a price. But doesn't it need two new outer tubes? Even if they refinish it, isn't this starting on the inside? Wouldn't it just come back? And wouldn't the inside of the outer tubes never be perfectly smooth?

bassbone · Post by **bassbone** » Wed May 29, 2019 3:07 pm

Yes, If it is red rot refinishing solves nothing long term. Tubes need to be replaced to truly fix the problem.

I will start this by saying I am not a repair tech. That being said, all brass instruments are "damp environments." That sounds like B.S. to me.

If the "well respected" manufacturer is not standing by their 2 year old product I would absolutely not hesitate to name them publicly (or use the threat of naming them to shame them into doing the right thing). if you drop $5,000 on a custom horn it is a reasonable expectation for that to last more than 2 years. I think that it is pretty tough in this case to make a credible argument for the cause of that to be anything other than a flaw in their manufacturing process.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Wed May 29, 2019 3:31 pm

Yeah, I'm dealing with a salesperson and not a tech here. I've got to go through the process.

I can understand them not wanting to just replace it outright for me. The slide is only two years old, but it was a replacement for another slide that at that time was a few years old and that they swapped out for me because it had a defect in the chrome plating on the inners. But I am looking for them to admit it is a defect in materials and offer something - I pay for labor and they pay for parts, for example. I'm going to give them a little more time before I name and shame.

brassmedic · Post by **brassmedic** » Wed May 29, 2019 3:50 pm

You need to talk to someone else. That person obviously doesn't know what red rot is, because you can't buff out red rot, therefore it makes no sense to offer to re-finish the slide. Makes me wonder how that person would know it's red rot, since they don't know what red rot is.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:48 pm

So I had a discussion today with someone who I believe knows exactly what happened here. He mentioned that the same exact thing happened to his slide.

It's the glue that marcus bonna uses to put the cases together. The fumes that off gas from the glue attacks the lacquer on certain brands of instruments. It's not a big deal if your instrument is in and out of the case all the time, but since mine has been in the case pretty much 24/7 since I moved, for well over a year, that did it. Down by the crook on the bass trombone case the slide goes into this little pocket to hold the end - and that's exactly the part that has the most damage.

Bummer, but I think that explains why it'd come out from buffing and is actually from the outside in and not the inside out. The good news is I should be able to have my local tech take off a little bit of lacquer, buff it up, and put on a touch of spray lacquer and it'll look like new.

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:45 pm

So it wasn't red rot?... You gave a pretty accurate description of red rot earlier in the thread.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:02 pm

Well, it essentially is, but it’s starting from the outside in rather than the inside out. So if that’s true it’s currently just superficial.

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:21 pm

bbocaner wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:02 pm Well, it essentially is, but it’s starting from the outside in rather than the inside out. So if that’s true it’s currently just superficial.

Ahhh so there's a difference between zinc leaking out and red rot.

Red rot is the advanced form of the zinc leaking out. Red rot just means it's eaten all the way through the tube. If it's a small amount of zince leaking out it means nothing and can be polished out with some brass polish.

You have the small spots show up on your horn for example if you ever get your horn chem cleaned. I recently got my horn chem cleaned and I got spooked when I saw pink spots show up. Bit of brass polish and they instantly went away, so my horn is safe. No pink spots on the inside of the tubes.

But what you were describing earlier in the thread with the spots being on both the inside and outside of the tube sounds like red rot, at least to me. Since that would imply the acids have eaten all the way through.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:45 pm

Yes, I follow you. It's hard to tell with the borescope. I suspect it's possible I misread the inside photos.

CharlieB · Post by **CharlieB** » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:14 am

So, this "well respected custom maker" sold you a slide that had failed plating on the inners, and replaced it with a slide that has lacquer failure on the outers........ Hmmmmmmm.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:01 pm

bbocaner wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:48 pmIt's the glue that marcus bonna uses to put the cases together. The fumes that off gas from the glue attacks the lacquer on certain brands of instruments. It's not a big deal if your instrument is in and out of the case all the time, but since mine has been in the case pretty much 24/7 since I moved, for well over a year, that did it. Down by the crook on the bass trombone case the slide goes into this little pocket to hold the end - and that's exactly the part that has the most damage.

Whoa, that is some seriously nasty glue if it's doing that! Unless, they are using Nitrocellulose Lacquer, which is what Nikolas Lacquer is. It's still the standard touch up lacquer, and many companies use it because it doesn't require the same ovens and other setup that the baked epoxy lacquers do.

If it's nitro, then yes, I could see it reacting with the glue in a case, and a lot of other things.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:30 pm

No, it's epoxy lacquer.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:53 pm

bbocaner wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:30 pm No, it's epoxy lacquer.

That's a bit strange. Usually the epoxy and polymerized lacquers are pretty chemically inert.

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:03 pm

Some epoxies are more inert than others. Novalic Epoxies are good film formers and would be nearly impervious. Some of the other epoxies I've worked with were more porous.

Also, if the epoxy coating is not deaerated you can get tiny bubbles in the coating that may allow corrosive fumes to work their way through.

If the epoxy is dried too quickly you can get a cracked surface where there may be very little coating at the bottom of a crack.

I've also found that some solvent cleaners will imbibe into epoxy. Methylene chloride is one.

Baking an epoxy coating is actually a science and if not done properly it may not act as expected.

BillO · Post by **BillO** » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:54 pm

Marcus Bonna, a premium priced case maker uses a glue that off-fumes a corrosive that consumes the instruments the case was designed to hold? Something fishy here.

If this is true Marcus Bonna should repair your trombone and replace the case with one that won't eat your trombone or refund the cost you paid for the metal hungry POS they sold you.

Have you contacted them? I would. If they don't respond favorably post your story on facebook and be sure to mention their hashtag.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:12 am

They are aware of the issue and say it's a Shires problem and Shires says it's normal wear and tear.

BillO · Post by **BillO** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:36 pm

Ahh, the ol' finger pointing two-step.

I'm extremely disappointed with the finish on my Shires trombone. No instrument's lacquer should be so dismally feeble. No other pro-level trombone I've owned (Conn, King, XO, Yamaha, etc.) has ever been so wiling to cast off it's lacquer than my $5000 Shires custom. No other trombones I know of suffer more from acid bleed either.

Considering I have instruments that cost less than half what the Shires did, and for me they sound and play just a well and have much better finishes overall. The only thing the Shires has going for it IMHO is it's configuration options.

I'll never own another. This just my opinion and experience so if you're a Shires fanboy that's okay too.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:34 pm

I like the way Shires instruments play, a lot, but I'm starting to move away from them for similar reasons. Just a lot of little quality issues which all add up. They used to be more willing to fix them for you then they are now.

trombonedemon · Post by **trombonedemon** » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:43 am

I once met a Bass trombonist who said he quit playing bass trombone b/c his saliva kept destroying the brass. He was a piano salesman. Have you had your saliva check for its acidity?

HeyMan · Post by **HeyMan** » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:12 am

A major manufacturer had an issue with red rot on a "custom" model of their instruments. I had the misfortune of owning one of these models. The manufacturer investigated the problem and they discovered that the zinc to copper ratio used for making the yellow brass was what had caused the issue. Unfortunately, these things happen with even the best manufacturers, although they are not commonplace. They accepted full responsibility and they agreed to replace the affected areas on the instruments.

My problem was a bit more complicated because I wasn't the original owner. As such, they didn't want to honor their warranty. Thankfully, a friend in the music industry went to bat for me, and I was allowed to send my instrument in to have the affected areas replaced. Even at that, upon receiving my instrument, the head of the warranty department wrote me an email saying that the reason why my instrument failed is because I didn't maintain it properly. BS! Why would I need to meticulously clean my instrument prior to having warranty work? My point is that "finger pointing" is normal, unfortunately. FWIW... Keep in mind that for certain people, their closest friend lives in the mirror.

2bobone · Post by **2bobone** » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:23 pm

Quote from HeyMan : "Hey, Man !" was "The Chief's" customary greeting. Emory B. Remington - Dec.22,1892 - Dec.19, 1971

I wonder what Frances Fox and Jeanie Hurt [ two of The Chief's female students in the late 50's - early 60's ] thought of that greeting ? Times have changed !
OOPS ! Sorry ! I forgot we were discussing Red Rot !

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:13 pm

Isn't nickel silver much less susceptible to red-rot? I think it only really affects yellow brass. Even rose and red brass are less affected by it. Seems like just avoiding yellow brass would help with the zinc getting removed.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:14 pm

But I like the way yellow brass plays! We ended up figuring out that this was surface corrosion due to lacquer failure and not red rot which starts from the inside, but I was still disappointed by their response.