High Ab unstable

[rmb796]

Hi Everyone,
The high Ab on my Bach 42 has been a difficult note to attain. Every note around it plays fine but the high Ab in 3rd position seems to crack or be illusive (maybe like a "wolf" note on a cello).
I started experimenting with a piece of 1" velcro, wrapping it around the bell in various positions. I finally found a spot just under the tuning slide (on the bell side), that seemed to help the Ab respond better. Everything else seemed to remain fine.
Has anyone else experienced anything similar and what did you do?

Thanks for any helpful info.

Randy

[paulyg]

This Ab and the D above it are notoriously terrible notes on Bb trombones (tenor and bass).

This partial is troublesome even on my alto (a very fine Latzsch), which sounds a Db.

[rmb796]

Thanks Paul. I'm glad it is not just me. I always include the Ab scale and appegios in my daily warm ups.
Thanks

[imsevimse]

The high Ab has been discussed before as many players have difficulties with the note. I remember I too had problems with that note when at college. It used to split the tone and caused cracked articulations. At the time my highest notes were about a squeezed C. Since my emboushure settled and I secured my high range I have no problem with that note anymore, not on any of my trombones. It leads me to the conclusion the solution is to overcome the problem with a solid emboushure. When you can play a secure high F then the problem with Ab is probably no more. The idea to apply something to the horn to make it behave differently is old but I have not heard about it to overcome this problem. If it helps it is great. You might have a solution that interest a lot of players here.

/Tom

[norbie2018]

I had the exact same problem with my Yamaha large bore. I let another person try it and he had no split attacks, the Ab was as clear as a bell. This leads me to the conclusion that it is something going on with my chops, not the horn. My solution? For now, slow practice of Remington-type flexibilities low to high, high to low, or the high register exercise (p 32?) from the Kleinhammer/Yeo book. I alternate between these, never all in one day. Also, slow practice of the Cimera Phrasing Studies at pitch, tenor clef, an octave above, and an octave below. Finally, when playing high I imagine blowing to the bottom of the mp.

I have already improved my Ab (the entire high register, really) defined as fewer split attacks, but I understand it will take months if not years to make it solid.

[Jimprindle]

50 years ago in college I had trouble with that note and the Gb below it (on bass trombone). For the past 45 years no problem at all on Bach, Conn, King, and Shires. Why is it fixed? I needed to fix me (now, the uproarious comments about being "fixed"). It is called "practice" and "ear-training".

This was before digital tuners, to train my ear I used etudes like the Bordognis, and various exercises (Remington, Stamp, and others). But I played them in 3 different octaves--low (sometimes very low), middle, and high. Sometimes I would play these etudes in different keys (up a step, a third, a fourth, etc.), sometimes I would sing them, sometimes record myself and check my intonation.

During all of those years, I had many private students, maybe a thousand. What I observed from them was that the note they were looking for in their mind was not in tune with the octaves below. Especially that Ab and Gb. Usually they were thinking the note sharper than it was, sometimes flatter. When they (and I) heard the note correctly, it was easier to produce the correct pitch.....unless....

They (or me) had the slide position marginally off from the correct overtone.

For myself and all my various instruments, the fundamental, 1st overtone (2nd partial), 3rd overtone (4th partial), 7th overtone (8th partial) lock in with no problem unless I screw around with the slide and/or the embouchure. Of course that assumes the instrument is properly and professionally built.

But my old man advice is that if you are not hearing the note accurately, blaming the horn and your technique is an alibi, not a solution. Can't tell you how many students tried to fix that Ab with screwing around with their slide, playing with weak uncontrollable embouchure, and having no idea of the feeling of nailing a note while singing it in your mind.

My 2 cents.

[harrisonreed]

There are definitely some horns that don't have a really solid 7th and 8th partial. If you can acknowledge that - say you've played a horn where it is easy to play an Ab -- then it's not necessarily all the player's fault

[norbie2018]

You are correct. In my case, I discovered it was my fault and I'm working on it. Perhaps the OP may want to borrow other instruments to check out their Ab; he'll soon know if it's him or the instrument.

[imsevimse]

There are definitely some horns that don't have a really solid 7th and 8th partial. If you can acknowledge that - say you've played a horn where it is easy to play an Ab -- then it's not necessarily all the player's fault

Yes, around Ab is where the partials are closer to each other. Close to that Ab you have the Gb below and the Bb above. The Ab is more difficult but it do help with a solid strong emboushure. I have no horn today that has that problem and I have to many horns to count. The next octave is the problem on my horns

/Tom

[rmb796]

Thanks for all of your great ideas. My Ab is fine on my King 2b and 3b., but on my 42 with a Schilke 51 my highest good sounding note is a high c# and sometimes D. I will start working harder on my upper register and see what happens.
(love the 55 phrasing studies by Cimera)

Thanks

[JLivi]

Not that this helps anyone, but I didn't secure my high Ab until I started playing Whitney Houston's "Wanna Dance With Somebody" on a regular basis. It modulates from Gb to Ab, and in my part I play about 32 high Ab's in that chart. It's my own fault as I arranged the horn chart. But what it did for me get me to be really consistent on my Ab's.

But I also noticed that mentally I had a weird approach to Ab's because I knew it was going to chip. So once I switched over to an AR Resonance piece (not the reason I got better), but it changed the way I approached the trombone. So I'm a lot more relaxed when I play high. It was more of a change with my approach, but I don't know if I would have done that without changing mouthpieces.

[MrHCinDE]

For me the key to improving Ab's was tuning. I spent years splitting Ab's on a regular basis until I figured out I wasn't sure where to place the note, in terms of slide position and hearing the note before playing it. I had been trying to play it quite high for some unexplained reason. Practice with a tuner, playing melodies in octaves and working on the upper range (at least 4-5 tones higher) all helped.

Recently, after much work in the past to fix this, when playing something with quite a few Ab's in octaves with the 1st trumpet the problem reoccured. The trumpet was tending to play sharp and I followed him upwards with an increased likelihood of split notes. When I practiced at home with the tuner I could play much more accurately than in the tutti practice. When I adjusted the slide to centre the note to be in tune with the trumpet I had big trouble playing a clean Ab as it was no longer in the 'right place' for my ear. After a particularly troublesome rehearsal we spent 10 mins working on the Ab together and came to a consensus. He came down a bit, I moved up a bit and the end result was acceptable. This is just normal ensemble playing which people, myself included, sometimes take for granted and blame the gear rather than fixing the root problem.

I had adjusted my gear to help a bit by tightening the tuning slide brace which helped a little bit, making the instrument a bit more forgiving until we'd sorted the tuning, but by far the biggest difference came through that 10 min practice with the trumpeter and the realization that we had to agree on some common tuning. In the end, the gear wasn't the problem, but adjusting it helped a little bit until I'd fixed the root cause.

[LIBrassCo]

I have the same kind of issue with 1 note on one of my horns as well. I'm still not sure if its the horn or not, but I was able to practice my way through it. Still have to give a a little extra effort to make it speak as clearly as any other note on the horn, but it has become doable.

[Neo Bri]

Welcome to the club. I've never liked high Ab. But I play it in 1st and it's great there.

[paulyg]

Welcome to the club. I've never liked high Ab. But I play it in 1st and it's great there.

The Ab in 1st is SO FLAT. I play regularly with an old professional who STILL, after 30+ years, recounts a story of an individual who played the Mozart Requiem Tuba Mirum Ab in 1st. DO NOT PLAY THE Ab IN 1ST POSITION. The difference in pitch IS noticeable and you WILL suffer consequences as a result.

[Doug Elliott]

Depends on where you play 1st position - I know that Neo Bri plays extended positions as I do, and that leaves plenty of room to pull in to tune it. I never use Ab in 1st myself, but there are plenty of people who do.

Then there's the fact that it's out of tune compared to equal temperment - but in just intonation it IS in tune, by definition as a harmonic of the fundamental.

[Neo Bri]

Welcome to the club. I've never liked high Ab. But I play it in 1st and it's great there.

The Ab in 1st is SO FLAT. I play regularly with an old professional who STILL, after 30+ years, recounts a story of an individual who played the Mozart Requiem Tuba Mirum Ab in 1st. DO NOT PLAY THE Ab IN 1ST POSITION. The difference in pitch IS noticeable and you WILL suffer consequences as a result.

Not to brag, but I did advance to the finals in the Naval Academy Band playing the Mozart requiem...with the Ab in first. It's a Bb7 arpeggio so it works pretty well in first as is, and particularly with extended positions like Doug said. It's just just a question of how you set up to play. The only real point I was making is that there is a huge difference (for me) with the playability of 1st vs. 3rd for that horn. And for me it's like that on every tenor I've played. It's fine on every bass I play, and the equivalent partial on alto (High Db in 3rd) is fine, too.

Weird.

[harrisonreed]

The Ab in 1st is SO FLAT. I play regularly with an old professional who STILL, after 30+ years, recounts a story of an individual who played the Mozart Requiem Tuba Mirum Ab in 1st. DO NOT PLAY THE Ab IN 1ST POSITION. The difference in pitch IS noticeable and you WILL suffer consequences as a result.

Hahaha! Such CAPS! Much scare!

Ab in that partial is only flat if you tune your trombone up like a n00b and play your Bb up on the bumpers.

That isn't to say that you can't be a fantastic player and still tune your trombone like a total n00b. There are lots!

[paulyg]

The Ab in 1st is SO FLAT. I play regularly with an old professional who STILL, after 30+ years, recounts a story of an individual who played the Mozart Requiem Tuba Mirum Ab in 1st. DO NOT PLAY THE Ab IN 1ST POSITION. The difference in pitch IS noticeable and you WILL suffer consequences as a result.

Hahaha! Such CAPS! Much scare!

Ab in that partial is only flat if you tune your trombone up like a n00b and play your Bb up on the bumpers.

That isn't to say that you can't be a fantastic player and still tune your trombone like a total n00b. There are lots!

SORRY FOR THE CAPS. I feel strongly about this. I have yet to hear anyone play that particular arpeggio in tune using the first position Ab. While theoretically it will sound a consonant dominant seventh, horns vary widely in their particular tuning tendencies, and this partial tends to be far too flat even for a justly tuned dominant seventh.

[imsevimse]

The Ab in 1st is SO FLAT. I play regularly with an old professional who STILL, after 30+ years, recounts a story of an individual who played the Mozart Requiem Tuba Mirum Ab in 1st. DO NOT PLAY THE Ab IN 1ST POSITION. The difference in pitch IS noticeable and you WILL suffer consequences as a result.

Hahaha! Such CAPS! Much scare!

Ab in that partial is only flat if you tune your trombone up like a n00b and play your Bb up on the bumpers.

That isn't to say that you can't be a fantastic player and still tune your trombone like a total n00b. There are lots!

A noob may tune at the bumper, that's true, but there are only certain circumstances when Ab can be played in first position if you do not play with "very long" positions. I too play with long positions. My b is right where the slide falls of which still does not give an Ab in first, unless as Doug says it fits that particular context of playing a minor 7:th or it is the third in a Fb-major/E-major chord, that might work too. You probably do not use 7th position in tune if you can make Ab work in 1st position in every situation if you do not bend one of the two positions (1st or 7th) in tune. I do think literature never teach Ab in first in any book I've read unless the special context of the tuba mirum, where I've heard it said before.

I'm no barock trombone player but the fact a barock trombone is built differently and has no lead pipe might make some positions line up differently compared to a modern trombone. It may or may not help an Ab in first, maybe someone who knows about this could provide information in the thread?

I've also heard the Ab be played in first in the David concerto arpeggio in the beginning and in improvised jazz solos. In David it is a Bb7 arpeggio and so fast it makes the context right, and in a jazz solo it might just add to the feeling of the blues. As Harrison said you should not tune the Bb against the bumper ever, and that is "noob" but I do not think it is a good thing to teach Ab in first either as the common position for this note because it makes you loose 7th position.

If you at one point in your career choose to tune you're instrument a way that is very special to your individual needs and beliefs it is fine. Anything goes if you know what you are doing. When you are a pro anything that puts money in your pocket is right.

When it comes to the discussion about long positions I think players fall into at least four categories.
1. At the bumper - Bb at the bumper which is noob-stuff as it does not allow adjustments for flat notes on first position.
2. Away from the bumper - about one and a half cm off the bumper to allow adjustments on first position.
3. Long positions - you tune the first position in a way the 7th position is at the very tip of your slide. It enables even bigger adjustments and also make it possible to use slide vibrato on first position
4. Very long positions - you tune the first position in a way you have no in-tune 7th position. Beside the advantages above I do not know the exact reason, but it could be convinient to have the Ab on first. It works on a trombone with a trigger and if you never use 7th position. I personally don't see the need for this.

/Tom

[brassmedic]

Ugh. Seriously, guys? This is like the worst of the trombone forum in concentrated form.

[imsevimse]

Ugh. Seriously, guys? This is like the worst of the trombone forum in concentrated form.

That statement could be said about anything here, and exactly why is it especially the worst in this case?

/Tom

[baileyman]

Currently practicing scales and other patterns through Ab in 1. Gets around pretty well. Great to have two paths through Ab available.

[timothy42b]

When it comes to the discussion about long positions I think players fall into at least four categories.
1. At the bumper - Bb at the bumper which is noob-stuff as it does not allow adjustments for flat notes on first position.
2. Away from the bumper - about one and a half cm off the bumper to allow adjustments on first position.
3. Long positions - you tune the first position in a way the 7th position is at the very tip of your slide. It enables even bigger adjustments and also make it possible to use slide vibrato on first position
4. Very long positions - you tune the first position in a way you have no in-tune 7th position. Beside the advantages above I do not know the exact reason, but it could be convince to have the Ab on first. It works on a trombone with a trigger and if you never use 7th position. I personally don't see the need for this.

/Tom

5. Push tuning slide all the way in and leave it there.

Depending on context that might also equal any one of your 1 - 4 categories, I guess. But it demands much less thought.

[harrisonreed]

Ugh. Seriously, guys? This is like the worst of the trombone forum in concentrated form.

How? Plenty of people play long on the slide. Be open to other possibilities!

At least quote who you're talking about.

[Neo Bri]

When it comes to the discussion about long positions I think players fall into at least four categories.
1. At the bumper - Bb at the bumper which is noob-stuff as it does not allow adjustments for flat notes on first position.
2. Away from the bumper - about one and a half cm off the bumper to allow adjustments on first position.
3. Long positions - you tune the first position in a way the 7th position is at the very tip of your slide. It enables even bigger adjustments and also make it possible to use slide vibrato on first position
4. Very long positions - you tune the first position in a way you have no in-tune 7th position. Beside the advantages above I do not know the exact reason, but it could be convince to have the Ab on first. It works on a trombone with a trigger and if you never use 7th position. I personally don't see the need for this.

/Tom

5. Push tuning slide all the way in and leave it there.

Depending on context that might also equal any one of your 1 - 4 categories, I guess. But it demands much less thought.

That's exactly what I do. Just push it in and play in tune (or try, anyway). And as for the David Concertino, I also advocate Ab in first with my students. And yes, the Ab in 1st in the Mozart can even be in tune on a tuner if that's your cup of tea, if you play with your main slide all the way in and your particular horn allows it.

And let's keep the conversation nice, all. Cool to have lots of opinions, but no need to accuse people of being noobs, etc.

Thanks, folks!

[LeTromboniste]

I'm no barock trombone player but the fact a barock trombone is built differently and has no lead pipe might make some positions line up differently compared to a modern trombone. It may or may not help an Ab in first, maybe someone who knows about this could provide information in the thread?

Tried two nearly identical 16th century trombones earlier this month - one of them had it sharp enough that it barely needed to be brought in at all, yet on the other one, no way, it was just too flat. Of course neither of them is in exact original condition, so hard to say. My guess is it would vary considerably from one instrument to the other, just like modern sackbut replicas and modern trombones.

Keep in mind that on a baroque trombone, in most contexts that note would be a G, not an Ab, as we consider the instrument to be in A at a=466, not in Bb. In the tuning system we use, G usually needs to be somewhat higher than in equal temperament (by about 7 cents), so it can be problematic to play it in 1st even when it's sharp enough on the horn that it would otherwise work as an Ab at 440 equal.



I do seem to remember reading and hearing that it is a long-standing tradition with Viennese trombonists to play the Tuba Mirum arpeggio all in 1st position?

[heinzgries]

remove the bumper and put a spring in to the barrel, like old german trombones, so you can correct 1th position easily

[brassmedic]

Ugh. Seriously, guys? This is like the worst of the trombone forum in concentrated form.

How? Plenty of people play long on the slide. Be open to other possibilities!

At least quote who you're talking about.

Strawman argument.

Also, quite ironic that you are telling people to "be open to other possibilities" right after calling other players "noobs" because they don't play the same way you do.

[brassmedic]

I do seem to remember reading and hearing that it is a long-standing tradition with Viennese trombonists to play the Tuba Mirum arpeggio all in 1st position?

It arpeggiates a Dom. 7 chord, so in just intonation the Ab should be 31 cents flat, right?

[LeTromboniste]

It arpeggiates a Dom. 7 chord, so in just intonation the Ab should be 31 cents flat, right?

"should"? That's open to debate. I mean, if you're playing in just intonation as a tuning system, yes sure. But you can't play Mozart in "just intonation".

It can be nice when everything is pure within the chord of course. But there are also good arguments against pure sevenths.

For instance a dominant seventh loses a lot of its harmonic tension when the seventh is perfectly tuned to the root. But harmonic tension in the dominant is what drives the momentum of the tonal system. So one could argue that pure 7ths may not be entirely desirable in this context.

Then there's also the issue that a pure seventh is a bad third above the fifth, and will basically sound out of tune with something either way.

Plus it's just so far from its tempered version that it can easily sound melodically off.

[brassmedic]

It arpeggiates a Dom. 7 chord, so in just intonation the Ab should be 31 cents flat, right?

"should"? That's open to debate. I mean, if you're playing in just intonation as a tuning system, yes sure.

Well that is what I wrote.

But you can't play Mozart in "just intonation".

Not sure I agree with that. Sure, early music ensembles will use different tuning systems, but most modern symphony orchestras do not alter the tuning system when they perform Mozart.

It can be nice when everything is pure within the chord of course. But there are also good arguments against pure sevenths.

For instance a dominant seventh loses a lot of its harmonic tension when the seventh is perfectly tuned to the root.

Not sure what you mean by "perfectly tuned to the root".

But harmonic tension in the dominant is what drives the momentum of the tonal system. So one could argue that pure 7ths may not be entirely desirable in this context.

Then there's also the issue that a pure seventh is a bad third above the fifth, and will basically sound out of tune with something either way.

Plus it's just so far from its tempered version that it can easily sound melodically off.

Good points.

Back to Vienna, Ab certainly has been played in 1st.



Notice that he holds the slide in EXACTLY the same place as the other partials in that series. Noah found this video. I can't tell, but I think he said that is a Pfretzschner trombone, one of which Noah happens to have at The Brass Ark. I tried playing those notes on it with a tuner, and the Ab is right in tune in 1st position (it's actually a tiny bit sharp!). So that would seem to be a good explanation of why players in Vienna do or did that - that note isn't out of tune on their instruments.

[harrisonreed]

But you can't play Mozart in "just intonation".

Not sure I agree with that. Sure, early music ensembles will use different tuning systems, but most modern symphony orchestras do not alter the tuning system when they perform Mozart.

I don't think you can play Mozart in "just intonation" either. 5-limit breaks down as soon as you move away from the key you started in. For example, how do you reconcile a key change where there is a held note over the change? If a lowered held 3rd becomes the root during the key change, all the fractions that make your intervals stay the same, but based on a note that is now significantly lowered. Good luck for the continuo harpsichord in your classical orchestra...
Mozart was composing for 12-TET.

Lowering the 3rd and raising the 5th might happen subconsciously, along with pythagorean intervals for linear melodic lines, but that isn't really "just intonation", just individually tempered chords within 12tet, and melodically tempered linear melodies.

Another poster on this forum has been posting videos of actual just intonation pieces that change keys. Orchestras are not doing what he describes in those posts.

Earlier music uses those unfamiliar-to-the-modern-ear "comma meantone" temperaments because that music doesn't change keys. Playing in those temperaments on trombone or other instruments is easier if you have a continuo playing on organ or another keyed instrument.

That's why 12TET music was such a big deal.

[brassmedic]

Guys...guys. I'm not talking about playing a just intonation scale, I'm simply referring to the practice of altering chord tones to make chords sound more sonorous, which all professional musicians that I know or know of (excepting those who play fixed pitch or pitchless instruments) do as a matter of course. Like lowering the 3rd of a major triad. This is most certainly not "subconscious". It is extremely conscious. Surely you've heard of this.

[Retrobone]

Notice that he holds the slide in EXACTLY the same place as the other partials in that series. Noah found this video. I can't tell, but I think he said that is a Pfretzschner trombone, one of which Noah happens to have at The Brass Ark.

FWIW this Solti film from 1991 featured then VPO principal Rudolf Josel who played always on a Holton TR 150 and Schilke 53. I notice he plays 1st postion generally slightly extended. And the VPO plays at aroung a=445 or something very high in any case...and in retirement he still plays Ab in first!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCXfOM1GC_U
I also always play the Ab in first when I play the Tuba Mirum on a Meinl Classical trombone. For an audtion i would use 3rd.
Got two Tuba mirums coming up. One on historic instrument and the orther on modern. I might give it a whirl in 1st on the Conn.
And on my Kruspe Model Weschke the Ab in first is perfectly in tune maybe even slightly sharp... Just that all the other partials are a bit funky. Function of that design.

Cheers

<Edit: Fixed Quote - BGuttman>

[timothy42b]

How was that video recorded? The audio quality seemed very impressive for a live performance - was that dubbed later? Nice find, I enjoyed that one.

[LIBrassCo]

So you guys play first slightly out from all the way in? That essentially makes a tuning slide pointless. Interesting.

[norbie2018]

Not really. You tune the Bb in first position slightly out; you still need to use your tuning slide to adjust that pitch. Some push their tuning all the way in and do all their tuning with chops and/or the hand slide. That makes the tuning slide pointless.

[LeTromboniste]

Guys...guys. I'm not talking about playing a just intonation scale, I'm simply referring to the practice of altering chord tones to make chords sound more sonorous, which all professional musicians that I know or know of (excepting those who play fixed pitch or pitchless instruments) do as a matter of course. Like lowering the 3rd of a major triad. This is most certainly not "subconscious". It is extremely conscious. Surely you've heard of this.

Well that's precisely why I said you're right Ab is 31 cents flat in just intonation but you can't play Mozart in just intonation.

Of course every orchestral trombonist lowers (whether it's a historic of modern orchestra) their 3rds and play triads as close to pure as possible when playing in whatever temperament, I think the rest of my previous post makes it clear I assumed you were referring to that. And by "tuned pure to the root" I meant the same as you, played so it lines up with the harmonics of the root of the chord.

[harrisonreed]

So you guys play first slightly out from all the way in? That essentially makes a tuning slide pointless. Interesting.

Not always. I tune so that Ab is in tune with the edge of the bell, which means the main tuning slide is pushed in all the way indoors, and also extends all the positions out. I'll still adjust the tuning slide outside or in a really hot room.

Cutting the straight tubes a bit on the tuning slide would allow for playing in really cold rooms or outdoors on really cold days.

Storytime:
At ATW one of the sales reps tried pulling the tuning slide back out while I was holding it and playtesting it, because I had pushed it all the way in. I immediately pushed it back in and played a few notes and we tested it out on a tuner. We started talking about this very issue. Another rep from a different company came by because he was also listening and said that that way of playing long on the slide was "old school. They stopped putting springs in so the tuning has changed".

But that's just it. Every trombone I've ever played plays "like the springs were there originally, but then they stopped putting them in". Kings are a great example. Tune your Ab at the bell, and you get some crazy room for slide vibrato in 1st.

All that tuning slide is for is to make sure the B doesn't fall off the end of your slide.

[LeTromboniste]

Mozart was composing for 12-TET.

Wouldn't be so definitive. I'm sure not every organ in Vienna, let alone smaller towns around was in 12-TET in Mozart's time - there were a number of "well- tempered" tunings aside from equal temperament in the 18th and 19th century and organs in meantone that were still in use.

Earlier music uses those unfamiliar-to-the-modern-ear "comma meantone" temperaments because that music doesn't change keys.

You're not wrong, since earlier music used modes, not keys, and you only need 2 transpositions to play the 12 modes they had (I find it neat that tonal music mirrors that by using 12 transpositions but only 2 modes!). So yes earlier music doesn't change keys...

...except when it does! You can actually change keys in 1/4 comma meantone and go pretty far (and yes they sometimes did, plus the organists were used to transpose to any position to accommodate the singers - boy have things not changed.....). You can have split keys and split frets for Eb/D# and Ab/G# and have 14 notes per octave, which gives you quite a bit of room to modulate, plus you've got pure thirds throughout and microtones, both built into the system. How cool is that!

Actually Mozart Requiem could (not saying it should) be played in meantone - not a lot of A#, Db and Gb or double flats or sharps in Mozart.


There's another name for 12-TET, it's 1/12 comma meantone. I guess not all meantones are created equal

[harrisonreed]

Your knowledge of early music is way beyond what I've learned. But surely Mozart was using his (then) modern 12TET piano-forte to compose and perform?

[LeTromboniste]

Back on topic of high Ab, yes German trombones usually have long springs and some have enough room to get a good Ab in 1st, yet not all do. And before that, you see 17th century sources that say 1st position is "two finger widths" out (3-4 cm), but you don't find that Ab or G in first on position charts, and on some horns even tuning to a long first position won't give you a good Ab in first. I'm pretty sure it has always varied a lot from one instrument to the other.

[LeTromboniste]

Your knowledge of early music is way beyond what I've learned. But surely Mozart was using his (then) modern 12TET piano-forte to compose and perform?

Two questions :
1) Do we know for a fact that his piano was tuned in 12TET? I'm not a specialist of fortepianos or of Mozart biography, I really don't know. I'm curious.

2) Does it matter? He lived in a world where many instruments were definitely not tuned equal. He composed the Great Mass in C minor in Vienna, let's say sitting at his piano tuned (let's assume) equal tempered in a Viennese pitch of circa a=425-435, but it's written to be performed in Salzburg, in an unequal tuning and at a=460-470. What matters most, the tuning of his piano or the performance tuning he could expect? My point is, when you play Mozart Requiem in a church, you tune to the organ, whatever pitch and temperament it's in (and it won't be the same in June as it was in December!). And Mozart didn't know who commissioned his Requiem, for all he knew it could have been for a smaller, remote court chapel with an organ still tuned in meantone. (Again not suggesting we do that now but it was at least remotely in the realm of possibilities of performance practice at the time)

There were other tunings invented long after equal temperament that likely saw some use in the 18th and 19th century, but didn't catch on.

Sorry that we are highjacking this thread!

[brassmedic]

Of course every orchestral trombonist lowers (whether it's a historic of modern orchestra) their 3rds and play triads as close to pure as possible when playing in whatever temperament

Not just triads - all chords, as in this chart:

f95d5a96cfda78c36a5f74b345c986bf.jpg

This is what professional musicians talk about when they discuss "playing in tune". As an example, Ralph Sauer mentions, on his orchestral excerpts recording, raising the 5th slightly in a minor triad and lowering the seventh a lot in a dominant chord. Most refer to it as "just intonation". I guess you are ascribing a different meaning to those words, because your comment that one can't do that in Mozart doesn't make sense to me. I suspect we're just talking past each other.

[harrisonreed]

Yes, tempering chords within 12TET will sound nice and in tune (again, musicians should just hear those intervals and do it subconsciously) but that isn't really JI. In JI, there is an infinite cycle of fifths where your C=0 will be a different C when you make the journey back to it. That's why you aren't really using JI when you play anything that changes keys, but you probably are using a form of JI in early music.

This came up in a brass quintet where a "professional musician", our tuba player, who went on and on about JI, tempered all of his notes whenever he left the root of the chord. There were a couple of pieces where we would just fall apart because in his head he'd return to a root and it'd be 30c off.

Computers can play 12TET music in JI. It sounds weird. "Professional Musicians" can temper chords until the cows come home, but god help the ensemble when basses leave 12TET.

[LeTromboniste]

Of course every orchestral trombonist lowers (whether it's a historic of modern orchestra) their 3rds and play triads as close to pure as possible when playing in whatever temperament

Not just triads - all chords, as in this chart:

f95d5a96cfda78c36a5f74b345c986bf.jpg

This is what professional musicians talk about when they discuss "playing in tune". As an example, Ralph Sauer mentions, on his orchestral excerpts recording, raising the 5th slightly in a minor triad and lowering the seventh a lot in a dominant chord. Most refer to it as "just intonation". I guess you are ascribing a different meaning to those words, because your comment that one can't do that in Mozart doesn't make sense to me.

Yes I know what professional musicians talk about when we talk about playing in tune, thanks (and many non professional musicians also talk about it too!).

Again, we agree. When Harrison and I say you can't play Mozart in just intonation, we are not talking about adjusting notes to play in tune. "Just intonation" is a tuning system (actually a family of tuning systems, really), and it's not what you describe, it's something entirely different.

What you describe and indeed what we all use when we play in a tempered tuning, I like to call playing pure chords over an equal tempered bass, but I don't think it has any official name, it's just usually called playing in tune. It's not called just intonation, that's for sure.

We all agree about simple intervals that come up early in the harmonic series of the root. in an equal tempered environment major thirds of chords should be lowered 14 cents (13.7 in fact), fifths should be raised 2 cents, no debate. Things get a bit problematic with intervals that have more than one possible definitions for their pure tuning. Minor thirds should be generally raised, although the exact amount can vary according to the context and the chord's voicing, because those will define what it's most noticeably interacting with. (Overtones of the root? Of the fifth? Of the seventh?)

Sevenths get even murkier for the same reasons and for those I outlined before. Should it be tuned according the the harmonic series of the root, or as a a good third above the fifth (those two versions can be virtually a quarter tone apart by the way, depending on what definition of a good minor third you use)? Does it make sense in a tonal context to have the dominant loose some of its harmonic tension? Should we play a note that is adjusted so far out of its usual position that it is no longer recognized as the same note?

I don't know if I know anyone who really plays their minor sevenths 31 cents flat in orchestral music. Maybe some think they do, and maybe at some moments they actually do, but on systematically on every minor seventh? I don't think so.

[brassmedic]

Yes, tempering chords within 12TET will sound nice and in tune (again, musicians should just hear those intervals and do it subconsciously) but that isn't really JI.

Then what would you call it?

This came up in a brass quintet where a "professional musician", our tuba player, who went on and on about JI, tempered all of his notes whenever he left the root of the chord. There were a couple of pieces where we would just fall apart because in his head he'd return to a root and it'd be 30c off.

That just sounds like someone who has trouble playing in tune. Can't say I've ever experienced anyone getting thrown off when adjusting a chord tone and being unable to return to a root because of it.

[harrisonreed]

What Maximilien said. It's not JI.

That tuba player went down the JI road, with computer generated chords and long tones, etc. His ears were jacked after that.

[LeTromboniste]

Yes, tempering chords within 12TET will sound nice and in tune (again, musicians should just hear those intervals and do it subconsciously) but that isn't really JI. In JI, there is an infinite cycle of fifths where your C=0 will be a different C when you make the journey back to it. That's why you aren't really using JI when you play anything that changes keys, but you probably are using a form of JI in early music.

Yes, except the early music part. Or depending how early you mean. They were already very concerned with this in the 15th and early 16th century when music had reached a point where just using Pythagorean tuning and adjusting chords (the way we do now with equal temperament) was no longer satisfactory. One solution would be to try just singing everything pure, but then the pitch drifts almost immediately and you can't sing pure intervals both melodically and harmonically so it's not super practical - in fact there are letters and accounts and even musical puzzles describing situations very much like your brass quintet story! And accounts praising certain choirs who were able to not drift (which means they weren't singing everything pure!)

They settled quite early on 1/4 comma meantone, and that is very much not a form of JI.