The Best Schools for Orchestral Trombonists

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:23 pm

I don't know whether this sort of thing exists or not, but I started thinking about what the best schools for orchestrally-oriented trombonists would be. "If I want to get a job, where should I study?" In an hour or two, I created this - http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p_b-ZtcpsnGpQQRqwRxwtDg - a completely unscientific spreadsheet created by combing the Internet. I went around to the websites of the well-respected orchestras I could think of off the top of my head, looked at the trombonists' biographies, and compiled as much as I could find about where they went to school and who they studied with. Obviously, this list is subjective and incomplete, but I thought it was interesting.

It's undergrad and grad combined, since many people didn't specify in their biographies.

Who/what orchestras have I forgotten, and does this look like it might be useful? Does this kind of thing exist somewhere else?

EDIT: A shorter link - http://tinyurl.com/2h45bk

ttf_Thomas Matta · Post by **ttf_Thomas Matta** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:11 pm

At the very least, it is an interesting spreadsheet project.

What impresses me isn't the Julliards and Eastmans, but the smaller public/state schools, etc. A lot of great players spent time at some of those lesser-known institutions, at least for their undergrad experience...

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:20 pm

John Kitzman, principal trombone of Dallas Symphony went to Michigan
Lee Rogers principal on Kennedy Center Opera Orchestra went to SMU and so did Darren McHenry, bass trombone in Dallas Symphony

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:46 pm

Thanks for the information - it should be updated now.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:38 pm

Eric Carlson second trombonist of Philadelphia also studied at Wheaton ( I see you have Doug Yeo down ).

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:45 pm

Thanks, Tamara.

I don't know how easy it is to see, but there's a second page that lists what I could find about who studied with who. I find it interesting that Arnold Jacobs beats out almost all the trombone players on the list!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:03 pm

Another thing you might check out is the ITA competition results, specifically the Haney competition since it's mainly excerpts. These students might not have jobs right now, but they're obviously doing well enough to be respected by some big name players and could be getting a job in the future.

For example, the judges this year were:
Mark Fishersecond trombonist, Chicago Lyric Opera Orchestra
Ralph Sauerprincipal trombonist (retired), Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra
Steve Witserprincipal trombonist, Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:01 pm

Jeff Dee, bass trombone in Jacksonville, Phil Graham, 2nd trombone in Dallas, Jamie Box, principal trombone in Montreal, Dan Brady, bass trombone in the "President's Own", Curt Star, trombone at West Point, and Jim Cumiskey, 2nd trombone of Charleston, are a few more SMU alums I can think of.

I know that Larry Zalkind, principal trombone of the Utah Symphony went to Michigan. Ilan Morgenstern, new bass trombonist of San Antonio and runner-up to about everything else in the past year, is finishing up at Michigan.

All schools have a long bragging list, which is why it just goes to show that you can improve anywhere you go. You just need to take your work ethic, work hard, have great instruction, work hard, and work hard.

I think that one reason that the "better schools" have so many people that land jobs is since they are considered "better schools," they draw the students that have the most talent AND an incredible work ethic. And since they are all at the school together, it creates a great environment where everyone is pushing each other and holding each others playing accountable. I can imagine it is harder to keep an intense focus if you aren't in an environment where you are constantly being technically and musically challenged.

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:12 pm

The larger music schools have depth in their program. You will find that not only is the trombone professor good, but so are the violin, percussion, etc... professors. This allows for outstanding ensembles to play in. I think as an undergraduate, great ensembles are not as important; most students are still working on getting a good sense of mechanics. As a graduate student, how you interpret begins to become more important. A large portion of this learning goes on in ensemble playing.

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:35 am

Thanks!

RGbasstrb, I looked up Larry Zalkind's biography on his website to see who his teachers were, and it says he attended USC for his undergrad and grad work - did he attend Michigan some other time (it wasn't mentioned in his bio)?

If you search Google for "orchestral trombonists," this is the first result!

ttf_RGbasstrb · Post by **ttf_RGbasstrb** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm

My bad, USC is correct for Zalkind...

Juilliard - Amanda Stewart (San Antonio), Charles Reneau (Oregon), the entire Buffalo Philharmonic trombone section, Ko-ichiro Yamamoto (Seattle), Jeff Gray (Syracuse/Grant Park)

SMU - Ronnie Wilson and Dennis Bubert (Fort Worth)

UNT - Jeremy Wilson (Vienna)

Rutgers - George Curran (Atlanta)

Yale - Don Harwood (NYP)

Central Michigan - Randy Hawes

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:17 pm

Jeremy Wilson went to Tennessee before he came to UNT.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:00 pm

clarification on Mr. Zalkind--he was a student at U-M during the 1980-81 academic year. During that year he auditioned for Philadelphia (finalist) and Utah SO (principal since then)

add Roger Oyster (KC Phil) from Michigan...

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:33 pm

I'm noticing Yale mentioned with regard to several retirement-age top level players. Did these gentlemen study with Mr. Swallow, or if not who was the trombone professor at Yale prior (I do not know when Mr. Swallow joined the faculty there)?

On that note, one can add Hall Goff of the San Francisco Ballet Orchestra, another Yale grad, and also Scott Cranston of the New Haven Symphony. (I'm not sure what sort of a cutoff you've intended as to the "prestige" factor here.)

ttf_JP · Post by **ttf_JP** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:14 pm

That is a wonderful compilation. I think it does indicate the strengths of some school.

But, look down the list of how many schools had "1" orchestral somebody and who those somebodies are. Tells its own story.

I think that some of the credit belongs to the college, but I think most of the credit goes to experience. When I was in college, players were out getting the work, by the time I finished grad schools, those players had years of experience in professional orchestras and were moving up the ladder.

To be sure, especially now, there are fantastic prepatory programs in colleges around the country.

But, I think at the end of the day, it is not where you go to school--it is how good you really are, who you have studied privately with, and how many people are going to go to bat for you (personal and phone call recommendations, bringing you to their work as a sub or extra, conductors who have heard your playing, etc.)

School is valuable, it is not a substitute for experience. Especially in performance related activities of any artistic endeavor.

I know some people who got work because of where they went to school, I know a lot more people who got work because of who they are, what they've done, and who they know.

ttf_MaestroHound · Post by **ttf_MaestroHound** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:38 pm

Some more Indiana Hoosiers that I can think of off of my head;

Stephen Fissel (bass, Seattle)
Fabio Sampo (Italy)
Peter Ellefson (ex-Seattle, was in Doctoral program when he got the job)
Weston Sprott (2nd, MET, transferred to Curtis)
JoDee Davis (2nd, Santa Fe Opera)
Lloyd Takamoto (Osaka Phil. (Japan))

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 pm

Thanks for all the responses - I think I added everyone.

The "prestige" cutoff I had in mind was orchestras that paid like a decent full-time job. 40-50 week seasons, that kind of thing. The kind of job that some people would be happy settling down with, an orchestra that could pay someone enough to live on (if those exist). I'm not sure exactly which orchestras that would be - outside of the big names, I haven't been exposed to the orchestral world long enough to pick up on exactly what's what.

ttf_djdekok · Post by **ttf_djdekok** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:45 am

Quote from: JP on Feb 11, 2008, 06:14PMThat is a wonderful compilation. I think it does indicate the strengths of some school.

But, look down the list of how many schools had "1" orchestral somebody and who those somebodies are. Tells its own story.

I think that some of the credit belongs to the college, but I think most of the credit goes to experience. When I was in college, players were out getting the work, by the time I finished grad schools, those players had years of experience in professional orchestras and were moving up the ladder.

To be sure, especially now, there are fantastic prepatory programs in colleges around the country.

But, I think at the end of the day, it is not where you go to school--it is how good you really are, who you have studied privately with, and how many people are going to go to bat for you (personal and phone call recommendations, bringing you to their work as a sub or extra, conductors who have heard your playing, etc.)

School is valuable, it is not a substitute for experience. Especially in performance related activities of any artistic endeavor.

I know some people who got work because of where they went to school, I know a lot more people who got work because of who they are, what they've done, and who they know.
being a big fish in a small pond does have its advantages...plus if you say "yes" to enough gigs, SOMEONE will notice...

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:12 pm

I think it would be interesting if you could also include the time period during which these 'pros' attended their respective universities/conservatories.

P.S. - You have Pete Ellefson listed twice in Joseph Alessi's "By Teacher" group.

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:11 pm

Thanks for the correction!

When I have a little bit of time, I think I'm going to standardize this a bit and look at the biographies for members of ICSOM orchestras - http://www.icsom.org/orchestras.html. Would that pretty much cover the full-time gigs?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:25 pm

Quote from: shouck on Feb 18, 2008, 05:11PMThanks for the correction!

When I have a little bit of time, I think I'm going to standardize this a bit and look at the biographies for members of ICSOM orchestras - http://www.icsom.org/orchestras.html. Would that pretty much cover the full-time gigs?

Any of the full-time orchestras that have AFM contracts. You will not see the per-service groups, which are normally under ROPA.

Yu will not get many of the non-US orchestras, or orchestras without Union contracts (and there are a few).

And certainly not me, since I play in a semi-pro (we get a little for the performance) orchestra.

ttf_BlueTrombonist · Post by **ttf_BlueTrombonist** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:13 pm

Even more surprising is some of the big schools are underrepresented (Cleveland for example).

ttf_TheFreak90 · Post by **ttf_TheFreak90** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:11 pm

Rick Stout should be added to the Teacher list; he taught Ward Stare of the Chicago Lyric Opera

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:12 pm

I'm updating this list now - I've added places like the Interlochen Arts Academy and Tanglewood to the list, too.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:10 pm

You might want to also add Pat Herb (Undergrad at Boise State, Professional Studies and orchestral performance at Manhattan School of Music/Steve Norrell) and Luis Fred (undergrad at IU, masters at Manhattan School of Music with David Finlayson and Steve Norrell).

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:55 pm

Okay, I'm almost done going through the ICSOM list of orchestras. If you see that I've left anyone off, particularly in the "By Teacher" and "Summer Festivals/Other" categories, just let me know and I'll update it.

I've added the trombonists from the DC military bands (what I could find) and I added a category for summer festivals (Tanglewood, Aspen, etc.). Here it is, one more time:

By College: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p_b-ZtcpsnGpQQRqwRxwtDg&gid=0

By Teacher: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p_b-ZtcpsnGpQQRqwRxwtDg&gid=1

Summer Festivals/Other: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p_b-ZtcpsnGpQQRqwRxwtDg&gid=3

Enjoy!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:50 pm

WOW !!!

You are to be commended for this project. This is an amazing resource. Thank you and congrats on a job well done.

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:16 pm

I finished going through the list of orchestras. Several of the orchestras did not have biographies of their musicians, or they had biographies of one of the trombonists and not the others, or the biographies listed the school but not the teacher, etc. So the list is not definitive, but I think there are some interesting trends. The Army Band, "Pershing's Own," did not have any biographies listed, so any information on them would be appreciated. If you give me information, I'll continue to add it. Thanks for all the contributions, and more are always welcome!

ttf_TheFreak90 · Post by **ttf_TheFreak90** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:12 pm

Brent Phillips - Harrisburg SO- attended Rice University and studied with Jim Pedigo, David Waters and David Kirk.
Tim Soberick - Harrisburg SO - went to Curtis, studying with Glenn Dodson
Phil McClelland - Harrisburg SO - teaches at Temple - went to Curtis as well, studying with Dee Stewart and Henry Smith

Is this list only supposed to have modern orchestral trombonists or can it include those already retired?

ttf_TheFreak90 · Post by **ttf_TheFreak90** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:20 pm

ahhh, full time orchestras. well brent phillips did play in the president's own marine band.

ttf_djdekok · Post by **ttf_djdekok** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:33 am

Quote from: shouck on Mar 21, 2008, 01:16PMI finished going through the list of orchestras. Several of the orchestras did not have biographies of their musicians, or they had biographies of one of the trombonists and not the others, or the biographies listed the school but not the teacher, etc. So the list is not definitive, but I think there are some interesting trends. The Army Band, "Pershing's Own," did not have any biographies listed, so any information on them would be appreciated. If you give me information, I'll continue to add it. Thanks for all the contributions, and more are always welcome!

Army Band--Darryl Buning (Bass bone)--Michigan State

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:18 am

I added Darryl Buning. Keep it coming - this list is coming along well.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:29 pm

If you want a true small school gem... look no further than Lebanon Valley College in Annville, PA. The trombone instructor is James Erdman, retired soloist from the President's Own. Great guy, great player with references and contacts all over the place. I am a Euph. player and he called Brian Bowman up during my lesson (who is an icon for euph.), even got me music straight from the marine band library, called arthur lehman (another euph icon) during my lesson, and of course visited and talked first had to Robert Isele (principal trombonist of president's own band prior to himself). You won't find a nicer person to take lessons from who truly teaches the "making music" side of... well.. making music!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:42 am

Hello, Since I performed as principal trombonist with the Grand Rapids Symphony for 24 years and now teach at Michigan State University, I'd like to add my name to these lists.

Ava Ordman(Grand Rapids Symphony and Cabrillo Music Festival Orchestra):
School- University of Michigan
Teachers- Glenn Smith, Arnold Jacobs, Frank Crisafuli, Glen Dodson, Mark McDunn

Thanks,
Ava

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:35 pm

Thanks so much for the information! I've added you to the list.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:24 am

The two trombonist from the vancouver symphony gordon cherry and gregory cox went to eastman and studied with remington.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:08 am

Quote from: JP on Feb 11, 2008, 06:14PMThat is a wonderful compilation. I think it does indicate the strengths of some school.

But, look down the list of how many schools had "1" orchestral somebody and who those somebodies are. Tells its own story.

I think that some of the credit belongs to the college, but I think most of the credit goes to experience. When I was in college, players were out getting the work, by the time I finished grad schools, those players had years of experience in professional orchestras and were moving up the ladder.

To be sure, especially now, there are fantastic prepatory programs in colleges around the country.

But, I think at the end of the day, it is not where you go to school--it is how good you really are, who you have studied privately with, and how many people are going to go to bat for you (personal and phone call recommendations, bringing you to their work as a sub or extra, conductors who have heard your playing, etc.)

School is valuable, it is not a substitute for experience. Especially in performance related activities of any artistic endeavor.

I know some people who got work because of where they went to school, I know a lot more people who got work because of who they are, what they've done, and who they know.

robert gray, when he was still teaching at illinois, told me to pick a teacher, not a school. it all comes down to how you play. (not a direct quote, but something we discussed in conversation).

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:14 am

Why not come to the UK....We have several colleges in london such as the Royal Academy of Music and to name just 2 of the Trombone Profs... Ian Bousfield,Dennis Wick.

ttf_djdekok · Post by **ttf_djdekok** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:27 pm

Quote from: vegasbound on Jan 16, 2009, 12:14AMWhy not come to the UK....We have several colleges in london such as the Royal Academy of Music and to name just 2 of the Trombone Profs... Ian Bousfield,Dennis Wick.

Who???

ttf_Bonious · Post by **ttf_Bonious** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:11 pm

Very interesting project. I would like to add that James Cumiskey also went to Juilliard and studied with Per Brevig. Thomas Riccobono Went to Eastman and studied with Dr. Marcellus and went to Penn state and studied with Mark Lusk. I would try contacting some of the big teachers and music schools and see what lists you can get from them.

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:53 pm

Thanks for the updates!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:45 am

Quote from: vegasbound on Jan 16, 2009, 12:14AMWhy not come to the UK....We have several colleges in london such as the Royal Academy of Music and to name just 2 of the Trombone Profs... Ian Bousfield,Dennis Wick.

1) The pound is still pretty strong in comparison.
2) Are people from the colonies even allowed to win jobs in the UK? I thought not.

On another note, Hall Goff is listed twice under Yale...he's a great trombonist and nice guy, but after all he is just one person!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed May 20, 2009 1:56 pm

Wow, thank you for this awesome resource! Just a couple suggestions:

1) Michael Brown, bass trombonist in the Louisiana Philharmonic, studied at Michigan and Rice before taking the job.

2) Jeremy Wilson studied with Don Hough at Tennessee before moving on to UNT.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:49 pm

Rick Howenstine (second trombone in Columbus Symphony) and Thomas Klaber (bass trombone Cleveland orch) both went to CCM

ttf_shouck · Post by **ttf_shouck** » Sat May 30, 2009 9:33 pm

Thanks for the information!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:11 pm

You had Jason Byerlotzer for San Francisco Conservatory. You should also add him under "Manhattan school of music", "Aspen Music Festival", and "Mark Lawrence"

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:15 am

Are people from the colinies allowed to win jobs?? How many apply?

A player from the colonies won the 2nd chair at Vienna!!

ttf_Trombone Samurai · Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:09 am

Quote from: vegasbound on Nov 28, 2009, 02:15AMAre people from the colinies allowed to win jobs?? How many apply?

A player from the colonies won the 2nd chair at Vienna!!

Keep in mind that Jeremy Wilson is the ONLY American in the entire Vienna philharmonic. And if I remember correctly, he was only invited to the audition because Ian Bousfield heard him play on a tape for a competition and invited him.

Sure it's possible, but it's very rare.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:31 pm

Barry Hearn:
Assistant Principal, National Symphony Orchestra

also went to:
U Illinois
MSM

Nathan Zgonc: Vancouver Symphony
San Fransisco Conservatory/MSM

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:04 pm

David Langlitz went to julliard he studied with Roger Smith, Glenn Dodson and Arnold Jacobs