Earl Williams Model 10

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:02 pm

The horn originally belonged to Karl DeKarske. John Noxon ended up buying the horn from his wife after his passing, and then sold it to me around 2008. John Noxon had John Sandhagen over at The Boneyard work his magic on the horn. Here is an email I received from John Sandhagen way back when I inquired about what all he had done to the horn.

“Hi Drew,

John found most of the bits needed like the male/female slide tenons, slide crook, hand slide braces. Mr DeKarske had a hacksaw and wasn't afraid to use it....

I fashioned the F lever, made a new brace tube receiver, got new Conn tubes, and put it all together. I gave John a Bach 50 short leadpipe...similar to what was in Bob Olson's Williams

What had happened to it was (besides the hacksaw) the Williams receiver was replaced with a Conn...so you could use a Conn slide and so with a shorter receiver you could use a Conn F lever. This also took over an inch out of the horn...probably was sharp and not much tuning slide available.

I went with everything Williams that I could...Conn Slide tubes...I think the reason that people put the Conn levers on was the ergonomics...I tried to make it similar to a Williams, but adjustable and easier on the hand.”

Mahalo.

Tbarh · Post by **Tbarh** » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:56 am

Incredibly interesting horn..

Wish I could afford..

Can i ask, why are You selling?

Trond

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:41 pm

Tbarh wrote: ↑Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:56 am Incredibly interesting horn..
Wish I could afford..
Can i ask, why are You selling?

Trond

No reason in particular. I don’t play it as much as it should be played. Most of my playing is done on a silver sonic duo gravis.

Leanit · Post by **Leanit** » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:59 pm

Nice to see one on the market, and that adapted valve section looks quite nice. Good luck on the sale!

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:39 am

Leanit wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:59 pm Nice to see one on the market, and that adapted valve section looks quite nice. Good luck on the sale!

Thanks!

Post by **blast** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:39 am

Leanit wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:59 pm Nice to see one on the market, and that adapted valve section looks quite nice. Good luck on the sale!

Adapted? That's a stock Holton valve section. As it cannot be secured at the gooseneck, I would wonder if it is the original valve. Does not detract from the basic horn.... in fact you could replace it with a double section without losing sleep. I would love to try it, but thankfully that is not possible.
Must be a nice Duo Gravis

Chris

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:23 am

OP if you don't mind me asking a question...

Can you tell if that's an Earl made bell or is it one of his juju magic 72H bells?

Can you tell how wide the throat is on the horn? Is it smaller like a 7XH series horn or is it wider like a 62H or Bach 50B... or EVEN wider like on a Fuchs or a couple of one-off Minick bells?

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:29 am

Oh! And is it a wide or narrow slide?

Actually wouldn't be too hard to make a horn similar to this... Have a A+ tech like Sandhagen or Eric Edwards chop up a 70H with a single bore slide or get a 72H, source a J bend and lighten and trim the handslide...

Of course it wouldn't be the same as Earl's work or be a piece of history like that horn!

Leanit · Post by **Leanit** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:22 pm

blast wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:39 am
Leanit wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:59 pm Nice to see one on the market, and that adapted valve section looks quite nice. Good luck on the sale!
Adapted? That's a stock Holton valve section.

Yes, he adapted a non-Williams F-section to the Williams 10 chassis. It looks like a well-crafted modification, enabling this horn to be usable. If you don't have all the parts, do the best you can.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:55 pm

Hi all, I may be wrong, but I believe this is the original valve section that came with the horn. Earl’s earlier Model 10s had this style of wrap while his later 10s had the famous pigtail wrap. Again, I’m not 100% sure, but it’s what I was told.

As for the bell, yes, it is a raw Conn bell that Earl got and worked his magic on. In the Williams thread on the old forum, I believe all of the Model 10 bells were raw Conn bells that Earl did his magic on.

The flare on this bell is definitely big. I do have a Fuchs, but it’s currently in the hands of Benn in Washington state.

Hopefully John N. or John S. will chime in if they see this post.

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:14 pm

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:55 pm Hi all, I may be wrong, but I believe this is the original valve section that came with the horn. Earl’s earlier Model 10s had this style of wrap while his later 10s had the famous pigtail wrap. Again, I’m not 100% sure, but it’s what I was told.

As for the bell, yes, it is a raw Conn bell that Earl got and worked his magic on. In the Williams thread on the old forum, I believe all of the Model 10 bells were raw Conn bells that Earl did his magic on.

The flare on this bell is definitely big. I do have a Fuchs, but it’s currently in the hands of Benn in Washington state.

Hopefully John N. or John S. will chime in if they see this post.

Cool! Thanks for the info! I really am tempted to buy a 70H and have someone make something similar... haha. A Boy can dream.

I'll ask John what he remembers when I see him on Monday! I'll post an update after talking to him.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:22 pm

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:14 pm
HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:55 pm Hi all, I may be wrong, but I believe this is the original valve section that came with the horn. Earl’s earlier Model 10s had this style of wrap while his later 10s had the famous pigtail wrap. Again, I’m not 100% sure, but it’s what I was told.

As for the bell, yes, it is a raw Conn bell that Earl got and worked his magic on. In the Williams thread on the old forum, I believe all of the Model 10 bells were raw Conn bells that Earl did his magic on.

The flare on this bell is definitely big. I do have a Fuchs, but it’s currently in the hands of Benn in Washington state.

Hopefully John N. or John S. will chime in if they see this post.
Cool! Thanks for the info! I really am tempted to buy a 70H and have someone make something similar... haha. A Boy can dream.

I'll ask John what he remembers when I see him on Monday! I'll post an update after talking to him.

No problem. Definitely post up what you learn from John as I’m curious as well.

While digging through some old emails with John Noxon, I stumbled across this one from Sept. 2009.

“Correct. The model 10’s were Conn to begin with. Earl bought 72H bell blanks and then fashioned them into something resembling a Fuchs bell. Huge wide throat mainly. The early originals were a straight 72H “F” attachment, then he went to the pigtail wrap like the 9 for the last 7 built. I will send you some pictures of both types.”

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:25 pm

Wow.... Groovy! Didn't even know you could stretch out a bell like that!

If any other techs or knowledgable people stumble on this thread... How would you alter the throat of a bell like that?

TheBoneRanger · Post by **TheBoneRanger** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:42 pm

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:22 pm
While digging through some old emails with John Noxon, I stumbled across this one from Sept. 2009.

“Correct. The model 10’s were Conn to begin with. Earl bought 72H bell blanks and then fashioned them into something resembling a Fuchs bell. Huge wide throat mainly.”

Surely that's not possible?

Andrew

paulyg · Post by **paulyg** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:00 pm

That is possible, it's a variation on the same process that produces slide tubes (drawing). He would have essentially re-spun the bells.

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:57 am

As an ex bell maker I would say that is not a viable method !!!.

You would have to remove the bell wire to re spin the flare to a different contour and it would take hours and hours of annealing and re stamping down to try and make it fit the stem in the first place. In fact I'm not sure if the 60 series flare is shorter than a 70 series??

Why would you go to all that trouble any way ????

If Earl Williams had the mandrel to magically stretch a bell on to, why not just make one the right size in the first place????

I have played a Conn 62H with a Minick yellow brass bell on it and it was superb.

BellEnd

paulyg · Post by **paulyg** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:59 am

bellend wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:57 am As an ex bell maker I would say that is not a viable method !!!.

You would have to remove the bell wire to re spin the flare to a different contour and it would take hours and hours of annealing and re stamping down to try and make it fit the stem in the first place. In fact I'm not sure if the 60 series flare is shorter than a 70 series??

Why would you go to all that trouble any way ????

If Earl Williams had the mandrel to magically stretch a bell on to, why not just make one the right size in the first place????

I have played a Conn 62H with a Minick yellow brass bell on it and it was superb.

BellEnd

I'm getting the impression that the throat is what was being stretched, leaving the original rim and rim wire in place. In a sense, this makes a bit of sense- going from sheet metal to a bell requires more than just the mandrel. Brazing, carefully installing the rim wire, ect., where just opening up the throat can be done with some elbow grease and a lot of bells.

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:02 pm

Leanit wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:59 pm Nice to see one on the market, and that adapted valve section looks quite nice. Good luck on the sale!

Adapted Valve Section? This is a Meinlschmidt (sp) valve that Earl Williams used when this horn was made. Nothing "Adapted" nothing Holton!

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:03 pm

blast wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:39 am
Leanit wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:59 pm Nice to see one on the market, and that adapted valve section looks quite nice. Good luck on the sale!
Adapted? That's a stock Holton valve section. As it cannot be secured at the gooseneck, I would wonder if it is the original valve. Does not detract from the basic horn.... in fact you could replace it with a double section without losing sleep. I would love to try it, but thankfully that is not possible.
Must be a nice Duo Gravis

Chris

Not from any Holton horn. Its the original Meinlschmidt (sp) valve.

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:06 pm

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:23 am OP if you don't mind me asking a question...

Can you tell if that's an Earl made bell or is it one of his juju magic 72H bells?

Can you tell how wide the throat is on the horn? Is it smaller like a 7XH series horn or is it wider like a 62H or Bach 50B... or EVEN wider like on a Fuchs or a couple of one-off Minick bells?

That is the original valve from Earl. W+Earl bought Bells from Conn. They were not finished bells the had only been seamed. Nothing els. He had his own drawing stake, and mandrill he finished the bell on. If I was to say what it resembled I would say a Fuchs. Wide dramatic flare on the horns.

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:11 pm

Leanit wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:22 pm
blast wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:39 am Adapted? That's a stock Holton valve section.
Yes, he adapted a non-Williams F-section to the Williams 10 chassis. It looks like a well-crafted modification, enabling this horn to be usable. If you don't have all the parts, do the best you can.

This adapted is not correct. That is a Williams bell, J crook and valve. Nothing was adapted on this horn it is all original as it sits. I had a crook for the handslide, spit valve, Handgrip etc from my pile of parts..

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:15 pm

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:25 pm Wow.... Groovy! Didn't even know you could stretch out a bell like that!

If any other techs or knowledgable people stumble on this thread... How would you alter the throat of a bell like that?

Stretch out I don't get. The blanks had only been seamed not spun or anything else. As I stated Earl had his own Drawing stake and mandrel to spin and finish the bells.

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:17 pm

bellend wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:57 am As an ex bell maker I would say that is not a viable method !!!.

You would have to remove the bell wire to re spin the flare to a different contour and it would take hours and hours of annealing and re stamping down to try and make it fit the stem in the first place. In fact I'm not sure if the 60 series flare is shorter than a 70 series??

Why would you go to all that trouble any way ????

If Earl Williams had the mandrel to magically stretch a bell on to, why not just make one the right size in the first place????

I have played a Conn 62H with a Minick yellow brass bell on it and it was superb.

BellEnd

No you don't have to remove anything. They were only seamed not spun. Earl passed on Just 4th 1975 I wish I had answers to some of the things he did. This would be one of those questions?

Post by **blast** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:22 pm

So is the main bell brace was made by Meinlschmidt too ?

Chris

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:23 pm

John, would the following statement be accurate to the best of your knowledge?

Earl didn't buy bells from Conn, he bought seamed blanks, then spun them to his specs using his own tooling and added the bead, etc. to make a finished bell.

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:23 pm

I hope this clears up some of the bad info in this thread. I bought the horn from Karl's wife. She wanted to get it out of his hands. He wanted a shorter lead pipe so he took a hacksaw and cut off part of the cork barrel. and some other minor mischief ha been done to the horn, I had 99% of the parts to put it back together. So that what John Sandhagen did for me. Slide Crook was replaced and was the spitvalve, hand grip, receiver male and female sides were replace, as were the slide tubes. Yes the slide tubes are Conn. Only thing we could find that would fit the horn.If anyone has questions and is serious about b buying tho from Drew Let me know! I would be happy to help with that.

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:24 pm

blast wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:22 pm So is the main bell brace was made by Meinlschmidt too ?

Chris

No just the Valve. He used Meinlschmidt on most of the "F" attachment horns he made.

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:26 pm

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:23 pm John, would the following statement be accurate to the best of your knowledge?

Earl didn't buy bells from Conn, he bought seamed blanks, then spun them to his specs using his own tooling and added the bead, etc. to make a finished bell.

Yes that is the idea here, This thread got way out in the weeds, not sure how that happened.......

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:27 pm

It is a fantastic horn! I sure hope it finds a good home!

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:33 pm

Jnoxon wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:23 pm...and some other minor mischief ha been done to the horn

I remember seeing that horn before you and Sandhagen tag-teamed it. Old Karl had some, um, interesting ideas. Minor mischief, indeed. IIRC, John essentially built a complete new slide using your Williams parts and Conn tubes. When I saw the close-to-finished product, I didn't realize at first that it was the same horn.

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:39 pm

John Sandhagen did some absolutely fantastic work on that horn. It was in pretty bad shape when I got it. Then bringing it back to Bones West after it was done a few people played it thought it was a different horn!

I feel privileged to have owned two of those horns at the same time, for a couple of years. They were the icing on the cake so to speak of the collection of Williams I have.

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:47 pm

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:42 pm
HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:22 pm
While digging through some old emails with John Noxon, I stumbled across this one from Sept. 2009.

“Correct. The model 10’s were Conn to begin with. Earl bought 72H bell blanks and then fashioned them into something resembling a Fuchs bell. Huge wide throat mainly.”
Surely that's not possible?

Andrew

Why would that not be possible? The bells Earl got were Seamed blanks nothing more. He had his own drawing stake and mandrel to spin the on? So what's not possible?

Tbarh · Post by **Tbarh** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:18 pm

Has anyone compared a Williams 10 bell to a Conn 62H or a Bach 50 bell throat.? . Something tells me i have asked this question before but i keep getting conflicting answer.. And... I get the impression that the Fuchs bells are bigger than the rest, while other say that both the early Bach 50 and Conn 62H are copied from the Fuchs.. I hope i get wiser this time around..

Trond (Who think that the Williams are bigger if only by the huge taper in the J bend/tuning slide)

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:29 pm

It is the dramatic flare and the size of the throat that make them unique. If comparing to anything out there that I have seen, I think it would be close to the old Conn Fuchs.

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:30 am

Hi again, what your saying about un spun blanks would be possible , but given your assertion that he had all the tooling seems a very long winded process, far easier to make it from scratch.
I have never seen a yellow brass 62H/Fuch's ( I think they are one and the same) bell ( Other than the Minick I mentioned earlier which was I think one piece) so may be that was the reason???

Now, I should make it clear I am in no way trying to cast any doubt on the originality of this horn, but Earl Williams was clearly buying parts in for some of the model 10's before he went to the pig tale wrap and like many before and after he used what was obtainable at the time. I am making this clear as........

I would completely concur with Blast in saying There can be no doubt that the valve wrap is from a Holton either 169 or 185 just like the one in the second picture.

The first image is another pre pig tale model 10 but this time with a Conn wrap probably 72H.

The Conn one has been soldered at the top to the underside of the stem, were as the Holton has used a small stay exactly as used on the 169/185.
The radius on the large bend coming out of the rotor on the Williams in this thread is the tighter Holton one as opposed to the Conn wrap in the first picture which results in the vertical width being smaller , hence the little stay.
Also if you compere the stays on the long tuning slide pull there are two on the Holton and One on the Conn and there are small ferrules at the end of the outer legs....... Holton!

As for the rotors? I again I would be very surprised if they were not also Holton and Conn respectively but obviously can not say for sure with out examining them.

Again I stress this is not meant as a criticism!! I think both horns are original but have clearly be built using different manufacturers valve wraps and as I said most likely the respective rotors.
Maybe these were the prototypes

and Earl was trialing different wraps and valves before he went to the effort and expense of tooling up to make his own version, I guess we'll never know.

The biggest shame to me is that the original leadpipe is not present.

I would love to have a blow on this but alas being poor and 6000 mile away that ain't gonna happen any time soon.

BellEnd

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:34 am

Don't know why this didn't appear in above post Model 10 with Conn wrap.

BellEnd

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:39 am

Just as an aside whilst hunting out the pictures for my above post found this image of the templates used to make the Conn bass trombone bell mandrels, I think I lifted it from Steve Dillon's site years ago. Interesting if your an anorak like me........

BellEnd

Leanit · Post by **Leanit** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:31 pm

Jnoxon wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:02 pm
Leanit wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:59 pm Nice to see one on the market, and that adapted valve section looks quite nice. Good luck on the sale!
Adapted Valve Section? This is a Meinlschmidt (sp) valve that Earl Williams used when this horn was made. Nothing "Adapted" nothing Holton!

I stand very, very corrected. I thought all the 10's had the curly F routing. Thanks for the info.

I meant no put-down to the seller!

Tbarh · Post by **Tbarh** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:07 pm

I know that the Holton 169 came around 1960, right? When did Earl introduce the pigtail wrap.?..

Trond

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:18 pm

I do believe everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you want to say its a Holton valve whatever. Earl made a total of 13 model 10 horns. He used the Conn seamed bell blanks for his convenience I would guess! But we will never know. He and Larry Minick used a multitude of Conn parts. Why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to. Earl used the Meinlschmidt valves on 90% of what he made. There are some other horns of his that show who he was working for at the time. Drew also own a Bass Trumpet Earl built that is clearly and F E Olds derivative. I think a lot of the bass bones were all kind of one of's. I got the impression he was not dedicated to bass bones like he was to the Tenors he made.

Noah Gladstone has a Bass Bone from the early 1930's that he made that is clearly Olds. Earl also made a few trumpets (Bb) some had a Conn look some an Olds look to them. I have not found any where that Earl ever used a Holton part on his horns. Conn was willing to supply he and Larry so they both used those parts routinely.

The first 7 model 10's were the Conn style wrap. Then he went to the pigtail wrap for the last 6. I recently sold my 10 which was a XXX1 serial number. I knew the original owner and that horn was built in 1958. The las of the basses was around 1962. So they did not have a very long history at all.

I wish I had asked a lot more questions of Earl. But you never got a warm fuzzy feeling from him. It was all business not very much open to that line of communication. He was a very nice guy but hies trombone knowledge was his and his alone. He had a lot of interests in life. He built and patented some gunsmith tooling, was a bow and arrow guy. He was passionate about those things. there was a huge age difference between us also.

I think it was amazing how far word of his horns traveled in that day and time. I've gotten calls from England, France, Germany, Sweden, Norway, New Zealand, Italy, Czech Republic, Russia about his horns. He had a dealer in Malmo! All word of mouth no internet or anything like we have today. There are still things he did in the manufacturing process we have no idea why it was done. I think he was pretty far ahead of his time. He was the first "Boutique" horn maker as far as I can find. I have him making custom horns in 1923. The next I found was Dominic Calicchio started his trumpet business in 1928.

If you want to learn some more about Williams check out this website. I have picture of advertising and a multitude of things about Earl on it. www.jnoxon.com.

ngrinder · Post by **ngrinder** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:55 pm

Thanks so much for sharing all of this info on Earl, John. Very informative and illuminating to read everything! Great stuff.

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:13 am

Actually, if you'd taken the trouble to read my post properly you would have seen I never said it was a Holton valve, I just said it could be.

However, what I said about the wrap being from a Holton is not an opinion....... it is a simple fact!
Any tech worth his salt who works customizing trombones of this era would know this at a glance, in fact now I've looked again I would be very surprised if the main bell stay is not also a Holton part.

Your very emphatic statement in a earlier post "Adapted Valve Section? This is a Meinlschmidt (sp) valve that Earl Williams used when this horn was made. Nothing "Adapted" nothing Holton!" is just plain wrong .

So...... either you don't really know what you're talking about , or for some reason are trying to deliberately mislead people.

What Ever.....

BellEnd

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:14 pm

bellend wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:34 am Don't know why this didn't appear in above post Model 10 with Conn wrap.

BellEnd

For what it's worth the horn bellend posted in this picture 100% has a Conn valve with Conn wrap and Conn linkage and trigger.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that these first 7 Williams 10s probably did not use meinlschimdt valves.

Hard to tell from OPs post but it looks like it could be a pre Leblanc Holton valve but honestly it's impossible to tell without handling the horn or getting a dozen more pictures.

Unless if Earl bored out the valves or something like that, which Minick did on a number of bases, it doesn't matter too much what the valve is anyways.

Anyways... This thread has turned out to be a wealth of information!!! I'm excited to see if anything more comes out of it!

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:16 pm

Does anyone know what type of pipe Earl might have originally put in the horn? Did he ever produce his own pipes?

In that same post I quoted previously it almost looks like Earl straight up just used a stock 7Xh slide!

I know Minick originally had a tighter pipe in my horn which is in a similar style to Ops horn.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:47 pm

If anyone wants, I don’t mind providing more photos of any specific area they might want to see. Also, I should be getting my Fuchs back within the next two weeks or so. I will provide some side by side comparisons.

Post by **blast** » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:13 pm

Just a piece of information that has been out there in the past.... between the wars, Conn bought in German rotor valves.... why ? because they were top quality and dirt cheap I suppose. Any proof ? yep.... I have 'Conn' rotors that are stamped 'made in Germany' . Being written in English these were obviously for export to English speaking countries. Williams may well have bought some himself, or have bought German rotors from Conn, knowing they were such. He could have quite honestly told people that he used Meinlschmidt rotors.... with the start of WW 2 Conn may well have almost given away enemy valves !! Perhaps he got a great deal.
As to this model 10, I would love to see close-ups of the rotor outside, the faceplate and the core.... it might settle it, or might not. Holton rotors from that period were fantastic quality and whatever the valve, I am sure it is is a special trombone.

Chris

Tbarh · Post by **Tbarh** » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:11 am

In any case, i guess its a Great horn.. How is the slide action?... An idea is to have an extra Tuning slide made with a 2nd valve attachment....

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:59 am

It seems Jnoxon was talking about the valve not being Holton, and BellEnd was talking about the valve wrap clearing being Holton.

So.. the valve was a Meinlschmidt and the wrap was Holton. Yes? Thank for clarifying...

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:51 pm

blast wrote: ↑Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:13 pm Just a piece of information that has been out there in the past.... between the wars, Conn bought in German rotor valves.... why ? because they were top quality and dirt cheap I suppose. Any proof ? yep.... I have 'Conn' rotors that are stamped 'made in Germany' . Being written in English these were obviously for export to English speaking countries. Williams may well have bought some himself, or have bought German rotors from Conn, knowing they were such. He could have quite honestly told people that he used Meinlschmidt rotors.... with the start of WW 2 Conn may well have almost given away enemy valves !! Perhaps he got a great deal.
As to this model 10, I would love to see close-ups of the rotor outside, the faceplate and the core.... it might settle it, or might not. Holton rotors from that period were fantastic quality and whatever the valve, I am sure it is is a special trombone.

Chris

That is very interesting observation Chris. Thanks!

Jnoxon · Post by **Jnoxon** » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:52 pm

greenbean wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:59 am It seems Jnoxon was talking about the valve not being Holton, and BellEnd was talking about the valve wrap clearing being Holton.

So.. the valve was a Meinlschmidt and the wrap was Holton. Yes? Thank for clarifying...

The valve was Meinlschmidt and the wrap is very similar to the Conn not Holton.