Upper range on medium/large bore vs small bore

[jawbone62]

I am hoping you smart and experienced guys out there can help me with a basic physical/technical question. I have recently taken up playing again after 30 or so years and of course am having to rebuld my embouchure. Why is it that on a 0.508 bore 3b everything disappears or breaks up for me above F#/G above middle C, whilst on a dual bore .525/547 Conn 52H and Shires Ralph Sauer i have been lucky enough to play, i am pretty comfortable up to C octave above middle C. On all instruments i am playing with a Warburton 12MT4 - equivalent to a Bach 7C. I played a small bore first time round and also have less puff nowadays so i am a bit bemused.

[norbie2018]

Is the angle you take to each horn identical? My neck interferes with this when I play small bore instruments; I play on a wide slide on my large bore for the same reason.

[Corey]

On some horns that G/F# can play with more resistance than lower notes. Perhaps because you’re newly back to the horn the change in resistance throws you off. I’d expect with practice it’s come to you.

This resistance at G/F# is not as obvious with larger bore horns in my experience. Try buzzing the notes with a tuner before inserting in the horn.

[baileyman]

It would be fun to set up both instruments so you could play a note on one, withdraw the piece while keeping the buzz, and inserting in the other horn keeping the note going, to find differences.

[norbie2018]

On some horns that G/F# can play with more resistance than lower notes. Perhaps because you’re newly back to the horn the change in resistance throws you off. I’d expect with practice it’s come to you.

This resistance at G/F# is not as obvious with larger bore horns in my experience. Try buzzing the notes with a tuner before inserting in the horn.

If you're going to take the buzzing route, be certain that you reinsert the mp at the same angle you buzzed the note at. I found that I wasn't, which caused difficulties for me.

[greenbean]

My experience is that most 3B's have a high end that is challenging. I have had to put lots of time into developing it. I have an easier time up high on just about anything else.

[Rusty]

I’d agree, and say it might just be the horn. Some 3Bs are notoriously stuffy around that range, so it’s not necessarily a small bore vs medium/large bore thing

[Pre59]

Never had a range range problem on any of the three 3b's that I've owned, They were know as "easyphones" at that time for good reason.

[jawbone62]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I should maybe add that i did try a 3b plus (.525) and found it a bit easier up top but not nearly so easy as a Bach 36 (also .525) which played like the Conn 52h and Ralph Sauer in the upper register.

If it is the horn (or a combo of me or the horn) what suggestions would you have for jazz horns with easy playing upper registers?

[Pre59]

If it is the horn (or a combo of me or the horn) what suggestions would you have for jazz horns with easy playing upper registers?

Jazz horns are made to play for long periods of time, largely in the (relatively) higher register, and the 3B is one of the biggest selling horns of all time and goes on selling well.
Try relaxing a bit and letting the instrument do more of the work, you don't have to push it as much as you think after playing a larger bore horn.
I also wonder how loudly you're trying to play?

[Doug Elliott]

It's not possible to make any valid suggestion without seeing you play. Too many variables.

[jawbone62]

In answer to Pre 59 i guess i practice mostly around mf. I’m not sure that loudness seems to make much difference (although the Remington loud attack method does help produce individual high notes)

[Doug Elliott]

Very soft playing promotes control with a small aperture, both essential for high range.

Loud attacks may seem to help get some high notes but they don't help with anything past the attack. Relying on that method can prevent you from developing beyond that, and give you a ceiling you can't break through (top note you can play loud with nothing above it).

[Pre59]

Very soft playing promotes control with a small aperture, both essential for high range.

Yes, it's better to have initially quieter notes that can be worked on and opened out, rather than using volume and heft to get them. Also, high playing on smaller bore instruments can sometimes be in a melodic ballad style, so again it's better to have good volume control.

Doug, it's also good to see the "Aperture" word used in this context as well.

[brtnats]

I think Alan Kaplan is right, and that for every face and set of lungs, there’s an ideal level of compression (the blow to resistance ratio) that lets your play optimally. With fully modular horns, you can experiment with components to find that level. Interchangeable lead pipes are a step below fully modular, and solid-state horns are a step below that. Changing mouthpieces on a solid state horn can help you experiments, but it changes lots of other variables too. I would venture that the OP’s Shire horn is approaching his optional level of compression more adequately than his 3B. Maybe just .525s in general. I had the opposite experience with my old Bach 36 and my .508 Yamaha, so YMMv.

[walldaja]

Agree with Norbie2018, on a small bore I end up off center in the mpc because of my neck hitting the tubing. Love a wide slide. The small bore feels like a "too small" shoe.

[whitbey]

I have a problem with this. My range is better on my 547/562 horn then my 500/508 horn. I have only had my small bore horn for a few years and I think it is a skill issue. As I practice soft high playing the issue has become smaller.

[timothy42b]

I have a problem with this. My range is better on my 547/562 horn then my 500/508 horn. I have only had my small bore horn for a few years and I think it is a skill issue. As I practice soft high playing the issue has become smaller.

Any chance you're playing a larger rim on the 547 than the 500?

See that thread about mouthpiece size and different embouchures.

[whitbey]

I have a problem with this. My range is better on my 547/562 horn then my 500/508 horn. I have only had my small bore horn for a few years and I think it is a skill issue. As I practice soft high playing the issue has become smaller.

Any chance you're playing a larger rim on the 547 than the 500?

See that thread about mouthpiece size and different embouchures.

Nope. Same rim on both. Per Doug Elliot.

[Digidog]

It's all about technique; how you breathe when you play, and how you use your jaw, your lips, what torso position you have, how you hold your instrument - and so on, and so on.

That said, one of the biggest factors - in my opinion - to extend your range, is to relax and have a strong inner hearing when you play and from that build a reliance on that your instrument and your body will assist you in getting the notes you want to hear. Practise just beneath the troublesome register on the instrument you want to play, and step by step - in passages, lines or excerpts - reach into the range where you want to go. It will soon be a strong feeling in your playing if the range trouble is because of your lack of training, or if you simply have an instrument that's not supportive of your air flow, and not a well playing horn. It could be that some damage or dents on the pipes throw off the standing waveforms, but some instruments are simply just not good - even from well known manufacturers.

Good luck!

[BillO]

My experience is that most 3B's have a high end that is challenging. I have had to put lots of time into developing it. I have an easier time up high on just about anything else.

I have to concur with greenbean. I had a 3B that had a marked limited high range. Trading it in on my 4B fixed the range problem for me. I'm not sure if it was my horn, or that 3Bs in general are tough up high. Maybe a bit of both.

If you get a chance try the Jupiter XO 1632RGL-LT. I can't play any higher on it, but my high range is more stable when playing it.

[norbie2018]

Or it could have been your neck was getting in the way, causing an issue at your chops. Sabutin talked about this on the old forum and it was a problem for me until I realized what was going on. That doesn't mean the high register on certain horn cannot be problematic, it's just something to be aware of.