Instrument Innovation Rotary Valve vs Thayer Valve

[Carter1016]

Hi all,

I’ve been looking into some different valve options lately for my bass Trombone. I’ve been realizing little by little lately that I don’t like the Edwards Thayers that I have on my horn. They are a little older from what I was told by the last owner. Maybe 10-15 years, but the previous owner said they had the valves rebuilt by Edwards a few years before I bought it, so potentially 4-5 years ago. I believe the serial number is in the 99,000’s. I don’t feel like anything is wrong with them, I just don’t like them over different valves I’ve tried. My tenor is an older Bach Rotary which I really like. I’m posting to see if anyone has had experiences with the Instrument Innovations Rotary valve. I’ve heard some pretty good things on one of the Facebook trombone groups I believe, but I’m always looking for different opinions of course.

Thanks!

[hurry]

Hagmann
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagmann_valve

Rotax
http://www.willson.ch/en/content/atelier/rotax-valves

Yamaha v
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=66217

...

check them out


hurry

[Kbiggs]

You might also think about the Kanstul Controlled Resistance (CR) valve: http://slidebone.com/product_info.php?products_id=2714

You can also buy them directly from Kanstul.

[Matt K]

Just curious, if I'm understanding you correctly, you like a Bach 42 and you don't like your Edwards Bass. How did you decide that the reason you like your tenor is the reason you don't like your bass? It seems like its rather common for people to assume that the rotor is the crux of what makes their instrument good or bad (historically it's been the other way around, people having rotors that are 'stuffy' and wanting a thayer to 'unstuffy' it). Really though, it's a small part of the instrument, especially the difference between a tenor and a bass!

What is your Edwards setup? I would really consider maybe seeing if some cheaper, more easily performed modifications before having a custom valve section made ($$$!). That said, I'm currently having a valve section built out of the II rotors so I'll report back when tis finished to see what I think !

[Carter1016]

Just curious, if I'm understanding you correctly, you like a Bach 42 and you don't like your Edwards Bass. How did you decide that the reason you like your tenor is the reason you don't like your bass? It seems like its rather common for people to assume that the rotor is the crux of what makes their instrument good or bad (historically it's been the other way around, people having rotors that are 'stuffy' and wanting a thayer to 'unstuffy' it). Really though, it's a small part of the instrument, especially the difference between a tenor and a bass!

What is your Edwards setup? I would really consider maybe seeing if some cheaper, more easily performed modifications before having a custom valve section made ($$$!). That said, I'm currently having a valve section built out of the II rotors so I'll report back when tis finished to see what I think !

That’s mostly right. I love my Edwards Bass, I just don’t like the valves. It’s the first horn I’ve ever owned that isn’t rotary valves. I like the rotary on my Bach 42 because I like the small amount of extra resistance that the Rotary valve gave me. But on the flip side, I like the response in the extreme low register of my Edwards Thayers, but I don’t like how free blowing it is, which really is quite opposite of most people. My Edwards setup is the B454 in-line Thayers.

I’m interested in the easy modifications that you mentioned though! Could you elaborate more on that?

[Matt K]

That’s mostly right. I love my Edwards Bass, I just don’t like the valves. It’s the first horn I’ve ever owned that isn’t rotary valves. I like the rotary on my Bach 42 because I like the small amount of extra resistance that the Rotary valve gave me. But on the flip side, I like the response in the extreme low register of my Edwards Thayers, but I don’t like how free blowing it is, which really is quite opposite of most people. My Edwards setup is the B454 in-line Thayers.

I’m interested in the easy modifications that you mentioned though! Could you elaborate more on that?

Possibly! But its hard to say without knowing which model model Edwards you are playing beyond just the valves (bell configuration, tuning slide, handslide setup, and leadpipe). And also what 42 you're playing for that matter too. While there are some options for the 42, there aren't nearly as many options as the Edwards lineup which currently sports 24 common bell configurations in a variety of weights, several tuning slide options, a dozen handslide configurations, and 3 common leadpipes. It sounds like your 42 it might be a 42B, full stop. That bell is a fairly lightweight, one-piece, soldered bell bead. The hand slide has a dual-radius bass crook, oversleeves, and usually has a leadpipe close to other manufacturers 1.5 if it matches the specs and if nobody has modified it.

So you mention you like the 'resistance' that the rotor gives you. Fair enough, but how about the taper of the leadpipe? Or the dual-radius crook? Or the soldered bell bead? If you could put the characteristic of sound as a spectrum between broadness and ease of articulation, all three of these - and the rotor - tend to favor response over broadness of sound. And in my experience, the three of those things tend to be more important than the valve response.

Because lets say you'd prefer a setup like your Bach, yet your Edwards is a heavyweight, red brass, unsoldered bell bead; has a single radius tuning; inline thayers; and is a B62AN (all nickel) with a #3 leadpipe. That's quite a bit different than your 42 aside the obvious difference that one is a bass and the other a tenor. Obviously there isn't anything stopping you from making a custom rotary section for it, but it still won't be close to what is probably an optimal setup for you because its a small component of what is possibly a very different setup than your Bach.

Fortunately, your Edwards and Bach slides are interchangeable. Pop the Edwards slide on your Bach and see if you like the change. Try it with your tenor mouthpiece. Well, for that matter, try it with both and see what you think. That's mixing it up for sure!

[dukesboneman]

I just had the Instrument Innovations Rotor put on my 42BO and LOVE it!
The "F" side of the horn feels exactly like the open side. Mike is so easy to work with.
He wants you to be happy with his products. It`s easily the best valve I`ve ever played

[MTbassbone]

Could you try an Edwards CR-E valve section for your bass? Maybe see if anyone has a CR-E valve section, and would like to trade for Thayers.

[whitbey]

I had a Thayer. Now I have a CR E Edwards valve. The CR E is incredible! Best I ever played.

[down8ve]

Really enjoy the rotors on my horn, pretty sure they are the Meinlschmidt "Open-Flow" valves (horn is German). Unobtrusive, flawlessly crafted. Bach Centennials used them, smart move.