Stuck thayer valve(s)

[pete]

Hi,

I have a really nice Jupiter X0, double, independent trigger bass trombone with Thayer valves. I love the trombone but the valves are a PIA. The second trigger, in particular, is always sticking. I tried cleaning them myself for the first 6 months, but that only lasted for a month each time, and it would stick again (even when playing regularly). Then I took it to a qualified tech who did the ultrasound and other stuff, but the first time I was gone for more than a week - when I returned, it was stuck. I've tried to unstick it with force from my thumb, but I don't want to start tapping it with anything stronger. I've had two professional cleans so far, but the last one only worked for a month before it stuck. The cleans cost between $135 and $200, so I can't keep doing this.

The company now responsible for the X0 line weren't that helpful (their advice was to take it to a technician), so I'm wondering what I should do now? Some possibilities:

1. Sell it / trade it for another bass trombone (but I don't want to pass on the issue to someone else really).
2. Force the manufacturer to repair it properly (hopefully switching out the defective valves)
3. Have it rebuilt with standard rotary valves (but almost everything behind my head would probably need to be replaced).
4. Pull the first tube out enough and treat it as a single trigger instrument (this is what I'm doing at the moment, but I really don't like it).

Any thoughts about what to do? I love the sound of the instrument, so I would like to keep/fix it. Plus, I got it as a demo unit for a relatively great price ($2500), but that's still a huge investment.

Thanks, Pete

[BGuttman]

Axial valves are quite "fussy" and need frequent lubrication. On the Edwards site there is a video of how to clean and lube them.

They also need to be "calibratee", a service that requires a Tech who will adjust the bearings.

Watch the Edwards video and make sure you are doing what they say. If it still doesn't fix the problem you need to bring it to a Tech. At your expense.

I think your options are not realistic:

1. If you like the horn you may not like what you replace it with.
2. You can't force them to do anything; they own the Warranty and you may already have broken it.
3. Rebuilding it with any other valves will far exceed the cost of bringing it to a tech for an alignment.
4. This is a workaround and not a satisfactory option.

Good luck.

[pedrombon]

Replace them with Olsen axials

[Kbiggs]

If you’ve cleaned them several times, then cleaning them again probably won’t solve the problem. You may have something else going on like a spindle that is bent, a dent in the casing, a burr left over from machining... who knows? Take it to a different tech who has experience working on a lot of different Thayer valves and knows about the different manufacturers of Thayer valves.

There are a few good repair techs here on TC like Eric Edwards (bonearzt). If you’re on the West Coast, there’s John Sandhagen, Benn Hansson, and many others.

[pete]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the suggestions. As noted, I've had a respected tech clean/rebuild them twice, but it's a frequent problem. I also followed the Shire videos to the letter as well as another YT version that had a few differences.

Pete

[pete]

Thanks for the suggestions - I've contacted the makres of the Olsen axials and, I'm not far from LA so that might be the next step...or combine the two and have one of these repair techs put in the Olsens, which have some great reviews. It'll depend on the cost...

[Burgerbob]

Not all techs can really get down to the nitty gritty on Thayers. You'd need an expert.

[Bassmike]

There could be stress in the build or the bell section could have been put back together with a slight misalignment that would cause the valves to bind. If you are comfortable with taking the bell apart do so and then reassemble putting the tuning slide in before tightening the bell braces. In other words make sure that everything is lined up before you clamp down on the bell braces.

[elmsandr]

This is almost impossible to diagnose over the internet.

I will say the following things:
-Thayers eat oil. May need to be oiled and moved daily to keep them happy.
-Thayers can be too tight, the fit may have to be opened up. I would not let but a few folks do this. Not hard, but easy to screw up.
-Thayers can be really susceptible to tiny tensions in the build of the horn. Something may be slightly out of alignment, maybe even just in how the horn is held in the case.

This is not uncommon for Thayers. They are finicky. This is one of the reasons that I think they are becoming less popular, they just require more effort than a rotor to maintain. My Bach rotor from 1942 requires less thought and effort than my 2006 Thayers.

Cheers,
Andy

[doctortrombone]

Something else to consider--Not all axial valves are Thayers. I'm not sure what Jupiter was using, but it's possible that they're a Chinese-made knock-off. Sometimes the metals used in these knock-offs aren't right. I've had Chinese-made rotary valves that would seize every time they were out of use for more than three days. Are these actual Thayers? Most descriptions of the Jupiter XO describe it as having "Thru-Flow" valves, which I'm pretty sure are an unlicensed imitation of the Thayer.

[hornbuilder]

The Patent on the Thayer valve expired years ago, so none of the axial valves being made today are/should/need to be licensed. Regardless of where they are made. FYI

[Jgittleson]

The Patent on the Thayer valve expired years ago, so none of the axial valves being made today are/should/need to be licensed. Regardless of where they are made. FYI

This

[doctortrombone]

The Patent on the Thayer valve expired years ago, so none of the axial valves being made today are/should/need to be licensed. Regardless of where they are made. FYI

I hadn't realized that. Still, I do think the problem may not be an issue with the particular valve on that horn, but with a run of valves used by Jupiter. On the horn that I had with a similar problem, there was no visible corrosion on the spindles, but it had to be disassembled, cleaned, and relubricated each time I used it.

[CapnHal]

I've had the same problem with a Thayer I had retrofitted on a Bach 42. I've had mine cleaned twice in 2 years, which maybe isn't that bad, but I'm afraid to use it on a gig for fear it will seize up. I've been advised that Thayers like water, you can take the tuning side off and run water through it with a garden hose, then dry it and oil. As noted earlier they like a lot of oil, so I oil it every time I play it, and haven't had any trouble for the past few months.
Hal

[marccromme]

You could try another route: instead of oil, clean them, dry them and try Yamaha slide snot (silicone based water emulsion we use for trombone slides). I use it on yt tuba piston valves, because it lasts much longer than oil, and degrades slowly, such that I know when I have to re-apply before they stick. Works also like a charm on my Hagman tenor valve. And does not mess with the lubrication of my slide, if/when it runs down there.

Maybe you want to try that on a Thayer and report back?

[BillyBonz]

Work with a Jupiter Dealer for warranty maintenance or replacement.

[Mv2541]

Hi,

I have a really nice Jupiter X0, double, independent trigger bass trombone with Thayer valves. I love the trombone but the valves are a PIA. The second trigger, in particular, is always sticking. I tried cleaning them myself for the first 6 months, but that only lasted for a month each time, and it would stick again (even when playing regularly). Then I took it to a qualified tech who did the ultrasound and other stuff, but the first time I was gone for more than a week - when I returned, it was stuck. I've tried to unstick it with force from my thumb, but I don't want to start tapping it with anything stronger. I've had two professional cleans so far, but the last one only worked for a month before it stuck. The cleans cost between $135 and $200, so I can't keep doing this.

The company now responsible for the X0 line weren't that helpful (their advice was to take it to a technician), so I'm wondering what I should do now? Some possibilities:

1. Sell it / trade it for another bass trombone (but I don't want to pass on the issue to someone else really).
2. Force the manufacturer to repair it properly (hopefully switching out the defective valves)
3. Have it rebuilt with standard rotary valves (but almost everything behind my head would probably need to be replaced).
4. Pull the first tube out enough and treat it as a single trigger instrument (this is what I'm doing at the moment, but I really don't like it).

Any thoughts about what to do? I love the sound of the instrument, so I would like to keep/fix it. Plus, I got it as a demo unit for a relatively great price ($2500), but that's still a huge investment.

Thanks, Pete

I actually owned one for a short while, and while the sound is definitely better than it should be at the price point, the build quality is not.

Try and find an oil that works (Hetmann 1?) and apply it daily. If you play that horn every day then just do it at the start or end of your practice every day.
Also when I bought the horn the valves were quite awful. I took apart the valves and cleaned them pretty thoroughly myself using a lot of oil and really wiping down the surface of the cores and the inside of the valves with an appropriate cloth. I found the places of contact were quite dirty, so after the initial clean a daily oiling helps keep the valve clean and prevents buildup.

Also I agree with the people saying take it to a tech that really knows axial valves; there are some on this forum you could try contacting.

[tbonesullivan]

I think Jupiter uses O.E. Thayer valves, or at least did at one point. They may use something made in house now. It's not like they are that complicated to make with a CNC set up, as long as you know what you are doing.

Sticking like that usually makes me think that stress somewhere in the bell section is causing one of the bearing plates to shift. Have you tried loosening or tightening the rings that hold the valves together?

Also as stated, THAYERS EAT OIL. They just do. There's no way around that. The design doesn't hold the oil in very well, so you've got to repeat it often.

[Matt K]

I can't speak to the past, but the XO lineup uses the same thayers for both their tenors and their bases and have a bore of .571" so much undersized compared to OE Thayer (or oversized for tenors).

[BHolleyBrass]

I just worked on a newer "factory second" XO with a sticky (not quite as bad with the cap loosened, apparently...) Thayer-style valve and there seemed to be some lacquer over-spray inside the casing. I noticed it after its chemical cleaning when I was stabilizing things; it came off with some Dremel wire wheel time and worked better than when it was "new."

[wayne88ny]

Regarding Axial Flow valves "drinking" valve oil, this is largely the result of using oil that is too thin. For many years I used Superslick valve oil on my valve and didn't have to oil it very often. Unfortunately, Superslick changed the oil (it's now labeled "Light Viscosity"). I'm currently trying to find a better oil for my valve. I cannot use any of the synthetic oils as they cause a yellow goo to form (a common problem with older instruments). I need to clean the valve first, then I'm going to try the Denis Wick valve oil. If that doesn't work, I'll try the Monster Bio Rotor Oil or the 5 Starr Red Zone oil.

[Burgerbob]

Regarding Axial Flow valves "drinking" valve oil, this is largely the result of using oil that is too thin. For many years I used Superslick valve oil on my valve and didn't have to oil it very often. Unfortunately, Superslick changed the oil (it's now labeled "Light Viscosity"). I'm currently trying to find a better oil for my valve. I cannot use any of the synthetic oils as they cause a yellow goo to form (a common problem with older instruments). I need to clean the valve first, then I'm going to try the Denis Wick valve oil. If that doesn't work, I'll try the Monster Bio Rotor Oil or the 5 Starr Red Zone oil.

Ultra-Pure does not leave yellow goo.

[wayne88ny]

It's my understanding synthetic oils have built in cleaning characteristics. I've gotten the yellow goo from both Hetman oils and Monster synthetic rotor oil. Perhaps Ultra Pure does not have this cleaning ability. Have you used it on older trombones?

[BGuttman]

It's my understanding synthetic oils have built in cleaning characteristics. I've gotten the yellow goo from both Hetman oils and Monster synthetic rotor oil. Perhaps Ultra Pure does not have this cleaning ability. Have you used it on older trombones?

I have, but not on an Axial valve. It does not produce yellow goo on rotors.

[Burgerbob]

It's my understanding synthetic oils have built in cleaning characteristics. I've gotten the yellow goo from both Hetman oils and Monster synthetic rotor oil. Perhaps Ultra Pure does not have this cleaning ability. Have you used it on older trombones?

I use Ultra-Pure on everything with no issues.

[bbocaner]

I think the "cleaning" myth came from Hetman and I think it's not exactly true. My bottles of hetman have had yellow goo develop on the bottles themselves where the oil has never been in contact with brass.

But I have come to the realization that different oils are compatible with different people's body chemistry. What works well for you may not work for me. Ultra pure doesn't work for me at all and a lot of people like it. I've had really good luck with Resilience oil.

But I totally agree that the original poster should do a good cleaning and then try a few different brands of oil and see if that helps.

If this instrument has an aluminum core valve and the coating on the core has worn, it's never going to not have problems though.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I think many people assume that axials are perfectly fit from the factory or that the after-market kits are also perfectly fit. I have seen many axials in which the plate was too tight against the spinning valve, even when the threaded ring was not fully tightened. If it is too tight, it doesn’t matter how much lube you put in there……it just won’t operate properly.

The rule I use is…..the valve must be able rotate perfectly without any lubricant. Sometimes just the slightest bit of lapping is needed on the plate/flat side of valve point of friction. I always do the lapping in very small doses… just to the point where the valve works well when it is clean and dry. I do it in very small doses because I don’t want to prematurely start the “wear” on the valve that can eventually make them leak.

This is not the only problem that can occur with axials, but I have seen it several times. If an axial valve only works for one or two days after applying oil, there is definitely something going on that needs to be addressed. If a tech is just cleaning it, reapplying lubricants and it still does not work, you need to get it to someone who can get to the root of the problem.

[tbonesullivan]

I think many people assume that axials are perfectly fit from the factory or that the after-market kits are also perfectly fit. I have seen many axials in which the plate was too tight against the spinning valve, even when the threaded ring was not fully tightened. If it is too tight, it doesn’t matter how much lube you put in there……it just won’t operate properly.

Bach also assumed this, which is why many of their early 42T trombones had a lot of end play in the valves. Part of the fitting process was adjusting / removing metal from the top of the casing.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

In recent years, I have seen a few examples of the opposite. Maybe due to complaints about loose fitting valves or short-lived valves, but manufacturers seem to be making that plate fit rather snug against the valve. Those have needed a little bit of lapping.

A big issue with axials is the construction all around them. If something around the valve is forced or stressed during the construction, it will have profound impact on the performance of the valve.

[pete]

wow, I didn't realise that more had been posted. I've taken the bell section apart and I'm shipping it to OE Thayer for a rebuild. Hopefully that will fix my issue. If not, they will have new bass trombone valves coming out next year that they may be able to install.

But, in the meantime, I have to play my 88H as a bass trombone. Any recommendations on whether I should use a 1-1/4G mouthpiece or 4G for this? I'm guessing there's still a mismatch so I should use the 4G...would a compromise for the next month be better (2G or 3G) to play on both bass and tenor parts?

[hornbuilder]

OE Thayer doesn't exist anymore. ??? Who are you sending it to?

Edit. Just saw that yes, they're still in business. I'm still really curious as to who is doing this, since Jim Nydigger, the guy who screwed over Ed Thayer, died some years ago. And both Ed and Barb Thayer have passed, but their design/product is being made, with permission from Barb Thayer, by Bill Milashius in MN. If I was to have to choose a company, it would be the one approved by Barb Thayer.

[Posaunus]

But, in the meantime, I have to play my 88H as a bass trombone. Any recommendations on whether I should use a 1-1/4G mouthpiece or 4G for this? I'm guessing there's still a mismatch so I should use the 4G...would a compromise for the next month be better (2G or 3G) to play on both bass and tenor parts?

A. There are several mouthpiece makers than Bach - many are better. Think outside the Bachs!
(Unless of course you already possess them!)
B. The 1¼G size is indeed too large for a Conn 88H - even playing bass trombone parts.
And the 4G size is probably too small. I'd check out mouthpieces in the 3G or perhaps even 2G size range.
Lots of options available from several manufacturers - or find an reasonable Doug Elliott setup.
You'll need a throat at least 7.0 mm diameter, and a suitable backbore.
(A Schilke 58 might work O.K. )

[hyperbolica]

In the end, I'd sell it and get something else. Probably buy something used that has been broken in. Go test play used horns at Dillons or somewhere where you can put your hands on things. Maybe trade it in.

I have a Kanstul with oversized rotors, and the first 6 months were miserable until I had them lap the valves. Seems extreme for a new horn, but they were just too tight.

I know a lot of people love them, but I think Thayers are just a bad design. Between the maintenance and structure affecting one another, you can't fix that. Switching valves is crazy expensive. Which is why I encourage you to test horns and trade it in at a big shop that handles a lot of used basses.

[pete]

Thanks - I had thought of that too, but didn't want to make it someone else's problem. I'll go with the repair for now, and if that works and I can trade it in for a used Conn or Bach bass trombone with rotary valves, I'll do that.

[pete]

Good idea - the 2G and 3G seem to be working well. Since I have to play tenor too, I might just stick with the 3G if the low C is 'speaking' so that I'm not switching so much on the same instrument.

But, in the meantime, I have to play my 88H as a bass trombone. Any recommendations on whether I should use a 1-1/4G mouthpiece or 4G for this? I'm guessing there's still a mismatch so I should use the 4G...would a compromise for the next month be better (2G or 3G) to play on both bass and tenor parts?

A. There are several mouthpiece makers than Bach - many are better. Think outside the Bachs!
(Unless of course you already possess them!)
B. The 1¼G size is indeed too large for a Conn 88H - even playing bass trombone parts.
And the 4G size is probably too small. I'd check out mouthpieces in the 3G or perhaps even 2G size range.
Lots of options available from several manufacturers - or find an reasonable Doug Elliott setup.
You'll need a throat at least 7.0 mm diameter, and a suitable backbore.
(A Schilke 58 might work O.K. )