Db bass trombone!

Post by **Matt K** » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:49 pm

Make it ascending (Bb/Db) and there'd be no transition! People would also have a little bit of a reference as its only a half step higher than what most players use the F attachment for.. or in other words, T2 is C and T3 is B natural - just one position off.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:06 am

Matt my issue with that is the same reason i am hesitant to make an independent model. I think its important for people trying it out to be able to play the damn thing, but its important they understand its not some imitation of a Bb bass's sound. This is a unique instrument of its own, and the necessary evil is having to learn something new. I worry if i put Bb anywhere in there, its just a way for someone to cheat doing the work to understand the horn properly. Independent it would be Db/Ab/Bb/Gb. I know thats attractive, but for all the wrong reasons.

I guess this is something someone can't appreciate unless they play one themselves. It's its own animal, and an interesting one at that. It has a better high range than any bass, yet a beautiful vocal like tone, and still has a booming low register. To put it simply, once someone puts in the time to learn the horn it does more than a Bb bass can do. Or any tenor for that matter.

I'm sure thats a bold claim for a lot of people to accept, especially coming from the guy making them. And i know there's plently of people that will think who am i to stumble across this when a major horn manufacturer hasnt? To that i say i am not pretending to be some horn building savant, i just ran across some dumb luck, and took a few guesses that paid off.

So yea, thats the long version if my thoughts. Oh and btw, you bass is looking awesome, ill get you some pics today!

Post by **Matt K** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:42 am

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:06 am So yea, thats the long version if my thoughts. Oh and btw, you bass is looking awesome, ill get you some pics today!

You could transpose some common stuff into Db too. So they wouldn't be reading concert pitch but they'd be using the same nominal slide positions. That would work for some people though peole with perfect pitch might be not used to it if they don't play a transposing instrument at all.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:58 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:42 am
Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:06 am So yea, thats the long version if my thoughts. Oh and btw, you bass is looking awesome, ill get you some pics today!

You could transpose some common stuff into Db too. So they wouldn't be reading concert pitch but they'd be using the same nominal slide positions. That would work for some people though peole with perfect pitch might be not used to it if they don't play a transposing instrument at all.

The issue happens when they want to go back and forth from a Bb bass to the Db bass. Otherwise yes thatd work

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:19 am

If you want to sell more than a handful of these instruments, you should consider Pete Edwards idea. His ideas were posted in the old TTF, and his horn is practical right out of the gate without relearning anything, or without stretching any instrument classifications.

You're fighting the connection to anything conventional, but your concept and Pete's concept are physically nearly identical. Yours will be hard to learn and his won't. I'd buy one of Pete's if it were offered for sale.

New ideas are cool, but when it comes to putting down money, it needs to also be practical.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:52 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:19 am If you want to sell more than a handful of these instruments, you should consider Pete Edwards idea. His ideas were posted in the old TTF, and his horn is practical right out of the gate without relearning anything, or without stretching any instrument classifications.

You're fighting the connection to anything conventional, but your concept and Pete's concept are physically nearly identical. Yours will be hard to learn and his won't. I'd buy one of Pete's if it were offered for sale.

New ideas are cool, but when it comes to putting down money, it needs to also be practical.

Sorry, but i don't think you know the actual ins and out of this horn. This is a very different beast than what you are referring to. The bell alone fits no conventional dimensions, and the point is this is something new and totally different. Not to poo poo on anyone's work, but Pete's horn just relocates some tubing. Creative, sure. Innovative, no. The math to this horn is totally different than a conventional bass, and it plays superior to that convention.

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:23 am

It's gonna have to be REALLY better than a conventional bass to get people to even try it.

Either that or have a couple of nice albums to show it off; preferably by a big name player.

Remember, you have to overcome some serious inertia that says "stay with the status quo".

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:33 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:23 am It's gonna have to be REALLY better than a conventional bass to get people to even try it.

Either that or have a couple of nice albums to show it off; preferably by a big name player.

Remember, you have to overcome some serious inertia that says "stay with the status quo".

Ive found younger players are more interested, where older players tend to shy away. Gives me a good place to start.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:54 pm

I very much want to try it, regardless of how it relates to a normal bass.

doctortrombone · Post by **doctortrombone** » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:00 am

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:52 am

Sorry, but i don't think you know the actual ins and out of this horn. This is a very different beast than what you are referring to. The bell alone fits no conventional dimensions, and the point is this is something new and totally different. Not to poo poo on anyone's work, but Pete's horn just relocates some tubing. Creative, sure. Innovative, no.

How was it creative or innovative to find an odd bell, and lop off tubing from a standard Bb trombone until you had something that fit it? I've done the same thing with trumpet bells and smallbore slides. I built a slide trombone in some random key--may have even been Db, I don't recall--but I just looked at it as what worked given the point at which the bell tail hit .485 and matched the slide I had, not a paradigm shift. It was fun to make, and I sold it on Ebay for $150.

There's a difference between you "blowing your own horn" like a used car salesman trying to drum up business, and you making snide comments about Pete Edwards. Any statement that starts with "Not to poo poo on anyone's work..." is most likely going to poo poo on someone's work. You're an excellent machinist, but I have yet to see anything in the description of this tromone that's any more innovative than "it's shorter, and it's in a weird key." Basically, this thread reminds me of Nigel Tuffnel, repeatedly explaining that "these go to eleven."

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:52 am The math to this horn is totally different than a conventional bass, and it plays superior to that convention.

Was there math involved? My recollection is that you used trial and error to arrive at something significantly different from what you planned to make, and that the only reason it's in Db is that your "secret sauce" bell happened to have a length and conical profile that matched that key.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:32 pm

doctortrombone wrote: ↑Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:00 am
Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:52 am

Sorry, but i don't think you know the actual ins and out of this horn. This is a very different beast than what you are referring to. The bell alone fits no conventional dimensions, and the point is this is something new and totally different. Not to poo poo on anyone's work, but Pete's horn just relocates some tubing. Creative, sure. Innovative, no.
How was it creative or innovative to find an odd bell, and lop off tubing from a standard Bb trombone until you had something that fit it? I've done the same thing with trumpet bells and smallbore slides. I built a slide trombone in some random key--may have even been Db, I don't recall--but I just looked at it as what worked given the point at which the bell tail hit .485 and matched the slide I had, not a paradigm shift. It was fun to make, and I sold it on Ebay for $150.

There's a difference between you "blowing your own horn" like a used car salesman trying to drum up business, and you making snide comments about Pete Edwards. Any statement that starts with "Not to poo poo on anyone's work..." is most likely going to poo poo on someone's work. You're an excellent machinist, but I have yet to see anything in the description of this tromone that's any more innovative than "it's shorter, and it's in a weird key." Basically, this thread reminds me of Nigel Tuffnel, repeatedly explaining that "these go to eleven."

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:52 am The math to this horn is totally different than a conventional bass, and it plays superior to that convention.
Was there math involved? My recollection is that you used trial and error to arrive at something significantly different from what you planned to make, and that the only reason it's in Db is that your "secret sauce" bell happened to have a length and conical profile that matched that key.

Alright sure, why not.

Look, you don't get it. Thats fine. Not everyone is going to be on board. I never pretended to have gotten to the finish line by anything more than dumb luck, but the end result of something that works speaks for itself. Whether i used math or not doesnt matter, theres still math that goes with the end result that allows me to patent all this.

Look forward to your order once they're available

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:31 am

Mini update.

Turns out based on a poll i ran, players seem to prefer higher copper content bells almost 2:1. As a result, im very exceited for a few promising red brass bells to be delivered Friday. I already sourced a red brass crook, so if one of these fits the magic combo i need, it should be a pretty neat find to try out. I'm also excited to try out a 9" bell rather than 9.5". This tweaking will hopefully improve the sound of these horns further.

Also, a friend of mine saw a photo of a bulter horn and now wants to make a mold for carbon bells. I was laughing at him at first, but he is a cnc programmer and make some pretty incredible stuff so im eager to see how he makes out. If he nails it, it'd be pretty cook to offer them. He also started working on some of the valves i will be offering, as well as a lot of other components. So much of this stuff hasnt changed in 100 to 200 years, its really not hard to improve it. We actually had a major revelation as how to assemble horns, which led to some products we are prototyping. If it works out, itll make my life more complicated with more patents to file haha.

It's kinda fun to take the traditional rules around something, throw them away, and make all new ones. From an engineers perspective so much of a horn is designed horribly, with plenty of room for improvement. Sure, this makes parts cost a little more, but for the price of a custom horn today, I for one would expect things like the improvements we are working on. Two valves cnc'd into a single housing, that can be screwed into place rather than soldered, more integrated components, cutting the amount of solder joints in half, more elegrant construction, no more plain bell braces or cheap ferrules.

So, theres a little insight into whats going on at the moment. We may also be taking a look into some alternative materials i havent seen used on a horn. For example, if we do integrate some carbon fiber, it'd be nice to try and pair up titanium with it, assuming it still sounds good. Then we could make a truly indestructible horn! Hahaha.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:40 am

Great news! I have been successful in sourcing bells that will work in alternate sizes/materials. I will be mounting up a 9" red brass one next. Oh, AND i can match the tuning slide in red brass as well! To say I am excited is an understatement. I am hoping the smallest size bell that qualifies as a bass bone gives me a more centered sound, and apparently im not the only one who prefers the tonal qualities produced by a bell of higher copper content.

I should have this playing late Sunday night, with video to follow. As much as id like to just jump right on this, a sick 2 year old, about 5 customer projects (three on them for one person!), and a smattering of other priorities have me stretched in 50 directions. I also have a few prototype parts to test out, including a new ferrule design i am beyond eager to try. Ignore the simple outside shape, its strictly for testing purposes.

Prototype 1.0 for my own valve is also ready to be mounted and trialed. A good friend of mine has jumped on board on my crazy adventure, and together we came up with a plethora of advancements to improve the current rotor valves on the market. By changing the way the valve is made, we can incorporate some remarkable innovations no manufacturer has released. This also dramatically raises the cost of production, but one step at a time!

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:28 am

Plays fantastic! I much prefer this to the other bells. All the characteristics you'd expect from a red brass bell, and nice focused projection from the 9" size.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:45 am

I know its missing a few notes with only the Bb valve, but man this is fun to play!

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:24 am

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:49 pm

Well i dove into the independent horn today. It took a while to jump in, since i had to decide what i wanted to make in tune. After playing the Bb valve horn, which i love, i knew the path to take. It will be Db/Ab/Bb/Gb, and Gb in first with both valves will be flat.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:56 pm

Well i thimk i lost everyone but the independent model is looking pretty awesome

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:12 pm

Is this thing supposed to be TIS or no tuning whatsoever?

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:27 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:12 pm Is this thing supposed to be TIS or no tuning whatsoever?

TIS. Making slide now too, but there's nothing interesting about it so I haven't shown much.

Specialk3700 · Post by **Specialk3700** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:49 am

What size mouthpiece where you using in the video? To me it sounds too much like a tenor for my likings but hey I also play a big old 10 inch bell Holton.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:26 am

Specialk3700 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:49 am What size mouthpiece where you using in the video? To me it sounds too much like a tenor for my likings but hey I also play a big old 10 inch bell Holton.

The second horn is a 10 inch holton. I should borrow a Bb bass from my friend that has a 9" bell and single bore slide to show how much closer it is. Its really, really, close.

Mouthpiece is a greg black 1g medium.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:27 am

The elves were busy last night.... pretty happy with the wrap design.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:20 pm

Had a couple more people try the horn, with very positive reviews. The main obersvations seemed to be consistent with the rest, with the best response being it should be called the lyrical bass trombone. Im waiting for parts to finish the independent one, then ill be getting it out and about with that as well.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:04 am

Here is one persons review

I spent some time with the horn. It's really an interesting design. My first description of it was that it's a "lyrical bass trombone" You have a sound and response that's much more in line with a bass. It's really resonant in the range from about about Db below the staff and up as high as you can (it extended my range on my usual mouthpiece).

My first idea was that it's perfect for Rochut etudes in tenor clef 8vb. Not super low, but nice and rich solo playing. It would be cool for perhaps the 3rd part in Mahler 2 (or other 3rd parts in a 4 part section), maybe even in a jazz ens where the 4th part is playing mostly below the staff as a bridge to the smaller horns.

It definitely has a place in the trombone family.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:31 am

Waiting on one or two components to finish the independent bell section, which I am really excited for. I've been using the Db/Bb one in group now, and it does the job quite well. The only thing I haven't played in with it is a big band, but once the independent one is finished I'll arrange for that as well. I'm currently looking to have these for trial and purchase at next years sts and itf, if not sooner. Not sure how many orders I will get , but I am sure everyone's going to want to try it!

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:19 pm

I'll just leave this here

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:14 pm

So most of the finish is done, just the fine details to comb through. I threw the valves and hardware on, needed to solder the finger valve perch. While i had it together i blew a few notes, and its so sweet. I have to spend some time with it, but first back apart to get everything perfect tonight. I know what ill be practicing on this weekend

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:25 pm

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:19 pm I'll just leave this here

Beautiful!

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:31 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:25 pm
Jgittleson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:19 pm I'll just leave this here
Beautiful!

Thanks! And she's done!

Crazytrombonist505 · Post by **Crazytrombonist505** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:55 pm

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:31 pm
Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:25 pm Beautiful!
Thanks! And she's done!

That looks awesome!! Great job!!

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:52 am

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:15 am

Been a productive couple of days. Still getting used to the independent setup, as I'm still getting familiar with all the alternate positions. Took my half a rehearsal to realize i can play Eb in the staff in first with my thumb valve

. Perhaps the most interesting thing Ive observed while playing is this horns ability to "punch through" in an ensemble. With my Bb bass, this task felt like trying to pish a wave from the back of the room through to the audience, where with the Db horn it just cuts through so cleanly, having its voice heard is really quite easy. This makes me very eager to try it out in a big band setting, especially on the right charts that are bass bone heavy.

The bigger news is some commercial players will be trying the horn soon, as part of a new relationship with a company interested in manufacturing some of these. Im very interested to get their feedback.

BrassedOn · Post by **BrassedOn** » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:03 am

Great to see the horn in action. I'm sure a lot of us are eager to hear it in a section.

Pretty wrap with the dog legs. Does it still fulfill your portability size needs?

How's the TIS coming along?

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:22 am

BrassedOn wrote: ↑Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:03 am Great to see the horn in action. I'm sure a lot of us are eager to hear it in a section.

Pretty wrap with the dog legs. Does it still fulfill your portability size needs?

How's the TIS coming along?

Thanks! I'll see what i can do for that, should be possible.

As far as size, yes, even with the wrap straight back like that, the bell is still just short of 24". It looks longer i know, but thats just due to the main crook being so short.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:50 pm

Good progress today. Had a good friend thats an extremely competent player work out on it, he's played every model I've made thus far. After a whole bunch of playing, he's in agreement this is the best ive done on these horns. Out of curiousity, he threw a different mouthpiece in it and gave it a go (he has been using the same mp as me thus far, grag black 1gm). The change instantly brought the low stuff into the spotlight, much stronger and slotted real well. I tried it myself and got the same result. After playing with it for a bit, it became apparent it shifted the range down by about a fifth, and if you are looking to vlow doors off down low, this is a good thing. The lucky winner was a Marcinkiewicz 107 contra MP. Shocked? I was!

Ill post some video to show it off, but i was really diggin it.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:47 am

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:50 pmThe lucky winner was a Marcinkiewicz 107 contra MP. Shocked? I was!

You shouldn't be. The idea of plugging in what amounts to a small tuba mouthpiece to get Richter-scale pedal notes isn't a new thing. The original Schilke 60 was supposedly based on an Eb tuba mouthpiece that Edward Kleinhammer used for just such a purpose. The question with such mouthpieces is always: "What happens to the middle and upper register?"

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:50 am

JohnL wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:47 am
Jgittleson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:50 pmThe lucky winner was a Marcinkiewicz 107 contra MP. Shocked? I was!
You shouldn't be. The idea of plugging in what amounts to a small tuba mouthpiece to get Richter-scale pedal notes isn't a new thing. The original Schilke 60 was supposedly based on an Eb tuba mouthpiece that Edward Kleinhammer used for just such a purpose. The question with such mouthpieces is always: "What happens to the middle and upper register?"

2 things. First, I'm still getting the high stuff, but id say the 2nd Ab above the staff is the highest comfortable note, vs the Db above that with a greg black 1g.

Second, after some practicing with the 107 and going back to the greg black, i found my lower register is improved, and the 107 acted as a good training tool.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:08 am

Refining the single valve horn, slightly tweaked design. I'm also making multiple tuning slides, so it can be used in Bb, Ab, or Gb. I really like the double valve model, but this single valve is such a good design, and plays so well, that i think its worth while to produce it as well. Since these horns have such a robust range, its conceivable it could be used in situations where Db/Bb will work just fine.

I'm scheduled for a trial session on Nov 4th, so ill plan to have this one, and the TIS, done by then. Had some midnight inspiration for how i want to do the thumb rest, and i sourced some nice nickel silver billet, so I'm going to machine the bell ferrule myself and try to make it match nicer than the previous models.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:29 am

I am really getting tired of using other people parts, so when i stumbled upon a nice billet of nickel silver, i immediately picked it up to nake my own bell ferrule. Imho it is a vast improvement, makes me want to make all the ferrules myself. Im still amazed at how with the exorbitant prices for these horns, how many of the parts are real crap. Sloppy clearances, flimsy by design, and not only does it make it harder to build a horn, you can tell they are junk as soon as you hold them up to the same part of a higher grade.

Anyhow, moving in the right direction. Mights to somthing special for the bell brace rod, thinking it through now.

LeTromboniste · Post by **LeTromboniste** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:46 am

Jgittleson wrote: ↑
doctortrombone wrote: ↑Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:14 pm No, it isn't. I've cut down more than 20 horns. If I can't avoid a major step in bore, I won't build it. Its shoddy workmanship.

But hey---I apologize for getting you all riled up again. Advertise away. I'll let you be.

So tell ya what- you go ahead and make me the custom crook or valve needed for the horn that oh yea, I INVENTED, and ill use you are my supplier. And again, I'm so glad you know so much about my design, apparently you've made 20 of them to my specs! What flattery!

Just playing devil's advocate here, but why don't you make your own bow if the stock one you have doesn't fit the bore of the valve port and/or the beginning of the bell flare?

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:55 am

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:46 am
Jgittleson wrote: ↑

So tell ya what- you go ahead and make me the custom crook or valve needed for the horn that oh yea, I INVENTED, and ill use you are my supplier. And again, I'm so glad you know so much about my design, apparently you've made 20 of them to my specs! What flattery!
Just playing devil's advocate here, but why don't you make your own bow if the stock one you have doesn't fit the bore of the valve port and/or the beginning of the bell flare?

Ultimately that is an option, yes, although the easier solution will be in the valveset. Im cncing custom valves, so its much simpler to just adjust the design to work with a given crook. For the prototype that was the best solution, and to be honest a .040 step is of no consequence. Even shires has this inside their tuning slide (just rebuilt one thats how I know)

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:59 am

Finished up the reciever and bell brace. Man what I'd give to actually get braces that fit. Nothing is more annoying that having to cut shims to get a tight fit (for brand new name brand parts they are allegedly made to fit togrther from the manufacturer), then sit there with a rawhide mallet peening the brace flanges til they fit right, or at least as tight as possible. It makes a job that should take 20-30 mins with solder clean up take 2-3 hours. And in the end the flanges still don't fit as tight as i would like. To make it even more frustrating, the T coming off the bell side brace is off by almost exactly 1° which there is no way to correct. For the record, 1° is extremely visible to the naked eye. It ends up looking like i did a mediocre job, when it reality you can only get it as perfect as the parts allow. Things like this are why I am intent on making my own parts line. Rant over. Lol.

Im hoping to have at least one of the alternate tuning slides done for the weekend, probably need about an hour in fitment work, then 2 hours to solder and finish it all pretty.

BrassedOn · Post by **BrassedOn** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:00 am

Sorry if I missed a post...

Is the current single valve horn like a step and a half or otherwise short not Ab? What’s T position for low D and gap range D? looks lean in a good way.

Looking forward to next video.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:35 am

BrassedOn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:00 am Sorry if I missed a post...

Is the current single valve horn like a step and a half or otherwise short not Ab? What’s T position for low D and gap range D? looks lean in a good way.

Looking forward to next video.

Great question. So i did something a little different with the horn. Typically it would be Db/Ab (same as Bb/F relationship), but being the Bb/G translates to Db/Bb, I decided to set it up with a multi tuning slide arrangement. With the smallest slide its Db/Bb (pictured), then Db/Ab, and if you want it to be fully chromatic, there is alto Db/Gb. I will also offer a valve in tuning slide option, and various tuning options with that as well.

To give you an example in real world application, i have 2 holiday gigs in December i just got the music for, and in the 10 pieces, i can play the bass bone parts with the Db/Bb configuration and no notes fall in the gap in range. So the goal with the single valve model is really maximum versatility when needed.

LeTromboniste · Post by **LeTromboniste** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:01 am

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:59 am Finished up the reciever and bell brace. Man what I'd give to actually get braces that fit. Nothing is more annoying that having to cut shims to get a tight fit (for brand new name brand parts they are allegedly made to fit togrther from the manufacturer), then sit there with a rawhide mallet peening the brace flanges til they fit right, or at least as tight as possible. It makes a job that should take 20-30 mins with solder clean up take 2-3 hours. And in the end the flanges still don't fit as tight as i would like. To make it even more frustrating, the T coming off the bell side brace is off by almost exactly 1° which there is no way to correct. For the record, 1° is extremely visible to the naked eye. It ends up looking like i did a mediocre job, when it reality you can only get it as perfect as the parts allow. Things like this are why I am intent on making my own parts line. Rant over. Lol.

Im hoping to have at least one of the alternate tuning slides done for the weekend, probably need about an hour in fitment work, then 2 hours to solder and finish it all pretty.

I still don't understand why it's the manufacturer's fault that their stock parts made for their horn doesn't fit your custom assembly of a custom bell. Again, if you can't find parts that fit your horn to your satisfaction, why do you not make your own from scratch?

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:03 am

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:01 am
Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:59 am Finished up the reciever and bell brace. Man what I'd give to actually get braces that fit. Nothing is more annoying that having to cut shims to get a tight fit (for brand new name brand parts they are allegedly made to fit togrther from the manufacturer), then sit there with a rawhide mallet peening the brace flanges til they fit right, or at least as tight as possible. It makes a job that should take 20-30 mins with solder clean up take 2-3 hours. And in the end the flanges still don't fit as tight as i would like. To make it even more frustrating, the T coming off the bell side brace is off by almost exactly 1° which there is no way to correct. For the record, 1° is extremely visible to the naked eye. It ends up looking like i did a mediocre job, when it reality you can only get it as perfect as the parts allow. Things like this are why I am intent on making my own parts line. Rant over. Lol.

Im hoping to have at least one of the alternate tuning slides done for the weekend, probably need about an hour in fitment work, then 2 hours to solder and finish it all pretty.
I still don't understand why it's the manufacturer's fault that their stock parts made for their horn doesn't fit your custom assembly of a custom bell. Again, if you can't find parts that fit your horn to your satisfaction, why do you not make your own from scratch?

I thought i was pretty specific but i will reiterate. I am referring to 3 parts direct from a manufacturer that they design to go together. Has nothing to do with my horns.

doctortrombone · Post by **doctortrombone** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:12 am

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:03 am
LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:01 am I still don't understand why it's the manufacturer's fault that their stock parts made for their horn doesn't fit your custom assembly of a custom bell. Again, if you can't find parts that fit your horn to your satisfaction, why do you not make your own from scratch?
I thought i was pretty specific but i will reiterate. I am referring to 3 parts direct from a manufacturer that they design to go together. Has nothing to do with my horns.

You're discussing the bell-side brace and its flange. right? Not all bells have the same taper, so of course there will be variations in the socket angle. Add to that the fact that you're using a shorter neckpipe with no curvature (Getzen curves their single-valve neckpipes), and it's a wonder it's not 10 degrees off. And for all your complaining about the sloppiness of fit at sockets, if you can't get 1 degree of play out of the slop at that particular junction, doesn't that tell us that the fit of these Getzen parts is VERY precise?

I've pointed this out before, and I hope you take it to heart. You're a talented machinist, with good ideas and a strong set of skills. However, instead of referencing your own skills in your sales pitch, you tend to denigrate the work of others. I think it works against you.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:29 am

doctortrombone wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:12 am
Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:03 am I thought i was pretty specific but i will reiterate. I am referring to 3 parts direct from a manufacturer that they design to go together. Has nothing to do with my horns.
You're discussing the bell-side brace and its flange. right? Not all bells have the same taper, so of course there will be variations in the socket angle. Add to that the fact that you're using a shorter neckpipe with no curvature (Getzen curves their single-valve neckpipes), and it's a wonder it's not 10 degrees off. And for all your complaining about the sloppiness of fit at sockets, if you can't get 1 degree of play out of the slop at that particular junction, doesn't that tell us that the fit of these Getzen parts is VERY precise?

I've pointed this out before, and I hope you take it to heart. You're a talented machinist, with good ideas and a strong set of skills. However, instead of referencing your own skills in your sales pitch, you tend to denigrate the work of others. I think it works against you.

Hey my buddy's back! The bell side brace, bar, and socket on the reciever. And no they aren't Getzen, and yes they are all made to match, even with that bell. The brace is placed at the exact same spot on the bell as when used in Bb. Im going to say this again. You know nothing of the intricacies of this horn, please stop pretending you know better. Every time you make an assumption its so far off frankly it's insulting. I'm am used to designing far more complicated things than trombones, and anything you can try to rebut as my ignorance or error, has already been thought of and worked around. If I give a part a big thumbs down, its because it is not even made to work propertly in its native application. If you have a question of how I arrived at a particular conclusion, or how i solved a specific problem, great. That being said, the kid in the classroom trying to tell the teacher they made a mistake on the board act is getting real old.

Aren't you a professor or something? If thats the case it should be beneath you as well.

sirisobhakya · Post by **sirisobhakya** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:50 am

Are your bell and neckpipe from the same manufacturer of the brace parts? If they are not, why would the parts fit? I don’t understand why they are supposed to “made to match” if they are not even from the same manufacturer. Even parts from the same source but different model would not fit together.