Tongue stopping

[MJL]

Dear all,
As a brass teacher, I would be very interested to know what strategies other teachers have for dealing with tongue stopping on the trombone.
Thanks for your help.
MJL

[AndrewMeronek]

In terms of style, there are times when a tongue cutoff is completely appropriate - for example, some kinds of funk licks.

But if one of my students can't control that, it kind of depends on the student. I guess I'd start with tongueless attacks and releases, just to see how well the student does with that, with the idea that a tongueless attack should make it easier to release the note the same way. If they can't do it on the bone, try mouthpiece only. Take away elements to see where the problem is. My first suspicion would be that a student who can't control a tongue stop likely has that tongue stop compensating for some other mechanical problem.

[imsevimse]

Toungue stops can be used if it fits the context, such as when playing strong accentuated staccatos. It's an example of a place where I use them.

I don't hear much misplaced tongue stopping

To end a note gracefully I close the glottis to fade, and I also strive not to close the lips when a note ends since the whole note must have an open sound.

/Tom

[baileyman]

One problem with using a tongue stop that can show up is that the stop is a timing event and it contributes something to rhythm. So in a section, not only does everyone have to have good time on the attack, but also the stop. A way around the clatter of untimed stops is to just stop the air.

[MJL]

Thanks for your comments so far. I like the suggestion of tongueless practice - as Wick observed, tongue stopping is often connected to tonguing the start of the next note. I also like the idea that technical problems in one area of playing may be linked to issues in other areas - trombone technique involves lots of interrelationships. I am aware of the use of tongue stops in lighter music, where I (and various tutor books) can see a role for them. However, I am especially concerned about players who use tongue stops for a lot of the time - especially in classical work, where they are usually inappropriate. I also agree that they can mess up section playing. Any other suggestions, exercises or observations on this issue would be much appreciated. MJL.

[timothy42b]

Perhaps students end up using tongue stop because they've been warned too much about using the glottis, when that is probably the way it's correctly done.

[Doug Elliott]

I don't think I ever use the tongue or glottis to stop a note unless it's part of starting the next note as a series of staccato notes, or I specifically need a special effect. I just stop the air, which feels like using a tiny inhale as an immediate reversal to have the same effect.

It has always worked well for me.

[Chiptingle]

One idea is to generate a spectrum of cutoff sounds/styles, perhaps starting with the shortest, hardest staccato imaginable, say from Stravinsky or Tower of Power...as a ten. Then work backward to the most open and ringing cutoff.

Syllables like “dit”, “tut”, through “dough” and others will obviously come into play.

[Savio]

I'm not sure what I do but suppose it's the air that stop the note like Doug do. Some few times, music might call for a tongue stop. But I believe it's good to learn how to use the air.
If it sounds musical, it's probably right.

Leif

[timothy42b]

I thought I used the air. But that lecture from Jim Markey suggests maybe the glottis is how the air stops.

After that lecture he went to dinner with Glendenning, who strongly disagrees.

[Basbasun]

I am a retired teacher, I wanted my students to be able stop the tones just by stop the air. For some that was difficult at first, for some it was easy. No, I did not recomend using the glottis. In a fast staccato lines the tonguestop is automatic. In some music the tonguestop is idiomatic. The tonguestop is not nesecary for staccato except for fast runs.

[imsevimse]

I am a retired teacher, I wanted my students to be able stop the tones just by stop the air. For some that was difficult at first, for some it was easy. No, I did not recomend using the glottis. In a fast staccato lines the tonguestop is automatic. In some music the tonguestop is idiomatic. The tonguestop is not nesecary for staccato except for fast runs.

It is true. You never said to use the glottis but when I play soft short repeated staccatos I think I use the glottis to make them real short. It is to me at least the same feel as if I whistle short staccatos. I will investigate this later.

I have also heard (somewhere) glottis is more open in loud playing compared to soft playing. This means there could be a change when doing crescendos and diminuendos. A sfz note that starts loud to be subito soft might then be an example where this happens. I will try later. I'm not completely sure what I do.

/Tom

[VJOFan]

There is a lot of discussion on this thread of use of the 'glottis' in stopping notes. I don't think I understand what that means at all. I'm sure it works fine for these players, I just don't get it.

Are those who say they use the glottis closing their throats somehow at the end of a note? Please explain.

In my own mechanics I find that while I am directing air through the mouth, the nasal passage is sealed as it is in swallowing. When I get to the end of blowing the nasal passage opens.

However, generally I think I come down on the side of just letting reduced air pressure do the trick of ending a note. If there is no air pressure the lips stop vibrating. The opening of the nasal passage is just an effect of relaxing my breathing apparatus, not the cause of the note stop. I believe breathing is a largely autonomic function but we can use voluntary muscles to help regulate the flow of air. I think anything done on top of just letting the air flow reduce until there is no buzz is to change the sound of the note ending.

Do what is most efficient to get the effect you want. Tongue stops sound great, for example, in a tight big band brass section.

[timothy42b]

I don't think use of the glottis is usually conscious. But, watch the video of Jim Markey and see what you think.

Farkas talked about it too, long ago.

[imsevimse]

I am a retired teacher, I wanted my students to be able stop the tones just by stop the air. For some that was difficult at first, for some it was easy. No, I did not recomend using the glottis. In a fast staccato lines the tonguestop is automatic. In some music the tonguestop is idiomatic. The tonguestop is not nesecary for staccato except for fast runs.

It is true. You never said to use the glottis but when I play soft short repeated staccatos I think I use the glottis to make them real short. It is to me at least the same feel as if I whistle short staccatos. I will investigate this later.

I have also heard (somewhere) glottis is more open in loud playing compared to soft playing. This means there could be a change when doing crescendos and diminuendos. A sfz note that starts loud to be subito soft might then be an example where this happens. I will try later. I'm not completely sure what I do.

/Tom

I have checked how I do this now and I'm pretty sure it is yes on both my statements above, but I can play short soft staccatos and piano-forte both ways. I mean to just stop blowing the note works too, but if I do it feels very unnatural especially if there are repeated staccatos. If I do the same as when I whistle it is much more relaxed. When I do this I don't think I completely shut the glottis because I don't grunt, it is just a decrease in glottis that helps. I also checked a sforzando or a forte-piano and I do think I close the glottis to control this. I can do it with a more open feeling in the glottis too but when I do it feels unnatural to me, which tells me I don't do them like that normally.

I'm not trying to explain what is the correct method, I just explain how I do this kind of articulation and it is not something that I think is difficult, at least something that is easy. If we don't do a tongue stop what do we do? Stop blowing absolutely works, and stop blowing is how most sustained notes ends. It feels natural, except when playing repeated short staccatos.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

Are those who say they use the glottis closing their throats somehow at the end of a note? Please explain.

I think I'm the one who started the talk about the glottis. It is rather unconscious and I have not worked to make that happen. To me it is something to use at the end of a note more than to stop a note - if that makes any sense -
I just questioned myself what to do if a short staccato and not a tongue stop, and I feel I very much do the same as when I whistle. If you whistle staccatos you might not use the tongue at all instead you use the glottis. When I play short staccatos I have the same feel in the throat except I start the notes with the tongue. I don't think I completely shut the glottis either, just narrow the passage to compensate something since I'm not starting the next note with a grunt.
I don't think this is something you should think much of. I haven't. If it sounds good it is good.

In my own mechanics I find that while I am directing air through the mouth, the nasal passage is sealed as it is in swallowing. When I get to the end of blowing the nasal passage opens. 

The nasal passage is sealed until I stop blowing and also when I breathe in with my mouth, if I don't deliberately breathe with my nose. It is possible to breath in through the mouth and have the nasal passage open. When I have both mouth and nose open most air comes in through the mouth. Not much air comes in through the nose.

/Tom

[Basbasun]

Yes Tom. When I whistle staccato i most often start the whistle with my glottis, but I don´t stop the whilstle with the glottis. Actually who does? (Yes I have seen the video)

[imsevimse]

Yes Tom. When I whistle staccato i most often start the whistle with my glottis, but I don´t stop the whilstle with the glottis. Actually who does? (Yes I have seen the video)

I do stop the whistle with the glottis when I whistle staccato, but I don't stop with the glottis if I whistle a sustained note. It just dies when I stop blowing.

When I play staccato the feeling is the same as when I whistle except the start because I use the tongue. I think I close the glottis in the end of a staccato when I play because the feeling is the same as when I do the whistle, but I don't think I shut the glottis completely, I think there is a slight difference how much.

I don't think I shut completely, because I do not grunt when I do the next attack. I think I just decrease the opening a bit, just to help make the note short but still with an open staccato sound that is "round". I guess it is a very short and fast dimenuendo that makes the ending "round".

Sorry! It is not easy to explain this in English for me. I'm really trying my best so please, don't laugh...

I can do staccato and keep the glottis open too, but then the abdomen has to work very fast to regulate the stop of the airstream between every note. It's like saying or singing ha-ha-ha-ha. I actually do this to be able to sing ha-ha-ha but somewhere at higher speed it feels very awkward to do this while playing staccato and at a certain speed I can not sing ha-ha-ha either. I can not work the abdomen fast enough.

When I check this I don't use the abdomen the same when I play the short staccato as when I sing ha-ha-ha. Maybe the quick moves of the abdomen - as when I sing- is a better way to play staccatos. Maybe this is something I should try as an experiment, but on the other hand I have never recieved any complains on how I end notes and it is not something I hear as a problem when I record myself.

Anyhow, my abdomen does not jump when I play short staccatos, it is just a continuous move in one direction - moving in. When I sing ha-ha-ha-ha my abdomen jumps for every "ha" I do

It is possible to sing a-a-a with only the glottis as a help to separate. If glottis is closed there will be "hard" ("a") attacks. This will be the sound if the air opens glottis,. but to sing ha-ha-ha needs the glottis to stay open in between every "ha".

Maybe this is how it is done if not with help of the glottis?

Like a lot of other things with techniques it is impossible to be completely sure. What really happens in my mouth and throat is hidden but I've tried to be as honest as possible with my theories of what I think happens when I play.

Experience from my own playing is the only way I can contribute to this discussion. I'm sure others have ideas on what's going on based on their experience and studies.

Maybe what I do goes against what others teach? If this is the case then we might have a good discussion here soon.

Ideas on how to teach and description of how to end notes without the use of a tounge stop is what the OP wishes.

/Tom

[BurckhardtS]

I don't think I ever use the tongue or glottis to stop a note unless it's part of starting the next note as a series of staccato notes, or I specifically need a special effect. I just stop the air, which feels like using a tiny inhale as an immediate reversal to have the same effect.

It has always worked well for me.

Doug,

This is a slight tangent, and I think I've meant to ask you this before, but I know the 'tongue stopping' thing is pervasive in big band horn sections, especially here. Do you feel like this could be detrimental to playing when done regularly and do you feel like you're able to get that 'immediate stop' sound with that method?

To add to the topic, and sort of follow my question, I know that at when we play as a horn section in big bands here, we almost always tongue stop to make clear cut-offs. It's a way to get everything to sound together and recognize where exactly to cut notes off at. While it sounds good and sure is satisfying when a 14 piece horn section sound comes to a screeching halt, I've never been convinced it's a 100% healthy way to play a brass instrument.

[imsevimse]

I don't think I ever use the tongue or glottis to stop a note unless it's part of starting the next note as a series of staccato notes, or I specifically need a special effect. I just stop the air, which feels like using a tiny inhale as an immediate reversal to have the same effect.

It has always worked well for me.

To add to the topic, and sort of follow my question, I know that at when we play as a horn section in big bands here, we almost always tongue stop to make clear cut-offs. It's a way to get everything to sound together and recognize where exactly to cut notes off at. While it sounds good and sure is satisfying when a 14 piece horn section sound comes to a screeching halt, I've never been convinced it's a 100% healthy way to play a brass instrument.

Interesting! I have never heard of that as a method and rule of making clear cut-offs. To always play like that? Is this something that is taught at the highest music college level in USA or where is this taught?

From what Doug said he did not use tongue stop or glottis stops other than under certain circumstances. I feel the same. He said to just stop blowing to end a note. This is also what I've been taught as the method to end a note. To me tongue stops has to do with playing short accentuated notes and often when there are several short accentuated notes in a row, as an effect in the right context.

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

I was taught to never use a tongue stop, by multiple teachers. I like the sound and feel of what I do, and I think I can approximate the same effect in a much more musical way.

[GabrielRice]

Here's a take from an experienced player and (I think) pretty good teacher (yours truly):

There are several things that brass players are typically taught not to do that are probably bad habits to be in, but that have their places in certain settings. Tongue stopping is one of them; holding air in your body between the inhale and start of a note is another.

My take is that neither one of those things is a good habit to be in, in the sense that you don't want them to be the only way you CAN play. But I know from years of professional playing experience that I need both at times.

Playing in pit orchestras for shows, opera, and ballet, it is common for the conductor to do an early prep and then wait for something to happen onstage, and that something often happens without little or no warning. So we players in the pit have to be ready to play at a split second's notice, often without another prep. In those cases I take a breath but not the hugest breath in the world and hold it. If I get a prep I top off, and if I don't I simply play without taking another breath. IMPORTANT: I can do this without getting into bad habits (The Dreaded Valsalva Maneuver!!!) because I reinforce good habits of freely-moving, well-timed air in my daily practicing.

Likewise for tongue stopping. Sometimes I need to play SO short and with such a defined note ending that a tongue stop is the simplest way to achieve that sound. I don't do it habitually - in fact, I don't do any particular note shape habitually. What I practice and teach is to make note shapes - including how you start, what happens in the middle, and how you end - always, always, always mindful and deliberate. Then there are no unhealthy habits, there are just choices.

Also re tongue stops: there are some great, great symphonic trumpet players who use and teach their students to use a lot of tongue stops. Charlie Schlueter (retired principal of the Boston Symphony) and James Thompson, former principal trumpet of the Montreal and Atlanta Symphonies and now professor at Eastman, are the most prominent examples. Orchestras around the world are filled with their students. It's not just a jazz thing.

[baileyman]

...What I practice and teach is to make note shapes - including how you start, what happens in the middle, and how you end - always, always, always mindful and deliberate. Then there are no unhealthy habits, there are just choices.

...

What a great way to give someone tools for expressiveness!

[imsevimse]

What strikes me as symptomatic at this forum and also the old forum is that most questions asked even though they are answered remain secrets and mysteries.

I'm sure we do our best to answer, but there is not much information in this thread that help us reach next level.

How to teach the thing? How to deal with it as a teacher? How to NOT do it?

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

I think I answered those things, and Gabe elaborated superbly - things that I have said before - practice lots of different ways so you are prepared for anything, and make everything a musical choice instead of a default way you always play.

[imsevimse]

I think I answered those things, and Gabe elaborated superbly - things that I have said before - practice lots of different ways so you are prepared for anything, and make everything a musical choice instead of a default way you always play.

Yes this is true. I agree. Music guides everything but I am thinking about more hands on advice. Those are naturally difficult to give because every student is different and it often calls for a series of individual lesson to give them. I understand this but in this case the OP wants advice from a teachers perspective. I guess how to adress the issue? I'm not trying to criticise you or Gabe or anyone specific I just think I have still no clue how to teach or NOT teach this. How to adress this with the student? It is just my observation.

/Tom

[GabrielRice]

Try having the student exaggerate the tongue stop with a crescendo to it - kind of a huuUUUTTT. Find ways to get the student aware of what's happening and what it sounds like. Then explore the options with the student.

For notes shapes, I sometimes draw pictures to stimulate the imagination of all the different ways a note can sound. Ultimately it's about sound though - imagining sound and trying to replicate it.

[Doug Elliott]

"Ha" vs "Hot"

A short "ha" is much more pleasant to hear than chopping the end with a T.

If you want the effect of an abrupt stop, try adding a breath accent at the end, but don't stop it with the tongue.

Knowing how to end a note cleanly is ,just as important as starting it cleanly.

[Basbasun]

For me there no good with the glotis stop on either whistling or trombone. The tonguest is for teachers a no no.
But it is used by mana players in sertain situations. Sometimes in classical music, in manny bigbands, sometimes marked as -4.

[Doug Elliott]

-4, or whatever beat, does not mean a tongue stop. It only means to hold the note and stop it beat 4. Not a tongue stop, just a stop.

[Basbasun]

Well, actually I know that. The tongue stop is somthing the sections will have an agreement on. There is a sign used in some contemporary music, a "T" above the note. Usually after a cresendo.

[BrassedOn]

I almost got written up in the military for NOT tongue stopping!


SORRY SORRY for the very long response.

Someone pointed out that we actually had not given clear advice on how to help this teacher and player.
So, HOW do we solve the problem through teaching?

For teaching, I agree, back to basics. There may be something else in the individual players' articulation or sound concept that is messing him up. But I think this is about creating a new habit from scratch. Focus on "what to do right" rather than "what you're doing wrong" except as a brief contrast.

Start with the explaining basic concepts through listening, describing the mechanics, controlled practice, and application. And of course rechecking later. This is part of reprogramming.

And bring other players into the conversation, because this is solid basic knowledge for all your brass players. Someone else certainly has this issue.

1. Listen with the learner to a range of musical styles to hear differences in tone, articulation etc. Being a good player is recognizing there are many sounds you can produce. Some are really common to many kinds of playing. Some are rarely used. For example, while a glissando is fun! It really is not that common of a feature. Like Bolero versus Lassus. Yes, I'd would play both of those for the young player. And I'd play Tuba Mirum from the Requiem, DCI finals, Bob Minzer trombone soli, Lindberg, and on and on. Point out when you think you hear more typical open (ending the breath) endings, glottal stop, or tongue stop.

2. Relate articulation to speech. Speaking is familiar, and relating to familiar and correct (like the word "tah" or "tea" is better than relating to familiar and wrong.

3. Spoken syllables (and trombone articulation) have three components.
Onset, initiation of the sound with the tongue like "t" or "d' (or "m" in speach, but not trombone) Trombone also uses k and g.
Nucleus is the body of the note, lips vibrating because the air is moving across them.
Coda is the ending or release of the note: ending by ending air, stopping at the glottis, or tongue stopping. Coda means "tail". Just like the other meaning of coda in music.

If you need a point of contrast on the importance of not tongue stopping, try playing "ti ti ti ti ti" fast versus "tut tut tut tut tut" fast. I think for most, tongue stopping inhibits tonging faster, and this is a motivation to NOT "tut" all the time.

4. Ending the air. Working without the horn first, singing a short passage with just ending the air. If that needs help, try inhaling after each note. tah ' tah ' tah ' tah' That forces a breath ending. In music a long note followed by a breath accent then another note is typically a breath ending because we do not bother to use the glottis or tongue to stop the note. Efficient.

Then work with mouthpiece, and then short passages with the horn. Like 5 notes. With students, they lose a lot of interest in clinics if they do not play their horn. So cycle through these, sing, buzz, play to keep the lesson moving.

Vary practice with different nucleus sounds like "aaa" "iii" "uuu" "oooh".

Vary practice with different onsets "d" and "t". I had a trumpeter that played for years with only t tonguing. That was tough to change.

Onset and slur a passage and have a coda on that last note only.

Coda by ending the air could have the most open, resonating ending because nothing is getting physically stopped by closing or dampening. Just the air moving apparatus of the lung and chest cease movement.

5. Ending with the glottis. We use the glottal stop in speaking. It is the "tt" sound in a Cockney "butter" "bu'uh". I get my students saying "better get a butter knife" "be'uh ge'uh bu'uh knife". Fun. Also one or two glottal stops on "important" depending how you say it.

If you keep your mouth open and hold your breath, that is probably a glottal stop.

Same cycle of practice as above.

BTW, all English works (spoken as an isolated word) start with a consonant articulation as the onset. Clear for a word like "toe" or "see". But also "apple" or "up". The vowel is the nucleus. Before the vowel the onset is a glottal stop! Try saying "up" without starting with a closed glottis. Kind of hard.

Try saying "see" and ending with just stoping the vibration but continuing the air "seeehhhhhh", by breath ending (kind of hard), and by coda with the glottis. We do this a lot in speech. I think in music, we use the glottis a lot, unconsciously. So we need to control coda by ending breath and by glottis.

6. I would wait a long time before reintroducing tongue stop, and likely I would do so with a jazz passage with "doo, dah, dit", where it is common to the genre. And big band endings with big marcatto notes or sharp cut offs.

Other ideas to relate to articulation.
I like to relate to strings.

Air moving is bow moving. Lips are strings that vibrate only with air. So to stop vibration on a brass instrument, we have to stop the air some how.

The bow starting to move and start a note is the onset. String players work hard to have strong accented entrance for the onset and imperceptible onsets. Depending on the passage.

The bow moving is the nucleus. String players alter the bow speed and pressure to change the tone. Brass does that with vowel shape and air, and maybe other face muscle changes, dropping the jaw, etc.

If the bow is moving across the string and the player lifts the bow, that is similar to a breath release because the instrument is still vibrating but the energy source is gone so it quickly decays. Very open ending. Great for pretty or gentle passages, soft playing. But also for very loud releases because everything is allowed to ring and ring and ring in the hall. Same for brass.

If the bow is moving across the string and the player stops the bow on the string, the string stops vibrating. It has a more closed coda. This is close to a brass player glottal stop. String players use this for detache (dey ta shay) passages. String and brass work on the coda to make it gentle or abrupt.

String players may also dampen a string with their finger or palm as a softer way to end a note, much more gentle than stopping a moving bow on the string, but more clear dampened ending than lifting the bow in motion. Brass players do not. Do not close your lips to stop a sound because that changes the pitch. Stop the air.

On piano, a percussion instrument, the finger strikes the key at the onset, the string rings is the nucleus. Technically, the decay is probably a kind of coda until the vibration stops. If the player is holding down the rightmost sustain pedal, and plays the note, during a ringing note sustaining, but then lift the sustain pedal, they are dampening the note. They work to control whether this is a sharp or gentle coda.

Timpani is similar, where the note rings and the player uses the fingers or hand on the coda to dampen and stop the note.

[Doug Elliott]

The glottis is not necessarily the starting and ending of notes with no tongue, and I think it shouldn't be used that way at all. It is entirely possible, and I think preferred, the keep the air passage entirely open and control the air from below at it's source rather than turning it on and off like a valve.

When I speak of "no tongue" playing or practicing, that's what I'm talking about. And the same goes for extremely soft playing. Blow almost no air, don't restrict it at the throat. Like whispering.

[imsevimse]

The glottis is not necessarily the starting and ending of notes with no tongue, and I think it shouldn't be used that way at all. It is entirely possible, and I think prefereed, the keep the air passage entirely open and control the air from below at it's source rather than turning it on and off like a valve.

When I speak of "no tongue" playing or practicing, that's what I'm talking about. And the same goes for extremely soft playing. Blow almost no air, don't restrict it at the throat. Like whispering.

That's a good remark. Somebody might think playing with no tongue means to start notes with a glottis attack.

I can NOT think of any occasion where I would want to start notes with a glottis attack except a growl. A glottis-start problem is reviled by grunts from the throat.

I don't think I would like a glottis ending either. Not a defined ending with the method to completely shut the glottis. That would be to close the throat to stop the air.

I can NOT think of a situation I would close the throat to stop the air.

What I think I do is to "dampen" short staccatos with the glottis to help make them "round", but I don't think I shut completely, because I don't grunt while I'm playing. As I explained earlier I come to this conclusion by comparing how I whistle short staccatos and compared this to how I say or sing "ha-ha-ha". It does not feel the same but more close to whisteling. Read my previous post in the thread to understand why I think I use the glottis. Of course I'm not sure of anything because I have not been filmed but I think it is a good qualified guess built on my observations.
Right or wrong? Another question but it seems to work.

I almost got written up in the military for NOT tongue stopping!


SORRY SORRY for the very long response.

Someone pointed out that we actually had not given clear advice on how to help this teacher and player.
So, HOW do we solve the problem through teaching?

I don't mind that long post. A lot of good things said. I'm still reading....

/Tom

[BrassedOn]

What I think I do is to "dampen" short staccatos with the glottis to help make them "round", but I don't think I shut completely...

Yes, that sounds right. And yes players are using all kinds of muscles to “shape sound”, sometimes for good sometimes not. So not only stops. I agree that a full stop or vigorous change in the glottis might sound terrible. A,lot of lessons on air Arnold Jacobs Song and Windmis about deep natural open breath which by its nature eliminates source of constriction.

I’m going to monitor my playing on bone bass bone and tuba this week and we can compare notes. I think the condition where the glottis is in play is similar to what you said about repeated staccato. Maybe also the glottis helps maintain the tank of air that is under elastic containment in the lungs between releases. Not necessarily a stop but a valve to contain air. Hmm. Intriguing.