Williams Lead-pipes. Help!

[tskeldon]

Hello,

I’m having a couple of tiny ‘rust’ spots fixed on a Williams 4, and given the change in instrumental landscape, I'm thinking I should have the original lead-pipe removed while its on the bench. Such things weren’t done in my time, but nowadays it seems not only popular, but almost obligatory, given the way it apparently transforms the way any given instrument blows.

I'm assuming that this modification is not just a way to make the wrong mouthpiece work better with a given horn, and that it is another legitimate tool? It seems to me odd though that designers clever enough to craft fine instruments would fail so routinely in consideration of the best lead pipe as is suggested by consumers' general rejection of their original pipes.

That being the case, and understanding the physics (both acoustical and fluid) involved in the mechanical production and propagation of standing waves in single ended tubes myself, I find that the 'subjective', but more valuable experiential descriptions that performers use and share here don't connect to my physics. That being the case...

Can someone please educate me (and others new to this interesting aspect of equipment), or, direct me to previous posts that will catch me up on the 'percieved' effects that subtle changes in lead pipes have on the various performance parameters, such as slotting, tuning, etc., so that I can participate in the conversation more advisedly.

Most crucially at this point, with the instrument soon to be on the work bench, I don't know where to buy lead-pipes to start this exploration, or how to size-order them for the Williams 4. What I get from reading here is that you must simply buy and try, until you find one that works for you.

Do I need to commit to a brand or a system for securing the lead-pipe, or is 'press-fit' the best/only option?
I'm ready to do that, but I can't easily identify where the lead-pipes come from by just looking at the Shires, Rath, Kanstul, etc. websites. Some of you talk about having boxes of them, but how did you come by them?

Maybe I'm missing something. If any of you Williams guys have a recommendations of where to start, for a Williams 4 (.490 Bore) I would very much appreciate any advice you might have to share. I'll spare people the physics, but I'm sure a practical tutorial would be much appreciated by those not yet up to speed on this.

Thanks

[BGuttman]

You are embarking on a fool's errand with regard to connecting physics and playing characteristics.

Problem is there are psychoacoustics, black arts, and person-to-person differences that will override the best scientific data collection.

If there were one leadpipe that worked best for everybody, we'd all be using it. How many different leadpipes are available?

I am a staunch advocate of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". If the original leadpipe was working fine for you, it's OK. If you think a different leadpipe will fix a perceived problem, you are about to embark on a long, expensive (and probably unfruitful) journey with no clear endpoint.

If you want to pull the leadpipe I won't stop you. But I personally don't think it's that good an idea.













9and probably unfrit

[Matt K]

There aren't many pipes for .490 bore. You could use a 485 pipe and have it expanded.

The 'problem' with the single-leadpipe-soldered-in is that most people have different oral cavities and a lot of people prefer a variety of mouthpieces. So what do you change? Well, the reason leadpipes are popular is that it sort of lets you do both until you find a combination that works for your individual characteristics.

Or you can stick with the leadpipe it came with and make it work through some change in your playing or through the mouthpiece. Or perhaps neither, there are still lots of players who are using an original or copy of the Bach 42 or 50 and Conn 88 designs, afterall.

Given the scarcity of 490 pipes, your best bet may be to just leave it in. Your tech may or may not have success in removing the pipe and it's possible to destroy the inner slide in the process.

If you do want to go through with it, Shires has a good description on their site as well as this video demonstration by their former sales rep, Ben Griffin.

Rath and Edwards have a similar sizing scheme where very, very basically a 1 is more articulate and a 3 is more broad and a 2 is a middle of the road. Most Shires players stick with a 2.

Basically there are a couple of key considerations: the rate/shape of the taper, the position of the taper, the length of the pipe, and what material the pipe is made out of. The taper is very subtle and even two 'identical' pipes might have a little variation. E.g. the difference between a Shires 1 and 3 is noticeable when you play even though if you were to measure them the difference would be difficult to detect without tools. Because the differences are small, the machining variation could be such that if you order a Shires 1 and a Shires 1.5, the two of them might be quite similar as the "1" could be a little broader than the 'true' 1 size and the 1.5 could be a little more articulate than the 'true' 1.5 size.

So depending on what you wanted to accomplish, you'd choose accordingly. I've had a lot of success with the Shires #2 pipe in a variety of horns so that's my go-to pipe for recommendations if you wanted to try something new. You actually have two options: You could use their 485 pipe and have it expanded or get a 495 (from their Michael Davis model) or maybe a stock .500 pipe and have it buffed down to the .490 bore. Both are conceivable.

Brassark also offers aftermarket pipes that are based off of copies of good playing horns. The only sizes that are close that they offer are a King 2B pipe and a 32H pipe, though they will make ones that are .490 right off the bat so you wouldn't have to get it modified after the fact.

You'll notice that some horns have threads for their leadpipes. You may wish to install one of these receivers. It'll take extra labor and parts. It makes the pipe a little more secure (when you remove your mouthpiece in particular). You may still use pipes from those manufacturers if you go 'pressfit' that is, you don't use any threads, but you'll have to have the threads on any leadpipes you use filed down. That's actually my favorite arrangement. It makes it difficult to remove the pipe unintentionally but they don't get stuck like they can in threads.

[Slidemo]

I would be very wary of attempting to pull the leadpipe on a Williams! As noted above, you generally get to keep the pipe or the inner slide leg, not both.

If there is something you don't like about the feel of the horn, try a different mouthpiece. (There are many to choose from, and if you go down the Doug Elliot route there are many options to try before you have to resort to pulling out leadpipes!)


However..... if you must try different pipes there is another way and keep your original pipe and inner slide intact by having your tech remove the whole upper inner and replace with another leadpipe-less inner. Have them mark the old inner with a marker pen so you can put it back in the same way if/when your new leadpipe search ends.

At .490 bore your choice of inners might be limited, off the top of my head Bach model 8 is 490. (Not sure they even make these anymore?) Otherwise King 2B lower legs are 491 and Bach 16 uppers are 495 so may fit ok.

I did this recently with an old King 2B as the end of the leadpipe had worn away so much (this horn had been loved!) the mouthpiece wobbled while playing, which was annoying. I want to be able to put the old pipe and inner back in if I don't find a leadpipe I like that plays as well as it did before. Interesting the modern inner leg is a bit shorter than the one that came out.

Bear in mind this is a vintage 2B of which there are many examples available to purchase right now. A Williams 4 on the other hand..... Those babies are alot harder to come by, I really wouldn't be doing surgery on one of those, there's no guarantee it will come out better.

Just my 2c!

Hamo.

[Jimkinkella]

John Duda is still making Williams parts. You should be able to get a pipeless inner from him.

[tskeldon]

Hi everyone,

I love this forum! I had planned on coming back today to answer my own questions, after doing more research myself, but you kindly beat me to it. Thank-you for that. Having done the research I should have done before troubling you, and am now resolved to leaving the Williams lead-pipe alone. It was born a Williams, and it will live as one, or fall silent as one, but it will survive as one.

I'm sure that Doug Elliot can help me win the greatest response possible from this particular horn, and what is more, that I will come to love it for what it is, rather than what it is not. You see, I have never actually played it! It was in my mind to embrace the 'new' paradigm, having been away for 30+ years. Lead-pipe substitutions were not yet on the horizon then, but they certainly proliferate on the scene today. Did Getzen start it commercially?

The NRC (National Research Council), in Canada, once spent 2 million dollars trying to use modern
technology to build a violin that sounded, played and responded like a Stradivarius violin. They failed! They were only able to replicate the Stradivarius on any single parameter at a time, and over a limited part of the instruments range.

The scientist would come to realize that they had in fact succeeded (although still at exorbitant cost), as the anomalies they hoped to overcome were as much a part of the nature of Stradivarius' own organic invention. Everything is a trade off. When you win something, you lose something else; whether you notice it or not. You just have to value the traits your instrument has more than the ones it doesn't.

The 13 year old violin prodigy Yehudi Menuhin was asked if he wanted a Stradivarius or a Guanerius for his bar mitzvah. He said ideally I need the Stradivarius for Bach and Mozart, because of the sweetness of tone, and the beauty of the legato, and I need the Guanerius for Bruch and Sibelius, because of the projection, crisp articulations and breadth of sound. He got both!

Tim

[Matt K]

I'm sure that Doug Elliot can help me win the greatest response possible from this particular horn, and what is more, that I will come to love it for what it is, rather than what it is not. You see, I have never actually played it! It was in my mind to embrace the 'new' paradigm, having been away for 30+ years. Lead-pipe substitutions were not yet on the horizon then, but they certainly proliferate on the scene today. Did Getzen start it commercially?

As far as I am aware, Minick on the west coast and Chuck McAlexander in NYC were doing custom leadpipes ~70s/80s and their popularity caught on and then was later added to stock horns. Bach & Conn both introduced it on stock models sometime a few years later memory serving - though it would be helpful to be corrected on that so that we can use this thread as future reference.

Another potential contributing factor may be that for a very long time, mouthpieces were pretty homogenous. That can lead to a selection bias. The only people who end up succeeding are those for whom the equipment works. Ergo, if your physiology worked for a 12C, great! In other words, the lack of customization may have resulted in more homogenous trombone players and the customization trend might have some influence on reducing the survivorship bias. Such a claim would be more-or-less impossible to quantify, let alone prove but for some the paradigm is wholly confusing since older, completely fixed equipment plays fine, if not ideally for them!

[TheSheriff]

Hello,

I’m having a couple of tiny ‘rust’ spots fixed on a Williams 4, and given the change in instrumental landscape, I'm thinking I should have the original lead-pipe removed while its on the bench. Such things weren’t done in my time, but nowadays it seems not only popular, but almost obligatory, given the way it apparently transforms the way any given instrument blows.

I'm assuming that this modification is not just a way to make the wrong mouthpiece work better with a given horn, and that it is another legitimate tool? It seems to me odd though that designers clever enough to craft fine instruments would fail so routinely in consideration of the best lead pipe as is suggested by consumers' general rejection of their original pipes.

That being the case, and understanding the physics (both acoustical and fluid) involved in the mechanical production and propagation of standing waves in single ended tubes myself, I find that the 'subjective', but more valuable experiential descriptions that performers use and share here don't connect to my physics. That being the case...

Can someone please educate me (and others new to this interesting aspect of equipment), or, direct me to previous posts that will catch me up on the 'percieved' effects that subtle changes in lead pipes have on the various performance parameters, such as slotting, tuning, etc., so that I can participate in the conversation more advisedly.

Most crucially at this point, with the instrument soon to be on the work bench, I don't know where to buy lead-pipes to start this exploration, or how to size-order them for the Williams 4. What I get from reading here is that you must simply buy and try, until you find one that works for you.

Do I need to commit to a brand or a system for securing the lead-pipe, or is 'press-fit' the best/only option?
I'm ready to do that, but I can't easily identify where the lead-pipes come from by just looking at the Shires, Rath, Kanstul, etc. websites. Some of you talk about having boxes of them, but how did you come by them?

Maybe I'm missing something. If any of you Williams guys have a recommendations of where to start, for a Williams 4 (.490 Bore) I would very much appreciate any advice you might have to share. I'll spare people the physics, but I'm sure a practical tutorial would be much appreciated by those not yet up to speed on this.

Thanks

=======

I strongly suggest that you leave it alone. Really. Just leave it alone, and make the music that is in your head come out of the trombone. Simple.

----------

[blast]

I am with the leave-it-alone crowd. Unless you have good reason to modify a trombone DON'T. I have modified many that had issues that I thought I could solve.... and mostly I have been right. Some luck.... and years of experience. My two Holton basses are wonderful.... on stock leadpipes. Other fine players hate those pipes but they work for me.

[tskeldon]

Thank you again to those of you who have posted since my update. As I said a few posts ago:

Having now done the research I should have done before troubling you all, and am now resolved to leaving the Williams lead-pipe alone. It was born a Williams, and it will live as one, or fall silent as one, but it will survive as one.

Sober minds prevail!

[TheSheriff]

Thank you again to those of you who have posted since my update. As I said a few posts ago:

Having now done the research I should have done before troubling you all, and am now resolved to leaving the Williams lead-pipe alone. It was born a Williams, and it will live as one, or fall silent as one, but it will survive as one.

Sober minds prevail!

----------

Well done!!

========

[tskeldon]

Hi again,

I should say that I finished my time, what little of it there was, as an orchestral player. This 'multiple' instrument, mouthpiece, lead-pipe thing was, I think, originally a commercial/jazz thing. At the time it was typical, at least in my neck of the woods, that an orchestral player had only one instrument and mouthpiece. Mine was a wonderful 1952 Conn 8H that I had Larry Minick build a straight-through f-section for out of a blank tuba rotor around 1979. But prior to that, I had a LA Williams 6 that I got after a long trial session at Dave Robbins house in 1974. I still have the glossy light-blue ad/promo sheet, 'An Artistic Achievement, Williams Perfection Trombone', that Dave gave me with Earl's home phone number written on it.

Sadly, I sold that instrument not long after for not being able to project any further use of it, when finally I was required to commit ('exclusively', as was required of me at that time and in that environment) to orchestral performance. I did audition another Williams, 10 years later, owned by a very talented commercial Bass Trombonist in our town, but I was too much convicted to the conceit of large bore horns and mouth pieces by then to know what to make of it, or to give it a fare evaluation, so I passed on it for not knowing any better. Now, with 30 years between me and the assortment of Schilke 51's and 52's that came between me and an orchestral trombone, I am in a better place to pick up a small-bore trombone, sans vocational bias or obligation, and once again come to appreciate the joys, potential, and lyrical ease of a small bore trombone.

Tim

[TheSheriff]

Hi again,

I should say that I finished my time, what little of it there was, as an orchestral player. This 'multiple' instrument, mouthpiece, lead-pipe thing was, I think, originally a commercial/jazz thing. At the time it was typical, at least in my neck of the woods, that an orchestral player had only one instrument and mouthpiece. Mine was a wonderful 1952 Conn 8H that I had Larry Minick build a straight-through f-section for out of a blank tuba rotor around 1979. But prior to that, I had a LA Williams 6 that I got after a long trial session at Dave Robbins house in 1974. I still have the glossy light-blue ad/promo sheet, 'An Artistic Achievement, Williams Perfection Trombone', that Dave gave me with Earl's home phone number written on it.

Sadly, I sold that instrument not long after for not being able to project any further use of it, when finally I was required to commit ('exclusively', as was required of me at that time and in that environment) to orchestral performance. I did audition another Williams, 10 years later, owned by a very talented commercial Bass Trombonist in our town, but I was too much convicted to the conceit of large bore horns and mouth pieces by then to know what to make of it, or to give it a fare evaluation, so I passed on it for not knowing any better. Now, with 30 years between me and the assortment of Schilke 51's and 52's that came between me and an orchestral trombone, I am in a better place to pick up a small-bore trombone, sans vocational bias or obligation, and once again come to appreciate the joys, potential, and lyrical ease of a small bore trombone.

Tim

=====

Nice!

-------

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Just curious as to what era your 4 is from.

[Jnoxon]

I know this thread is a bit older than a normal reply. But just for infos sake! Williams used the same pipe in the 4 and the 6 horns. .490 and .500 same pipe he just cut the length for the 4 that way it would fit either horn. The mouthpiece end is a Morse taper very standard thing, so if the other end is at .500 by cutting about a 1/4 to 3/8ths that end is now .490.

[elmsandr]

I know this thread is a bit older than a normal reply. But just for infos sake! Williams used the same pipe in the 4 and the 6 horns. .490 and .500 same pipe he just cut the length for the 4 that way it would fit either horn. The mouthpiece end is a Morse taper very standard thing, so if the other end is at .500 by cutting about a 1/4 to 3/8ths that end is now .490.

Interesting... Was there no straight tubing at the end of the pipe? Is that common on small bore horns?

Large bore tenors and basses usually have a couple of inches of straight or very minimal taper tubing at the end of the leadpipe. (The straight section is part of how you get the leadpipes in different lengths without changing the bore).

Cheers,
Andy

[mrdeacon]

I know this thread is a bit older than a normal reply. But just for infos sake! Williams used the same pipe in the 4 and the 6 horns. .490 and .500 same pipe he just cut the length for the 4 that way it would fit either horn. The mouthpiece end is a Morse taper very standard thing, so if the other end is at .500 by cutting about a 1/4 to 3/8ths that end is now .490.

Interesting... Was there no straight tubing at the end of the pipe? Is that common on small bore horns?

Large bore tenors and basses usually have a couple of inches of straight or very minimal taper tubing at the end of the leadpipe. (The straight section is part of how you get the leadpipes in different lengths without changing the bore).

Cheers,
Andy

The way I read it... seemed like Williams cut the pipe till it fit. So I guess the 4 pipe has little to no straight tubing at the end of the leadpipe.

Does anyone know how long the 4 and 6 pipes usually are? From there we could take a guess as to how much straight tubing there is on the Williams pipes...

[Jnoxon]

Williams model 6 lead-pipe is 8 inches and measures .499 at the "south" end of the lead-pipe. You would have to take 1.375 (1 3/8) inches off of the "south" end to get to a .490 diameter so that leaves about 6.625 (6 5/8) for the length of the model 4 lead-pipe. The Venturi measures .4450 and is exactly .500 or 1/2 inch from the end of the mouthpiece shank. The mouthpiece shank is exactly 1.00 inches into the lead-pipe. This follows the Bert Herrick thing of the Venturi should be .500 (1/2") from the end of the mouthpiece on a trombone. The mouthpiece should sit 1.000 inch into the receiver.

I will have to pull the Herrick lead-pipe I have in one of my 6's and see how it compares to Earls original pipe! A task for another day!

[Bach5G]

My understanding is that Burt Herrick started the leadpipe thing and L Minick picked up on it. On the west coast.

Add me to the “leave it alone” camp. You may very well find you have neither a lead pipe nor an inner top tube at the end of the day. Been there, done that.

[Jnoxon]

hurt did a lot of LA horns for sure. He made 3 lead-pipes for .500 bore horns. I don't know about Minick :picking it up" not sure what you mean by that? I would guess about 50% or more of the horns that left Earls shop ended up at Herrick's to get a different pipe. I play the number 2. Thats the one Nash, Pederson, Welsch. and many other went after. I have one 6 that plays the best with its original pipe, and a different one really shines with the Herrick. Go figure!!

I firmly believe Don't Fix What Aint Broke!!

[hyperbolica]

...] by their former sales rep, Ben Griffin.

Hold it, I'm a little slow on the uptake, here. "Former" sales rep? What happened to Ben Griffin?

[JohnL]

Hold it, I'm a little slow on the uptake, here. "Former" sales rep? What happened to Ben Griffin?

I seem to recall hearing a while back that Ben was touring with a show.

[2bobone]

I have a "thing" about press fit leadpipes ever since I had a Conn 70H with one fitted to it. I called it my "Mancini" horn because I used it every time Henry came to guest conduct our orchestra. I found a characteristic about it that I
really didn't like. It could "slip" in its seat as you played so that if you had an embouchure that "torqued" around the mouthpiece as opposed to an embouchure that sat perfectly flat on the rim it could have a detrimental effect. It was the first time I realized that I had that nasty habit, which I must admit could be used to advantage in certain circumstances. Anyway ---- after that experience I made sure that any leadpipes on horns that I owned were either screw-in or clamp style so that it was no longer an issue.

[Jnoxon]

I have never had a problem like that? I guess Im thankful I did not have that!

[DougHulme]

Manfred Scmelzer over in Germany makes very faithful copies by hand and they are good, so he may always be worth a shout for parts or a new copy. He knows a lot about Williams and the horns too and he speaks perfect English