Thoughts and idea on how to improve my legato.

[imsevimse]

Hello!

My vacation started yesterday and I will be free for four weeks from my job as a programmer. I'm going to use it essentially for two things. 1)Take care of my house and my plot and 2) for practice.

Since Friday, I have practiced every day at least four hours and hopefully I will continue to do this. A huge difference to what I usually do because I do not even practice every day during the rest of the year.

Now I need some pressure, and I'm writing this because if that.

For this summer my ambition is to improve my legato. I thought I could post what I practice and how it goes, and to post audio files to get criticism. I have noticed that this brought me forward earlier so I hope for the same result now.

So this thread is to improve my legato

What I currently focus on to achieve this is to play Swedish folk songs. They are often in minor and lend themself very well to be performed without accompaniment. I recently discovered they are great to practice my legato.

I choose one and play it without the sheet music in all keys, both with and without vibrato. At some point during the day I also record and inspect how I'm doing.

My discovery up to now is that I have to improve the smoothness so that legato between notes in different overtones, that is, by stepwise motion upward as the slide moves outwards must sound more similar to those that are in the same harmonic series when the slide moves inwards.

I visualize this as a picture where the change of overtone, when pulling the slide outwards is like lifting the tone over a threshold to a higher floor. To do it smoothly, it becomes easier if I lie fairly close to the threshold before crossing so that I only lift a little bit just enough so the tone comes up and over the threshold. In the opposite direction when I go stepwise down, it becomes smoother if I do not let the tone fall down after the threshold as I step down and the slide moves inwards and the stream breaks the harmonic series.

One consequence will be that I'm very close to the next tone I'm going to and coming from, thus avoiding the break that would otherwise be heard when the overtone barrier is crossed. To think like this seems to help me.

I hope you understand this. It is not easy to explain this in Swedish so I'm very interested if you understand what I'm talking about and if you have thoughts about this.

Thoughts?

/Tom

[hyperbolica]

I'd do a combination of things. Exercises and playing your songs, in a more natural setting.

The typical Remington lip slurs are a great place to start, but the master of this stuff was really Marstellar. Work through his book. Lip slurs are of course changing partials with use of air and chops only, no tongue. The goal is to make them smooth and accurate, with increasing speed.

Some others here were students of John Swallow. I think there were other teachers who promoted this style as well. You can approach it like a game. The rules are fairly simple. Learn alternate positions, including trigger alternates. Don't "gliss" (move the slide in the same direction as the change in pitch) more than 1 position at a time. So to go from G to Bb, you'd go from 4th to 5th, getting the natural slur rather than from 4th to 1st, which is just a sloppy mess. Practice avoiding 1st position for a month. Practice air attacks, without tongue. Swallow ran me through all 3 Rochut books doing this, as well as the LaFosse Bach cello suites, Teleman Flute fantasies, Top Tones for Trumpet, and I forget all the books and other stuff we went through. I found the Marstellar stuff later, and the exercises in that book fit Swallows style nicely.

This is the kind of thing that you could spend all summer or more on. The exercises are great, but really applying it to your folk songs or the cello suites will solidify your grasp on this kind of thing. With all of this, start slow, and build speed until its musical, and maybe go a little beyond what you think is strictly musical, just to know you've got it under your belt.

[Kbiggs]

Jay Friedman has some great ideas and approaches to legato which I’ve found helpful. He talks about air, slide movement, and concepts. Here’s a few of his posts:

http://jayfriedman.net/articles/legato_ ... _arms_race
http://jayfriedman.net/articles/legato_ ... recordings
http://jayfriedman.net/articles/shifting_gears
http://jayfriedman.net/articles/slurs_and_sound

I know there’s lots of others. Just a place to start. BTW, I like your use of memorized folksongs to play. Because you know the tune, you can turn up the dial of the listening and analysis part of your brain a little bit while you play.

[Doug Elliott]

Practice with no tongue, trying to make it totally smooth as if singing with no articulation. Then when you add the tongue back in, keep that smoothness with constant airflow and sound, no bumps either up or down, slide moving in, out, or still. You have to really listen closely and keep everything in total control.

[blast]

I like simple ideas..... when my students are having legato issues, I tell them to think about keeping playing a note right up to the new note... keep blowing.... you then find slide movement will need to be quick and articulation will become quick and neat.
Just remember to keep playing a note right up to the next..... everything else follows on.... simple.

Chris

[afugate]

I like simple ideas..... when my students are having legato issues, I tell them to think about keeping playing a note right up to the new note... keep blowing.... you then find slide movement will need to be quick and articulation will become quick and neat.
Just remember to keep playing a note right up to the next..... everything else follows on.... simple.

Chris

Thanks, Chris. This is excellent. I will try to remember to use this with my students.

--Andy in OKC

[imsevimse]

I made a recording to document how I'm doing with this. The recording can be found at this new thread http://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6419

/Tom

[imsevimse]

I'd do a combination of things. Exercises and playing your songs, in a more natural setting.

The typical Remington lip slurs are a great place to start, but the master of this stuff was really Marstellar. Work through his book. Lip slurs are of course changing partials with use of air and chops only, no tongue. The goal is to make them smooth and accurate, with increasing speed.

Some others here were students of John Swallow. I think there were other teachers who promoted this style as well. You can approach it like a game. The rules are fairly simple. Learn alternate positions, including trigger alternates. Don't "gliss" (move the slide in the same direction as the change in pitch) more than 1 position at a time. So to go from G to Bb, you'd go from 4th to 5th, getting the natural slur rather than from 4th to 1st, which is just a sloppy mess. Practice avoiding 1st position for a month. Practice air attacks, without tongue. Swallow ran me through all 3 Rochut books doing this, as well as the LaFosse Bach cello suites, Teleman Flute fantasies, Top Tones for Trumpet, and I forget all the books and other stuff we went through. I found the Marstellar stuff later, and the exercises in that book fit Swallows style nicely.

This is the kind of thing that you could spend all summer or more on. The exercises are great, but really applying it to your folk songs or the cello suites will solidify your grasp on this kind of thing. With all of this, start slow, and build speed until its musical, and maybe go a little beyond what you think is strictly musical, just to know you've got it under your belt.

Thanks for the advice on literature. I think I have the book by Marstellar. I also have the Schlossberg and Lafosse books as well as others. I have much music with legatos to play.

Interesting idea to avoid 1st position for a month and to solve as much of the legato issues as possible with help of alternate positions I do use much alternate positions to help legatos. I try to find the closest path between position. I often use D, F and G on fourth, Bb and C in third and C# ,F# and E on fifth.

The problem with all literature is it only provides one method to fit all needs. If you want to get deeper into specific details it takes a teacher. A teacher to give feedback. Someone who listens and gives advice that is aimed at your particular needs. So how to get the the details?

/Tom

[imsevimse]

Jay Friedman has some great ideas and approaches to legato which I’ve found helpful. He talks about air, slide movement, and concepts. Here’s a few of his posts:

http://jayfriedman.net/articles/legato_ ... _arms_race
http://jayfriedman.net/articles/legato_ ... recordings
http://jayfriedman.net/articles/shifting_gears
http://jayfriedman.net/articles/slurs_and_sound

I know there’s lots of others. Just a place to start. BTW, I like your use of memorized folksongs to play. Because you know the tune, you can turn up the dial of the listening and analysis part of your brain a little bit while you play.

Thank you! That was well worth reading. I do understand what he is talking about in all these articles which tells me I'm on track with this. I had not read that when I wrote what I picture as "thresholds"
that you need to lay close to as to make a smooth step between slide positions when you play against the grain. Mr Freeman describe the same thing as "road bumps" and says his embouchure prepares the new note as he moves the slide from first to fourth position (F-G).

Im very excited about have found this reading.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

Practice with no tongue, trying to make it totally smooth as if singing with no articulation. Then when you add the tongue back in, keep that smoothness with constant airflow and sound, no bumps either up or down, slide moving in, out, or still. You have to really listen closely and keep everything in total control.

Thanks for the advice on how to practice. I try my best to make it sound like that. I feel I have a better airflow. I'm getting closer.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

I like simple ideas..... when my students are having legato issues, I tell them to think about keeping playing a note right up to the new note... keep blowing.... you then find slide movement will need to be quick and articulation will become quick and neat.
Just remember to keep playing a note right up to the next..... everything else follows on.... simple.

Chris

Yes it sounds easy. It probably is when you've learnt it. Jay Freeman talked about the trombone pedagogy for legato playing that he described as a "no legato" approach. The slide instead moves super fast to make every note right next to each other but as he described it - not smooth and beautiful enough. I think this is what happened with my playing. I have tried to move the slide to fast between positions and to avoid a bump I have decreased the airflow between notes. Some at the academy in the 80-ies learned how to play legato like that but I never did. I'm trying this other approach now instead. I shall not be to scared of smears as I learn.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

I just returned from one week at a summer music camp where I played a lot. The brass instructor was the retired solo trumpet player from one of the best symphony orchestra in Sweden. We played 10 piece brass ensamble music and much symphony orchestra repertoire as it was a camp with all of the instruments of the symphony orchestra. We also played new original music and new original arrangements by members at the camp. A nice brass quintet with a lots of legato in the trombone part was particularly interesting. When looking back I have heard some good things said about my sound thru the years, but this week when I played that brass quintet I was told for the first time ever I had a good legato That was a new experience. It must be I'm getting closer to the perfect legato.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

There have been five weeks since I completely changed the way of playing legato. Last week at the music camp I could not practice as much because playing started at 9:am every day and there wasn't much spare time. It made me fall back into old habits occasionally but I managed to return to the new style of playing each time. There are lots of rests in symphonic repertoire. It gives you time to think and concentrate on making good entrances many times. Difficult primavista stuff on the other hand makes you slip into old habits fast. Now after a week home with work and legato practice without tonge I'm back on track again.

I wanted to share some insights I've got from the change. The insights from playing for hours with no tongue and only now and then add a legato tonge and a slight vibrato.

I concentrate a lot on what Walter Barret and Jay Freeman wrote concerning legato and I also have the words from the last meeting I had with a generous friend and teacher echoing in my head.

Besides use of a "constant flow" and to "allow smears as I learn" and to "prepare the next note with the embouschure when playing against the grain" I mixed everything with my own insights which is 1) to play as efficient as possible. To get most sound out of the smallest amount of air. I check how I'm doing this with the method: "to play the longest phrases possible as soft as I can for as long as I can" and I do this by 2) forcing the air through the smallest opening possible. An opening that still gives a good sound. I make sure I push that small amount of air with a constant flow through the smallest hole possible, thinking of the hole between my lips as a long tube, like a thin and straight straw. Trying to form the longest straw possible with my lips. I also try to adjust the mouth cavity to make the widest sound possible for each note, still with as less air possible.

This thinking and playing has led to some changes. Changes in my embouchure that now are starting to effect all my playing. One change is I now feel my bottom lip comes up a bit. It has become more active in forming the hole in my emboschure. The straw thinking has given me a better control from all sides and there are two tightened areas in my chin that I have not noticed before. I can now see two paralel vertical lines about 3 cm below each mouth-corner. In the chin. The lines are not very deep but there is some new activity going on I have not seen before. I think this is from muscle-work that comes from the slight raise of the bottom lip to form the "straw" feeling, especially this is nessesary when plaing against the grain. That feeling helps alot. Playing feels great now!

Some negatives though. I have not used my tongue much which means I have some work to do in that area. I do think to isolate on a single task needs to be done sometimes. The other things will return.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

I'm still working on my legato, first with no tongue and then when I add the legato tongue I slightly curl the tip of the tongue and I place it somewhere between the teeth and the middle of the roof.

Ive also noticed the aparture must be working effectively to make sound of ALL the air I use and to help concentrate and focus the airstream through that small hole between the lips or else the power is lost and then the legato is lost. Air power/flow can be lost in cheeks or in other places of the lips. I focus my airstream to go only into that "long" hole. A little different on low register as I feel I need a little more space in mouth to make a better sound. I allow my cheeks to be a little more relaxed there.

I have practiced my legato solely for about six/seven weeks now and after all those hours I've noticed everything comes in place better when I imagine the hole between my lips as a long straw, a tiny hole but long hole and always open, the smallest longest opening. I remember a picture with a monkey somewhere in a trumpet book - could it be "Maggio"? - and that picture with those "ape-lips" is exactly how I picture my lips. It means nothing to those who don't know what I'm talking about but maybe someone remember that picture with those accentuated lips and can help me out?

When I play I have the feeling my mouthpiece is hooked on those "ape-lips". Not much pressure from horn on lips, rather a forward motion in the lips against and into mouthpiece to make that straw. I also feel i "raise" the buttom lip. This ape-picture together with a constant flow and that curled tip and air focus on that tiny long straw has improved my playing now, not only legato. We'll see how far this goes.

I could not find the Luis Maggio ape embouchure picture. This picture is good enough to show the forward feeling.
https://goo.gl/images/HhKcUK
/Tom

[imsevimse]

Jay Friedman's latest article on legato from July 15. It is spot on what I need and it's very convenient he wrote this when I was only half way in this thread, it must be a lucky shot. I'm greatful!

http://www.jayfriedman.net/articles/liv ... the_cracks

/Tom