King 3b hard to play?

[Jmac]

Question for you people who have a lot more experience than me. I own a beautiful king 3b from the early 60’s. Slide is perfect and it sounds wonderful. I don’t end up playing it much because my other horns seem easier to play. Other horns being a 2b and 48h. I’m not saying it’s incredibly difficult to play,just that it seems to take maybe more concentration? I realize it’s a bigger bore but it’s not a huge difference. Do you think it’s a matter of getting used to the horn? I’ve put it up for sale a number of times because I don’t play it much but I can’t seem to sell it because it’s a cool horn. Is a .508 bore just gonna be a little harder to play? Thanks in advance for any advice. Joe

[Redthunder]

I used to play a late 60's 3B. A lot of them are really prized horns, but some of them do have some weird quirks about them, especially given that they are at this point over 50 years old, and could have excess tension/torque/rotted leadpipes or any other issues. My particular 3B was wonderful, except the 8th partial B-flat was so horribly wonky I literally could NEVER hit it cleanly, no matter how much I tried to adjust, and this was a killer because of all of the lead bone playing I did in college. 3rd position B-flat was of no help either. C and D and above were nice and clear, which made it that much more frustrating, so I sold it, got a 6H that I've been playing ever since.

Have you ever spent a period of time JUST playing that horn, like a month or more? That would probably give you a good idea of whether or not the horn is weird or if you just need more time to get used to it.

[Jmac]

Have you ever spent a period of time JUST playing that horn, like a month or more? That would probably give you a good idea of whether or not the horn is weird or if you just need more time to get used to it.

No I haven’t. Now that I think of it, I use to own a late 70’s 3b and I didn’t play that one much either. Forgot to add that.

[hyperbolica]

I've been kind of looking for a good 508 horn. I've had a Selmer Bolero w/F that I probably should have kept and a Yamaha 691. The Bolero played very close to my larger 79h, and the Yamaha sound seemed kind of one dimensional, if you know what I mean. I've never really fallen in love with any 3B I've ever played, more of a Conn guy, I guess. But there isn't a Conn equivalent. It's been a while since I played a Bach 16m, with the smaller bell. Have you considered that?

[Jmac]

I've been kind of looking for a good 508 horn. I've had a Selmer Bolero w/F that I probably should have kept and a Yamaha 691. The Bolero played very close to my larger 79h, and the Yamaha sound seemed kind of one dimensional, if you know what I mean. I've never really fallen in love with any 3B I've ever played, more of a Conn guy, I guess. But there isn't a Conn equivalent. It's been a while since I played a Bach 16m, with the smaller bell. Have you considered that?

Funny you ask that about the Bach 16m. I have a friend that grew up playing a 3b and now swears by the 16m. I should try his again.

[Matt K]

I had a sterling silver 3BGSX for quite some time that I thought had a killer slide too. It turns out it was so killer that it was losing compression! So good action doesn't always mean that the slide itself is in shape. I took it to a tech to do some slide work before i sold it and I ended up holding onto it for a few years after that incident. Might be worth checking into.

[Jmac]

Didn’t think of that.

[afugate]

I had a sterling silver 3BGSX for quite some time that I thought had a killer slide too. It turns out it was so killer that it was losing compression! So good action doesn't always mean that the slide itself is in shape. I took it to a tech to do some slide work before i sold it and I ended up holding onto it for a few years after that incident. Might be worth checking into.

I wonder what they did to adjust the compression?

--Andy in OKC

[Neo Bri]

I had a sterling silver 3BGSX for quite some time that I thought had a killer slide too. It turns out it was so killer that it was losing compression! So good action doesn't always mean that the slide itself is in shape. I took it to a tech to do some slide work before i sold it and I ended up holding onto it for a few years after that incident. Might be worth checking into.

I wonder what they did to adjust the compression?

--Andy in OKC

Can they use an expander on the slide ends? Sounds kinda crazy.

[greenbean]

Replace the water key cork?...

[Matt K]

I think it was generally misaligned and had some dings. It doesn't take very much to lose compression in the slides and when it is leaky the slide tends to move faster thus when people say they have a slide that works really quickly but doesn't play well that's my first thought.

[Jmac]

Had it checked out. No leaks. They said the slide was perfect. I just need more talent! Guess I just need more air that on my 2b.

[Kbiggs]

Yes, spend more time on the horn.

Now, I’m not suggesting an equipment fix to address this problem, but... Have you tried a different mouthpiece on this horn? The 3B is larger than the 2B or the 48H, so it might play a little more comfortably with a slightly larger rim and/or cup depth to the mouthpiece. Perhaps you could borrow something larger from a friend to test it out.

Opinion: Removing the player from the situation, I believe there’s an acceptable range of mouthpiece dimensions (rim, cup depth and shape, throat size, backbore size/shape) that work optimally with different trombone bore sizes. Outside that range leads to less-than-optimal results.I wouldn’t play a 5G mpc on a 2B, just as I wouldn’t play a 12C on a Bach 42. However—isn’t there always a caveat?—Doug Elliott and other makers offer screw rim mpcs so you can use the same rim with different size cups and backbores. But, his mouthpieces are designed to be able to do that, within reason.

[Matt K]

Shank does make a big difference. Doug has a 2 and a 3 shank for small bores. The 2 is means for horns 485 and 500 and the 3 is for 508 horns. I can tell a difference at least. The AR mouthpieces also have a boatload of shanks that are meant to interface with different small bores. When you use a stock, single piece mouthpiece you tend to get one that categorically works well for one or is a compromise for some. At least that has been my experience, as was also the case with Kbiggs. In other words, you can get a 12C sized mouthpiece that will work with SOME degree of reasonableness with the 42 if the backbore, shank, etc. is adjusted to work with it.

An extreme example is that Doug made me an LB D cup and I use my D3 shank in it and it plays great on my small bores. I use it to practice with so I don't have to lug around a bass when I do flexibilities... especially high range stuff because I like to be able to do that on my LB114 rim. At any rate, it plays very well in tune. I even use it occasionally on a gig for stuff that is mostly in the staff anyway. I need to pick up a D5 shank because my 525/547 slide would be killer for certain things with it.

At any rate, yes if the 2B works with mouthpiece X that doesn't necessarily mean the 3B will work with the same one!

[dukesboneman]

Or........ You could just have a dog of a horn (maybe made on a Monday or friday) and changing mouthpieces and leadpipes won`t help it at all.I had a Bach intermediate model in High School that had NO high Ab anywhere on the horn. There was nothing a repair Tech or my teacher at the time (Don Knaub - and he`s no slouch) could do with the horn.

[Driswood]

I played a 3B in 1974-75 when I was in the 323rd Army Band at Ft Sam Houston TX. The high Bb was awful!!! High G and A were both in short second. Bb was too flat to use, played it in 3rd all the time. Fortunately that partial was in tune.

I had an early 80's 3B I owned for about a year. Dog horn. Tried several mouthpieces, servicing, just couldn't make it work for me. Wasn't anything close to the 16M and 6H I played before it. Sold it last year.

I've played two 2B's, and they were spectacular! Especially the one loaned to me by a friend. 1961 2B slide, 1941 Silvertone bell. Best horn I've ever played.

Jerry Walker

[Jmac]

I had a friend stop by to check out the horn. He advised I not ever sell it. He thought it was a great horn and I maybe needed to play it and get used to it.

[Neo Bri]

I had a friend stop by to check out the horn. He advised I not ever sell it. He thought it was a great horn and I maybe needed to play it and get used to it.

Well, that's really an eye-opener!

[Neo Bri]

Incidentally - I've played a lot of 3Bs that were just great small-bore horns. I've also played a few dogs. I've found the Silversonics particularly troublesome. Just stiff and hard to play, for some reason.

[MoominDave]

The King 3B was informally known as the "easyphone" once upon a time due to the relative ease of playing available on it. It might be worth getting hold of someone else's 3B to compare back to back with this one.

[boomski]

My 3b is from 1955, and I absolutely love it. Easiest horn I've ever played, and I play it every chance I get. I don't have any issues with partials/tuning.

[mwpfoot]

My old 3b Silversonic has frustrating partials and notes up top, as some others have described. I'll revisit it someday. I think it's a good candidate to have the leadpipe pulled and a threaded adapter installed. Then if I don't have a pipe that "fixes" it (for me) ... well, I did what I could. Maybe I'll discover the magic mouthpiece someday.

Several years ago I bought a Yamaha 891z to play instead. It's a great .508 horn right out of the box.

[BGuttman]

This reminds me of an anecdote.

The Air Force Reserve Band on Cape Cod, MA (now defunct, unfortunately) had a King 3B Silversonic in its stable. Every new player signed it out and returned it after a month or two. There was something wrong with that horn and nobody could figure it out. I guess it was not a unique problem.

[djkennedy]

THE 3B can be very stubborn !!!!!!!!--i used to put them into categories
like JJ --softer edge round --flare appearance -could have dents but they were smooth types
kai --flares seemed crisper --flashier edge -more brassy
---------i have a 1960 --GOLD BRASS FLARE did it solid for awhile --then got a pretty massive 58
the 58 was stubborn as a mule --i decided to let it teach me how to play it--which took awhile -so after being on the 58 and hitting good --- picked up the 60 --COULD NOT PLAY IT --
////////////some [esp hn white ]] blow very tight -much back blow --so a pipe pull and h8 kanstull open them ---however the tight blow type will do some very cool noodle flipping at a slightly more full volume --ripple --waves --some of the old pros love the long loop earlies while in miami i have placed many of the preferred era for salsa --YOU CANNOT JUDGE 3B BY HAVING ONE HORN ---actually a player from chicago hit the studio and there were at least 12 here for him to blow out his chops on !!!!!!!--sometimes it is picking a slide //then a bell--then its the cream puff time capsules --BESIDES THE HORNS --THE CASES are special too

[djkennedy]

My 3b is from 1955, and I absolutely love it. Easiest horn I've ever played, and I play it every chance I get. I don't have any issues with partials/tuning.

////////LONG LOOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! rodney lancaster //and another cat from GMO
hard to find the 54//55 s

[boomski]

////////LONG LOOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! rodney lancaster //and another cat from GMO
hard to find the 54//55 s

Yeah! rich orange lacquer still present on the bell, but wearing off the slide/neckpipe. It's actually the only 3b I've played, maybe someday I'll have the chance to play some others.