Bach 50K3. You read that right!

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:28 pm

Yes, a Bach with 2 K valves in a row. They do exist!

And the horn is pretty good.

The owner of it played a 42K for years at a high level. And playing this, I can see why someone would be happy with a K valve on their instrument.

What I really love is the valve wraps, which you don't see much on trombones today in this form!

Check out the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs9oCyxj0Mg

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:55 pm

Interesting.

Re: your comments in the video - Denis got a new horn and I'm pretty sure he's not playing the 42K anymore, but I could be wrong.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:56 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Jan 05, 2018, 09:55PMInteresting.

Re: your comments in the video - Denis got a new horn and I'm pretty sure he's not playing the 42K anymore, but I could be wrong.

Yup! He's playing a 42AFG now, straight from the factory.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:02 pm

I didnt realise they were unusual. The university I did my undergrad at owned a bach 50 with 2 K valves that students could use. It wasnt awesome.....

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:05 pm

I would assume any school owned instrument is not going to be awesome!

If you get a chance, you should blow this one. Some things about it are better than your horn, I think...

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:37 pm

A mate of mine had one, from new I think, in the early 2000's. An ex-student of mine owns it now. I remember it being a decent horn, if not astounding. I suspect, given my preference these days for basses with as much neck/head clearance as possible, that I wouldn't be able to get a 50K3 into a satisfactory position on my face.

I have a Bach 42 which started life as a 42K. It was a good horn then, but it got even better once I put an Ed Thayer valve on it.

If you can hang with the ergonomics and the heaviness of the throw, they can be a fine valve. Assuming, like all Bach's, you find a decent one.

Andrew

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:35 am

Someone brought one in for me to try when they first came out. I thought it was dreadful. It was very heavy indeed and I noticed that the bore of the tube entering the valve was much smaller than the valve wrap tube. I was not surprised when they did not become popular.

Chris Stearn

ttf_nhtrombone · Post by **ttf_nhtrombone** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:06 am

I've had a 42K since entering college in 1996. I think it plays great but I do so few things that require a horn like a 42 that it doesn't see the light of day very frequently.

ttf_Bach42T · Post by **ttf_Bach42T** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:54 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 05, 2018, 07:28PMYes, a Bach with 2 K valves in a row. They do exist!

And the horn is pretty good.

The owner of it played a 42K for years at a high level. And playing this, I can see why someone would be happy with a K valve on their instrument.

What I really love is the valve wraps, which you don't see much on trombones today in this form!

Check out the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs9oCyxj0Mg

Aidan, I like this and your videos recently on all the valve sections. You are really knocking them out lately. Keep up the good work. I used to have a Bach 42KD (detachable bell) with lightweight slide on special order back in '97, until I got wind that Bach started ordering Thayer valves from Ed Thayer and I changed my request from a 42K to the 42T, although the 42T did not offer the detachable bell option. Of course I still have the 42T.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:51 pm

Wow

that one must weigh a TON...

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:01 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 05, 2018, 10:05PMI would assume any school owned instrument is not going to be awesome!

If you get a chance, you should blow this one. Some things about it are better than your horn, I think...

Why would you assume that any school instrument wouldn't be awesome? High school up the street from me owns 2 Yamaha 830 bass trombones. Very nice instruments.

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:00 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 08, 2018, 05:01AMWhy would you assume that any school instrument wouldn't be awesome? High school up the street from me owns 2 Yamaha 830 bass trombones. Very nice instruments.

I believe the assumption is the care taken in maintaining the instruments, not the quality of the instrument itself.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:38 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 08, 2018, 06:00AMI believe the assumption is the care taken in maintaining the instruments, not the quality of the instrument itself.

Maybe.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:55 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 08, 2018, 06:00AMI believe the assumption is the care taken in maintaining the instruments, not the quality of the instrument itself.

100% that's what is meant and also what is my experience. The HS I went to had an Elkhart 62H that was beat within an inch of its life. They refurbished it and then less than a year later it was being used for marching band and similarly go trashed again. School instruments are notoriously ill maintained. Its a pleasant surprise when otherwise unfortunately. That poor Elkhart

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:48 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 08, 2018, 06:38AMMaybe.

I'm not sure how you could interpret it any other way!

There's schools out there with Edwards and Shires.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:05 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 08, 2018, 09:48AMI'm not sure how you could interpret it any other way!

There's schools out there with Edwards and Shires.
Because its possible for an instrument to be in average to poor condition and still have a great sound.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:23 am

Yes... I have a complete beater 50B that is pretty great.

But an instrument in poor condition (including my 50B) is a lot harder to play, and therefore sound good. Especially for someone with a lot less time on the horn.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:34 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 08, 2018, 10:23AMYes... I have a complete beater 50B that is pretty great.

But an instrument in poor condition (including my 50B) is a lot harder to play, and therefore sound good. Especially for someone with a lot less time on the horn.

I have a beater Holton 169.... holes patched in the bell, dents everywhere including the slide.... one of the easiest playing, best sounding instruments I have ever owned... one of my students, after trying it, asked that I never bring it in to a lesson again.... they did not want to be reminded of it ever again !

Chris Stearn

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:38 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 08, 2018, 10:23AMYes... I have a complete beater 50B that is pretty great.

But an instrument in poor condition (including my 50B) is a lot harder to play, and therefore sound good. Especially for someone with a lot less time on the horn.

Yeh thanks for the advice. I didn't know any of that. You should think about doing some online lessons on YouTube as we could all learn a lot. That video you posted at the beginning of this thread is Dy-no-mite!!!!!!!!!!

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:39 am

Well, I'm glad we got to this point.

ttf_Quiros · Post by **ttf_Quiros** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:08 am

Fascinating to actually see one of these. I have a 42K, and the valve size and position doesn't bother me like I thought it would. However, I can't imagine being comfortable with a 2nd valve poking into my neck horizontally like that.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:53 am

Wow, there certainly are some douchebags in this thread.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:10 am

Quote from: Bach42BOS on Jan 08, 2018, 11:53AMWow, there certainly are some douchebags in this thread.

There are disagreements in this thread for sure... but you are the first person to insult various un-named forum members.

Not within the TOU and not helpful.

People looking at buying K valve instruments and people looking at buying used and abused trombones have an interesting divergence of opinions here. They, as usual, can choose who to believe.

Chris Stearn

Chief Admin hat on.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:59 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 08, 2018, 10:23AMYes... I have a complete beater 50B that is pretty great.

But an instrument in poor condition (including my 50B) is a lot harder to play, and therefore sound good. Especially for someone with a lot less time on the horn.

Bob, could you fill in the (possibly) missing words from this post, I'm not understanding it too well.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:07 am

I can (I had to read the comment a few times, too):

"Yes... I have a complete beater 50B that is pretty great sounding, despite being in poor condition.

But an instrument in poor condition (including my 50B) is a lot harder to play, and therefore it is more difficult to make it sound good. "

I don't understand why [ ] was hating on the video. Putting out ideas and work on YouTube is an industrious endeavour. Posting on this thread, myself included, is not industrious.

ttf_bassboneman · Post by **ttf_bassboneman** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:33 am

Quote from: blast on Jan 08, 2018, 10:34AMI have a beater Holton 169.... holes patched in the bell, dents everywhere including the slide.... one of the easiest playing, best sounding instruments I have ever owned... one of my students, after trying it, asked that I never bring it in to a lesson again.... they did not want to be reminded of it ever again !

Chris Stearn
Mine is quite ugly, slide is not A+ - BUT! It does play nicely

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:45 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jan 09, 2018, 05:07AMI can (I had to read the comment a few times, too):

"Yes... I have a complete beater 50B that is pretty great sounding, despite being in poor condition.

But an instrument in poor condition (including my 50B) is a lot harder to play, and therefore it is more difficult to make it sound good. "

I don't understand why [ ] was hating on the video. Putting out ideas and work on YouTube is an industrious endeavour. Posting on this thread, myself included, is not industrious.

That's what I thought, just checking. I wondered why BB hadn't corrected it, especially as some members use English as a second language, which might have explained the "flurry" a few posts ago.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:59 am

Quote from: Bach42BOS on Jan 08, 2018, 11:53AMWow, there certainly are some douchebags in this thread.

Pot calling the kettle black.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:02 am

Quote from: blast on Jan 09, 2018, 04:10AMThere are disagreements in this thread for sure... but you are the first person to insult various un-named forum members.

Not within the TOU and not helpful.

Chris Stearn

Chief Admin hat on.
Really? Im the first person to insult a member in this thread? Maybe you should read the comments in here again. Not being rude, just calling it as it is.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:05 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 09, 2018, 05:59AMPot calling the kettle black.
Boo-hoo Im so hurt.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:42 am

Quote from: Bach42BOS on Jan 09, 2018, 06:02AMReally? Im the first person to insult a member in this thread? Maybe you should read the comments in here again. Not being rude, just calling it as it is.

I admit my comments were rude. But calling me a douchebag will only satisfy your need to be a douchebag. Others who posted here offered some good advice and don't deserve to be called names. Good seasoned advice based on good seasoned experience. That's what we should all be listening to.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:26 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 09, 2018, 07:42AMI admit my comments were rude.Thank you for admitting that. Prior to your comment we were having a nice conversation. Let's try to get back to that.

In the 90s I saw a few pros in the DC area using 42Ks, maybe 3 or 4. These were usually players in one of the service bands who were also top freelancers. However I never saw anyone using a bass with K valves. At the very least I give Bach credit for trying something new at the time.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:43 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 09, 2018, 07:42AMI admit my comments were rude. But calling me a douchebag will only satisfy your need to be a douchebag. Others who posted here offered some good advice and don't deserve to be called names. Good seasoned advice based on good seasoned experience. That's what we should all be listening to.
Hey man, its all good. I know I got out of hand as well and yes, it was a douchebag moment for me too.

No hard feelings here and yes, lets get back to the topic at hand.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:13 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Jan 09, 2018, 05:45AMThat's what I thought, just checking. I wondered why BB hadn't corrected it, especially as some members use English as a second language, which might have explained the "flurry" a few posts ago.

Oops! I typed that on my phone. Harrison got the gist of it. Basically just saying that a horn can sound great, but may not be easy to play. In any case, that's quite a strange tangent from my original topic here.

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 09, 2018, 07:42AMGood seasoned advice based on good seasoned experience. That's what we should all be listening to.

If you have a problem with anything I say in my videos, please let me know directly.

Quote from: CSO on Jan 09, 2018, 08:26AM
In the 90s I saw a few pros in the DC area using 42Ks, maybe 3 or 4. These were usually players in one of the service bands who were also top freelancers. However I never saw anyone using a bass with K valves. At the very least I give Bach credit for trying something new at the time.

The 42K seems to have had much more staying power than the 50K3, that's for sure.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:36 am

Oi, didn't realize this was you/r channel, Burgerbob! Cool stuff, subscriber earned

ttf_Stan · Post by **ttf_Stan** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:10 am

@Bob,

Just curious of you've weighed it. Your vid talks a lot about the weight. Got any actual numbers compared to your Thayer horn? I've always thought that 2 K valves would be SERIOUSLY heavy.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:49 am

Quote from: Stan on Jan 09, 2018, 11:10AM@Bob,

Just curious of you've weighed it. Your vid talks a lot about the weight. Got any actual numbers compared to your Thayer horn? I've always thought that 2 K valves would be SERIOUSLY heavy.

I will see if my wife's kitchen scales can deal with trombones.

As far as I can tell, it's similar or heavier than my Thayer section, but we'll see!

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:03 pm

K valve section: 4.23 pounds. (1.90kg or so)

Thayer valve section: 4.26 pounds. (1.933kg or so)

50B2 valve section: 3.9 pounds. (1.769kg or so)

50B valve section: 2.875 pounds. (1.304kg or so)

Pretty close! The Thayer section is definitely more familiar, so the ergonomics are going to be a little better for me. The K section felt a little less comfortable.

Also interesting is that the 2nd valve and D slide on the 50B2 adds almost exactly a pound to the 50B!

ttf_bassboneman · Post by **ttf_bassboneman** » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:11 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 09, 2018, 01:03PMK valve section: 4.23 pounds. (1.90kg or so)

Thayer valve section: 4.26 pounds. (1.933kg or so)

50B2 valve section: 3.9 pounds. (1.769kg or so)

50B valve section: 2.875 pounds. (1.304kg or so)

Pretty close! The Thayer section is definitely more familiar, so the ergonomics are going to be a little better for me. The K section felt a little less comfortable.

Also interesting is that the 2nd valve and D slide on the 50B2 adds almost exactly a pound to the 50B!
Aidan,

With regard to ergonomics and weight vs. edwards...
Is it the way the triggers function (placement/comfort) that is the detraction?
I have grown so accustomed to the weight of my 454 that when I go to a lighter horn my slide technique suffers due to the lack of counterweight behind me.
Not sure if that makes sense or not...

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:18 am

Yes, that is definitely part of it. I also love the way my bass sits back!

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:18 am

Yes, that is definitely part of it. I also love the way my bass sits back!