Edwards 502i Anybody Have Any Real Life Experiences

[ttf_GetzenBassPlayer]

After playing on Edwards CRE valve bass for about a year, l am very interested in the 502i. The CRE I have setup as a very nice commercial horn. The Harmonic Pillar was really helpful in getting that horn to where I needed it to be. It does however still leaves me in search of a backup to my main horn or new main horn. I did notice that not a lot players on the horn currently. Just seeing if I can get player impressions of the horn. It looks like it is a 9 month wait.

[ttf_mr.deacon]

Excellent horns.  I've tried both the 502 and 502i, and I thoroughly enjoyed playing on them. Honestly they play how you would expect a Edwards setup to play with those specs. This might be a good or bad thing depending on what you want.

Only thing I didn't like about the horn was the slide... I'm not a fan of one piece braces on the outer slide... some people like them, I'm not a fan. There is also a lot of gold brass on the yellow bell version of the horn (the gold brass bell version of the horn is all yellow brass on the outers and valve tubing) which you may or may not be a fan of.

I was considering buying a gold brass bell 502 when they first came out but at the time there was a 6+ month wait time and they wanted a down payment to get added to the wait list. Amazing horns but I didn't think it was a horn I couldn't live without. I would never buy a new one if the wait list is 9 months. Now a used one... I could be tempted buy a used one.

If I was to buy a new horn with similar specs I'd check out M&W. I played a Bach 50B style setup at ITF this year and I thought it was the best horn at the show. Hey and the wait time isn't 9 months with them!

[ttf_GetzenBassPlayer]

9 months is a long time I pretty sure tthat was the wait when I ordered my Greenhoe valves. I am very intrigued with the idea of being able to fine tune the playing characteristics without having to change bells, slides and other parts. I want a horn that has consistent sound through All dynamic ranges, which my current horn does well. If I could dial the 502i in to be similar, I would be very happy.

[ttf_mr.deacon]

You should also ask Edwards if they'd sell you a 502 style harmonic pillar brace by it's self. I know Noah recently had a couple of non Edwards horns (one was a Shires and the other a Kanstul I think?) on his website that had the 502 style brace modded onto the horn.

If you could possibly mod a 502 brace to your CRE valves that would let you keep your current setup and let you have the additional harmonic pillars without having to break the bank or wait 9 months.

[ttf_Burgerbob]

The 502 feels pretty different from any B454 that I've played. More nuanced of a blow and sound. I liked the one at ITF, but I liked the M&W horns more.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Harmonic pillars have gotta be the most innovative thing to hit the trombone since .... removable leadpipes??

I think I saw a video of Mr. Pagano playing the dependent version with a honking ol' copper pillar in the center hole. It's a bit aggressive doing that on tenor...

The alessi style brace/counterweight is amazing. They are selling that as a mod part???

[ttf_mr.deacon]

I'm not sure if they are or not... but I'm 100% positive I saw a modded single valve Shires bass trombone and a modded Kanstul bass trombone with a 502 style harmonic pillar on them on Noah's website.

[ttf_Matt K]

They weren't as of a few months ago. I inquired about them and they responded that they would sell the pillars (for around $80) but not the pillars.   At that price, if I'm going to have a tech fabricate something similar, I bet Ic ould have them fabricate a small copper rod for a heck of a lot less than $80. If there are 6 rods then that would be like $13 a piece.  In that case, I'd probably do what Christian Griego did in one of the first iterations of the project and go down to the hardware store and pick up some off the shelf bolts to try first.

[ttf_GetzenBassPlayer]

Quote from: Burgerbob on Dec 20, 2017, 02:51PMThe 502 feels pretty different from any B454 that I've played. More nuanced of a blow and sound. I liked the one at ITF, but I liked the M&W horns more.
What about the M& did you like better? I am sure the build is immaculate on those horns.

[ttf_mr.deacon]

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Dec 20, 2017, 07:46PMWhat about the M&W did you like better? I am sure the build is immaculate on those horns.
Build quality for sure is absolutely amazing and their horns are a more traditional Bach or Conn styles while the 502i is well.. more Edwardsy.

[ttf_trombonemetal]

Quote from: mr.deacon on Dec 20, 2017, 05:08PMI'm not sure if they are or not... but I'm 100% positive I saw a modded single valve Shires bass trombone and a modded Kanstul bass trombone with a 502 style harmonic pillar on them on Noah's website.

I think it was the Bartok bass that was up there. Not sure if it still is.

I play a 502i. I love it. It’s a Ferrari. It’s so resonant and easy to find the center of the tone. EASILY the best high range on a bass I’ve ever encountered. The rest of the horn is excellent too. I love the one piece handslide brace. Makes it feel like the whole slide’s weight is in your hand rather than gliding on the stockings. The rotax valves are great. I’m a tenor trombonist primarily FWIW, but this horn is not geared towards tenor players. Don’t think of it as a “small” or “light” bass.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Quote from: Matt K on Dec 20, 2017, 06:39PMThey weren't as of a few months ago. I inquired about them and they responded that they would sell the pillars (for around $80) but not the pillars.   At that price, if I'm going to have a tech fabricate something similar, I bet Ic ould have them fabricate a small copper rod for a heck of a lot less than $80. If there are 6 rods then that would be like $13 a piece.  In that case, I'd probably do what Christian Griego did in one of the first iterations of the project and go down to the hardware store and pick up some off the shelf bolts to try first.

You get 8 pillars. Two of them are the long adjustable ones. The different thread lengths (1, 2, 3 pillars) feel very different. I'm sure you could recreate them, but I don't think the lengths he decided on were arbitrary.

[ttf_Burgerbob]

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Dec 20, 2017, 07:46PMWhat about the M& did you like better? I am sure the build is immaculate on those horns.

More interesting sound. Also, the inline Rotax on the B502i weren't stuffy, per se, but not as open and easy as I prefer. The M&W valves played very well in comparison, for me.

I actually liked the B502D at the show a lot more than the indy model.

[ttf_Matt K]

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 20, 2017, 09:18PMYou get 8 pillars. Two of them are the long adjustable ones. The different thread lengths (1, 2, 3 pillars) feel very different. I'm sure you could recreate them, but I don't think the lengths he decided on were arbitrary.

That's true but if I'm having something custom made then they would be arbitrary since 'm sure I wouldn't get an exact replica of one of the pillars.  Or for that matter, if there is something to the pillars, they might not work on whatever horn I'd put them on in the same way so custom might be a better and cheaper option.  Maybe. I haven't put a great deal of thought into it!  The horns I've tried I haven't been able to tell that they were on or not but they weren't under ideal conditions.  Although I suppose I did play a friend's Alessi a few years back for a rehearsal but I don't recall my thoughts on it.  It was a much different setup than I was on at the time so even if I did have an observation, I don't know if it would be relevant.

[ttf_wgwbassbone]

Is the 502i the Markey model?

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Dec 21, 2017, 04:47AMIs the 502i the Markey model?

Yes.

[ttf_wgwbassbone]

Quote from: Dan Hine on Dec 21, 2017, 06:38AMYes.

Thanks Dan.
Last month I went to Dillon Music to check out some horns. I played various Rath set ups, a used Courtois, an Edwards 502i, and the M&W that was there. I also tried both dependent and independent versions of what was on the show room floor. For ME the Edwards was one of the worst bass trombones I've ever played. The rotten valves played like different valves compared to the ones on the Raths. The sound was just white noise. Definitely not my thing. Once again, for me, the M&W blew everything out of the water and it wasn't even set up the way I usually like my instruments(inline all yellow brass and Ive been playing dependent/red brass instruments for years). So I haven't "lived with the Edwards" for awhile but from what I experienced I never would.

[ttf_Gabe Langfur]

I didn't like the first ones I played at all. I've tried some more recently that played very well (including the one owned by trombonemetal above).

Bill, the one you played was not likely to have been all yellow brass. The bell is yellow, but the 502i has gold brass slide tubes (yellow crook), neckpipe, main tuning slide, and valve tubing. For my tastes that's an odd design choice - or at least not at all what I'm used to. On the best examples of the model it seems to work though.

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Dec 21, 2017, 07:55AMI didn't like the first ones I played at all. I've tried some more recently that played very well (including the one owned by trombonemetal above).

Bill, the one you played was not likely to have been all yellow brass. The bell is yellow, but the 502i has gold brass slide tubes (yellow crook), neckpipe, main tuning slide, and valve tubing. For my tastes that's an odd design choice - or at least not at all what I'm used to. On the best examples of the model it seems to work though.

I believe he is saying the M&W was all yellow brass.

[ttf_wgwbassbone]

Quote from: Dan Hine on Dec 21, 2017, 08:02AMI believe he is saying the M&W was all yellow brass.

Yes I was.
Well Gabe the Edwards was a new instrument. But I’ve never gotten along with Edwards instruments.

[ttf_Gabe Langfur]

Duh, yeah...

Brain cracked with the nuts.

[ttf_GetzenBassPlayer]

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Dec 21, 2017, 07:38AMThanks Dan.
Last month I went to Dillon Music to check out some horns. I played various Rath set ups, a used Courtois, an Edwards 502i, and the M&W that was there. I also tried both dependent and independent versions of what was on the show room floor. For ME the Edwards was one of the worst bass trombones I've ever played. The rotten valves played like different valves compared to the ones on the Raths. The sound was just white noise. Definitely not my thing. Once again, for me, the M&W blew everything out of the water and it wasn't even set up the way I usually like my instruments(inline all yellow brass and Ive been playing dependent/red brass instruments for years). So I haven't "lived with the Edwards" for awhile but from what I experienced I never would.
I found another player who, like you, felt initially that the horn didn’t sound good. However, after an adjustment session at Edwards, it felt and sounded like a different horn. It doesn’t sound like Edwards horns agree with you in general, so a Harmonic Bridge adjustment might not matter, but your initial response to the horn is definitely similar.

[ttf_wgwbassbone]

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Dec 21, 2017, 03:24PMI found another player who, like you, felt initially that the horn didn’t sound good. However, after an adjustment session at Edwards, it felt and sounded like a different horn. It doesn’t sound like Edwards horns agree with you in general, so a Harmonic Bridge adjustment might not matter, but your initial response to the horn is definitely similar.

Very interesting. Setting the sound aside the blow of the instrument was odd as well. Just couldn't get comfortable.

[ttf_SethMatrix]

I just played the 502i at the Midwest clinic yesterday. It's a great instrument. Very focused centered sound, and easy to play. This was on the 502i with dual bore slide and the biggest leadpipe. It still wasn't as open as my M&W with a single bore slide and a moderate leadpipe.

I thought the open horn on the Edwards was easier to play than my horn, but the valves are definitely a tighter blow than the M&W valves and I could hear that in the sound. It sounded uneven in and out of the valves for me, but that could be fixed by practice on that horn.

Both horns had great sounds, but I prefer the sound on my M&W because to me it has more color. The Edwards did have what people would describe as the "Edwards sound" which is nice but not what I'm going for.

Really try an M&W set up personally for you and the sound will be more vibrant than any other instrument.

[ttf_GetzenBassPlayer]

I will have to give one a try. I have played on a Greenhoe Custom with tis and felt that the horn played well, but felt my Greenhoe/ Edwards played better.  I am not necessarily looking for the most open horn. I am looking for horn that plays similar to the horns I already have. I have heard several players say that the 502i is an easy horn to play and sound good on. That is a big plus. I also really like Edwards horns. I sound very good on them.

[ttf_mr.deacon]

For what it's worth it seems most of the cats in this thread who are saying they aren't the biggest fans of the 502i are all people who don't totally dig Edwards. Myself included.

I will say that if you dig Edwards you'll love the 502i.  Just remember the 502i is a specialized tool while the regular CRE setup you have is customizable.

If I was to buy a brand new Edwards setup I'd probably get a CRE setup like you have just so I could tune it exactly how I wanted. I would hate to spend $$$$'s of dollars only to find out I thought the bell was too heavy or I hated how the slide was setup or something like that.

I would try one in person before you buy it just to make sure you want to buy a specialized horn like that.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

The Harmonic Brace sort of undoes the need for a modular horn though. It is customizable.

[ttf_mr.deacon]

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 22, 2017, 08:09PMThe Harmonic Brace sort of undoes the need for a modular horn though. It is customizable.
I mean sort of... but the harmonic brace can't change the "tone" of a horn like switching from a red brass bell to a yellow bell can or change the overall blow like a tuning slide swap can. The bells only come in one weight... ect.

I see the harmonic brace similar to swapping a leadpipe, it can make or break a horn but it doesn't undo the need for a modular horn.

If I happen to like a 502 or a Alessi horn there is no reason to not get one but there are things that the stock 502 and Alessi series horns can't provide that a modular setup can provide. Until they start making custom order 502's or Alessi horns the modular horn is here to stay.

[ttf_GetzenBassPlayer]

Quote from: mr.deacon on Dec 22, 2017, 08:22PMI mean sort of... but the harmonic brace can't change the "tone" of a horn like switching from a red brass bell to a yellow bell can or change the overall blow like a tuning slide swap can. The bells only come in one weight... ect.

I see the harmonic brace similar to swapping a leadpipe, it can make or break a horn but it doesn't undo the need for a modular horn.

If I happen to like a 502 or a Alessi horn there is no reason to not get one but there are things that the stock 502 and Alessi series horns can't provide that a modular setup can provide. Until they start making custom order 502's or Alessi horns the modular horn is here to stay.

Most players looking at a nearly $6,000.00 horn know wether yellow or red bells work for them. If you want the highest level of customization, you are right, this horn isn’t for you. I have bells sitting around collecting dust that I never use. I haven’t changed out the bell on any of my horns since I figured out that I like lightweight bells 10 plus years ago. Same with leadpipes; once I have the one that gives me the blow I want, I leave it in. I could solder all my bells in place because I never change them. I found an old post about on the forum Where Christian Griego chimed in. He said the goal of the 502i was not replace, but another option for players out there.

[ttf_trombonemetal]

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Dec 22, 2017, 10:24PMMost players looking at a nearly $6,000.00 horn know wether yellow or red bells work for them. If you want the highest level of customization, you are right, this horn isn’t for you. I have bells sitting around collecting dust that I never use. I haven’t changed out the bell on any of my horns since I figured out that I like lightweight bells 10 plus years ago. Same with leadpipes; once I have the one that gives me the blow I want, I leave it in. I could solder all my bells in place because I never change them. I found an old post about on the forum Where Christian Griego chimed in. He said the goal of the 502i was not replace, but another option for players out there.

I bought the 502i specifically because it is not modular.

I wanted a horn I knew I wouldn’t be seconding guessing the specs on, especially since it isn’t my primary horn. I wanted something I knew was great that I could learn without saying “if only I had a different bell, slide crook, etc.”

My tenor is a modular Edwards that I’ve spent a ton of time and money tinkering with and you know what? The most main stream options (all the Alessi parts with an Alessi mouthpiece and pipe) works the best. All those parts were designed to work together by one of the finest trombonists ever, who also happens to be my primary model in terms of sound and style. Why wouldn’t I play basically the same gear (I do play a smaller rim mouthpiece)?

I approached buying a nice bass with the same philosophy. I love Markey’s playing. He’s another idol of mine. I listen to him, especially his tenor album, and say “sounding like that is my life's work.” If I’m still developing as a bass trombonist, as I am, why not use a horn that was designed by my favorite player to produce the results I’m trying to emulate?

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Quote from: mr.deacon on Dec 22, 2017, 08:22PMI mean sort of... but the harmonic brace can't change the "tone" of a horn like switching from a red brass bell to a yellow bell can or change the overall blow like a tuning slide swap can. The bells only come in one weight... ect.

I see the harmonic brace similar to swapping a leadpipe, it can make or break a horn but it doesn't undo the need for a modular horn.

If I happen to like a 502 or a Alessi horn there is no reason to not get one but there are things that the stock 502 and Alessi series horns can't provide that a modular setup can provide. Until they start making custom order 502's or Alessi horns the modular horn is here to stay.

I don't really think the bell options or slide options actually change the tone very much. Especially to the listener. I do think that you really can change the blow of a horn with a tuning slide or bell swap. Changing the blow of a horn will change the way you approach the way you play it, which can affect the tone to the listener. I think that's exactly what the harmonic brace does. It doesn't change the tone ... but it changes the blow (pretty significantly -- you can ruin the horn with those pillars!) and that in turn will change the way you play it, and ... the tone. I find it to be a far more elegant solution to a non-problem (ie, having the modular horn or a harmonic brace really makes the average Joe want to solve "problems" with equipment, rather than practicing things through) than the modular horn is. At least I don't have to buy a bunch of bells and leadpipes and swap those out when I want to play a different feeling trombone.

In any case, I think the brace has as much of an effect on the trombone as a moderate gear change would. Probably not as significant as swapping out a super thin bell with the heaviest gauge bell, but then again, who is actually doing that on a regular basis? But as far as swapping out a leadpipe, or two different bells made with the same gauge but different metals, or a tuning slide? Yeah, the harmonic brace is extremely similar to that. I've found about four different setups that I like, one of which I use about 95% of the time. Beyond that, I don't really need to change anything up to get the range of tones and timbres I want to get out of the non-modular horn.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Quote from: mr.deacon on Dec 22, 2017, 08:22PMI mean sort of... but the harmonic brace can't change the "tone" of a horn like switching from a red brass bell to a yellow bell can or change the overall blow like a tuning slide swap can. The bells only come in one weight... ect.

I see the harmonic brace similar to swapping a leadpipe, it can make or break a horn but it doesn't undo the need for a modular horn.

If I happen to like a 502 or a Alessi horn there is no reason to not get one but there are things that the stock 502 and Alessi series horns can't provide that a modular setup can provide. Until they start making custom order 502's or Alessi horns the modular horn is here to stay.

I don't really think the bell options or slide options actually change the tone very much. Especially to the listener. I do think that you really can change the blow of a horn with a tuning slide or bell swap. Changing the blow of a horn will change the way you approach the way you play it, which can affect the tone to the listener. I think that's exactly what the harmonic brace does. It doesn't change the tone ... but it changes the blow (pretty significantly -- you can ruin the horn with those pillars!) and that in turn will change the way you play it, and ... the tone. I find it to be a far more elegant solution to a non-problem (ie, having the modular horn or a harmonic brace really makes the average Joe want to solve "problems" with equipment, rather than practicing things through) than the modular horn is. At least I don't have to buy a bunch of bells and leadpipes and swap those out when I want to play a different feeling trombone.

In any case, I think the brace has as much of an effect on the trombone as a moderate gear change would. Probably not as significant as swapping out a super thin bell with the heaviest gauge bell, but then again, who is actually doing that on a regular basis? But as far as swapping out a leadpipe, or two different bells made with the same gauge but different metals, or a tuning slide? Yeah, the harmonic brace is extremely similar to that. I've found about four different setups that I like, one of which I use about 95% of the time. Beyond that, I don't really need to change anything up to get the range of tones and timbres I want to get out of the non-modular horn.