My latest recording. Can you notice any improvement?

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:47 pm

Hi!

Five months ago I prepared my self for a music summer-camp and recorded The Vocalise Op. 34, No. 14 by Serge Rachmaninoff (1873-1943).

I got a few comments on my playing especially the vibrato and legato. I have continued to work on this piece and thought it was time for an update. I tried not to over-think the vibrato this time and just let it happen, the same with the breaths. I have worked on the legato too, but I know it could still be smoother.

I would like comments from everyone. It means a lot too me and give me inspiration to work harder, please...

So here it goes, but this time I used my new Antoine Courtois Paris 420BO "Challenger I"
Tenor trombone from 2006 with 8.5" bell and bore size .547 that I bought from one of the other trombone players at the music-camp this summer

Mouthpiece is a Karl Hammond 12 ML. Recording is made on a Korg D888 portable studio and one Neuman U87 Ai mic. Recording was made at a distance of 20-30 cm from the mic. The piano is on a CD. Mixed in Audacity and a tiny reverb was added to the trombone part make the instrument sound as if they were recorded in the same room. Recording date: 20171216.

Here is the recording: https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724/vocalise-op-34-no-14-by-serge-rachmaninoff-a-courtois-paris-420bo-tenor-trombone-from-2006

The old thread is here:
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,101026.msg1202503.html#msg1202503

From there you can also find the previous recording.

/Tom

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:40 pm

Hi Tom,

It sounded really, really good to my ears.

The only thing I would suggest - strictly from a fidelity point - is to tinker with running the solo track through a low-pass filter. It can take some of the little bit of airiness out that I hear at times; unless that is the sound you are striving for.

Inspiring!

...Geezer

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:55 pm

From time to time, it sounds as if the trombone is ahead of the piano, especially earlier in the recording. I understand this is probably difficult with a play-along track! Later on, the time seems great.

I like the sound. At a couple points, in the mid-low register and at higher dyanamics, it sounds to my ears as if the ML cup is a little shallow for you/this piece.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:31 am

Hi Tom, it sounded great in my ears! Maybe use a little more air or airflow in your legato? I think you have to work a little bit on your airflow. Sound is nice and warm and it all was pleasant to listen. Take my words with a spoon of salt because I'm not used to analyze playing on that level.

Leif

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:21 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Dec 16, 2017, 05:55PMFrom time to time, it sounds as if the trombone is ahead of the piano, especially earlier in the recording. I understand this is probably difficult with a play-along track! Later on, the time seems great.

I like the sound. At a couple points, in the mid-low register and at higher dyanamics, it sounds to my ears as if the ML cup is a little shallow for you/this piece.

Hi Aidan The 12 cups come in three sizes, M,ML and L. I think the 12ML is about the size of a Bach 5G. The M is too shallow for my taste on this piece. I have never recorded with the 12 L although I have one. I don't use it 1. because I think the higher register looses timbre, and 2. I get more tired. I guess it could be better in time. The sound will be deeper. One thing is behind the bell and the other is in front. It might be better even though from my position behind the bell the sound becomes too deep. I might try it anyway and see what you think if it fits the music better. I guess I have a sound in mind and that sound is what comes out of the bell in time anyway. It probably depends on whom you play with too, what ideal the others have that you play with since you pick up the best of the sounds you hear.

Leif, I know about the flow and legato. I work at this but as soon as I do not especially think of that I go back into old habits. I guess the way I play is the way I hear the music That is the problem. When I manage to play better legato then I loose the music and it becomes just notes. This is a problem. It takes time to relearn concepts. If I would take up lessons again then I could maybe be reminded by a teacher as soon as I'm loosing the air-flow and begin to play "bulging" legato as someone commented one of my early recordings.

Hi Geezer! Thank you for your support. I still think it is very difficult to make a good recording in my living room especially if the piano part has a lot of reverb. The trombone sounds best without any added effects but then the mix is strange. It is not possible to remove from the piano part so I tried to add a minimum of it to the trombone part. The recording feels more authentic but unfortunately the trombone sound is changed in a negative way, not as natural. I guess it could be better if I did the recording in a church or at least a large room then I could do without reverb. Filters to remove noise is beyond my knowledge in Audacity.

/Tom

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:19 am

I agree with Leif's comments. Listen to 4:30 to the end and use that as your model, it's beautiful. Earlier the legato could be smoother for my taste. Think through the phrases, where do they start, where do they end, how do they get from beginning to end. There are a couple of position choices I might do differently to help make it smoother.

It's definitely an improvement from the last one but needs to go farther in the same direction. More continuous air through the legato, start and end phrases more definitely, synchrionize tongue and slide better.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:03 am

Beautiful playing Tom! You do a fantastic job of playing together with MMO, often it does sound like it is live together.
Beatuiful sound and vibrato, it does sound French to my ears! Even the attacks. The almost legato works very good (even that sound French).
There is a little twa sometimes in attacks (sound French) like the blow is not really timed with the tongue. Sometimes. When it is timed it is very nice to listen to.

Good playing!

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:28 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 17, 2017, 06:19AMI agree with Leif's comments. Listen to 4:30 to the end and use that as your model, it's beautiful. Earlier the legato could be smoother for my taste. Think through the phrases, where do they start, where do they end, how do they get from beginning to end. There are a couple of position choices I might do differently to help make it smoother.

It's definitely an improvement from the last one but needs to go farther in the same direction. More continuous air through the legato, start and end phrases more definitely, synchrionize tongue and slide better.

Thank's for the input. Will do my very best to smoothen the legato. Maybe play more help positions and take advantage of slotting techniques could help that instead of tongue. Unfortunately I feel I get a little short on air so I probably both have to play softer - to make the air last longer - and play "smarter" - to use it more effectively for to be able to streach and connect the piece more. Some of the leaking air in my tone Geezer noticed could also be used for sound instead of "fuzz" in the tone. All this together might help to connect the piece better, to make an efortless stream of beautiful sound out of those phrases. Im beginning to get a picture how to acheave this. This is not an easy piece, that's for sure.

/Tom

ttf_willful.liam · Post by **ttf_willful.liam** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:14 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Dec 16, 2017, 04:47PM
I would like comments from everyone. It means a lot too me and give me inspiration to work harder, please...

Wow! Really nice playing man. I like your soft mellow sound at lower volumes that provide the calm interludes. Also, I like your sweet focused sound at higher volumes and pitch. You definitely got more adventurous with the second recording. Actually, I think you could take even more risks and go even further with your new ideas.

For example, at 2:54 or thereabouts. You could come in with a stronger and more abrupt crescendo and a shade darker -- and maintain that level through the end of the phase at 3:15. Then do everything else one level more intense and ominous.

I used to play Chopin in my dorms late at night. Sometimes my friends would come by and listen after going out drinking. One said he liked it because it reminded him of the girl that he was talking to for a while at a party. But, she left him abruptly for some other guy. And then he had to walk back to the dorm alone, and he was cold, angry and wet. To be honest, he probably didn't need to be reminded because the pain was still fresh =).

I mean you added some really nice dynamics and emotion, and could probably go even further. Maybe it wouldn't be concert appropriate, but if you have any moody drunk friends you can definitely try it on them. I love this kind of music. It is filled with fits of rage descending into a sedated calm. Thanks for sharing.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:31 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Dec 17, 2017, 09:03AMBeautiful playing Tom! You do a fantastic job of playing together with MMO, often it does sound like it is live together.
Beatuiful sound and vibrato, it does sound French to my ears! Even the attacks. The almost legato works very good (even that sound French).
There is a little twa sometimes in attacks (sound French) like the blow is not really timed with the tongue. Sometimes. When it is timed it is very nice to listen to.

Good playing!

Thank you, Sven! I guess the work I have done has helped in some sense then? I do hear I do a lot of "twaa" and you are right that change of tone - that is lips/air, hand and tongue is not perfectly coordinated. I guess putting my recording out here for criticism has opened my ears to this. I can now hear the difference when I sometimes have all in place - everything at the right time and fully coordinated. I'm beginning to see a change in the way I want this piece to come out of the horn now. One thing is the vibrato that I now "feel" more than "think". It comes to me more naturally as I am doing it now. The flow with coordination hand/lips/air/tongue is the next thing to style, so I'll be able to tie the phrases together better. A better smoother legato from Santa. We'll see next year...

Thank you Will for all the nice words. I'm happy if something was pleasant and to your liking. As to your message. Yes, it is always easier to play music to drunk people. Drunk people are often more susceptible (if not too drunk). I have played for cheering audiences. They would not cheer as much without drinks. Alcohol helps people to relax and could enhance emotions. Both negative and positive emotions of course. A relaxed audience with one glass of wine in the blood hoping for a good time is probably more easy to please than an unvilling audience with just stress and asperin in their mind. I would love to be as good as to please a sober audience with this piece

/Tom

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:12 pm

Quote from: watermailonman on Dec 17, 2017, 02:31PM...
A better smoother legato from Santa.
It's spelled S-I-N-A-T-R-A

Listen to him, not Santa

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:24 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 17, 2017, 03:12PMIt's spelled S-I-N-A-T-R-A

Listen to him, not Santa

Lol

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:48 pm

Quote from: watermailonman on Dec 17, 2017, 03:21AMHi Aidan The 12 cups come in three sizes, M,ML and L. I think the 12ML is about the size of a Bach 5G. The M is too shallow for my taste on this piece. I have never recorded with the 12 L although I have one. I don't use it 1. because I think the higher register looses timbre, and 2. I get more tired. I guess it could be better in time. The sound will be deeper. One thing is behind the bell and the other is in front. It might be better even though from my position behind the bell the sound becomes too deep. I might try it anyway and see what you think if it fits the music better. I guess I have a sound in mind and that sound is what comes out of the bell in time anyway. It probably depends on whom you play with too, what ideal the others have that you play with since you pick up the best of the sounds you hear.

/Tom

Tom, I hear you! I own a 12L and 12XL, and have had a 12ML in the past. I wonder where that went...

I agree about the 12L. It seems just a little deep for me on tenor as well. Something about the design doesn't lend itself to trombone. But I also feel like the ML cup is a little shallow, especially coupled with that large throat. The MXL cup is pretty popular for that reason.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:26 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Dec 17, 2017, 09:48PMTom, I hear you! I own a 12L and 12XL, and have had a 12ML in the past. I wonder where that went...

I agree about the 12L. It seems just a little deep for me on tenor as well. Something about the design doesn't lend itself to trombone. But I also feel like the ML cup is a little shallow, especially coupled with that large throat. The MXL cup is pretty popular for that reason.

I can't find a 12MXL mouthpiece at the Hammond site. It does mention a 12XL for euphonium but that one seems to be larger than a 12L. Is 12MXL a special order or was it a typo?

/Tom

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:36 pm

Quote from: watermailonman on Dec 20, 2017, 02:26PMI can't find a 12MXL mouthpiece at the Hammond site. It does mention a 12XL for euphonium but that one seems to be larger than a 12L. Is 12MXL a special order or was it a typo?

/Tom

Special order, sized in between ML and L cups. The XL is deeper than L.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:45 pm

Hi!

I have done another update to incorporate the ideas I got; To play a deeper mouthpiece. Use better airflow. Use alternate positions to smoothen legato. Think through phrases from start to end. Coordinate slide/tongue/lips better.

I have changed a few things:
- I play my K.Hammond 12L mouthpiece
- I have stretched a few phrases
- I try to be more consistant with air-flow
- I try to move slide faster in between notes
- I use more alternate positions. Every where I can I use 6:th position on c when descending,

5:th position on c#

and 4:th position

and a# at 5:th

and I try to slot the legato.

https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724/vocalise-op-34-no-14-by-serge-rachmaninoff-1

What do you think? Any improvement?

/Tom

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:37 pm

I really like this sound!

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:35 am

I liked that legato much more! And the phrasing seems more natural and have more direction. I think on that level its not that much questions about right or wrong anymore. Its more a question about what you like, what taste you have in both legato, vibrato and style. I think this is really beautiful playing Tom!

Leif

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:18 am

Quote from: savio on Dec 23, 2017, 10:35AMI liked that legato much more! And the phrasing seems more natural and have more direction. I think on that level its not that much questions about right or wrong anymore. Its more a question about what you like, what taste you have in both legato, vibrato and style. I think this is really beautiful playing Tom!

Leif

Thank you very much Leif.

You are a very accomplished player and I admire your recordings a lot. You really sound a lot like your raw model Georg Roberts

I did my best to smoother things, play better legato and to streatch the places I had air left. There are a few more phrases that needs to be longer, but I can not inhale air fast and deep enough. I think "efficient use of the air I have got" is the best way to do it for that to succed in the near future. The air barely is enough to play as long as I would like. You would probably hear that if I tried.

As I said I admire your playing a lot and if you ever come to Stockholm, then bring your bass trombone and we can gather some good trombone players and play some trombone music and have a great time.

/Tom

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:25 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Dec 22, 2017, 06:37PMI really like this sound!

Thank you. The 12L is small shank so I'm using an adapter. I'm ordering the 12L large shank and the 12MXL. I must try...

/Tom

ttf_willful.liam · Post by **ttf_willful.liam** » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:50 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Dec 22, 2017, 05:45PMHi!

I have done another update to incorporate the ideas I got.

https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724/vocalise-op-34-no-14-by-serge-rachmaninoff-1

What do you think? Any improvement?

/Tom

That was the bestest, *hick*, tuba playing I yaveverheard.

*hick*

Play yitagen. Pleeze! Dude, juzt once more.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:23 pm

Thank's Will. Good to know the playing works as expected when in the right mood

Did it help the girl trouble too?

/Tom

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:23 pm

Thank's Will. Good to know the playing works as expected when in the right mood

Did it help the girl trouble too?

/Tom