Intermediate trombone

ttf_Jesse · Post by **ttf_Jesse** » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:08 am

How much should I spend on a new large bore intermediate b flat/f tenor trombone. I am beginning to grow out of my old king 606 and it's not in very good condition either.

ttf_MikeBMiller · Post by **ttf_MikeBMiller** » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:26 am

You can get a used pro horn such as a Bach 42 or Conn 88 for well under $2K. Start checking your local Craigslist. Just be sure to test the horn and make sure the slide is in good working order. Or try Dillons Music, which has a ton of used horns on their web site.

http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-1011-tenor-trombones.aspx

That said, if you really want a new horn, you are looking at between $1,500 and $2K for an "intermediate" trombone.

And I will save the other forum members the trouble of inserting the following comments:

"Call DJ."

"Ask your teacher."

ttf_Dukesboneman · Post by **ttf_Dukesboneman** » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:26 am

I don`t agree with the whole Intermediate Horn market.
Why not look for a good condition Pro horn and spend the same or less

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:30 am

Quote from: MikeBMiller on Sep 01, 2017, 06:26AM
And I will save the other forum members the trouble of inserting the following comments:

"Call DJ."

"Ask your teacher."

Just that one guy.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:12 pm

I agree with the idea of looking for a good used pro horn. Much better bang for your money than an intermediate horn, and if you keep it in the condition you bought it, if you need to upgrade later you can get better resale in many cases as much as you paid for it.

ttf_EWadie99 · Post by **ttf_EWadie99** » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:25 pm

Like others have said, I would recommend getting a nice used Conn 88H or Bach 42B they can come in a good price and can come less than $2K. Good luck in your search!

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:09 pm

I should point out that there are some other brands that were considered "Pro" but have fallen out of favor and are now available at good prices.

The King 4B or 5B (with F-attachment) is excellent. Also consider the 6B, 7B, and 8B Basses.
Benge 175 (Medium Bore) and 190 (Large bore) -- and 290 Bass
Holton TR-150, 158, and 159 (large bore). And the 180 and 181 Basses.
Reynolds Contempora
Olds Opera

And the older 600 series Yamaha trombones, particularly 646, 648, 682, and 684.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:20 pm

Quote from: Jesse on Sep 01, 2017, 06:08AMHow much should I spend on a new large bore intermediate b flat/f tenor trombone. I am beginning to grow out of my old king 606 and it's not in very good condition either.

I see you are studying with a pro player. Please get guidance from them. But $1000 to $2000 will get you a whole bunch of great used pro horns. Lot of good deals in the Classified. Not to mention the several horns I have listed there.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:19 am

the yamaha 548 and getzen 700 series are good !!!!! considered ''intermediate''
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open wrap ---gotta have it ?????????????????????????????
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as mentioned a used ''pro' model is often a good value
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getzen is lighter weight --i like the feel nice lever /linkage
just depends if teacher is more ''legit'' then think about a used bach okokok

Quote from: Jesse on Sep 01, 2017, 06:08AMHow much should I spend on a new large bore intermediate b flat/f tenor trombone. I am beginning to grow out of my old king 606 and it's not in very good condition either.

ttf_Jesse · Post by **ttf_Jesse** » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:01 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Sep 01, 2017, 06:09PMI should point out that there are some other brands that were considered "Pro" but have fallen out of favor and are now available at good prices.

The King 4B or 5B (with F-attachment) is excellent. Also consider the 6B, 7B, and 8B Basses.
Benge 175 (Medium Bore) and 190 (Large bore) -- and 290 Bass
Holton TR-150, 158, and 159 (large bore). And the 180 and 181 Basses.
Reynolds Contempora
Olds Opera

And the older 600 series Yamaha trombones, particularly 646, 648, 682, and 684.

Sure are these horns I could find at most music stores to try them out first?

ttf_Jesse · Post by **ttf_Jesse** » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:11 pm

For those who are telling me to ask my teacher, I already did and he recommended a large bore b and a f attachment. I'm just concerned that spending 2 grand on a used horn that there might be some issues.
And that's why I want a new horn. And obviously I can't afford a new pro horn.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:07 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Sep 01, 2017, 06:09PMI should point out that there are some other brands that were considered "Pro" but have fallen out of favor and are now available at good prices.

The King 4B or 5B (with F-attachment) is excellent. Also consider the 6B, 7B, and 8B Basses.
Benge 175 (Medium Bore) and 190 (Large bore) -- and 290 Bass
Holton TR-150, 158, and 159 (large bore). And the 180 and 181 Basses.
Reynolds Contempora
Olds Opera

And the older 600 series Yamaha trombones, particularly 646, 648, 682, and 684.
Quote from: Jesse on Sep 02, 2017, 12:01PMSure are these horns I could find at most music stores to try them out first?

You will find these at stores that specialize in brass like Dillon's or Horn Guys. Sometimes one may show up in a local music store but not often. Same goes for any pro horn. Most local music stores specialize in student horns because that's what sells.

If you are determined to buy new, consider Wessex Tubas. They are made in China and QC'd before being shipped to you to make sure it's not a junker. Not the case with a lot of Ebay sellers who actually are "drop ship" sellers and never actually get the instrument before it goes to you.

If you are in Virginia, Jim Laabs has a store with similar stock at similar prices and a guarantee.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:19 pm

You could get a new 88H for 2.5k

They are great!

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:50 pm

feel free to have teacher connsult me !!!!!! there are often issues w brand new instruments
you will get several opinions here on the forum --i have a trombone studio and players come also teachers w student //student w family //etc --the routine is to get warmed up and try many instruments
regardless of cost ///blow ///compare ///listen to teacher playing them //it is like tasting feeling touching looking thinking //some immediately no way --some yes some several yes
then narrowing down ///if you like pics --check out THE BRASS EXCHANGE --best pics for sure --
in newer horns the --new 88h are great yama 882 xenos --yummy
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the open wrap generally more cost --mouthpiece also needed
for an example of a few trombones in my studio --see short list in classifieds
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dont get in a hurry be picky !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ask teacher
teacher HELP

Quote from: Jesse on Sep 02, 2017, 12:11PMFor those who are telling me to ask my teacher, I already did and he recommended a large bore b and a f attachment. I'm just concerned that spending 2 grand on a used horn that there might be some issues.
And that's why I want a new horn. And obviously I can't afford a new pro horn.

ttf_Jesse · Post by **ttf_Jesse** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:00 am

It seems like there quit a few pro b flat/f horns under 3k. Do you think I could walk in to a store try out a few new pro horns that I can afford and then buy one that I'll be happy with? I had no clue the Conn 88h was so cheap!

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:14 am

Quote from: Jesse on Yesterday at 12:00 AMIt seems like there quit a few pro b flat/f horns under 3k. Do you think I could walk in to a store try out a few new pro horns that I can afford and then buy one that I'll be happy with? I had no clue the Conn 88h was so cheap!

The only new horn I'd buy at the moment of this particular market segment is a Shires Q series because they're compatible with the rest of the series and they're around the same price point as a new Bach 42/Conn 88 (sometimes less...). It would be hard for me to drop $2500 on a Conn 88 when I know that there are at any given point in time, probably a dozen used Conn 88s for sale for half that. Getzen and Yamaha maybe because they don't seem to come up for sale quite as often so you might not find a used one.

(Heck, for that matter, I have a great Shires coming up for sale at the Brassark for less than the price of a new Conn.)

QuoteI'm just concerned that spending 2 grand on a used horn that there might be some issues.
Don't assume that new = no issues nor that used = some issues. Especially Conn/Bach. I've seen horns from them that needed $500 in labor new to get them into what I'd consider to be 'new' condition. Others here have had similar experiences, others here have had better experiences. I tend to take the shortcut and go used and spend the rest on having a tech make them perfect. I'd much rather have a used Conn 88 that has had everything tuned up than a new Conn 88. If you got a good Conn from the start, the former is likely to be both cheaper and better than the new one. Again though, ymmv and other people have different experiences.

The nice thing about places like Dillon and Brassark are that they do have a return policy, so ifyou don't like something, ship it back and try again. Dillon is very good about accurately describing the horns in stock. They won't say something has a good slide if it doesn't. They also go through every imperfection of the horn such that if they say it has dings, it actually might be pretty minor.

On the other hand, BrassArk actually has a tech go over each horn. They don't fix cosmetic issues (lacquer wear) but they make sure that the horn is mechanically great before they even list it. " I will not sell an instrument I wouldn't take to a gig myself."

Finally, if you do want a large bore horn but you really want a new shiny one instead of a used one that might need some work, as others have mentioned, Wessex, JP Rath, and Mack Brass offer imported horns that have gone through a QC process. Wessex and JP Rath have their own designs (and are thusly priced a little higher than other imports). But all three of them make sure that they dont' send out a dud. They're a fraction of the price of a domestic (or Yamaha) instrument. They would be absolutely fine for your stage of development and in the future if you were able to make it out to a convention or something you would be able to try out other horns after you'e done a little development. The Mack Brass last I checked was around $700 and is more-or-less a clone of the Yamaha Xeno 800 series (with semi-closed wrap).

Whatever you do, don't just order one of the new 'band director approved' type of horns off eBay. Some of them work fine... others not so much. Good rule of thumb: If they a pair of white gloves are included with the instrument, stay away

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:39 pm

you might need those gloves !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:13 pm

Quote from: dj kennedy on Yesterday at 02:39 PMyou might need those gloves !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They don't do much for lousy slide action or sticky valves, though

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:22 pm

Quote from: Jesse on Yesterday at 12:00 AMIt seems like there quit a few pro b flat/f horns under 3k. Do you think I could walk in to a store try out a few new pro horns that I can afford and then buy one that I'll be happy with?
...

Well, it depends on the store, or course. And how far you are willing to walk. But since we don't know where you live, we can only guess...

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:32 pm

There was a brand new XO Brass 1236RL-OT on eBay a few minutes ago for $999.00, the only thing wrong with it was the case was damaged, but I bought it so it's no longer available. If it's as nice as the last one I played (standard rotor model), and I expect it to be, my Shires will be going up for sale.

Large .547 bore, Thayer type valve, 8.5" one piece hand hammered rose brass bell, .563 trough the 'F' section, open wrap, brass slide with nickle crook. 3 lead pipes, yada, yada. The newer design XO Brass cases are also the best anywhere.

There are others for as little as $1599 on eBay right now - display models - so may have the odd little blemish. These are fantastic playing instruments and the QC on them is amazing - they all play alike. You won't get the variance you can get with a Conn or Bach. Plays between a Conn 88H and a Bach 42B when they are at their best, with a big warm sound.

If your out trying horns, try the 1236RL. You won't be sorry you did.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:48 pm

Always better in general, at least financially, to buy used. An instrument typically looses about 40% of its value on initial purchase, and then keeps its value (or increases it, if it's a good vintage) as long as it stays in good shape.

There are some 100 year old instruments out there with no issues and some brand new horns with severe problems. Most of the best trombones I've tried or owned were not new.

I would never recommend to a student to buy an intermediate instrument, especially a new one - it's just a waste of money and time.

What I always recommend : find yourself a good 88H or 42, and have improvements made on it as you go. You'll have a great instrument with ever increasing value, easy to resell or trade should you choose to move on to another instrument.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:13 am

I would check dj kennedy, whatever you do bring your teacher when trying horns.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:13 am

I would check dj kennedy, whatever you do bring your teacher when trying horns.