Development of an Ergonomic Euphonium

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:48 am

Read my blog on how Wessex new ergonomic euphonium was developed -
http://www.wessex-tubas.com/development-of-an-ergonomic-euphonium/

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:18 am

Definitely interesting! I've always wondered why there weren't more front action compensated instruments. Definitely will need to try one of these out if I get the chance.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:13 pm

The write up didn't specifically say this was compensated, it sort of looks like it is but I can't tell for sure if there are two sets of tubing on not by the pictures. If it is a compensated horn I might want to give one a try.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:44 pm

I can just see the Brass Banders holding it with the left index finger on the 4th valve

I've often wondered about the rationale for the 3+1 valve setup. It makes more sense to have 4 valves in line to use the right pinkie for the 4th valve like on the uncompensated Yamaha 321 (and others).

Wnnder if this can move to the Tubas as well...

ttf_Tbonedude · Post by **ttf_Tbonedude** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:57 pm

Quote from: Radar on Apr 25, 2017, 12:13PMThe write up didn't specifically say this was compensated, it sort of looks like it is but I can't tell for sure if there are two sets of tubing on not by the pictures. If it is a compensated horn I might want to give one a try.

The Festivo is fully compensating. I'll definitely be interested in one if my euphonium doubling gets me to that point.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:01 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 25, 2017, 12:44PMI've often wondered about the rationale for the 3+1 valve setup.
The pinky is weaker and if you have trills between 3 and 4 or any other simultaneous movements it is kind of tricky, unless you are a spiderman

Personally, I always prefered the use the left hand index on a 4 piston piccolo trumpets whenever possible.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:51 pm

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 25, 2017, 01:01PMThe pinky is weaker and if you have trills between 3 and 4 or any other simultaneous movements it is kind of tricky, unless you are a spiderman

Personally, I always prefered the use the left hand index on a 4 piston piccolo trumpets whenever possible.

Just trying to work out which trills use 3&4

Also if a decent pianist can manage a trill using fingers 3&4 on either hand then I would think anybody else can.

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:01 pm

Didn't really think it through, I don't have lots of experience with euphoniums...However, on piccolo trumpet this could be low g/a, though this can be played by 1+3/3. 1+3/4 would give you actually a 1/4 tone thrill or something like it. I can easily imagine it in a modern/contemporary literature, though I cannot be sure it exists. Still I prefer not to use the pinky if I have another option. Even for more traditional fingerings like 1+2;1+3;1;2;1+2+3/4. Especially on an instrument such as an euphonium where the stroke is larger and the springs may be harder/stronger.

We surely can figure it out and train the independence of our fingers. I speak of preference, not necessity. When the instrument doesn't give an option a man do what he got to do.

ttf_Roscotrombone · Post by **ttf_Roscotrombone** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:19 pm

I've played the 4th on the pinky finger design....total hell & if I couldn't manage easily then how Yamaha thought kids could is beyond me! I was at a master class years ago given by Steven Mead - virtuoso euph player and he said that too.

There's a huge difference between training your pinky on a guitar/piano than a euph in my opinion...even pressing down 1st/4th together to get a low Eb for example is very tough...imagine if a tuba had them like that!

The design where the 4th valve is on the left index finger makes sense and isn't much more difficult to coordinate than when you first learn to move a slide & press the trigger down at the same time.

I know plenty of players especially tubas who will play a B 2nd/4th as it's more in tune than all 3 down.

Now one thing I've never understood is why they don't put trigger slides on trumpets like they do on cornets. Getting kids to push a 3rd valve slide out isn't easy

ttf_Driving Park · Post by **ttf_Driving Park** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:22 pm

Yeah, I much prefer 3+1. Even though when I'm fingering through things without an instrument I always default to the pinky "playing" the 4th valve, on an actual euph 3+1 is so much nicer. They do have 4v top action tubas...they're not enjoyable.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:45 pm

Quote from: Roscotrombone on Apr 25, 2017, 02:19PMNow one thing I've never understood is why they don't put trigger slides on trumpets like they do on cornets. Getting kids to push a 3rd valve slide out isn't easy

Saddle/Ring is often more precise than a trigger. Some prefer triggers, other (mostly classical) prefer to not have a spring attached to the slide and just a saddle/ring with a stop rod.

The other thing about no spring system is that the possible stroke is bigger, which is useful for those orchestral pieces where a trumpet need to play a low F, which would be most probably imposssible with triggers, unless you have a dumb slide which you can extend to some degree (in this case you will have to alter fingerings accordingly).

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:04 pm

BTW,

We all have our own preferences. When I was a student in Switzerland my teacher got a call for trumpeters from the Swiss Brass Week to perform a piece for 25 trumpets by Thomas Stevens.

When we got there on the day we rehearsed and performed that noisy thing, there were presentations going on by Steven Mead and an American tubist (I can't recall the name).

First came in Steven Mead saying that 3+1 was the best configuration, explained why than played the hell out of that 3+1 euphonium.
Than the tubist (the guy was unstoppable, he played all the day on his tuba, stopped just during Steven's presentation) who was playing on a front inline 4 piston tuba, said that this was best than Steven's euphonium configuration and played the hell out of that tuba.

ttf_DaveBb · Post by **ttf_DaveBb** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:28 pm

I've watched some high-end euphonium players and now that they have a trigger on the main tuning slide, they seem to use it to adjust the tuning on almost every note.

http://www.besson.com/en/instruments/euphoniums/prestige-be2051/

I guess they're too stubborn to admit defeat and play a trombone (or superbone) instead.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:41 pm

I am still waiting to see somebody building a slidephonium....

ttf_Molefsky · Post by **ttf_Molefsky** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:58 pm

I played this instrument at NABBA this year and was quite impressed. I'm looking forward to purchasing one at some point.

ttf_chipolah · Post by **ttf_chipolah** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:25 pm

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 25, 2017, 03:41PM

I am still waiting to see somebody building a slidephonium....
The way Trombone bores keep getting bigger and bigger, we will be there very soon !!!

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:51 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 25, 2017, 12:44PMI've often wondered about the rationale for the 3+1 valve setup. It makes more sense to have 4 valves in line to use the right pinkie for the 4th valve like on the uncompensated Yamaha 321 (and others).
The valves on a compensating horn are much longer than on a non compensating horn.

Having the 4 valves be inline on a compensating horn would make it nearly impossible to use the 4th valve in rapid passages. It's already hard enough to get the valve down on non comp tubas and euphs without having to worry about super long compensating valves!!

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:41 am

I played this horn at NAMM. I've also played the Willson horn with the same configuration, whatever model number that is. They were both great!

As for the valve setup, tubists (except those in Britain) use the same setup with larger, longer throw valves full time with no complaints.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:51 am

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 25, 2017, 03:41PM

I am still waiting to see somebody building a slidephonium....

Impossible! According to Robb Stewart at least:

QuoteThis came to mind recently when a request was made for me to make a slide euphonium and I also discuss the impossibility of making a slide tuba on my contrabass trombone.https://www.robbstewart.com/slide-flugelhorn/

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:08 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Apr 26, 2017, 11:51AMImpossible! According to Robb Stewart at least:
https://www.robbstewart.com/slide-flugelhorn/

Really?

https://www.facebook.com/emerson.brito.92/videos/656030827865169/?pnref=story

https://www.jstor.org/stable/842631?seq=1#fndtn-page_thumbnails_tab_contents

Well...the following is more of a joke:

https://www.facebook.com/slidetuba/photos/a.339464879429521.75128.339464786096197/339464886096187/?type=1&theater

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:10 pm

Quote from: Roscotrombone on Apr 25, 2017, 02:19PM...
There's a huge difference between training your pinky on a guitar/piano than a euph in my opinion...even pressing down 1st/4th together to get a low Eb for example is very tough...imagine if a tuba had them like that!
...
Just imagine? Ever seen any American Tubas? They are pretty dominantly 4 valve front (sometimes with a 5th rotary) one handed. Heck, that's why Besson developed those two models with Patrick Sheridan.

Valve front is quite dominant for tubists, not quite sure why it hasn't taken over in the Euphonium world yet.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_trombonemetal · Post by **ttf_trombonemetal** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:42 pm

I don't know about you, but my pointer finger is about 15xs stronger and faster than my pinky. I think that lots of people (myself included) with double jointed pinkies (more common than you'd think) find it extremely hard to play 4th valve with the pinky.

That being said, the over all ergonomics of this instrument look like a big improvement. I'd just use my left hand for the 4th valve.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:56 pm

Yes, really!

He goes in to say:

Quote It is impossible to retain the character of flugelhorn, euphonium or tuba with a long enough slide to play the full range chromatically.
On the other page:

QuoteHe wanted more than a bass trombone sound. I told him that it was impossible to have the large tapered body of even a small tuba in combination with the long cylindrical tubing needed for a trombone slide. I suggested that an interesting compromise might be to use a euphonium bell and body attached to a normal bass trombone slide.
In line with that, the article you references also indicates:

QuoteBoth in the patent and on the contest entry form, and also in the press reports of the contest, the instrument is described as a double-slide contrabass (or double B flat) trombone.
(Emphasis added)

It also states that:

Quote ... The bores of the inner slide legs being 12.9, 13.9, 15.1, and 16.1... George Case gives D.J. Blaikley and himself credit for remodelling the double-slide trombone and claims that it was a Boosey instrument used in the 1861 Crystal Palace Contest.
Meaning that it was both labelled as a trombone and the primary pitch adjuster was a 4 stepped, cylindrical tubes as you would find in a trombone.

Although Arnold Myers (the author of the article) declares it a slide tuba due to the "proportions of cylindrical to expanding tube", he does not expand on how having a four, conical slide tubes makes it not a trombone. But the semantics of that are perhaps better served in a separate thread as to not distract from the cool stuff coming out of Wessex.

When I played euphonium, I liked having the 4th valve be separate if for no other reason than it was easier for me to think of my right hand as my slide and my left hand as my F attachment. Even though my index finger was used instead of my thumb on the left hand, it made it much easier to conceive of fingerings that used it. Perhaps that was also aided by me being a southpaw.

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:29 pm

In general the pinky is pretty weak compared to the other fingers. It is shorter, thinner, etc. Playing guitar, it's never used to bend notes by itself, which is often done with the other three fingers.

Of course, it also depends on the throw and stiffness of the valves on the horn itself.

ttf_58mark · Post by **ttf_58mark** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:32 pm

I prefer 4 in a row, but my main instrument is tuba

ttf_MikeBMiller · Post by **ttf_MikeBMiller** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:52 pm

I have played a non compensating Willson 2704 with 4 valves in line for years. I always hate anything that involves 2 and 4 in a fast passage. I usually just use 123 and don't worry about the slight intonational challenge. Never tried a 3 + 1, but I think I would have a hard time adjusting my brain to it. This horn looks really nice.

ttf_marccromme · Post by **ttf_marccromme** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:01 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 25, 2017, 12:44PMI've often wondered about the rationale for the 3+1 valve setup. It makes more sense to have 4 valves in line to use the right pinkie for the 4th valve like on the uncompensated Yamaha 321 (and others).

Having played eb tubas with both a british 3+1 compensated top-action piston setup, a 5+0 uncompensated front action piston, and a 5+0 uncompensated rotary, I can sure you that each has it's own merits:

[li]the 4th valve is easiest used with the 3+1 setup, where you use the left hand. on a 5+0 setup, you have in the deep range to fight the odd changes 4 -> 23 , 4 -> 3 , 235 -> 45 and similar. The 3+1 setup gives easier agility in the deep range[/li][li]on a 4+0 compensated setup, you still have to work harder to get the same agility between finger 2,3, and 4, because the ring finger is hard to move independently, especially when middle or pinky have contrary motions[/li][li]for holding the tuba relaxed, I prefer 5+0 FA or rotary, cause I don't have to hold my arm so high[/li][li]I prefer rotors over pistons for faster action and less stroke[/li][li]I prefer pistons over rotors for smoother slurs (among those tubas I have tried)[/li][li]I prefer 5+0 uncompensated setup over 3+1 compensated for less resistance in lowest register[/li][li]all setups need some form of trigger to get all lowest multi-valve combinations fine in tune, unless you want to destroy sound quality by ecessive lipping[/li]

So, my preferred set-up would probably be a fully compensated 3+1 rotary Eb tuba .. where I can reach teh 4th with both hands, and with additional trigger on 4th valve

ttf_Heinrich Voellmer · Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:14 am

If I may interject, being a native Euphonium player I may offer a different perspective.

I have quite extensively played both 3+1 setups like my Adams which is my current main horn and a 4 inline with my old Yammy 321. They really do both have their own merits, but overall I would prefer a 4 inline for about 90% of my playing.

First of all the merits of a 3+1 is that you obviously do have better control over your left pointer finger than your right pinky, and it is arguable that it does have different implications about how the horn will respond. Something that I don't know is whether or not in this new euphonium or all inline euphoniums, is if the fourth valve is a larger bore. I do know that in most 3+1 designs the fourth valve is a good deal larger, primarily to help with giving the instrument a more conical sound, but also to free up the lower register which is usually a bit stuffy.

But in my mind at least, how much do you really need that agility with your 4th valve. If you need a quick passage than just use the first and third valve combination and nobody will be able to tell if it's a bit sharp. The only excerpt or solo that really is in that range anyway is pineapple poll, and most people just use alternative fingerings for that.

In my mind the 4 inline is much better, you have more freedom as where to put your left hand/arm and you can also pull slides. This is amazingly overlooked on euphonium. It allows you to stay closer to in-tune without the weight of a trigger.

I am really looking forward to the new Wessex, honestly my Adams plays superbly, but the ergonomics leave a lot to be desired. I have always found valve front instruments to be much, much more comfortable, both tubas and baritones. I am also looking forward to not having to have my bell face the tubas bell in ensembles. For you trombone players that don't know the feeling of have to bells point towards each other and play FFF it really makes it insanely hard to tune (even after you consider that it's a euphonium) and feels like someone is stuffing a sock down your bell and even after you tell your trumpet player director this is just goes "huh, well that sucks". /MiniRant.

Anyway, I will be trying one of these things as soon as I possibly can. It looks awesome.

ttf_58mark · Post by **ttf_58mark** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:43 am

For a really nice 4 in a row horn, check out the king 2280. I like it more than the yamaha

ttf_ChadA · Post by **ttf_ChadA** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:01 am

Quote from: 58mark on Apr 28, 2017, 09:43AMFor a really nice 4 in a row horn, check out the king 2280. I like it more than the yamaha

Great horn and with a moveable 3rd valve tuning slide system.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:22 am

Why not a 3 +1 front action, with the 4th valve and main slide kicker bar (operated with middle finger) right next to one another?

I played a normal euphonium and immediately wished it had been designed like that.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:39 pm

Quote from: Tbonedude on Apr 25, 2017, 12:57PMThe Festivo is fully compensating.

Fully compensating... it compensates when the third and/or the fourth valve are depressed or does that really just mean it compensates for the use of the fourth valve?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:13 pm

Just about any 4 valve compensator is compensated for use of the 4th valve. There are 3 valve compensators that are compensating for use of the 3rd valve. Never seen one that compensated for both.

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:29 pm

Here's my idea of an ergonomic euph. How about a tenor sousaphone or helicon?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:49 pm

Quote from: Sliphorn on Apr 28, 2017, 05:29PMHere's my idea of an ergonomic euph. How about a tenor sousaphone or helicon?

These exist. I believe made by Conn. 3 valve, though.

There's even an Indian instrument that Trent Hamilton evaluated and said it wasn't even worth is weight as scrap metal.

ttf_chipolah · Post by **ttf_chipolah** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:21 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 28, 2017, 06:49PMThese exist. I believe made by Conn. 3 valve, though.

There's even an Indian instrument that Trent Hamilton evaluated and said it wasn't even worth is weight as scrap metal.
Look at the Wessex website. There's a Helicon and a Tornister Euphonium !!!

ttf_Whitbey · Post by **ttf_Whitbey** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:13 am

I have a customized Cerveny euphonium 0.590 inch 15mm bore 4 rotary valve with bass shank receiver and a movable main tuning slide. For my eyes the valved front is an absolute for me. Rotary valves articulate better for me since I am a trombonist.
I can use my left index finger to kick the main slide and also easily pull the 4th slide.
Nice sound and in tune.

ttf_JasonDonnelly · Post by **ttf_JasonDonnelly** » Wed May 03, 2017 5:29 pm

Quote from: Whitbey on Apr 29, 2017, 10:13AMI have a customized Cerveny euphonium 0.590 inch 15mm bore 4 rotary valve with bass shank receiver and a movable main tuning slide. For my eyes the valved front is an absolute for me. Rotary valves articulate better for me since I am a trombonist.
I can use my left index finger to kick the main slide and also easily pull the 4th slide.
Nice sound and in tune.

I've played on an Alexander rotary euphonium (this one had 6 valves!). It played very well but there was absolutely no comfortable way to play it while standing up...I'm sure a harness or something could get made, but it was still a bit of an issue.

For me, the 3 + 1 is the way to go. I don't have any trouble with notes responding or fast 4th valves passages. I don't mind 4 valve inline either, but I wouldn't prefer it.

I've only played a little bit of tuba, but I definitely think the ideal setup for me would be front-action pistons, with a 5th valve in my left hand.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed May 03, 2017 5:37 pm

Actually, a lot of tubas have the 5th valve operated by the right thumb. So you have 4 inline valves (piston or rotary) and the 5th valve lever right behind a ring for holding the thing.

My Mirafone F has 5 valves, but the 5th is operated by the left hand (all rotary).

ttf_Whitbey · Post by **ttf_Whitbey** » Wed May 03, 2017 8:21 pm

Quote from: JasonDonnelly on May 03, 2017, 05:29PMI've played on an Alexander rotary euphonium (this one had 6 valves!). It played very well but there was absolutely no comfortable way to play it while standing up...I'm sure a harness or something could get made, but it was still a bit of an issue.

For me, the 3 + 1 is the way to go. I don't have any trouble with notes responding or fast 4th valves passages. I don't mind 4 valve inline either, but I wouldn't prefer it.

I've only played a little bit of tuba, but I definitely think the ideal setup for me would be front-action pistons, with a 5th valve in my left hand.

I am tall with a long torso. A euphonium does not sit on my lap or even come close. I have neck strap.

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Wed May 03, 2017 9:24 pm

I like the 3+1 set up better than 4 inline. It's very easy for me to think of operating that 4th valve with my left hand just like I'd operate a trombone F-valve.

My pinky can't get the 4th valve inline very well.

ttf_Whitbey · Post by **ttf_Whitbey** » Thu May 04, 2017 5:06 am

With the Cerveny euphonium the keys do compensate for the pinkie finger. It is easy to choke up on the keys to get a shorter stroke. This leaves the shorter pinkie finger at the end of the key that is then easier to push. Also I use my left index finger to move a lever on my main tuning slide or my thumb and index finger to kick out the 4th valve slide.

ttf_chipolah · Post by **ttf_chipolah** » Thu May 04, 2017 8:24 am

The Festivo can be played at least 2 ways; 4 in line, or as a 3+1. The left hand reaches around very easily for the 4th valve.

ttf_chipolah · Post by **ttf_chipolah** » Thu May 04, 2017 8:24 am

The Festivo can be played at least 2 ways; 4 in line, or as a 3+1. The left hand reaches around very easily for the 4th valve.