Lesser known orchestral works

ttf_Jeff Smith · Post by **ttf_Jeff Smith** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:38 am

Definitely the Dvorak Requiem is lesser known.

Not so much the others, but definitely the Dvorak.

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:50 pm

Let's add some real lesser-known works. These will sort the men from the boys.

Johan Wagenaar (Anything will do - he's quite obscure, but worth investigating. The Dutch equivalent of Richard Strauss.)

George Whitefield Chadwick (Roughly contemporary and another one well worth investigating. Some lovely trombone writing.)

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:14 pm

Did the Chadwick "Jubilee" last year. For some reason it seems to show up in a lot of "Americana" concerts, so you might not see them too much on the other side of the pond. Chadwick was a resident of Lowell Massachusetts, and our Lowell Philharmonic played a bunch of his music (although not that well

).

Also did William Grant Still's "African American Suite". One of the movements actually calls for a banjo.

ttf_Tim Dowling · Post by **ttf_Tim Dowling** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:10 pm

Quote from: Fishlips on Nov 02, 2009, 12:53PM

Tchaikovski's 6th doesn't get much play time anymore and has some really great trombone parts.
Mendelssohn's 3rd in movements 3 and 4 have demanding trombone parts also.

Mendelssohn 3? I really have to check out the trombone parts in that one

ttf_Fishlips · Post by **ttf_Fishlips** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:42 am

3rd and 4th movements..nice chorale sections, screaming alto part, difficult intonation challenges.

my list may not include lesser known works, per say, but i have had the opportunity to play them only once in 20 years of playing. so, for me, they were lesser known, i guess!

still, i was pleasantly surprised at the quality of trombone parts for each....whatever. check 'em out if you have not played 'em.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:50 am

Quote from: Tim Dowling on Nov 03, 2009, 10:10PMMendelssohn 3? I really have to check out the trombone parts in that one

I'm with Tim on this one, Fishlips.
Which version of Mendelssohn 3 are you thinking of?

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_Tim Dowling · Post by **ttf_Tim Dowling** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:19 pm

I'm suspecting a case of mistaken identity. Perhaps Schumann is the culprit. Mendelssohn's 3rd is the " Scottish" and since the Scottish trombonists were probably in the pub during the first performance this symphony sadly lacks trombones.

ttf_drpepper911 · Post by **ttf_drpepper911** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:03 pm

How about Mahler 8.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:53 pm

The Mendelssohn symphony you're probably thinking of is the 2nd, also known as the Sinfonia from the Hymn of Praise. The trombones are featured prominently in this piece, playing the main melody soli right at the beginning.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:00 am

Quote from: Tim Dowling on Nov 04, 2009, 12:19PMI'm suspecting a case of mistaken identity. Perhaps Schumann is the culprit. Mendelssohn's 3rd is the " Scottish" and since the Scottish trombonists were probably in the pub during the first performance this symphony sadly lacks trombones.

I'm sure our resident Scottish bass trombonist will confirm your suspicions on this one, Tim

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:33 am

Elgar has been mentioned a few times, including his In the South. I've never played it, but I've heard it once or twice. Another Elgar piece, which I'm currently playing: Falstaff, A Study in C Minor. Lots of fun.

His Cockaigne Overture, Wand of Youth suites, Pomp and Circumstance Marches and Enigma Variations are well known, and a few people have played his Symphony No. 1 (an under-rated and lesser known work), but Falstaff and In the South are rarely heard or played. It's a shame: they're almost Straussian in orchestration, expanse and development, but purely Elgar in the tunes and harmony.

***

I just looked up Elgar in my copy of Baker's Biographical Dictionary (1988 by Slonimsky; the one with the misplaced apostrophe

). Talk about obscure pieces: Falstaff isn't even mentioned!

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:55 am

Ken, I think the works you mention must be obscure in North America, but they are certainly not here in Britain. All of the works cited are within the regular repertoire of amateur and professional symphony orchestras here in the UK and I have played in almost all of them. Indeed, I'm performing on the G bass trombone in Enigma Variations and Cockaigne in two weeks' time.

ttf_fsgazda · Post by **ttf_fsgazda** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:20 am

QuoteI'm surprised our UK friends haven't mentioned Stanford's symphonies--they are much less performed than his choral works. I had the pleasure to play "The Irish" a few years ago; the last movement isn't exceptionally virtuosic for the bones, but it is a long hard blow!

I just heard the 1st movement of Stanford's Symphony #7, on XM satellite radio (they actually played the whole thing, but I had to get out of my car). It was quite reminiscent of Mendelssohn, with a little more "heft".

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:30 pm

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Nov 05, 2009, 10:55AM the works you mention must be obscure in North America, but they are certainly not here in Britain.

That must be the case. Perhaps one of the reasons this particular orchestra has done some Elgar in the recent past is we've got a mad Welshman as a music director.

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Nov 05, 2009, 10:55AMIndeed, I'm performing on the G bass trombone in Enigma Variations and Cockaigne in two weeks' time.

My hat is off to you! It's difficult enough for a modern bass trombonist to do it, but playing it on a G bass trombone. . . !

Slightly off topic. . . Does Elgar have a more distinct feeling or sound of "rightness" or "correctness" using a G bass and (presumably) narrow bore trombones? Are the remainder of the brass section using instruments that approximate the kind of instruments in used during Elgar's time? It must be a very different and unique sound compared to the large bore tenors and modern bass that we're used to hearing over here.

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:42 pm

Only the tuba is also downsizing. The trombones are using a pair of medium bore tenors and a G/D bass (0.5265" bore). Given that the orchestra's not particularly large, it will work well. The same section performed with the same combination of instruments in Elgar's In the South a few months ago to great acclaim. I think there really is a lot to be said for the brighter, crisper approach in works by composers such as Elgar.

ttf_bonespiel · Post by **ttf_bonespiel** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:34 pm

Every once in a while, XM/Sirius does play something interesting.....This morning I heard the first movement of Sinding's 3rd symphony. I found it enjoyable (almost a bit Brucknerian in spots, though, which is sometimes a little more static than I prefer

). It had plenty of low brass passages.

EPJ

ttf_Jox · Post by **ttf_Jox** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:40 am

How about most of Shostakovich's Symphonies? We all know the fifth is the most performed. I'm really digging the other ones, taking advantage of our University's Music Library. Theres a couple trombone solos in some.
I just listened to the 3rd last night (at 2:30 in the morning) and there is a very revealed, high trombone solo worth checking out.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:41 am

Was thinkin about this, then I realized I have a very odd one...

The NFL films music. Very Brassy and some great stuff for a full orchestra.

/am ashamed
//no I am not
///Guilty Pleasure....

ttf_Johnston93 · Post by **ttf_Johnston93** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:34 pm

I know this is an old topic, but I have to post this:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDC92570CC354AF00

Franz Schmidt - Symphony #2 (Legendary Chicago Brass) It's a must hear.

ttf_djdekok · Post by **ttf_djdekok** » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:34 am

Quote from: Jox on Nov 07, 2009, 07:40AMHow about most of Shostakovich's Symphonies? We all know the fifth is the most performed. I'm really digging the other ones, taking advantage of our University's Music Library. Theres a couple trombone solos in some.
I just listened to the 3rd last night (at 2:30 in the morning) and there is a very revealed, high trombone solo worth checking out.

I've played Shosty 1, and didn't particularly care for it. That may have had to do with the fact that no composer should be writing alto clef parts for second trombone.

I did like playing his symphonic poem October.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:49 am

We just performed the Gliere Symphony #1. Most of us in the orchestra had never heard of it, but we really enjoyed playing it. It was nice having an occasional part where you weren't part of a low voice "blaap" to counter the upper voices.

Dvorak 8 and 9 (old 4 and 5) are performed frequently, but the 7th (old 2) is not done anywhere as frequently. Dvorak did some nice trombone writing.

ttf_matto · Post by **ttf_matto** » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:35 am

Arthur Honegger - Le Roi David.

Even though the orchestration is listed as three trombones, I played a single trombone reduction, in fact it may have been a winds only version as seen here from the New England Conservatory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZWz9PBpGFM).

Wild piece, very prominent part in the March of the Philistines (26:41 in the video), and I seem to recall an isolated ppp pedal A-flat immediately following an extended high range passage that ended one of the movements. Wish now that I had made a copy of the part when I played it 15 years ago.

ttf_djdekok · Post by **ttf_djdekok** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:06 am

Quote from: matto on Nov 19, 2015, 09:35AMArthur Honegger - Le Roi David.

Even though the orchestration is listed as three trombones, I played a single trombone reduction, in fact it may have been a winds only version as seen here from the New England Conservatory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZWz9PBpGFM).

Wild piece, very prominent part in the March of the Philistines (26:41 in the video), and I seem to recall an isolated ppp pedal A-flat immediately following an extended high range passage that ended one of the movements. Wish now that I had made a copy of the part when I played it 15 years ago.

According to established sources, the wind version came first. The story goes that Honegger had to write for only the available forces, so the original scoring was for small wind ensemble (19-20 players, don't remember exact instrumentation). Thumbs up for this piece. Listen closely and you'll hear shades of Hollywood Biblical epics...

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:28 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Nov 19, 2015, 06:49AMDvorak 8 and 9 (old 4 and 5) are performed frequently, but the 7th (old 2) is not done anywhere as frequently. Dvorak did some nice trombone writing.

Maybe where you are, Bruce. I've performed No. 7 several times. It is played quite frequently here in Europe, alongside Nos. 8 and 9. Nos. 4-6 are rarer, whilst Nos. 1-3 are almost never heard, certainly not 1 or 2. I've had the good fortune to perform in 4-9 (and rehearse No. 3 once).

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:30 am

Quote from: Johnston93 on Nov 15, 2015, 06:34PMI know this is an old topic, but I have to post this:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDC92570CC354AF00

Franz Schmidt - Symphony #2 (Legendary Chicago Brass) It's a must hear.

The four symphonies of Franz Schmidt are all wonderful, as are the four symphonies of Albéric Magnard and the two orchestral symphonies of Alexander Zemlinsky. Among lesser known Russian symphonies are those of Kalinnikov, Kabalevsky, Grechaninov, and Lyapunov.

ttf_Johnston93 · Post by **ttf_Johnston93** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:55 am

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Nov 23, 2015, 06:30AMThe four symphonies of Franz Schmidt are all wonderful, as are the four symphonies of Albéric Magnard and the two orchestral symphonies of Alexander Zemlinsky. Among lesser known Russian symphonies are those of Kalinnikov, Kabalevsky, Grechaninov, and Lyapunov.

Thanks for the share! I hope I have time to explore the rest of Schmidt's symphonies as well as Zemlinky's, and the others you mentioned. I'm sure there are too many pieces to explore, but it's nice to stumble upon those great lesser known works every now and again.

Kurt Weill's second Symphony has a great Trombone solo, which i didn't learn about until this year. Posted below is a fantastic recording of Martin Schippers playing the solo, he really does do an outstanding job.
_________________________________________________ _
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLKcIHZYPew

ttf_Paul Martin · Post by **ttf_Paul Martin** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:09 pm

Villa-Lobos' "Emperor Jones."

ttf_jhayashi17 · Post by **ttf_jhayashi17** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:57 pm

There are certainly pieces here that I have not heard of, but I'm surprised that one piece hasn't come up! I really Like Respighi's Beliks... its hardly lesser known, but I think it deserves a little more attention than it gets. Sibelius 1 is also something I'd like to hear more of.

ttf_Mahlerbone · Post by **ttf_Mahlerbone** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:50 pm

Marcel Tyberg - Symphony No. 3
Rachmaninov - Isle of the Dead

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:48 pm

Yes, let's revive this old topic! It gave me great listening suggestions years ago.

So here are a few new suggestions :

Wagner's symphony in C major - not a masterpiece, but it is really interesting to hear the hints at what would become his language, and to imagine what could have been if this symphony had been performed by Mendelssohn as he had hoped, and if he had become a symphonist. Not super interesting trombone parts, but the bass trombone is used to great effect in the (absolutely gorgeous) second mouvement.

Bruckner's Requiem - Early work clearly inspired by Mozart and possibly M.Haydn. Trombones are the only winds (except a solo horn in one movement) and are playing colla parte, plus a few exposed passages.

Cherubini's Requiem - Less obscure than the two previous pieces, but not so frequently programmed by professional orchestras. One of the rare works of Cherubini that Berlioz admired.

And another Requiem, that of Michael Haydn - Widely believed to have been a major inspiration for Mozart's own Requiem, yet that is about the only context in which people mention it and it is rarely played. (That Quam olim Abrahae is absolutely amazing) In my humble opinion, deserves a place among the most beautiful (and most performed) pieces of the genre along with Mozart, Berlioz, Dvorak and Verdi.

Sibelius' Tapiola, his last major work. Not easy music, nice trombone parts.

Édouard Lalo's overture to le Roi d'Ys - The opera is not particularly good, but the overture is nice, and has trombone parts that are really fun to play (and a big Tannhauser quote). And is a real triple-tonguing etude for the trumpets

ttf_djdekok · Post by **ttf_djdekok** » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:14 am

Quote from: Elkhart 88H on Mar 05, 2009, 06:40AMThe orchestra that I play with performed Paul Creston's Two Choric Dances on its most recent subscription concert. The work convinced me that Creston is underrated as a composer and deserves much more exposure in the concert hall and on CD. I haven't been able to find a CD recording of both dances, though I did locate an LP recording by Golschmann and the Concert Arts Orchestra on Capitol. A used copy is on its way to me from a dealer in NYC.

Another lesser-known orchestral work that I particularly like is the Peacock Variations by Kodaly. Testament reissued Istvan Kertesz's recording with the London Symphony a few years ago, and it's a gem.

I did Creston's Celebration Overture on my master's conducting recital and performed the Fantasy years before that. Time has lessened my opinion of his work. While he is freely tonal and aurally accessible, the thick textures and aggressive rhythmic passages remind me of an accordion being played as the performer rides down a bumpy hill, but what can you expect from a guy who smoked coffee grounds?

ttf_Johnston93 · Post by **ttf_Johnston93** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:53 pm

Dvorak - The Noon Witch

ttf_JasonDonnelly · Post by **ttf_JasonDonnelly** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:11 pm

The YouTube channel by the name of "Unsung Masterworks" has dozens of obscure orchestral pieces, and I've found some that I enjoy very much from them.

Just a few:

Cyril Scott's Symphony No. 3
Anton Rubenstein's Symphony No. 2
Raff's Symphones (plenty of them)
John Blackwood McEwen's Solway Symphony
Fibich's Symphony No. 1

ttf_djdekok · Post by **ttf_djdekok** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:40 pm

Quote from: Johnston93 on Jun 04, 2017, 07:53PMDvorak - The Noon Witch

Did that piece with a community orchestra several years ago. Charming piece.

ttf_djdekok · Post by **ttf_djdekok** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:40 pm

Quote from: Johnston93 on Jun 04, 2017, 07:53PMDvorak - The Noon Witch

Did that piece with a community orchestra several years ago. Charming piece.