Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2016, 12:56PMThe pasture around the city was 2000 cubits on each side and the city was 1000 cubits in from the outer boundary of the pasture.
1000 units in from the edge of a square that is 2000 units on each side would be the center of the square, a single point of area=zero.
No?
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ttf_robcat2075
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Quote from: robcat2075 on Mar 06, 2016, 01:13PM1000 units in from the edge of a square that is 2000 units on each side ...
I think the description puts the 1000 cubits outside the edge of the 2000 cubits (the outer body of the pasture--i.e. the city pastures went from outside of the city borders to 1k cubits beyond them).
I think the description puts the 1000 cubits outside the edge of the 2000 cubits (the outer body of the pasture--i.e. the city pastures went from outside of the city borders to 1k cubits beyond them).
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: robcat2075 on Mar 06, 2016, 01:13PM1000 units in from the edge of a square that is 2000 units on each side would be the center of the square, a single point of area=zero.
No?
Yes. That's why I used diagonals.
Quote from: Baron von Bone on Mar 06, 2016, 01:22PM
I think the description puts the 1000 cubits outside the edge of the 2000 cubits (the outer body of the pasture--i.e. the city pastures went from outside of the city borders to 1k cubits beyond them).
Yeah, you're right the instructions say to go 1000 cubits out from the city wall for the boundary of the pastures, but then it says to measure 2000 cubits for each side, with the city being in the middle. So if you work backwards, each side is 2000 cubits long and you measure 1000 cubits in from the sides you get back to a point, with no room for a city.
So (assuming that they actually built "cities" using these instructions) I think that we don't understand how they applied the measurements.
Its probably more significant IMHO to notice that their justice system differentiated between murder and manslaughter and provided relief from revenge killings in the case of manslaughter. So apologies for the tangent.
No?
Yes. That's why I used diagonals.
Quote from: Baron von Bone on Mar 06, 2016, 01:22PM
I think the description puts the 1000 cubits outside the edge of the 2000 cubits (the outer body of the pasture--i.e. the city pastures went from outside of the city borders to 1k cubits beyond them).
Yeah, you're right the instructions say to go 1000 cubits out from the city wall for the boundary of the pastures, but then it says to measure 2000 cubits for each side, with the city being in the middle. So if you work backwards, each side is 2000 cubits long and you measure 1000 cubits in from the sides you get back to a point, with no room for a city.
So (assuming that they actually built "cities" using these instructions) I think that we don't understand how they applied the measurements.
Its probably more significant IMHO to notice that their justice system differentiated between murder and manslaughter and provided relief from revenge killings in the case of manslaughter. So apologies for the tangent.
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Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2016, 02:39PMSo (assuming that they actually built "cities" using these instructions) I think that we don't understand how they applied the measurements.
They don't seem to have brought their former Egyptian overlords understanding of geometry with them.
Suppose we presume 2000 units on the outside of the city, that would imply a settlement with a width of 2000+1000+2000 or 5000 units and an area of 5000x5000 or 25,000,000 sq units
If units are cubits (18 inches) I'm figuring the total area of the settlement is about 2 square miles. Is that enough to support 600 families?
They don't seem to have brought their former Egyptian overlords understanding of geometry with them.
Suppose we presume 2000 units on the outside of the city, that would imply a settlement with a width of 2000+1000+2000 or 5000 units and an area of 5000x5000 or 25,000,000 sq units
If units are cubits (18 inches) I'm figuring the total area of the settlement is about 2 square miles. Is that enough to support 600 families?
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Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 06, 2016, 07:58AMmetropolises (metropoles?)
that would be metropoleis - at least in the Greek,
Incidentally (while I'm showing off my google research skills) metropolis means "mother city" and was originally used for the city or state of origin of a colony. So the Levite "cities" wouldn't have counted as metropolises or metropoleis or metropoles.
And I'll happily acknowledge that I'm a word geek.
that would be metropoleis - at least in the Greek,
Incidentally (while I'm showing off my google research skills) metropolis means "mother city" and was originally used for the city or state of origin of a colony. So the Levite "cities" wouldn't have counted as metropolises or metropoleis or metropoles.
And I'll happily acknowledge that I'm a word geek.
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Numbers 36 text
Highlights
- keeping the land in the family
Summary
- some chiefs from Manasseh came to Moses and reminded him that daughters could inherit land if there was no sons in the family, and pointed out that if the daughters married outside the tribe the tribe would lose the land. (This concern arose from the case of the daughters of Zelophehad from Numbers 27.)
- Moses acknowledged the point and said that The Lord had said that women that own land have to marry within the tribe so that no inheritance is transferred from one tribe to another.
- These are the commandments and the rules that the Lord commanded through Moses to the people of Israel in the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho
Questions and Observations
1. That was an interesting conclusion to the book wasn't it. How to make sure none of the land gets misadvertently inherited by the wrong tribe.
2. You almost miss it but the last verse places them right across the Jordan from the Promised Land. Woo Hoo they're almost there. How exciting is it. They left Egypt in Exodus 3 books ago and now they've nearly arrived. Do you think the next book will tell us about how they cross the Jordan and finally enter the Promised Land?
Highlights
- keeping the land in the family
Summary
- some chiefs from Manasseh came to Moses and reminded him that daughters could inherit land if there was no sons in the family, and pointed out that if the daughters married outside the tribe the tribe would lose the land. (This concern arose from the case of the daughters of Zelophehad from Numbers 27.)
- Moses acknowledged the point and said that The Lord had said that women that own land have to marry within the tribe so that no inheritance is transferred from one tribe to another.
- These are the commandments and the rules that the Lord commanded through Moses to the people of Israel in the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho
Questions and Observations
1. That was an interesting conclusion to the book wasn't it. How to make sure none of the land gets misadvertently inherited by the wrong tribe.
2. You almost miss it but the last verse places them right across the Jordan from the Promised Land. Woo Hoo they're almost there. How exciting is it. They left Egypt in Exodus 3 books ago and now they've nearly arrived. Do you think the next book will tell us about how they cross the Jordan and finally enter the Promised Land?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2016, 07:08PMthat would be metropoleis - at least in the Greek,
Incidentally (while I'm showing off my google research skills) metropolis means "mother city" and was originally used for the city or state of origin of a colony. So the Levite "cities" wouldn't have counted as metropolises or metropoleis or metropoles.
And I'll happily acknowledge that I'm a word geek.
I took my lead from this answer - apparently, although a Greek word, it came to English from Latin... So various choices, none of them much cop: 'metropolises' (standard English plural, no messing around, but ugly), 'metropoles' (Latin plural, looks nicer in English, but it was a borrow for them too), 'metropoleis' (Greek plural, probably the most justifiable, but looks even uglier in English than where we started from). 'Cities' wins, I think...
As you like words, I'll have a ponder on a perhaps trivial point that made me think - one of Zelophehad's daughters apparently had a male name, and a famous one at that - Noah. I realise that I don't have a great feel for what made names for these people masculine or feminine, or whether in fact they differentiated their names that way at all. The ever-willing-to-inform Wikipedia tells us that the Hebrew version of the Patriarch's name is found in two forms: נוֹחַ and נֹחַ, but while it mentions the Hebrew version of Zelophehad's daughter's name, it doesn't give it, instead giving the more usual modern Hebrew name Noa (נֹעָה). So, in a spirit of exploration for one who is almost entirely without knowledge of the Hebrew alphabet (I know what an Aleph looks like from being taught transfinite set theory, but I've forgotten what Beth does from the same source...), I set out...
This page looks helpful, listing the Hebrew consonants for us; so far as I can see, the script used in the above cut-and-pasting is the Manual Print version - correct?
Not forgetting to read right-to-left, it looks like the first letter of each of those names is Nun, the Hebrew N. A promising start! But then it gets harder - ancient Hebrew didn't have a full vowel set, and let some consonants moonlight as vowels in particular contexts (like an English 'y' or a Welsh 'w'), but later on some chaps ("Masoretes", meaning basically "bearers of a tradition") developed the system of vowel markings used today to make the traditional vowel values given to words more explicit.
The second letter of the three-letter version of the Patriarch's name looks to me to be a Vav, which the vowel introduction text tells us could also be a 'oh' sound, in addition to its regular V (or possibly W) consonantal duty.
The two-letter version of the Patriarch's name seems to be the modern rendering of it, with a diacritical vowel - correct? The dot on the top left corner of the Nun letter also represents an 'oh' sound.
The final letter is the same for both, and is I think a Hey - although the single arc of it doesn't seem the same as the two-part arc as shown in the alphabet introduction page. Could it maybe be a Chet, making a throaty 'ch' sound? The line underneath it adds an 'ah' vowel sound; it's not clear to me why the non-vowel version has this annotation too, though - anyone know?
So we basically have 'Noh-ah' here, but there's a point that's eluding me: We are told that Hey is usually silent at the end of a word, which appears to be happening here - but it has an 'ah' vowel on it. This looks to me like it should be read 'Noh-hah', but evidently I'm wrong on that. Is the annotated vowel always after the letter it is attached to, or is sometimes before? Or does the silent Hey at the end of the word stay silent even if there's a vowel after it? Confused here...
Well, that took longer than I thought it would. Now for the difficult bit - finding Zelophehad's daughter's name in a Hebrew version of the text. There are two Hebrew texts on the Bible Gateway site, but one is New Testament only. The other is a transcription of the Leningrad Codex, covering the whole text. I think I've pulled out the correct word from Numbers 27:1 (fourth word from the end): נֹעָ֔ה. This has the same Nun with an 'oh' attached to start, and a Hey (or Chet?) to finish, but without annotation, and with a different middle letter - an Ayin, which has no sound of its own, acting only as a 'carrier' for a vowel sound. This letter is here marked with both an above and a below diacritic, with the below marking being an 'ah', as before. The meaning of the above marking is obscure to me - it's not in the correct place for a vowel. Is it perhaps an accent mark?
Having worked through all that, I am still not all clear whether the two names are the same word or not. Anyone with Hebrew out there reading?
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2016, 07:30PM 1. That was an interesting conclusion to the book wasn't it. How to make sure none of the land gets misadvertently inherited by the wrong tribe.
The nature of tribal thinking is very interesting. Humans tend to strongly align themselves into in-groups and out-groups, and this is massively on display in this book. To my mind, this is a problematic tendency that one has to learn how to resist or at least shape sympathetically as one matures - Good: Cheering for your sports team; Bad: Fighting with rival fans.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2016, 07:30PM 2. You almost miss it but the last verse places them right across the Jordan from the Promised Land. Woo Hoo they're almost there. How exciting is it. They left Egypt in Exodus 3 books ago and now they've nearly arrived. Do you think the next book will tell us about how they cross the Jordan and finally enter the Promised Land?
So near, but yet so far... I can't remember the details, but as I recall, it's not till the opening of the Book of Joshua that it actually happens. Is that right?
Incidentally (while I'm showing off my google research skills) metropolis means "mother city" and was originally used for the city or state of origin of a colony. So the Levite "cities" wouldn't have counted as metropolises or metropoleis or metropoles.
And I'll happily acknowledge that I'm a word geek.
I took my lead from this answer - apparently, although a Greek word, it came to English from Latin... So various choices, none of them much cop: 'metropolises' (standard English plural, no messing around, but ugly), 'metropoles' (Latin plural, looks nicer in English, but it was a borrow for them too), 'metropoleis' (Greek plural, probably the most justifiable, but looks even uglier in English than where we started from). 'Cities' wins, I think...
As you like words, I'll have a ponder on a perhaps trivial point that made me think - one of Zelophehad's daughters apparently had a male name, and a famous one at that - Noah. I realise that I don't have a great feel for what made names for these people masculine or feminine, or whether in fact they differentiated their names that way at all. The ever-willing-to-inform Wikipedia tells us that the Hebrew version of the Patriarch's name is found in two forms: נוֹחַ and נֹחַ, but while it mentions the Hebrew version of Zelophehad's daughter's name, it doesn't give it, instead giving the more usual modern Hebrew name Noa (נֹעָה). So, in a spirit of exploration for one who is almost entirely without knowledge of the Hebrew alphabet (I know what an Aleph looks like from being taught transfinite set theory, but I've forgotten what Beth does from the same source...), I set out...
This page looks helpful, listing the Hebrew consonants for us; so far as I can see, the script used in the above cut-and-pasting is the Manual Print version - correct?
Not forgetting to read right-to-left, it looks like the first letter of each of those names is Nun, the Hebrew N. A promising start! But then it gets harder - ancient Hebrew didn't have a full vowel set, and let some consonants moonlight as vowels in particular contexts (like an English 'y' or a Welsh 'w'), but later on some chaps ("Masoretes", meaning basically "bearers of a tradition") developed the system of vowel markings used today to make the traditional vowel values given to words more explicit.
The second letter of the three-letter version of the Patriarch's name looks to me to be a Vav, which the vowel introduction text tells us could also be a 'oh' sound, in addition to its regular V (or possibly W) consonantal duty.
The two-letter version of the Patriarch's name seems to be the modern rendering of it, with a diacritical vowel - correct? The dot on the top left corner of the Nun letter also represents an 'oh' sound.
The final letter is the same for both, and is I think a Hey - although the single arc of it doesn't seem the same as the two-part arc as shown in the alphabet introduction page. Could it maybe be a Chet, making a throaty 'ch' sound? The line underneath it adds an 'ah' vowel sound; it's not clear to me why the non-vowel version has this annotation too, though - anyone know?
So we basically have 'Noh-ah' here, but there's a point that's eluding me: We are told that Hey is usually silent at the end of a word, which appears to be happening here - but it has an 'ah' vowel on it. This looks to me like it should be read 'Noh-hah', but evidently I'm wrong on that. Is the annotated vowel always after the letter it is attached to, or is sometimes before? Or does the silent Hey at the end of the word stay silent even if there's a vowel after it? Confused here...
Well, that took longer than I thought it would. Now for the difficult bit - finding Zelophehad's daughter's name in a Hebrew version of the text. There are two Hebrew texts on the Bible Gateway site, but one is New Testament only. The other is a transcription of the Leningrad Codex, covering the whole text. I think I've pulled out the correct word from Numbers 27:1 (fourth word from the end): נֹעָ֔ה. This has the same Nun with an 'oh' attached to start, and a Hey (or Chet?) to finish, but without annotation, and with a different middle letter - an Ayin, which has no sound of its own, acting only as a 'carrier' for a vowel sound. This letter is here marked with both an above and a below diacritic, with the below marking being an 'ah', as before. The meaning of the above marking is obscure to me - it's not in the correct place for a vowel. Is it perhaps an accent mark?
Having worked through all that, I am still not all clear whether the two names are the same word or not. Anyone with Hebrew out there reading?
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2016, 07:30PM 1. That was an interesting conclusion to the book wasn't it. How to make sure none of the land gets misadvertently inherited by the wrong tribe.
The nature of tribal thinking is very interesting. Humans tend to strongly align themselves into in-groups and out-groups, and this is massively on display in this book. To my mind, this is a problematic tendency that one has to learn how to resist or at least shape sympathetically as one matures - Good: Cheering for your sports team; Bad: Fighting with rival fans.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2016, 07:30PM 2. You almost miss it but the last verse places them right across the Jordan from the Promised Land. Woo Hoo they're almost there. How exciting is it. They left Egypt in Exodus 3 books ago and now they've nearly arrived. Do you think the next book will tell us about how they cross the Jordan and finally enter the Promised Land?
So near, but yet so far... I can't remember the details, but as I recall, it's not till the opening of the Book of Joshua that it actually happens. Is that right?
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ttf_MoominDave
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As an intro, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus:
Quote from: MoominDave on Feb 10, 2016, 07:38AMAs a reminder, here's the Genesis and Exodus story summaries I made:
Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 10, 2016, 01:03PMAs an intro to the Exodus story summary, the same for Genesis, as the two run on into each other, more or less:
Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 05, 2015, 05:14AMHere we are - the story so far, Book of Genesis:
We start with big picture stuff.
Creation
- Days of creation, the world and everything in it, Adam and Eve.
- Tempting of Eve by the serpent; Eve and Adam eat the forbidden fruit.
- The Fall; A&E expelled from the garden.
The first attempt at a human world
- Cain murders Abel.
- Humans spread. Some of them are bad people.
- Many generations pass.
The flood
- God becomes weary of human misbehaviour.
- Noah told to build boat, gather family and animals.
- Earth is flooded, everything else dies. [A point that we missed at the time occurs to me - if this is true, why do we have trees now? Did Noah take seeds as well?]
The second attempt at a human world
- Many generations pass; listed lifespans decrease so rapidly that Noah's son Shem outlives all of them.
- Language creation comes from the Tower of Babel story; Hebrew is specified as the earlier original language.
Now the narrative focusses in on more detail, dealing with the (mis)adventures of Abraham and his family.
Abraham
- Abram starts out from Ur (modern-day Iraq), travelling extensively with family. He takes in Haran (modern-day Turkey), Canaan (modern-day Israel), the Negeb (desert region in the South of modern-day Israel) Egypt, where Abram and Sarai are evidently politically highly placed, Canaan again. He dwells by the Oaks of Mamre, and is buried in the Cave of Machpelah.
- God promises Abram and Sarai lots of descendants, renames them Abraham and Sarah, demands circumcision. Isaac shows up late in life, a half-brother for Ishmael, who is banished along his mother Hagar, but also has lots of descendants.
- Lot escapes Sodom, which Abraham pleads for.
- Abraham gets out of sacrificing Isaac.
Isaac
- Abraham's servant brings back Rebekah, a cousin-wife for Isaac.
- They have twins, Esau and Jacob.
Jacob
- Jacob subverts Esau's inheritance, and is banished. But Rebekah favours Jacob, and Isaac goes along with it.
- Jacob is ostensibly sent away to find a cousin-wife. He ends up serving Laban for many years for this, but comes away with two wives (Leah and Rachel) and two concubines (Bilhah and Zilpah), eventually having various sons with all of them.
- Jacob returns, fearful of Esau's reception. But Esau welcomes him.
- He is renamed 'Israel'.
- Jacob's sons create local trouble and he has to move.
Joseph
- Joseph, Rachel's oldest son, is favoured by Jacob. His brothers resent this and sell him into slavery.
- Sold to Egypt, he works for highly placed Potiphar, but his wife conspires to jail him.
- He rises from jail through skill in interpreting dreams prophetically, becoming one of the foremost administrators of the land.
- Having prepared for famine, Egypt fares well under his stewardship. His family, unknowingly, come to ask him for help.
- After several turns, he then welcomes them to Egypt, where they take up residence. All live happily ever after...
Or do they...?
And then, Exodus:
Moses rises
- Three generations have passed. The Israelites are now resented in Egypt and treated as a servant/slave class.
- Pharaoh orders Israelite children killed. The baby Moses is placed on the Nile in a basket to escape this fate, and is rescued by Pharaoh's daughter.
- Moses has a divine commission to extract the Israelites from Egypt.
- A battle of wills is played, with plagues punishing Pharaoh.
- The final plague is the death of the Egyptian firstborn, and is the explanation given for the Jewish festival of PAssover.
- Eventually Moses gets his way; the Israelites all leave Egypt. Pharaoh rethinks, chasing them, but his troops are killed by the returning waters of the Red Sea.
The Wandering in the Desert, part 1
- The Israelites begin their 40 years en route to their new home, moving between various places.
- Moses is their acknowledged leader, but he faces a goodly portion of dissent.
- When hungry, they are supplied with manna by God.
- Joshua becomes a powerful figure in Israelite society, leading armed forces against the Amalekites.
- Moses lays out secular laws, with help from Jethro, his father-in-law.
Mount Sinai
- The Israelites reach the mountain.
- Here Moses finds much to communicate with God about.
- Divine covenants are regiven, and phrased more bloodily.
- Sacred laws are given, and engraved on stone tablets.
- God specifies to Moses over several days on the mountain how his portable temple ("tabernacle") is to be built by the Israelites.
- While Moses is absent, Aaron mounts a coup, replacing God with a golden calf object.
- When Moses returns, bloody reprisals are mounted to bring the Israelites back into line. The stone tablets are broken.
- The command is given for the Israelites to prepare to move on from Mount Sinai.
- The stone tablets are regiven.
- The Israelites pull together to construct the tabernacle.
While Genesis and Exodus were largely a narration of historical events in sequence, Leviticus is different - essentially a legal code for this religious society, written down as if given to the Israelites as they sojourned at Mount Sinai. It is noteworthy that it seems agreed that this book was subject to modification over a long period - particularly so for those that are given to proclaiming this book as eternal and unchanging.
Miscellaneous laws
- Laws about offerings to cover various categories of usage
- Aaron and sons to be the priestly power, with their actions specified
- Aaron's sons punished by death for deviating
- Laws about cleanliness, using a concept rather akin to the Islamic haraam and halal
- Designation of Yom Kippur as an annual festival to atone for the deeds of Aaron's sons
- Laws about sacrifice
- Laws about sex and relationships
- Prescriptions for regular usage, and censure for those that don't follow
- Laws for priests (stricter)
- Laws about eligible animals for offerings
- Specification of religious festivals
- Laws about conflict
- Laws about farming
- Divine retribution for disobedience
- Laws about vows
Numbers completes the task of Leviticus, and then narrates the remainder of the time of wandering
Final preparations for leaving Mt Sinai
- Census, an exercise repeated much later in the chapter
- Layout and cleanliness of the camp as they move
- Levites as a priestly class with responsibilities, including the Tabernacle. Aaron's family to head.
- Specification of the "Nazirite" vow - a monkish type of thing
- Various laws, spread throughout the book - sacrifices, garments, cleanliness, inheritance, offerings, vows
The Wandering in the Desert, part 2
- The people are restless; God punishes them bloodily, a pattern oft-repeated in this book
- Miriam and Aaron mount an attempted coup but fail
- Spies are sent to Canaan; they report back a land of immense strength, and the Israelites lose faith in the idea; God condemns them to more wandering for this; some Israelites attack but are repelled
- Korah the Levite rebels against Moses; he and followers are killed
- Moses 'demonstrates' God's power by having staffs of wood bud leaves; this settles the Israelites down
...40 years pass in between chapters...
- Miriam and Aaron die
- Conflicts arise between the Israelites and their new neighbours, which don't go well for the Israelites at first; Edom refuses them entry; Sihon refuses them entry and attacks them; Bashan does the same, but is defeated.
- But the tide turns; Balak's Moabites decide not to fight them after Balaam and his donkey are flattering about the Israelites
- The Midianite religion draws in lots of Israelites; it is suppressed with lots of killing and a divine command to kill more in a bit, which is honoured with graphic violence
- Joshua is appointed successor to Moses when the time comes
- Reuben and Gad settle in Gilead temporarily, after a spot of debate and violence
- They are now across the river from their intended destination
Anticipation of The Promised Land
- Layout and division of the land
Quote from: MoominDave on Feb 10, 2016, 07:38AMAs a reminder, here's the Genesis and Exodus story summaries I made:
Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 10, 2016, 01:03PMAs an intro to the Exodus story summary, the same for Genesis, as the two run on into each other, more or less:
Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 05, 2015, 05:14AMHere we are - the story so far, Book of Genesis:
We start with big picture stuff.
Creation
- Days of creation, the world and everything in it, Adam and Eve.
- Tempting of Eve by the serpent; Eve and Adam eat the forbidden fruit.
- The Fall; A&E expelled from the garden.
The first attempt at a human world
- Cain murders Abel.
- Humans spread. Some of them are bad people.
- Many generations pass.
The flood
- God becomes weary of human misbehaviour.
- Noah told to build boat, gather family and animals.
- Earth is flooded, everything else dies. [A point that we missed at the time occurs to me - if this is true, why do we have trees now? Did Noah take seeds as well?]
The second attempt at a human world
- Many generations pass; listed lifespans decrease so rapidly that Noah's son Shem outlives all of them.
- Language creation comes from the Tower of Babel story; Hebrew is specified as the earlier original language.
Now the narrative focusses in on more detail, dealing with the (mis)adventures of Abraham and his family.
Abraham
- Abram starts out from Ur (modern-day Iraq), travelling extensively with family. He takes in Haran (modern-day Turkey), Canaan (modern-day Israel), the Negeb (desert region in the South of modern-day Israel) Egypt, where Abram and Sarai are evidently politically highly placed, Canaan again. He dwells by the Oaks of Mamre, and is buried in the Cave of Machpelah.
- God promises Abram and Sarai lots of descendants, renames them Abraham and Sarah, demands circumcision. Isaac shows up late in life, a half-brother for Ishmael, who is banished along his mother Hagar, but also has lots of descendants.
- Lot escapes Sodom, which Abraham pleads for.
- Abraham gets out of sacrificing Isaac.
Isaac
- Abraham's servant brings back Rebekah, a cousin-wife for Isaac.
- They have twins, Esau and Jacob.
Jacob
- Jacob subverts Esau's inheritance, and is banished. But Rebekah favours Jacob, and Isaac goes along with it.
- Jacob is ostensibly sent away to find a cousin-wife. He ends up serving Laban for many years for this, but comes away with two wives (Leah and Rachel) and two concubines (Bilhah and Zilpah), eventually having various sons with all of them.
- Jacob returns, fearful of Esau's reception. But Esau welcomes him.
- He is renamed 'Israel'.
- Jacob's sons create local trouble and he has to move.
Joseph
- Joseph, Rachel's oldest son, is favoured by Jacob. His brothers resent this and sell him into slavery.
- Sold to Egypt, he works for highly placed Potiphar, but his wife conspires to jail him.
- He rises from jail through skill in interpreting dreams prophetically, becoming one of the foremost administrators of the land.
- Having prepared for famine, Egypt fares well under his stewardship. His family, unknowingly, come to ask him for help.
- After several turns, he then welcomes them to Egypt, where they take up residence. All live happily ever after...
Or do they...?
And then, Exodus:
Moses rises
- Three generations have passed. The Israelites are now resented in Egypt and treated as a servant/slave class.
- Pharaoh orders Israelite children killed. The baby Moses is placed on the Nile in a basket to escape this fate, and is rescued by Pharaoh's daughter.
- Moses has a divine commission to extract the Israelites from Egypt.
- A battle of wills is played, with plagues punishing Pharaoh.
- The final plague is the death of the Egyptian firstborn, and is the explanation given for the Jewish festival of PAssover.
- Eventually Moses gets his way; the Israelites all leave Egypt. Pharaoh rethinks, chasing them, but his troops are killed by the returning waters of the Red Sea.
The Wandering in the Desert, part 1
- The Israelites begin their 40 years en route to their new home, moving between various places.
- Moses is their acknowledged leader, but he faces a goodly portion of dissent.
- When hungry, they are supplied with manna by God.
- Joshua becomes a powerful figure in Israelite society, leading armed forces against the Amalekites.
- Moses lays out secular laws, with help from Jethro, his father-in-law.
Mount Sinai
- The Israelites reach the mountain.
- Here Moses finds much to communicate with God about.
- Divine covenants are regiven, and phrased more bloodily.
- Sacred laws are given, and engraved on stone tablets.
- God specifies to Moses over several days on the mountain how his portable temple ("tabernacle") is to be built by the Israelites.
- While Moses is absent, Aaron mounts a coup, replacing God with a golden calf object.
- When Moses returns, bloody reprisals are mounted to bring the Israelites back into line. The stone tablets are broken.
- The command is given for the Israelites to prepare to move on from Mount Sinai.
- The stone tablets are regiven.
- The Israelites pull together to construct the tabernacle.
While Genesis and Exodus were largely a narration of historical events in sequence, Leviticus is different - essentially a legal code for this religious society, written down as if given to the Israelites as they sojourned at Mount Sinai. It is noteworthy that it seems agreed that this book was subject to modification over a long period - particularly so for those that are given to proclaiming this book as eternal and unchanging.
Miscellaneous laws
- Laws about offerings to cover various categories of usage
- Aaron and sons to be the priestly power, with their actions specified
- Aaron's sons punished by death for deviating
- Laws about cleanliness, using a concept rather akin to the Islamic haraam and halal
- Designation of Yom Kippur as an annual festival to atone for the deeds of Aaron's sons
- Laws about sacrifice
- Laws about sex and relationships
- Prescriptions for regular usage, and censure for those that don't follow
- Laws for priests (stricter)
- Laws about eligible animals for offerings
- Specification of religious festivals
- Laws about conflict
- Laws about farming
- Divine retribution for disobedience
- Laws about vows
Numbers completes the task of Leviticus, and then narrates the remainder of the time of wandering
Final preparations for leaving Mt Sinai
- Census, an exercise repeated much later in the chapter
- Layout and cleanliness of the camp as they move
- Levites as a priestly class with responsibilities, including the Tabernacle. Aaron's family to head.
- Specification of the "Nazirite" vow - a monkish type of thing
- Various laws, spread throughout the book - sacrifices, garments, cleanliness, inheritance, offerings, vows
The Wandering in the Desert, part 2
- The people are restless; God punishes them bloodily, a pattern oft-repeated in this book
- Miriam and Aaron mount an attempted coup but fail
- Spies are sent to Canaan; they report back a land of immense strength, and the Israelites lose faith in the idea; God condemns them to more wandering for this; some Israelites attack but are repelled
- Korah the Levite rebels against Moses; he and followers are killed
- Moses 'demonstrates' God's power by having staffs of wood bud leaves; this settles the Israelites down
...40 years pass in between chapters...
- Miriam and Aaron die
- Conflicts arise between the Israelites and their new neighbours, which don't go well for the Israelites at first; Edom refuses them entry; Sihon refuses them entry and attacks them; Bashan does the same, but is defeated.
- But the tide turns; Balak's Moabites decide not to fight them after Balaam and his donkey are flattering about the Israelites
- The Midianite religion draws in lots of Israelites; it is suppressed with lots of killing and a divine command to kill more in a bit, which is honoured with graphic violence
- Joshua is appointed successor to Moses when the time comes
- Reuben and Gad settle in Gilead temporarily, after a spot of debate and violence
- They are now across the river from their intended destination
Anticipation of The Promised Land
- Layout and division of the land
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 07, 2016, 04:10AMSo near, but yet so far... I can't remember the details, but as I recall, it's not till the opening of the Book of Joshua that it actually happens. Is that right?
No spoilers will be provided.
And I don't know enough Hebrew to comment on Zelophehad's daughters name
No spoilers will be provided.
And I don't know enough Hebrew to comment on Zelophehad's daughters name
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ttf_drizabone
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I've never paid too much attention to Numbers before so I wanted to do a more detailed summary. Voila
Numbers : Summary
1. The warriors were counted. The Levites were counted separately
2. The layout of the camp is specified
3. The Levites are told what parts of the tabernacle are their responsibilities
The requirement to redeem firstborn sons and cattle and sheep is defined.
4. Some of the Levite clans are given special tasks
5. Some rules for Uncleanness, Confession and Restitution and a Test for Adultery
6. The Nazirite Vow
7. The Tabernacle is consecrated
8. The Levites are cleansed and get a retirment plan
9. The Passover is celebrated. God takes up residence in the Tabernacle
10. Silver trumpets to be used to signal the nation. Israel leaves Sinai
11. The People complain and God punishes them. Moses appoints Elders to help him
12. Miriam and Aaron oppose Moses. Miriam is punished by God
13. Spies are sent into Canaan. 10 say its too scary. 2 say its not.
14. The people decide the don't want to take the Promised Land and winge about how good Egypt was
God decides to kill all the People and start again with Moses' descendants
Moses intercedes for the People
God relents, he won't kill them but that generation won't enter the Land
The People decide to fight the Amorites after all but get defeated.
15. Details for more sacrifices for when they enter the Land
Laws about how to make up for unintentional sins
A Sabbath breaker is executed
Put blue tassels on thier clothes so as a reminder of the commandments
16. Korah a priest leads a rebellion against Moses.
God kills the rebels
The people grumble about it so God kills some of them too
17. Aaron's staff buds as a sign that he is God has chosen him
18. The Priests and the Levites are to guard the Tabernacle
The priests get the contributions that the People make
The Levites get the tithes that the People make
19. How to make Holy Water and the ritual required for coming into contact with the dead
20. Miriam and Aaron die. Moses disobeys God and loses the privilege of going into the Land.
Edom refuses passage
21. Some Amorites nations destroyed. The Bronze Serpent
22. Balak wants Balaam to curse The People but God won't let him.
23. Balaam blesses Israel under God's control
24. The Moabites corrupt The People. Phineas kills some wrongdoes. God kills lots.
25. Another census. The New Generation
26. The Daughters of Zelophehad ask to be able to inherit their fathers land
27. More offerings detailed
28. More offerings detailed
29. Offerings for Feast Days
30. Take your vows to God seriously
31. The People take vengance on the Midianites
32. Reuben and Gad settle in Gilead - east of the Jordan
33. Recounting the journey. Warnings to drive out the Canaanites.
34. The boundaries of the Land they will inherit.
35. Levitical cities and cities of refuge
36. Instructions for who female heirs can marry.
Small aside that they have just about reached the Promised Land
To me, Moses and God are the two primary characters since Genesis, so I've got a couple of questions I'm thinking about:
1. What is Moses character and how has he developed since we first met him?
2. What do we know about God as depicted in Gen, Ex, Lev and Numbers. Has he changed/grown at all?
Numbers : Summary
1. The warriors were counted. The Levites were counted separately
2. The layout of the camp is specified
3. The Levites are told what parts of the tabernacle are their responsibilities
The requirement to redeem firstborn sons and cattle and sheep is defined.
4. Some of the Levite clans are given special tasks
5. Some rules for Uncleanness, Confession and Restitution and a Test for Adultery
6. The Nazirite Vow
7. The Tabernacle is consecrated
8. The Levites are cleansed and get a retirment plan
9. The Passover is celebrated. God takes up residence in the Tabernacle
10. Silver trumpets to be used to signal the nation. Israel leaves Sinai
11. The People complain and God punishes them. Moses appoints Elders to help him
12. Miriam and Aaron oppose Moses. Miriam is punished by God
13. Spies are sent into Canaan. 10 say its too scary. 2 say its not.
14. The people decide the don't want to take the Promised Land and winge about how good Egypt was
God decides to kill all the People and start again with Moses' descendants
Moses intercedes for the People
God relents, he won't kill them but that generation won't enter the Land
The People decide to fight the Amorites after all but get defeated.
15. Details for more sacrifices for when they enter the Land
Laws about how to make up for unintentional sins
A Sabbath breaker is executed
Put blue tassels on thier clothes so as a reminder of the commandments
16. Korah a priest leads a rebellion against Moses.
God kills the rebels
The people grumble about it so God kills some of them too
17. Aaron's staff buds as a sign that he is God has chosen him
18. The Priests and the Levites are to guard the Tabernacle
The priests get the contributions that the People make
The Levites get the tithes that the People make
19. How to make Holy Water and the ritual required for coming into contact with the dead
20. Miriam and Aaron die. Moses disobeys God and loses the privilege of going into the Land.
Edom refuses passage
21. Some Amorites nations destroyed. The Bronze Serpent
22. Balak wants Balaam to curse The People but God won't let him.
23. Balaam blesses Israel under God's control
24. The Moabites corrupt The People. Phineas kills some wrongdoes. God kills lots.
25. Another census. The New Generation
26. The Daughters of Zelophehad ask to be able to inherit their fathers land
27. More offerings detailed
28. More offerings detailed
29. Offerings for Feast Days
30. Take your vows to God seriously
31. The People take vengance on the Midianites
32. Reuben and Gad settle in Gilead - east of the Jordan
33. Recounting the journey. Warnings to drive out the Canaanites.
34. The boundaries of the Land they will inherit.
35. Levitical cities and cities of refuge
36. Instructions for who female heirs can marry.
Small aside that they have just about reached the Promised Land
To me, Moses and God are the two primary characters since Genesis, so I've got a couple of questions I'm thinking about:
1. What is Moses character and how has he developed since we first met him?
2. What do we know about God as depicted in Gen, Ex, Lev and Numbers. Has he changed/grown at all?
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ttf_drizabone
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Here's what I think of Moses:
- learns how to argue with God by appealing to his values
- much more assertive now
- originally afraid to speak out (at burning bush)
- now talks back to God and bosses the People around
- caring
- cares for Israel
- takes their rejection personally
- prepared to argue with God for their sake
- felt sorry for Miriam after God punished her
- strong leader
- makes hard decisions, can be ruthless
- expects them followed
- doesn't delegate easily
- not jealous of his position
- loyal to God
- doesn't complain when he finds out he won't get into the promised land
- keeps leading Israel
- mostly obedient
- enough so that God uses him to pass on his instructions
- except when he doesn't follow instructions on how to bring water out of a rock
- can get annoyed
- when the People grizzled to him he takes out his stress on God
- ruthless
- orders killing of Midianite women because they led Israel away from God
- orders killing of Israelite sinners
- learns how to argue with God by appealing to his values
- much more assertive now
- originally afraid to speak out (at burning bush)
- now talks back to God and bosses the People around
- caring
- cares for Israel
- takes their rejection personally
- prepared to argue with God for their sake
- felt sorry for Miriam after God punished her
- strong leader
- makes hard decisions, can be ruthless
- expects them followed
- doesn't delegate easily
- not jealous of his position
- loyal to God
- doesn't complain when he finds out he won't get into the promised land
- keeps leading Israel
- mostly obedient
- enough so that God uses him to pass on his instructions
- except when he doesn't follow instructions on how to bring water out of a rock
- can get annoyed
- when the People grizzled to him he takes out his stress on God
- ruthless
- orders killing of Midianite women because they led Israel away from God
- orders killing of Israelite sinners
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ttf_drizabone
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And what does the text say about God, aka The Lord
- he thinks that because he freed the People and promised to bless them, they should love, obey and respect him. Just like a son does his father.
- he lives with the People, in their camp
- he doesn't like people grumbling about things he does for them
- he doesn't like people not trusting him or holding him in high regard
- he's a control freak.
- he likes presents
- he Really Really doesn't like sin and sets up elaborate laws (631 of them so far) to tell you what to do, and as well as that he gives rituals to make yourself clean again if you do the wrong thing (or if something about you isn't proper - eg bleeding, emissions, molds ...)
- he has a Really Really high opinion of himself and what he thinks is important (he did create the cosmos after all), and not such a high value on people and what we think is important.
- God's opinion of himself, as reported by Balaam "God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind. Has he promised, and will he not do it? Has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" (23:19)
- he thinks that because he freed the People and promised to bless them, they should love, obey and respect him. Just like a son does his father.
- he lives with the People, in their camp
- he doesn't like people grumbling about things he does for them
- he doesn't like people not trusting him or holding him in high regard
- he's a control freak.
- he likes presents
- he Really Really doesn't like sin and sets up elaborate laws (631 of them so far) to tell you what to do, and as well as that he gives rituals to make yourself clean again if you do the wrong thing (or if something about you isn't proper - eg bleeding, emissions, molds ...)
- he has a Really Really high opinion of himself and what he thinks is important (he did create the cosmos after all), and not such a high value on people and what we think is important.
- God's opinion of himself, as reported by Balaam "God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind. Has he promised, and will he not do it? Has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" (23:19)
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ttf_drizabone
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Deuteronomy 1 text
Highlights
- Revision Time
Summary
- This is what Moses told Israel, beyond the Jordan, 11 days walk from Mt Horeb, after 40 years wandering in the wilderness, Moses explained the Law to them. He said:
- Leave Horeb and take possession of the Land that God swore to your ancestors
- Appoint some leaders
- But when they arrived they didn't trust God to be with them and they chickened out and wanted to go back to Egypt
- So God said that they would die in the wilderness, except for Caleb and Joshua
Questions and Observations
1. I think Horeb is another name for Mt Sinai, where God appeared to Moses, gave them the Law and they made the golden calf.
2. This book looks like its going to be Moses explaining the Law to the New Generation before they enter the Land.
3. So seeing we haven't had a 40 year time period and generational change since we were at Sianai we can probably zoom through this book fairly easily, but looking for differences between the recounting and the original event and noting the spots where we get more explanation than was originally given. We'll see.
4. Moses wanted to make it clear that if the People had trusted God they would have been in the land 40 years ealier.
Highlights
- Revision Time
Summary
- This is what Moses told Israel, beyond the Jordan, 11 days walk from Mt Horeb, after 40 years wandering in the wilderness, Moses explained the Law to them. He said:
- Leave Horeb and take possession of the Land that God swore to your ancestors
- Appoint some leaders
- But when they arrived they didn't trust God to be with them and they chickened out and wanted to go back to Egypt
- So God said that they would die in the wilderness, except for Caleb and Joshua
Questions and Observations
1. I think Horeb is another name for Mt Sinai, where God appeared to Moses, gave them the Law and they made the golden calf.
2. This book looks like its going to be Moses explaining the Law to the New Generation before they enter the Land.
3. So seeing we haven't had a 40 year time period and generational change since we were at Sianai we can probably zoom through this book fairly easily, but looking for differences between the recounting and the original event and noting the spots where we get more explanation than was originally given. We'll see.
4. Moses wanted to make it clear that if the People had trusted God they would have been in the land 40 years ealier.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Deuteronomy 2 text
Highlights
- Moses continues to remind the Israelites of the details of their journey (part 2 of several)
Summary
- Chapter 1 took us up to Israel's balking at the strength of Canaan, abortive unofficial attack, and subsequent retreat
- Apparently they were all militarily driven as far as Kadesh by the repulsing of the attack of some Israelites on the Amorites after their main force decided not to attack Canaan. This is more explicit than Numbers 14:39-45, which we skipped over a little.
- 38 years of wandering amongst various specified tribes (I don't recall all of these names from Numbers), which they were not to attack
- The destruction of the Amorites is given in greater detail.
Questions and Observations
1) I wonder if the abortive attack reported in this text as being by naughty rogue Israelites may have been a bit more official than they're letting on... Which would help explain why the whole camp was driven away by the Amorites. Perhaps did they try the full thing, get repulsed at the first hurdle, then dress up the truth a bit later on?
2) This is clearer about the treatment meted out to the defeated Amorites in the end - basically as bad as that which we grimaced over regarding the Midianites. I wonder if the grudge over their military defeat 40 years earlier was strongly in mind here?
3) Same moral objection to God's apparent dealing with Sihon and the Amorites as with Pharoah and the Egyptians. If God can insert thoughts into someone's head, then why not insert a thought like "Wouldn't it be nice to move 100 miles over that way, letting the Israelites have this land without a fight"? Instead, a rancid slaughter has to be undertaken that looks suspiciously like what would have had to happen for an invasion to take place in any case, in the absence of divine agency.
Highlights
- Moses continues to remind the Israelites of the details of their journey (part 2 of several)
Summary
- Chapter 1 took us up to Israel's balking at the strength of Canaan, abortive unofficial attack, and subsequent retreat
- Apparently they were all militarily driven as far as Kadesh by the repulsing of the attack of some Israelites on the Amorites after their main force decided not to attack Canaan. This is more explicit than Numbers 14:39-45, which we skipped over a little.
- 38 years of wandering amongst various specified tribes (I don't recall all of these names from Numbers), which they were not to attack
- The destruction of the Amorites is given in greater detail.
Questions and Observations
1) I wonder if the abortive attack reported in this text as being by naughty rogue Israelites may have been a bit more official than they're letting on... Which would help explain why the whole camp was driven away by the Amorites. Perhaps did they try the full thing, get repulsed at the first hurdle, then dress up the truth a bit later on?
2) This is clearer about the treatment meted out to the defeated Amorites in the end - basically as bad as that which we grimaced over regarding the Midianites. I wonder if the grudge over their military defeat 40 years earlier was strongly in mind here?
3) Same moral objection to God's apparent dealing with Sihon and the Amorites as with Pharoah and the Egyptians. If God can insert thoughts into someone's head, then why not insert a thought like "Wouldn't it be nice to move 100 miles over that way, letting the Israelites have this land without a fight"? Instead, a rancid slaughter has to be undertaken that looks suspiciously like what would have had to happen for an invasion to take place in any case, in the absence of divine agency.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Deuteronomy 3 text
Highlights
- Moses continues to remind the Israelites of the details of their journey (part 3 of several)
Summary
- Og and his people, Rephaim, the kingdom of Bashan get the same brutal treatment
- Moses not allowed to cross the river
Questions and Observations
1) It kind of hints that Og was also an Amorite. Maybe I don't understand the particular tribal subdivisions being referenced here.
2) The violence is not tacit again. Bad bad Israelites.
Highlights
- Moses continues to remind the Israelites of the details of their journey (part 3 of several)
Summary
- Og and his people, Rephaim, the kingdom of Bashan get the same brutal treatment
- Moses not allowed to cross the river
Questions and Observations
1) It kind of hints that Og was also an Amorite. Maybe I don't understand the particular tribal subdivisions being referenced here.
2) The violence is not tacit again. Bad bad Israelites.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 09, 2016, 07:38AMDeuteronomy 2 text
....
- 38 years of wandering amongst various specified tribes (I don't recall all of these names from Numbers), which they were not to attack
It seems that there were other people living in the wilderness, or at least owning it and aware of what is happening in it. Which is a little unexpected. We were wondering at the end off Leviticus whether or not the Ammorite tribes would have heard of the People and what was happening to them, so I think we have a mechanism for how their travels would have been known about.
Questions and Observations
1) I wonder if the abortive attack reported in this text as being by naughty rogue Israelites may have been a bit more official than they're letting on... Which would help explain why the whole camp was driven away by the Amorites. Perhaps did they try the full thing, get repulsed at the first hurdle, then dress up the truth a bit later on?
[/quote]
I didn't get the impression that it was a small group of Israelites that attacked.
Quote2) This is clearer about the treatment meted out to the defeated Amorites in the end - basically as bad as that which we grimaced over regarding the Midianites. I wonder if the grudge over their military defeat 40 years earlier was strongly in mind here?
3) Same moral objection to God's apparent dealing with Sihon and the Amorites as with Pharoah and the Egyptians. If God can insert thoughts into someone's head, then why not insert a thought like "Wouldn't it be nice to move 100 miles over that way, letting the Israelites have this land without a fight"? Instead, a rancid slaughter has to be undertaken that looks suspiciously like what would have had to happen for an invasion to take place in any case, in the absence of divine agency.
Three points:
- when "God inserts thoughts" into your head they are normally within character. So Pharaoh was already stubborn and not submissive
- the Amorites had form as being belligerent neighbours and it wasn't in character for them to have lived peaceably next door to the People.
- God had said to Abraham (I think) that he was going to punish the Amorites for their sin, and this was it.
....
- 38 years of wandering amongst various specified tribes (I don't recall all of these names from Numbers), which they were not to attack
It seems that there were other people living in the wilderness, or at least owning it and aware of what is happening in it. Which is a little unexpected. We were wondering at the end off Leviticus whether or not the Ammorite tribes would have heard of the People and what was happening to them, so I think we have a mechanism for how their travels would have been known about.
Questions and Observations
1) I wonder if the abortive attack reported in this text as being by naughty rogue Israelites may have been a bit more official than they're letting on... Which would help explain why the whole camp was driven away by the Amorites. Perhaps did they try the full thing, get repulsed at the first hurdle, then dress up the truth a bit later on?
[/quote]
I didn't get the impression that it was a small group of Israelites that attacked.
Quote2) This is clearer about the treatment meted out to the defeated Amorites in the end - basically as bad as that which we grimaced over regarding the Midianites. I wonder if the grudge over their military defeat 40 years earlier was strongly in mind here?
3) Same moral objection to God's apparent dealing with Sihon and the Amorites as with Pharoah and the Egyptians. If God can insert thoughts into someone's head, then why not insert a thought like "Wouldn't it be nice to move 100 miles over that way, letting the Israelites have this land without a fight"? Instead, a rancid slaughter has to be undertaken that looks suspiciously like what would have had to happen for an invasion to take place in any case, in the absence of divine agency.
Three points:
- when "God inserts thoughts" into your head they are normally within character. So Pharaoh was already stubborn and not submissive
- the Amorites had form as being belligerent neighbours and it wasn't in character for them to have lived peaceably next door to the People.
- God had said to Abraham (I think) that he was going to punish the Amorites for their sin, and this was it.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 09, 2016, 07:43AMDeuteronomy 3 text
Highlights
- Moses continues to remind the Israelites of the details of their journey (part 3 of several)
Summary
- Og and his people, Rephaim, the kingdom of Bashan get the same brutal treatment
- Moses not allowed to cross the river
Questions and Observations
1) It kind of hints that Og was also an Amorite. Maybe I don't understand the particular tribal subdivisions being referenced here.
Wikipedia has an page on them that mentions the biblical variety.
Quote2) The violence is not tacit again. Bad bad Israelites.
The Wiki says of the Amorites "These Amorites appear as nomadic clans ruled by fierce tribal chiefs, who forced themselves into lands they needed to graze their herds". So were the Israelites bad when judged by the contemporary standards or the culture they lived in? What standards should we judge them by, and why?
Highlights
- Moses continues to remind the Israelites of the details of their journey (part 3 of several)
Summary
- Og and his people, Rephaim, the kingdom of Bashan get the same brutal treatment
- Moses not allowed to cross the river
Questions and Observations
1) It kind of hints that Og was also an Amorite. Maybe I don't understand the particular tribal subdivisions being referenced here.
Wikipedia has an page on them that mentions the biblical variety.
Quote2) The violence is not tacit again. Bad bad Israelites.
The Wiki says of the Amorites "These Amorites appear as nomadic clans ruled by fierce tribal chiefs, who forced themselves into lands they needed to graze their herds". So were the Israelites bad when judged by the contemporary standards or the culture they lived in? What standards should we judge them by, and why?
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ttf_drizabone
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Deuteronomy 4 text
Highlights
- Moses lays out the law
Summary
- listen to the rules that I am teaching you so that you will do well and live long and prosper
- don't do what they did at Baal-Peor cause that got them killed
- obey the rules and everyone will think you are wise, because you have God living among you
- don't forget what you have seen, teach it to your kids
- don't make any carved images of God, becuase when God came to you he didn't have a visible form
- but when you do, you will be exiled and have to serve other gods, before I will restore you
- No Moses can't go into the land. Just climb a mountain and have a look at it
- The Lord alone is God: he spoke out of fire, rescued a nation by wonders and war and drove out nations to give you their land. He did this for you.
- Moses set aside some cities to be a refuge for manslayers
- This is the law that Moses set before the People just before they came into the Land.
Questions and Observations
1. There's an interesting mix of lecturing and narrative in the chapter don't you think?
2. Moses is laying out some significant principles here before they enter the land - "This is whats important to God - pay attention or die"
- The Lord alone is God
- Don't make idols
- The Lord is a consuming fire, a jealous God, and
- The Lord you God is a merciful God
3. and it was all based on what they had seen: whatever happened to "blind faith"?
4. I've probably said enough but this chapter has got a lot more significant stuff in it
Highlights
- Moses lays out the law
Summary
- listen to the rules that I am teaching you so that you will do well and live long and prosper
- don't do what they did at Baal-Peor cause that got them killed
- obey the rules and everyone will think you are wise, because you have God living among you
- don't forget what you have seen, teach it to your kids
- don't make any carved images of God, becuase when God came to you he didn't have a visible form
- but when you do, you will be exiled and have to serve other gods, before I will restore you
- No Moses can't go into the land. Just climb a mountain and have a look at it
- The Lord alone is God: he spoke out of fire, rescued a nation by wonders and war and drove out nations to give you their land. He did this for you.
- Moses set aside some cities to be a refuge for manslayers
- This is the law that Moses set before the People just before they came into the Land.
Questions and Observations
1. There's an interesting mix of lecturing and narrative in the chapter don't you think?
2. Moses is laying out some significant principles here before they enter the land - "This is whats important to God - pay attention or die"
- The Lord alone is God
- Don't make idols
- The Lord is a consuming fire, a jealous God, and
- The Lord you God is a merciful God
3. and it was all based on what they had seen: whatever happened to "blind faith"?
4. I've probably said enough but this chapter has got a lot more significant stuff in it
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ttf_robcat2075
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Quote from: drizabone on Mar 09, 2016, 07:02PM So were the Israelites bad when judged by the contemporary standards or the culture they lived in? What standards should we judge them by, and why?
"Contemporary standards" is a pretty weak and convenient notion.
Any behavior is contemporary to itself, right? And the "standards" seem to be on the level of "they did it too" even though some "they dids" are decried as sinful, not to be emulated, and others are adopted as a model.
I bet we could easily find a nearby contemporary civilization that had a law code in place at the time that said killing people and taking their stuff was wrong.
"Contemporary standards" is a pretty weak and convenient notion.
Any behavior is contemporary to itself, right? And the "standards" seem to be on the level of "they did it too" even though some "they dids" are decried as sinful, not to be emulated, and others are adopted as a model.
I bet we could easily find a nearby contemporary civilization that had a law code in place at the time that said killing people and taking their stuff was wrong.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: robcat2075 on Mar 09, 2016, 07:39PM"Contemporary standards" is a pretty weak and convenient notion.
Any behavior is contemporary to itself, right? And the "standards" seem to be on the level of "they did it too" even though some "they dids" are decried as sinful, not to be emulated, and others are adopted as a model.
I bet we could easily find a nearby contemporary civilization that had a law code in place at the time that said killing people and taking their stuff was wrong.
Oh wait, you mean like in the 10 commandments? So from an atheist perspective they're now hypocrites too. So much for me trying to point out an inconsistency in that position.
Any behavior is contemporary to itself, right? And the "standards" seem to be on the level of "they did it too" even though some "they dids" are decried as sinful, not to be emulated, and others are adopted as a model.
I bet we could easily find a nearby contemporary civilization that had a law code in place at the time that said killing people and taking their stuff was wrong.
Oh wait, you mean like in the 10 commandments? So from an atheist perspective they're now hypocrites too. So much for me trying to point out an inconsistency in that position.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Sure, judging ancient people by modern standards of behaviour is a quick route to finding absolutely anything wanting that one cares to. It seems reasonable to suppose that the behaviour of the Israelites was broadly in keeping with the behaviour of those around them. Though that said - they did become a dominant political force in that region, via the force of arms method described in this text - the Old Testament is their compiled history, the history of how the winners came to win on a local scale - it also seems reasonable that, whatever they did, they did it more so than their neighbours. If one asks how England came to be (or Australia, or the US, or indeed anywhere at all for that matter), it is a story of successive waves of brutality against those that previously owned the land - the previous owners were brutal back, but ultimately insufficiently. I tend to hope that humanity has basically grown out of this - but there are places in the world where it is still in terrible deployment - and ironically, the Middle East is one.
So changed times always make for an excuse that we'll buy for terrible behaviour. The people are not the same people. But there is something logically different in this religious case - we are told that the Christian God commanding this stuff is eternal and unchanging - that the same entity that ordered this stuff done this way is commanding a major portion of the world's population today. He's supposedly still out there, the same entity. Do we forgive him for this stuff too?
So changed times always make for an excuse that we'll buy for terrible behaviour. The people are not the same people. But there is something logically different in this religious case - we are told that the Christian God commanding this stuff is eternal and unchanging - that the same entity that ordered this stuff done this way is commanding a major portion of the world's population today. He's supposedly still out there, the same entity. Do we forgive him for this stuff too?
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ttf_MoominDave
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By this point the Israelites controlled a long plot of land. Deuteronomy 4 gives endpoints - from Aroer, East of the Dead Sea in modern Jordan all the way North to Mount Hermon on the border between Lebanon and Syria.
I think we can basically take this to mean that the fertile land near to the Jordan on the Eastern side was under their control for a length of some 140 miles. No boundary to the East is explicitly specified - perhaps because the land was infertile and empty? After all, that's the country that Abraham's group made a long detour to avoid travelling through en route from Ur.
I think we can basically take this to mean that the fertile land near to the Jordan on the Eastern side was under their control for a length of some 140 miles. No boundary to the East is explicitly specified - perhaps because the land was infertile and empty? After all, that's the country that Abraham's group made a long detour to avoid travelling through en route from Ur.
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ttf_drizabone
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Deuteronomy 5 text
Highlights
- The 10 Commandments v2
Summary
- Moses recounts the giving of the 10 commandments at Horeb - lots of fire and scary stuff
- He said that God said:
- I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
- You shall have no other gods before me
- Don't make any idols to worship because I am a jealous God
- Don't take my name in vain
- Keep the Sabbath. Don't make you kids or slaves work on the Sabbath either, cause I rescued you from slavery in Egypt
- Honour your Mum and Dad so that may live long and prosper in the land
- Don't murder
- Don't commit adultery
- Don't steal
- Don't bear false witness against your neighbour
- Don't cover your neighbours wife or property
- The people at Horeb were afraid of God, so they told Moses to talk to God on their behalf so that they wouldn't die.
- God was happy with this cause it indicated that they had a proper respect for him
- And God told Moses all the rules and that the people should keep them so that they would live long and prosper in the land.
Questions and Observations
1. Moses obviously watched too much Star Trek
2. What was Moses purpose in recounting the events at Mt Sinai (Horeb) this way?
3. Does Moses list of the laws here, different to what God they were at Mt Sinai? Why would this be?
Highlights
- The 10 Commandments v2
Summary
- Moses recounts the giving of the 10 commandments at Horeb - lots of fire and scary stuff
- He said that God said:
- I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
- You shall have no other gods before me
- Don't make any idols to worship because I am a jealous God
- Don't take my name in vain
- Keep the Sabbath. Don't make you kids or slaves work on the Sabbath either, cause I rescued you from slavery in Egypt
- Honour your Mum and Dad so that may live long and prosper in the land
- Don't murder
- Don't commit adultery
- Don't steal
- Don't bear false witness against your neighbour
- Don't cover your neighbours wife or property
- The people at Horeb were afraid of God, so they told Moses to talk to God on their behalf so that they wouldn't die.
- God was happy with this cause it indicated that they had a proper respect for him
- And God told Moses all the rules and that the people should keep them so that they would live long and prosper in the land.
Questions and Observations
1. Moses obviously watched too much Star Trek
2. What was Moses purpose in recounting the events at Mt Sinai (Horeb) this way?
3. Does Moses list of the laws here, different to what God they were at Mt Sinai? Why would this be?
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ttf_MoominDave
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So we've now seen the "Ten Commandments" given three times:
Exodus 20, Exodus 34, and now Deuteronomy 5.
The 'summary version' of Deuteronomy is very similar to the initial version of Exodus 20, but the version of the regiven stone tablets from Exodus 34 differs, despite being explicitly described in the text as "the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments" (Exodus 34:28). To compare relative to the expected list:
Exodus 20, Exodus 34, and now Deuteronomy 5.
The 'summary version' of Deuteronomy is very similar to the initial version of Exodus 20, but the version of the regiven stone tablets from Exodus 34 differs, despite being explicitly described in the text as "the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments" (Exodus 34:28). To compare relative to the expected list:
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ttf_drizabone
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Another possibility is based on the following observations:
1. 34:1 says: The Lord said to Moses, Cut for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke."
2. 34:27 says: And the Lord said to Moses, Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.
So:
- from 1 and 2 we can see that there were 2 lots of words/commandments written, God wrote down the words that were on the original stone tablets in ch20 on the new set of tablets. Moses was told to write down the commandments God specified in ch34. We're not told whether God told him to write them on stone or something else.
- the wrinkle in this is to decide whether v28 is telling us about God writing on the tablets as mentioned in v1 , or Moses writing on the tablets as in v27.
I think that v28 refers to v1 because it fits better with what the previous text says about who wrote on the stone tables (and the way I think the bible was written
) and is more consistent with the Deuteronomy 5 , even though its closer to v27, where Moses writes. Apparently the Hebrew grammar allows this too.
.
1. 34:1 says: The Lord said to Moses, Cut for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke."
2. 34:27 says: And the Lord said to Moses, Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.
So:
- from 1 and 2 we can see that there were 2 lots of words/commandments written, God wrote down the words that were on the original stone tablets in ch20 on the new set of tablets. Moses was told to write down the commandments God specified in ch34. We're not told whether God told him to write them on stone or something else.
- the wrinkle in this is to decide whether v28 is telling us about God writing on the tablets as mentioned in v1 , or Moses writing on the tablets as in v27.
I think that v28 refers to v1 because it fits better with what the previous text says about who wrote on the stone tables (and the way I think the bible was written
) and is more consistent with the Deuteronomy 5 , even though its closer to v27, where Moses writes. Apparently the Hebrew grammar allows this too..
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ttf_robcat2075
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ttf_drizabone
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ttf_drizabone
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Deuteronomy 6 text
Highlights
- Moses explains the Commandments
Summary
- Moses tells the Israelites to keep the commandments so that they would fear God so that they will live long and prosperous lives in the land
- The most important is "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."
- Moses reminds them how good God has been to them, he gave them the land and it even cane with lots of good things: cisterns, cities, vinyard, olive trees.
- so don't go after other god's or put God to the test
- when your son's ask about what the rules mean tell him: we were slaves in Egypt and God rescued us so he could give us the land he promised our ancestors, and gave us the rules for our good, so that we might live.
Questions and Observations
1. Moses is looking to the future now, to the descendants, not just the current generation.
2. v4 "The Lord our God is one Lord" is interesting because God is plural but is stated to be one. In the Hebrew OT it is used with singular forms of words when talking about The God but not when talking about other gods. Christians take this as referring to the trinitarian nature of God, but Jews don't.
Highlights
- Moses explains the Commandments
Summary
- Moses tells the Israelites to keep the commandments so that they would fear God so that they will live long and prosperous lives in the land
- The most important is "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."
- Moses reminds them how good God has been to them, he gave them the land and it even cane with lots of good things: cisterns, cities, vinyard, olive trees.
- so don't go after other god's or put God to the test
- when your son's ask about what the rules mean tell him: we were slaves in Egypt and God rescued us so he could give us the land he promised our ancestors, and gave us the rules for our good, so that we might live.
Questions and Observations
1. Moses is looking to the future now, to the descendants, not just the current generation.
2. v4 "The Lord our God is one Lord" is interesting because God is plural but is stated to be one. In the Hebrew OT it is used with singular forms of words when talking about The God but not when talking about other gods. Christians take this as referring to the trinitarian nature of God, but Jews don't.
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ttf_drizabone
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Deuteronomy 7 text
Highlights
- Keep Gods covenant and be blessed or else be destroyed like the Canaanites
Summary
- God wants the Israelites to completely destroy and not mingle with the nations currently living in Canaan
- Because the are Holy to God, because God choese them even though they were the smallest nation, because he loves them and is faithful to keep the promise he made to their ancestors.
- So they are to keep their part of the covenant because God will destroy those who hate him
- Goid will love and bless them if they keep the rules
- They are not to be afraid of the larger nations because God is with them, and will destroy the nations
- The Israelites are to destroy the idols and altars and not take the silver or gold, lest they be ensnared by them and be devoted to destruction like them.
Questions and Observations
1. Another reference to the Israelites being the smallest nation.
2. The concept of clean and unclean things that they have been practicing for the last 40 years is now applied to them and the nations. Stay separate from them. Their "uncleanness" will make you unclean too
Highlights
- Keep Gods covenant and be blessed or else be destroyed like the Canaanites
Summary
- God wants the Israelites to completely destroy and not mingle with the nations currently living in Canaan
- Because the are Holy to God, because God choese them even though they were the smallest nation, because he loves them and is faithful to keep the promise he made to their ancestors.
- So they are to keep their part of the covenant because God will destroy those who hate him
- Goid will love and bless them if they keep the rules
- They are not to be afraid of the larger nations because God is with them, and will destroy the nations
- The Israelites are to destroy the idols and altars and not take the silver or gold, lest they be ensnared by them and be devoted to destruction like them.
Questions and Observations
1. Another reference to the Israelites being the smallest nation.
2. The concept of clean and unclean things that they have been practicing for the last 40 years is now applied to them and the nations. Stay separate from them. Their "uncleanness" will make you unclean too
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ttf_drizabone
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Deuteronomy 8 text
Highlights
- Remember the Lord Your God
Summary
- Remember this command and be careful to do it so that you will live long in the land and prosper
- Moses tells how God tested the People in the wilderness so that they would be humble
- But also how he looked after them and how he will bring them into a bountiful land
- They are warned not to forget the good things that Lord has done for them when they have plenty or go after other gods.
FYI for those who are curious
1. I think that the history of the Israelites is a picture of the christian life eg :
- slavery in Egypt corresponds to us being in sin prior to salvation
- the Passover and exodus corresponds to salvation
- the wilderness time where God tested and cared for the Israelites corresponds to our current life
- entry into the Promised Land where they would be blessed and not want for anything corresponds to our resurrection and entry into eternal life.
Highlights
- Remember the Lord Your God
Summary
- Remember this command and be careful to do it so that you will live long in the land and prosper
- Moses tells how God tested the People in the wilderness so that they would be humble
- But also how he looked after them and how he will bring them into a bountiful land
- They are warned not to forget the good things that Lord has done for them when they have plenty or go after other gods.
FYI for those who are curious
1. I think that the history of the Israelites is a picture of the christian life eg :
- slavery in Egypt corresponds to us being in sin prior to salvation
- the Passover and exodus corresponds to salvation
- the wilderness time where God tested and cared for the Israelites corresponds to our current life
- entry into the Promised Land where they would be blessed and not want for anything corresponds to our resurrection and entry into eternal life.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: drizabone on Mar 16, 2016, 07:13PM - the wilderness time where God tested and cared for the Israelites corresponds to our current life
But over their history, they were repeatedly defeated, conquered, exiled, and enslaved. Hmmmm.
But over their history, they were repeatedly defeated, conquered, exiled, and enslaved. Hmmmm.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 16, 2016, 07:16PMBut over their history, they were repeatedly defeated, conquered, exiled, and enslaved. Hmmmm.
Hmmmm. I only really take that period (and maybe God choosing Abraham) as typical. But I forget why, just that I do.
I'll have to work it out again.
Anyone out there fancy doing a chapter. Dave is busy with Banding, I think?
Hmmmm. I only really take that period (and maybe God choosing Abraham) as typical. But I forget why, just that I do.
I'll have to work it out again.Anyone out there fancy doing a chapter. Dave is busy with Banding, I think?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Sorry yes, Dave is being banded into the ground at the moment. Area contest on Saturday. Normal service to resume... I don't like to post in this thread without devoting some decent thought to it.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 17, 2016, 04:49AMSorry yes, Dave is being banded into the ground at the moment. Area contest on Saturday. Normal service to resume... I don't like to post in this thread without devoting some decent thought to it.
Hope it goes well for you, good luck
Hope it goes well for you, good luck
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ttf_drizabone
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Deuteronomy 9 text
Highlights
- Moses gives the People the game plan
Summary
- the Israelites are going to disposses nations greater and mightier than them, so the game plan is to rely on God to do the work
- and once God has won the land for them, don't think that it was because of your righteousness, it was because of those nations wickedness and the promise he hade to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
- they Israelites are subborn and rebellious and make the Lord angry, so don't forget it, especially the golden calf you made at Horeb
- Moses reminds them that he had to pray to the Lord for 40 day so that he wouldn't destroy them
Questions and Observations
1. ISTM that Deuteronomy is like a coaches pep talk before the game. This is Moses last chance to help the team, after this they're out of his hands.
2. But its a strange sort of pep talk isn't it, reminding them how they are so slack.
3. Notice how God judges all people. So why don't the commandments (like the one not to kill) apply to everyone? I mean that its ok to kill Amorites, they're not protected This covenant is like a contract. Do you think that its because God and the people have a deal, the people live by certain rules; God has no deal with the enemies of the Israelites, and so the Israelites are free to plunder and pillage their opponents. What do you think of this logic?
Highlights
- Moses gives the People the game plan
Summary
- the Israelites are going to disposses nations greater and mightier than them, so the game plan is to rely on God to do the work
- and once God has won the land for them, don't think that it was because of your righteousness, it was because of those nations wickedness and the promise he hade to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
- they Israelites are subborn and rebellious and make the Lord angry, so don't forget it, especially the golden calf you made at Horeb
- Moses reminds them that he had to pray to the Lord for 40 day so that he wouldn't destroy them
Questions and Observations
1. ISTM that Deuteronomy is like a coaches pep talk before the game. This is Moses last chance to help the team, after this they're out of his hands.
2. But its a strange sort of pep talk isn't it, reminding them how they are so slack.
3. Notice how God judges all people. So why don't the commandments (like the one not to kill) apply to everyone? I mean that its ok to kill Amorites, they're not protected This covenant is like a contract. Do you think that its because God and the people have a deal, the people live by certain rules; God has no deal with the enemies of the Israelites, and so the Israelites are free to plunder and pillage their opponents. What do you think of this logic?
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: drizabone on Mar 17, 2016, 04:18PM 3. Notice how God judges all people. So why don't the commandments (like the one not to kill) apply to everyone? I mean that its ok to kill Amorites, they're not protected This covenant is like a contract. Do you think that its because God and the people have a deal, the people live by certain rules; God has no deal with the enemies of the Israelites, and so the Israelites are free to plunder and pillage their opponents. What do you think of this logic?
I think it is classic human nature across all societies to treat "us" well but hate and fear the "other." We see this in today's culture though not quite as violently. As I see it, this is an injection of the culture of the time into the scriptures under the assumption that of course Yahweh would agree, but I don't assume it means he did.
I think it is classic human nature across all societies to treat "us" well but hate and fear the "other." We see this in today's culture though not quite as violently. As I see it, this is an injection of the culture of the time into the scriptures under the assumption that of course Yahweh would agree, but I don't assume it means he did.
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ttf_drizabone
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Deuteronomy 10 text
Highlights
- Moses recounts receiving the 10 Commandments
Summary
- Moses recounts receiving the tablets that God had written the 10 Commandments on and how he put them in the Ark of the Covenant
- He goes on a little side track about Aaron dieing and how the Levites were to be respnsible for carrying the ark
- And then says that God told him it was time to lead the people into the Land of Promise
- So now they should fear God, walk in his ways, love and serve him, because the rules he has given them are for their good.
- God owns everything and everyone, but he chose to love them, so they aren't to be stubborn. God gives justice to the opressed, so they are do the same
Questions and Observations
1. v16 "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart" - this is obviously a metaphor, but I'm not sure what it meant to them.
2. God expects the Isrealites to have the same standards of justice and care for the opressed as he had for them.
Highlights
- Moses recounts receiving the 10 Commandments
Summary
- Moses recounts receiving the tablets that God had written the 10 Commandments on and how he put them in the Ark of the Covenant
- He goes on a little side track about Aaron dieing and how the Levites were to be respnsible for carrying the ark
- And then says that God told him it was time to lead the people into the Land of Promise
- So now they should fear God, walk in his ways, love and serve him, because the rules he has given them are for their good.
- God owns everything and everyone, but he chose to love them, so they aren't to be stubborn. God gives justice to the opressed, so they are do the same
Questions and Observations
1. v16 "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart" - this is obviously a metaphor, but I'm not sure what it meant to them.
2. God expects the Isrealites to have the same standards of justice and care for the opressed as he had for them.
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ttf_drizabone
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Deuteronomy 11 text
Highlights
- Love and serve God and he will bless them
Summary
- They are reminded to remember what God has done and to love The Lord
- and to keep the Law so that they may be stong and take possession of the Land that God had given to their ancestors
- and if they love and server God he will send them rain and plenty, or else he won't and they will perish
- so remember them and teach them to your children, and God will defeat your enemies
- if you obey the Lord's commandments he will bless them, otherwise he will curse them
Questions and Observations
1. So back in Egypt it didn't rain, and they had to irrigate the fields, but in Israel they rely on rain to water their crops, and as God is in control of the weather, they rely on God.
Highlights
- Love and serve God and he will bless them
Summary
- They are reminded to remember what God has done and to love The Lord
- and to keep the Law so that they may be stong and take possession of the Land that God had given to their ancestors
- and if they love and server God he will send them rain and plenty, or else he won't and they will perish
- so remember them and teach them to your children, and God will defeat your enemies
- if you obey the Lord's commandments he will bless them, otherwise he will curse them
Questions and Observations
1. So back in Egypt it didn't rain, and they had to irrigate the fields, but in Israel they rely on rain to water their crops, and as God is in control of the weather, they rely on God.
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ttf_drizabone
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Deuteronomy 12 text
Highlights
- How to worship God in the Land
Summary
- the Israelites were to destroy the places where the nations worhipped, particularly destroy the gods names.
- they were to worship God in a place that God chooses, this was where they would bring their sacrifices
- the worship was to be characterised by joy because they were remembering the good things that God had done for them
- but they didn't have to bring meat that they killed to eat to that place
- they were to be careful not to eat blood which is "life"
- don't follow after the nations gods.
Questions and Observations
1. it seems that the names of gods were important, hence the instructions not to take God's name in vain, and to destroy the false gods names
2. in Ex 17 the people had to slaughter all their meet sacrificially in the temple, this will not be required (once they are spread out in the land)
3. incidentally nations is the same word as gentiles.
Highlights
- How to worship God in the Land
Summary
- the Israelites were to destroy the places where the nations worhipped, particularly destroy the gods names.
- they were to worship God in a place that God chooses, this was where they would bring their sacrifices
- the worship was to be characterised by joy because they were remembering the good things that God had done for them
- but they didn't have to bring meat that they killed to eat to that place
- they were to be careful not to eat blood which is "life"
- don't follow after the nations gods.
Questions and Observations
1. it seems that the names of gods were important, hence the instructions not to take God's name in vain, and to destroy the false gods names
2. in Ex 17 the people had to slaughter all their meet sacrificially in the temple, this will not be required (once they are spread out in the land)
3. incidentally nations is the same word as gentiles.
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ttf_drizabone
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Deuteronomy 13 text
Highlights
- Punishment of false worshippers
Summary
- if a prophet leads you after false gods, kill him, even if he has done signs and wonders
- if you friend or relative leads you to serve other gods, then kill them
- if a town or city turns to a false god then treat it as a Canaanite town: devote it and its residents to destruction
Questions and Observations
1. obviously these rules are cruel and barbaric if God doesn't exist and hadn't freed them from Egypt etc, but if he does exist and had rescued them from Egypt then he's entitled to claim loyalty. You may still think the rules are cruel and barbaric.
2. and there's obviously lots of room for abusing this too.
Highlights
- Punishment of false worshippers
Summary
- if a prophet leads you after false gods, kill him, even if he has done signs and wonders
- if you friend or relative leads you to serve other gods, then kill them
- if a town or city turns to a false god then treat it as a Canaanite town: devote it and its residents to destruction
Questions and Observations
1. obviously these rules are cruel and barbaric if God doesn't exist and hadn't freed them from Egypt etc, but if he does exist and had rescued them from Egypt then he's entitled to claim loyalty. You may still think the rules are cruel and barbaric.
2. and there's obviously lots of room for abusing this too.
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Deuteronomy 14 text
Highlights
- Israel to be marked out
- Isreal to celebrate God's goodness
Summary
- don't cut yourselves or make yourself bald for the dead because you are holy to God
- don't eat 'unclean' meat, fish or birds or animals that died naturally because you are holy to the Lord
- Gentiles could eat animals that have died
- don't boil a young goat in its mothers milk
- tithe from your crops and flock every year by taking it to the temple and eating it before the Lord, and rejoice
- share this with the Levites the fatherless and the widows
Questions and Observations
1. holy means separated, so these food laws symbbolised that the Israelites were God's chosen and were to be different to others as a resuly
2. Gentiles didn't have to comply with the food laws, so no need to worry.
3. this tithe was a response to God blessing them, and was a celebration where they could thank God for his goodness to them
4. the Levites didn't get any farm land so were dependent on the the tithe and other offerings for their food.
Highlights
- Israel to be marked out
- Isreal to celebrate God's goodness
Summary
- don't cut yourselves or make yourself bald for the dead because you are holy to God
- don't eat 'unclean' meat, fish or birds or animals that died naturally because you are holy to the Lord
- Gentiles could eat animals that have died
- don't boil a young goat in its mothers milk
- tithe from your crops and flock every year by taking it to the temple and eating it before the Lord, and rejoice
- share this with the Levites the fatherless and the widows
Questions and Observations
1. holy means separated, so these food laws symbbolised that the Israelites were God's chosen and were to be different to others as a resuly
2. Gentiles didn't have to comply with the food laws, so no need to worry.
3. this tithe was a response to God blessing them, and was a celebration where they could thank God for his goodness to them
4. the Levites didn't get any farm land so were dependent on the the tithe and other offerings for their food.
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Deuteronomy 15 text
Highlights
- look after the poor and needy
Summary
- at the end of 7 years relaese fellow Israelites from any debts they owe you. But don't release foreigners.
- there will be no poor in Israel.
- be generous to needy and poor Israelites - lend them sufficient for his need even if it is close to the time of release
- if you buy a Hebrew slave, free him after 6 years and send him away with generours gifts of food and drink
- but a slave can volunteer to remain permanently
- slaves were payed at half the rate of a normal worker
- unblemished first born of the herds/flocks were special to God, they were not to do any work, but they were to be a celebratory meal for the Israelites.
- don't eat blood
Questions and Observations
1. v4. "there will be no poor" and then v7,9,11 is about the poor. v4 is conditional on obedience
2. I think slavery in this case was similar to an indentured labourer, rather than the slavery of more recent times.
3. Don't forget to celebrate God's goodness
Highlights
- look after the poor and needy
Summary
- at the end of 7 years relaese fellow Israelites from any debts they owe you. But don't release foreigners.
- there will be no poor in Israel.
- be generous to needy and poor Israelites - lend them sufficient for his need even if it is close to the time of release
- if you buy a Hebrew slave, free him after 6 years and send him away with generours gifts of food and drink
- but a slave can volunteer to remain permanently
- slaves were payed at half the rate of a normal worker
- unblemished first born of the herds/flocks were special to God, they were not to do any work, but they were to be a celebratory meal for the Israelites.
- don't eat blood
Questions and Observations
1. v4. "there will be no poor" and then v7,9,11 is about the poor. v4 is conditional on obedience
2. I think slavery in this case was similar to an indentured labourer, rather than the slavery of more recent times.
3. Don't forget to celebrate God's goodness
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ttf_MoominDave
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
I've been very quiet lately, sorry about that. Just catching up now. Don't ask about the band contest; adjudicator on a different planet to the rest of us.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 14, 2016, 03:44PMDeuteronomy 6 text
2. v4 "The Lord our God is one Lord" is interesting because God is plural but is stated to be one. In the Hebrew OT it is used with singular forms of words when talking about The God but not when talking about other gods. Christians take this as referring to the trinitarian nature of God, but Jews don't.
What jumps to my mind is the apparent coalescence of various older local god concepts into the god concept of Judaism, which would have been taking place at this time.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 15, 2016, 08:45PMDeuteronomy 7 text
2. The concept of clean and unclean things that they have been practicing for the last 40 years is now applied to them and the nations. Stay separate from them. Their "uncleanness" will make you unclean too
A group is taught to regard those outside the group as too problematic to engage with. This is not going to end well.
On a separate thought, this isn't the first time we've seen the word "Asherim", but the Wiki link I've just posted above sparks a more detailed thought - Asherah was an important goddess in another locally competing pantheon, who may well have had a place in Israeli pantheons at that time.
From that article: "Between the 10th century BC and the beginning of their exile in 586 BC, polytheism was normal throughout Israel;it was only after the exile that worship of Yahweh alone became established, and possibly only as late as the time of the Maccabees (2nd century BC) that monotheism became universal among Jews. Some biblical scholars believe that Asherah at one time was worshipped as the consort of Yahweh, the national God of Israel. There are references to the worship of numerous gods throughout Kings, Solomon builds temples to many gods and Josiah is reported as cutting down the statues of Asherah in the temple Solomon built for Yahweh. Josiah's grandfather Manasseh had erected this statue."
It is certainly striking to contrast the thread that the narrative seeks to wind with the hints that exist in it - a tale ostensibly of how a group of people came to a religious position in fact also documents how even the central characters advocating that position sometimes tried other positions, e.g. Aaron. Also interesting to note that Jewish rulers yet to come in this history will be documented doing the same. Odd if they had it all centralised and then people later drifted away then back again. Odd but not impossible. Or maybe all this stuff reached its final written form in a later age, one keen to emphasise faithfulness to the one-God concept where it could in its historical record.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 16, 2016, 08:27PMHmmmm. I only really take that period (and maybe God choosing Abraham) as typical. But I forget why, just that I do. I'll have to work it out again.
Anything to do with Deuteronomy feeling like a summary of belief statement - a credo, if you like? "Here's the theological highlights of what we've covered so far". These first five books are the five that everybody has some knowledge about - they come first, they provide a narrative between them, and they can be taken as a single unit. I can see how one could intuitively from the structure of it all feel that these are a very important set describing a specially important time.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 20, 2016, 06:56PMDeuteronomy 10 text
1. v16 "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart" - this is obviously a metaphor, but I'm not sure what it meant to them.
"Never forget you're one of ours", at a guess. It's not a dignified metaphor! But then circumcision is not a dignified thing to make as a foundational stone of your identity. Funny how some seemingly arbitrary customs can survive many centuries - and this one would not have been medically the safest thing at that time.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 20, 2016, 07:10PMDeuteronomy 11 text
In reading this chapter of praise for the climate of where they're going, the "land of hills and valleys", the literary comparison that springs to mind is Watership Down, which could be quite easily argued to be a recasting of the Moses narrative into the migration of a group of rabbits. Thinking of where the comparisons tie up, it surprises me that I hadn't made the connection before - I've read Adams's book several times, at various ages. Hazel makes a compelling Moses figure, though is more sympathetically cast, and he does in the end lead them into their promised land.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 22, 2016, 01:34PMDeuteronomy 12 text
1. it seems that the names of gods were important, hence the instructions not to take God's name in vain, and to destroy the false gods names
As per the Wiki link at the top of this post, with their Yahweh concept taking on as it moved aspects of the various other gods around them, they would have been keen to suppress memories of these replaced god concepts - no theological room for two gods doing the same job.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 22, 2016, 01:49PMDeuteronomy 13 text
1. obviously these rules are cruel and barbaric if God doesn't exist and hadn't freed them from Egypt etc, but if he does exist and had rescued them from Egypt then he's entitled to claim loyalty. You may still think the rules are cruel and barbaric.
Also - presumably God caused the dreamers to dream false dreams. Then having used them as his tools to do the testing, he orders them executed. Ouch.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 25, 2016, 03:56PMDeuteronomy 15 text
- at the end of 7 years relaese fellow Israelites from any debts they owe you. But don't release foreigners.
This must have made for cycles of ease and difficulty of obtaining loans. Who under this system would be willing to make a loan in the final year before universal debt forgiveness?
Totally separate thing - I've been quietly maintaining the roster we originally started with, noting who's been summarising which chapters. No particular reason or intent, just to see how it turns out. I've colour-coded cells by summariser on it, and my recent slackness combined with Martin's industry has caused the breaking of a continuous strand of mucky yellowy-orange (peach?) Dave cells that extended all the way back into Genesis.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 14, 2016, 03:44PMDeuteronomy 6 text
2. v4 "The Lord our God is one Lord" is interesting because God is plural but is stated to be one. In the Hebrew OT it is used with singular forms of words when talking about The God but not when talking about other gods. Christians take this as referring to the trinitarian nature of God, but Jews don't.
What jumps to my mind is the apparent coalescence of various older local god concepts into the god concept of Judaism, which would have been taking place at this time.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 15, 2016, 08:45PMDeuteronomy 7 text
2. The concept of clean and unclean things that they have been practicing for the last 40 years is now applied to them and the nations. Stay separate from them. Their "uncleanness" will make you unclean too
A group is taught to regard those outside the group as too problematic to engage with. This is not going to end well.
On a separate thought, this isn't the first time we've seen the word "Asherim", but the Wiki link I've just posted above sparks a more detailed thought - Asherah was an important goddess in another locally competing pantheon, who may well have had a place in Israeli pantheons at that time.
From that article: "Between the 10th century BC and the beginning of their exile in 586 BC, polytheism was normal throughout Israel;it was only after the exile that worship of Yahweh alone became established, and possibly only as late as the time of the Maccabees (2nd century BC) that monotheism became universal among Jews. Some biblical scholars believe that Asherah at one time was worshipped as the consort of Yahweh, the national God of Israel. There are references to the worship of numerous gods throughout Kings, Solomon builds temples to many gods and Josiah is reported as cutting down the statues of Asherah in the temple Solomon built for Yahweh. Josiah's grandfather Manasseh had erected this statue."
It is certainly striking to contrast the thread that the narrative seeks to wind with the hints that exist in it - a tale ostensibly of how a group of people came to a religious position in fact also documents how even the central characters advocating that position sometimes tried other positions, e.g. Aaron. Also interesting to note that Jewish rulers yet to come in this history will be documented doing the same. Odd if they had it all centralised and then people later drifted away then back again. Odd but not impossible. Or maybe all this stuff reached its final written form in a later age, one keen to emphasise faithfulness to the one-God concept where it could in its historical record.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 16, 2016, 08:27PMHmmmm. I only really take that period (and maybe God choosing Abraham) as typical. But I forget why, just that I do.
I'll have to work it out again.Anything to do with Deuteronomy feeling like a summary of belief statement - a credo, if you like? "Here's the theological highlights of what we've covered so far". These first five books are the five that everybody has some knowledge about - they come first, they provide a narrative between them, and they can be taken as a single unit. I can see how one could intuitively from the structure of it all feel that these are a very important set describing a specially important time.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 20, 2016, 06:56PMDeuteronomy 10 text
1. v16 "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart" - this is obviously a metaphor, but I'm not sure what it meant to them.
"Never forget you're one of ours", at a guess. It's not a dignified metaphor! But then circumcision is not a dignified thing to make as a foundational stone of your identity. Funny how some seemingly arbitrary customs can survive many centuries - and this one would not have been medically the safest thing at that time.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 20, 2016, 07:10PMDeuteronomy 11 text
In reading this chapter of praise for the climate of where they're going, the "land of hills and valleys", the literary comparison that springs to mind is Watership Down, which could be quite easily argued to be a recasting of the Moses narrative into the migration of a group of rabbits. Thinking of where the comparisons tie up, it surprises me that I hadn't made the connection before - I've read Adams's book several times, at various ages. Hazel makes a compelling Moses figure, though is more sympathetically cast, and he does in the end lead them into their promised land.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 22, 2016, 01:34PMDeuteronomy 12 text
1. it seems that the names of gods were important, hence the instructions not to take God's name in vain, and to destroy the false gods names
As per the Wiki link at the top of this post, with their Yahweh concept taking on as it moved aspects of the various other gods around them, they would have been keen to suppress memories of these replaced god concepts - no theological room for two gods doing the same job.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 22, 2016, 01:49PMDeuteronomy 13 text
1. obviously these rules are cruel and barbaric if God doesn't exist and hadn't freed them from Egypt etc, but if he does exist and had rescued them from Egypt then he's entitled to claim loyalty. You may still think the rules are cruel and barbaric.
Also - presumably God caused the dreamers to dream false dreams. Then having used them as his tools to do the testing, he orders them executed. Ouch.
Quote from: drizabone on Mar 25, 2016, 03:56PMDeuteronomy 15 text
- at the end of 7 years relaese fellow Israelites from any debts they owe you. But don't release foreigners.
This must have made for cycles of ease and difficulty of obtaining loans. Who under this system would be willing to make a loan in the final year before universal debt forgiveness?
Totally separate thing - I've been quietly maintaining the roster we originally started with, noting who's been summarising which chapters. No particular reason or intent, just to see how it turns out. I've colour-coded cells by summariser on it, and my recent slackness combined with Martin's industry has caused the breaking of a continuous strand of mucky yellowy-orange (peach?) Dave cells that extended all the way back into Genesis.
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ttf_MoominDave
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Deuteronomy 16 text
Highlights
- Festival rule reminders and a couple of other items
Summary
- Passover rules reminder; date, food, actions
- Also, in the new land, do not celebrate Passover in the cities, but in special appointed places
- Feast of Weeks rules reminder; date, actions
- Feast of Booths rules reminder; timings, actions
- Institution of a legal system
- No trees or pillars by altars
Questions and Observations
1) Passover in the special places - the inference seems to be that they might expect to travel a long way to reach these? Tents, etc. Or not?
2) Bribes to judges not allowed. Good idea...
3) Again, Asherah makes an appearance: "You shall not plant any tree as an Asherah beside the altar of the Lord your God". It was apparently so common an idea to work Asherah-worship into Yahweh-worship that it had to be specifically outlawed. I suppose pillars and trees seem likely to be the same idea?
Highlights
- Festival rule reminders and a couple of other items
Summary
- Passover rules reminder; date, food, actions
- Also, in the new land, do not celebrate Passover in the cities, but in special appointed places
- Feast of Weeks rules reminder; date, actions
- Feast of Booths rules reminder; timings, actions
- Institution of a legal system
- No trees or pillars by altars
Questions and Observations
1) Passover in the special places - the inference seems to be that they might expect to travel a long way to reach these? Tents, etc. Or not?
2) Bribes to judges not allowed. Good idea...
3) Again, Asherah makes an appearance: "You shall not plant any tree as an Asherah beside the altar of the Lord your God". It was apparently so common an idea to work Asherah-worship into Yahweh-worship that it had to be specifically outlawed. I suppose pillars and trees seem likely to be the same idea?
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 26, 2016, 04:42AMI've been very quiet lately, sorry about that. Just catching up now. Don't ask about the band contest; adjudicator on a different planet to the rest of us.
So much for the motivaional posters about hard work getting you good results. I reckon you're going to sympathise with the philosophy in Ecclesiastes when we get there too.
QuoteThis must have made for cycles of ease and difficulty of obtaining loans. Who under this system would be willing to make a loan in the final year before universal debt forgiveness?
Hence the specific instructions to be generous at all times. Human nature would have reared its ugly head though.
QuoteTotally separate thing - I've been quietly maintaining the roster we originally started with, noting who's been summarising which chapters. No particular reason or intent, just to see how it turns out. I've colour-coded cells by summariser on it, and my recent slackness combined with Martin's industry has caused the breaking of a continuous strand of mucky yellowy-orange (peach?) Dave cells that extended all the way back into Genesis.
But you're still ahead so no need to feel as though you've let the team down.
So much for the motivaional posters about hard work getting you good results. I reckon you're going to sympathise with the philosophy in Ecclesiastes when we get there too.
QuoteThis must have made for cycles of ease and difficulty of obtaining loans. Who under this system would be willing to make a loan in the final year before universal debt forgiveness?
Hence the specific instructions to be generous at all times. Human nature would have reared its ugly head though.
QuoteTotally separate thing - I've been quietly maintaining the roster we originally started with, noting who's been summarising which chapters. No particular reason or intent, just to see how it turns out. I've colour-coded cells by summariser on it, and my recent slackness combined with Martin's industry has caused the breaking of a continuous strand of mucky yellowy-orange (peach?) Dave cells that extended all the way back into Genesis.
But you're still ahead so no need to feel as though you've let the team down.
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 26, 2016, 04:57AMDeuteronomy 16 text
Highlights
- Festival rule reminders and a couple of other items
Summary
- Passover rules reminder; date, food, actions
- Also, in the new land, do not celebrate Passover in the cities, but in special appointed places
just in the place
Quote - Feast of Weeks rules reminder; date, actions
- Feast of Booths rules reminder; timings, actions
Quote
- the "Feast of Weeks" is associated with the first fruits of the harvest and is called Pentecost in the NT (greek for 50 days).
- Jesus did a booths thing at the transfiguration
1) Passover in the special places - the inference seems to be that they might expect to travel a long way to reach these? Tents, etc. Or not?
yep. just imagine the whole country bringing there sacrifices into Jerusalem or whereever at the same time.
2) Bribes to judges not allowed. Good idea...
3) Again, Asherah makes an appearance: "You shall not plant any tree as an Asherah beside the altar of the Lord your God". It was apparently so common an idea to work Asherah-worship into Yahweh-worship that it had to be specifically outlawed. I suppose pillars and trees seem likely to be the same idea?
common or serious enough to require a specific rule.
Highlights
- Festival rule reminders and a couple of other items
Summary
- Passover rules reminder; date, food, actions
- Also, in the new land, do not celebrate Passover in the cities, but in special appointed places
just in the place
Quote - Feast of Weeks rules reminder; date, actions
- Feast of Booths rules reminder; timings, actions
Quote
- the "Feast of Weeks" is associated with the first fruits of the harvest and is called Pentecost in the NT (greek for 50 days).
- Jesus did a booths thing at the transfiguration
1) Passover in the special places - the inference seems to be that they might expect to travel a long way to reach these? Tents, etc. Or not?
yep. just imagine the whole country bringing there sacrifices into Jerusalem or whereever at the same time.
2) Bribes to judges not allowed. Good idea...
3) Again, Asherah makes an appearance: "You shall not plant any tree as an Asherah beside the altar of the Lord your God". It was apparently so common an idea to work Asherah-worship into Yahweh-worship that it had to be specifically outlawed. I suppose pillars and trees seem likely to be the same idea?
common or serious enough to require a specific rule.
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ttf_MoominDave
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 26, 2016, 05:16PMDo we know where this was?
I'm pretty sure it was where the ark was kept, ie Bethel, Shiloh and then ultimately Jerusalem, but I'm not sure when the rule was started, we'll find out I expect.
(So "the place" changed over time, but was only one place at a time)
I'm pretty sure it was where the ark was kept, ie Bethel, Shiloh and then ultimately Jerusalem, but I'm not sure when the rule was started, we'll find out I expect.
(So "the place" changed over time, but was only one place at a time)
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Deuteronomy 17 text
Highlights
- Some more rules.
Summary
- don't sacrifice anything to the Lord with a blemish
- make sure you punish anyone who serves other gods
- go to the priests in the Place of Worship to have dificult legal cases decided
- anyone who goes against his decision shall be put to death
- Rules for the King: not too many wives or horses, and he gets his own copy of the Law to guide him.
Questions and Observations
1. Do what the priest says or else. Lots of room for abuse.
2. 2 witnesses accusing a person of false worship is enough for the death penalty. Lots of room for abuse too.
3. a "prediction" that they will want a king.
Highlights
- Some more rules.
Summary
- don't sacrifice anything to the Lord with a blemish
- make sure you punish anyone who serves other gods
- go to the priests in the Place of Worship to have dificult legal cases decided
- anyone who goes against his decision shall be put to death
- Rules for the King: not too many wives or horses, and he gets his own copy of the Law to guide him.
Questions and Observations
1. Do what the priest says or else. Lots of room for abuse.
2. 2 witnesses accusing a person of false worship is enough for the death penalty. Lots of room for abuse too.
3. a "prediction" that they will want a king.
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ttf_MoominDave
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Deuteronomy 18 text
Highlights
- Help Levites as mandated
- Some banned things
- Succession of power
Summary
- Reminder of the duties of the populace to support the priest class of Levites with gifts
- Banned: sacrifice of one's children, divination, fortune-telling, interpreting omens, sorcery, charming, mediums, necromancy, "one who inquires of the dead". It is underlined that these are the vices of the neighbouring nations that they are to drive out.
- A new prophet is foretold
Questions and Observations
1) This is all getting quite repetitive. I don't think we've read anything yet in Deuteronomy that wasn't already mentioned in one or the other of the previous three books. So what is the purpose of retaining Deuteronomy in the canon?
2) What is the difference between a necromancer and "one who inquires of the dead"? They're listed separately, but mean the same thing in English.
3) Moloch was apparently still popular...
4) What is meant by a "charmer"? I'm imagining someone selling objects held to be good luck.
5) Only the approved mystic routes may be accessed. It's okay for Moses to tell them that God talks to him and instruct them on that basis, but they don't want anyone else listening in to other broadcasts on the radio frequencies.
6) The new prophet is presumably Joshua, Moses's previously designated successor?
Highlights
- Help Levites as mandated
- Some banned things
- Succession of power
Summary
- Reminder of the duties of the populace to support the priest class of Levites with gifts
- Banned: sacrifice of one's children, divination, fortune-telling, interpreting omens, sorcery, charming, mediums, necromancy, "one who inquires of the dead". It is underlined that these are the vices of the neighbouring nations that they are to drive out.
- A new prophet is foretold
Questions and Observations
1) This is all getting quite repetitive. I don't think we've read anything yet in Deuteronomy that wasn't already mentioned in one or the other of the previous three books. So what is the purpose of retaining Deuteronomy in the canon?
2) What is the difference between a necromancer and "one who inquires of the dead"? They're listed separately, but mean the same thing in English.
3) Moloch was apparently still popular...
4) What is meant by a "charmer"? I'm imagining someone selling objects held to be good luck.
5) Only the approved mystic routes may be accessed. It's okay for Moses to tell them that God talks to him and instruct them on that basis, but they don't want anyone else listening in to other broadcasts on the radio frequencies.
6) The new prophet is presumably Joshua, Moses's previously designated successor?