Yes, a good note - it's very easy to forget quite how different the eyes were that were looking at this stuff. It's a massive stretch to put oneself into the mind of say an 18th century person - let alone say a Mediaeval - and by orders of magnitude again trickier to fully understand the far distant writers of this stuff.
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ttf_MoominDave
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 19, 2016, 05:10AMYes, a good note - it's very easy to forget quite how different the eyes were that were looking at this stuff. It's a massive stretch to put oneself into the mind of say an 18th century person - let alone say a Mediaeval - and by orders of magnitude again trickier to fully understand the far distant writers of this stuff.
Probably the main reason the inconsistencies and flat out depravity in the Bible, especially the OT, doesn't pose any real problems for rational believers who aren't always trying to beatify the book and turn it into some kind of virginal demigodish/talismanish kind of bizarre magical type thing, like they also tend to do with the Constitution here in the US (mostly meaning literalists and probably (maybe?) most inerrantists).
Probably the main reason the inconsistencies and flat out depravity in the Bible, especially the OT, doesn't pose any real problems for rational believers who aren't always trying to beatify the book and turn it into some kind of virginal demigodish/talismanish kind of bizarre magical type thing, like they also tend to do with the Constitution here in the US (mostly meaning literalists and probably (maybe?) most inerrantists).
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ttf_drizabone
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1 Samuel 17 text
Highlights
- David the Giant Killer
Summary
- The Philistines and the Israelites prepare for more battle.
- Before the fight, the Philistine champion, Goliath, steps forward and challenges Israel to a man on man fight. Your champion beats me, Israel in, otherwise the Philistines win.
- Goliath is big, either 4 cubits and a span or 6 cubits and a span and had big heavy armour and weapons.
- Goliath repeats his challenge for 40 days. The Israelite soldiers are too scared to take it up.
- David brings some food for his brothers, and hears the challenge. He is offended that a Philistine can defy the army of Israel and God. His brothers tell him to stop dreaming and to stay out or real men's business. Other soldiers explain that whoever defeats Goliath will be richly rewarded.
- David talks to Saul who tells him there is no way he can stand against Goliath. David tells Saul how he kills bears and lions to protect his sheep and he'll do the same to Goliath. Saul says ok and gives David his own armour and weapons. David declines them because he isn't used to them and instead takes his trusty shepherds crook, his sling and 5 smooth stones.
- When David goes out to meet Goliath, the giant thinks it's a joke. They exchange some trash talk, with Goliath saying, "I'll feed your corpse to the birds and beasts!"
- David responds with a "oh yeah? Well The Lord is going to bive you to me and I'm going to chop off your head! and this day everyone will know that there is a God in Israel who saves" kind of thing, which enrages Goliath so much, he removes his helmet, drops his shield and charges at David.
- David runs quickly forward grabs a stone and slings it at Goliath and kills him. He takes out Goliath's sword and cuts off his head.
- The Philistines panic and run away in disaray, followed by the Israelites who attack and plunder them.
- David takes Goliath's head back to Jerusalem and put his armour in his tent.
- Saul wants to know who's son David is. Abner, Saul's general doen't know, and they ask David
Questions and Observations
1) Goliath's height. There's a couple of issues here:
- some translations have 4 cubit others have 6. Which one was in the original?
- How long was a cubit. Wikipedia say "The cubit is an ancient unit based on the forearm length from the middle finger tip to the elbow bottom. Cubits of various lengths were employed in many parts of the world in antiquity, during the Middle Ages and as recently as Early Modern Times"
- Goliaths height could have been from 6'7" to over 9'.
- Saul was taller than everyone else so he was probably well over 6'. So for Goliath to be a giant, would mean he was significantly taller.
- The tallest man known with verified height was Robert Wadlow at 8'11. He was still growing when he died in his 20's. He was very strong too. We know this is true because its in Wikipedia
.
- The current tallest man is 8'2". Same truth checks as above.
- So over 9' is extraordinary but not impossible.
2) It sounds like 40 days is Hebrew code for a long time.
3) Symbolism of challenge: David represents the good guys and Goliath the bad. The writer see's this challenge as a proxy for God's saving of Israel v45 ... Christian's see it as symbolic of the way that Jesus defeats Satan, and so earns us victory by proxy.
4) David must have had a big tent if it was big enough for Goliath's armour. Nice souvenir.
Highlights
- David the Giant Killer
Summary
- The Philistines and the Israelites prepare for more battle.
- Before the fight, the Philistine champion, Goliath, steps forward and challenges Israel to a man on man fight. Your champion beats me, Israel in, otherwise the Philistines win.
- Goliath is big, either 4 cubits and a span or 6 cubits and a span and had big heavy armour and weapons.
- Goliath repeats his challenge for 40 days. The Israelite soldiers are too scared to take it up.
- David brings some food for his brothers, and hears the challenge. He is offended that a Philistine can defy the army of Israel and God. His brothers tell him to stop dreaming and to stay out or real men's business. Other soldiers explain that whoever defeats Goliath will be richly rewarded.
- David talks to Saul who tells him there is no way he can stand against Goliath. David tells Saul how he kills bears and lions to protect his sheep and he'll do the same to Goliath. Saul says ok and gives David his own armour and weapons. David declines them because he isn't used to them and instead takes his trusty shepherds crook, his sling and 5 smooth stones.
- When David goes out to meet Goliath, the giant thinks it's a joke. They exchange some trash talk, with Goliath saying, "I'll feed your corpse to the birds and beasts!"
- David responds with a "oh yeah? Well The Lord is going to bive you to me and I'm going to chop off your head! and this day everyone will know that there is a God in Israel who saves" kind of thing, which enrages Goliath so much, he removes his helmet, drops his shield and charges at David.
- David runs quickly forward grabs a stone and slings it at Goliath and kills him. He takes out Goliath's sword and cuts off his head.
- The Philistines panic and run away in disaray, followed by the Israelites who attack and plunder them.
- David takes Goliath's head back to Jerusalem and put his armour in his tent.
- Saul wants to know who's son David is. Abner, Saul's general doen't know, and they ask David
Questions and Observations
1) Goliath's height. There's a couple of issues here:
- some translations have 4 cubit others have 6. Which one was in the original?
- How long was a cubit. Wikipedia say "The cubit is an ancient unit based on the forearm length from the middle finger tip to the elbow bottom. Cubits of various lengths were employed in many parts of the world in antiquity, during the Middle Ages and as recently as Early Modern Times"
- Goliaths height could have been from 6'7" to over 9'.
- Saul was taller than everyone else so he was probably well over 6'. So for Goliath to be a giant, would mean he was significantly taller.
- The tallest man known with verified height was Robert Wadlow at 8'11. He was still growing when he died in his 20's. He was very strong too. We know this is true because its in Wikipedia
.- The current tallest man is 8'2". Same truth checks as above.
- So over 9' is extraordinary but not impossible.
2) It sounds like 40 days is Hebrew code for a long time.
3) Symbolism of challenge: David represents the good guys and Goliath the bad. The writer see's this challenge as a proxy for God's saving of Israel v45 ... Christian's see it as symbolic of the way that Jesus defeats Satan, and so earns us victory by proxy.
4) David must have had a big tent if it was big enough for Goliath's armour. Nice souvenir.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Quote from: drizabone on May 19, 2016, 02:55PM
Questions and Observations
1) Goliath's height. There's a couple of issues here:
- some translations have 4 cubit others have 6. Which one was in the original?
- How long was a cubit. Wikipedia say "The cubit is an ancient unit based on the forearm length from the middle finger tip to the elbow bottom. Cubits of various lengths were employed in many parts of the world in antiquity, during the Middle Ages and as recently as Early Modern Times"
- Goliaths height could have been from 6'7" to over 9'.
My rationalization has always been that people were small back then so their cubit was small.
Has there been any archaeological study of people's sizes in that time and that area from dug up bones?
This page says excavated houses indicate the average Israelite was only 5 feet tall.
That would make a six cubit man about 7.5 feet tall.
Questions and Observations
1) Goliath's height. There's a couple of issues here:
- some translations have 4 cubit others have 6. Which one was in the original?
- How long was a cubit. Wikipedia say "The cubit is an ancient unit based on the forearm length from the middle finger tip to the elbow bottom. Cubits of various lengths were employed in many parts of the world in antiquity, during the Middle Ages and as recently as Early Modern Times"
- Goliaths height could have been from 6'7" to over 9'.
My rationalization has always been that people were small back then so their cubit was small.
Has there been any archaeological study of people's sizes in that time and that area from dug up bones?
This page says excavated houses indicate the average Israelite was only 5 feet tall.
That would make a six cubit man about 7.5 feet tall.
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ttf_drizabone
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That adds a bit of context to the height comparison that I didn't think of
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ttf_drizabone
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1 Samuel 18 text
Highlights
- Everyone loves David : Saul is jealous.
Summary
- Jonathon and David become BFF's. David wins favour with everyone for his exploits
- But Saul is jealous that people think David is better than he is, and trys to kill him.
- Saul gets David out of the way by making him a commander and sending him off to fight the Philistines. But David kills lots of Philistines and becomes even more popular.
- Saul tries to marry David off to his eldest daughter and get him killed by the Philistines but David thinks he's not worthy of marrying the kings daughter.
- Saul's youngest daughter Michal, loved David so Saul tried to talk him into marrying her. He told him the Bride price was only 100 Philistine foreskins. David accepts and brings Saul 200 foreskins.
- Everyone loves David, and God is with him, so Saul gets more jealous, and was afraid of David and was his continual enemy. David just kills more Philistines and the people esteem him more.
Questions and Observations
1) Why does Saul think that having David marry the his daughter will lead to the Philistines killing him?
2) David is so romantic, bringing twice as many foreskins as he needed too, for Michal. She would have been impressed.
3) More chronological messiness :
- the last chapter has David taking the head to Jerusalem, and Saul asking him who his Dad was.
- This chapter starts with Jonathan becoming his BFF as soon as he had finished speaking and then coming Jerusalem after killing "the Philistine" (Goliath?)
Highlights
- Everyone loves David : Saul is jealous.
Summary
- Jonathon and David become BFF's. David wins favour with everyone for his exploits
- But Saul is jealous that people think David is better than he is, and trys to kill him.
- Saul gets David out of the way by making him a commander and sending him off to fight the Philistines. But David kills lots of Philistines and becomes even more popular.
- Saul tries to marry David off to his eldest daughter and get him killed by the Philistines but David thinks he's not worthy of marrying the kings daughter.
- Saul's youngest daughter Michal, loved David so Saul tried to talk him into marrying her. He told him the Bride price was only 100 Philistine foreskins. David accepts and brings Saul 200 foreskins.
- Everyone loves David, and God is with him, so Saul gets more jealous, and was afraid of David and was his continual enemy. David just kills more Philistines and the people esteem him more.
Questions and Observations
1) Why does Saul think that having David marry the his daughter will lead to the Philistines killing him?
2) David is so romantic, bringing twice as many foreskins as he needed too, for Michal. She would have been impressed.
3) More chronological messiness :
- the last chapter has David taking the head to Jerusalem, and Saul asking him who his Dad was.
- This chapter starts with Jonathan becoming his BFF as soon as he had finished speaking and then coming Jerusalem after killing "the Philistine" (Goliath?)
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on May 19, 2016, 02:55PM1) Goliath's height. There's a couple of issues here:
- some translations have 4 cubit others have 6. Which one was in the original?
- How long was a cubit. Wikipedia say "The cubit is an ancient unit based on the forearm length from the middle finger tip to the elbow bottom. Cubits of various lengths were employed in many parts of the world in antiquity, during the Middle Ages and as recently as Early Modern Times"
- Goliaths height could have been from 6'7" to over 9'.
- Saul was taller than everyone else so he was probably well over 6'. So for Goliath to be a giant, would mean he was significantly taller.
- The tallest man known with verified height was Robert Wadlow at 8'11. He was still growing when he died in his 20's. He was very strong too. We know this is true because its in Wikipedia.
- The current tallest man is 8'2". Same truth checks as above.
- So over 9' is extraordinary but not impossible.
It is rare even with modern medicine for those that reach extreme heights to do so in robust good health. Sure, Wadlow was a powerful man in order to be able to function at all at that size, but he died at the age of 22 from an infected ankle due to a badly-fitting leg brace, which he required to be able to walk. And most of the few others that have topped 8' (only 19 confirmed in total) have been even worse off physically while alive. Extreme giants are not people that live long lives, which is why in the West we tend these days to identify them young and medically work to hold their growth back.
But given how many more people there are in the world these days than there were then - and how many more were alive in the era in the West before we worked out how to keep giants from dangerous levels of growth - it becomes astoundingly statistically unlikely that Goliath was 9'6" tall. That would exceed the modern record by a distance - and for someone in such good health in such a medically primitive era that they were able to act as a battle champion? Never say never, but it's pretty clear to me that this is another case of Biblical exaggeration of the numbers. Sure there have been enormously tall natural strongmen in the past, people such as Angus MacAskill or Mills Darden, but what is being proposed here is as much taller again that these most extreme outliers than they are than us...
We also note that it is known to be very common for heights to be claimed for the very tall that are substantial exaggerations - it is accepted common practice for people like circus promoters to add sometimes quite a lot of height to the actual measurement when billing - a 7'+ person is extremely physically imposing, so who's to say without a measuring tape that they aren't 8'+ or even more? Like human longevity, this is a category of human classification that it is often hard to see the truth of for the outlandish claims.
- some translations have 4 cubit others have 6. Which one was in the original?
- How long was a cubit. Wikipedia say "The cubit is an ancient unit based on the forearm length from the middle finger tip to the elbow bottom. Cubits of various lengths were employed in many parts of the world in antiquity, during the Middle Ages and as recently as Early Modern Times"
- Goliaths height could have been from 6'7" to over 9'.
- Saul was taller than everyone else so he was probably well over 6'. So for Goliath to be a giant, would mean he was significantly taller.
- The tallest man known with verified height was Robert Wadlow at 8'11. He was still growing when he died in his 20's. He was very strong too. We know this is true because its in Wikipedia
.- The current tallest man is 8'2". Same truth checks as above.
- So over 9' is extraordinary but not impossible.
It is rare even with modern medicine for those that reach extreme heights to do so in robust good health. Sure, Wadlow was a powerful man in order to be able to function at all at that size, but he died at the age of 22 from an infected ankle due to a badly-fitting leg brace, which he required to be able to walk. And most of the few others that have topped 8' (only 19 confirmed in total) have been even worse off physically while alive. Extreme giants are not people that live long lives, which is why in the West we tend these days to identify them young and medically work to hold their growth back.
But given how many more people there are in the world these days than there were then - and how many more were alive in the era in the West before we worked out how to keep giants from dangerous levels of growth - it becomes astoundingly statistically unlikely that Goliath was 9'6" tall. That would exceed the modern record by a distance - and for someone in such good health in such a medically primitive era that they were able to act as a battle champion? Never say never, but it's pretty clear to me that this is another case of Biblical exaggeration of the numbers. Sure there have been enormously tall natural strongmen in the past, people such as Angus MacAskill or Mills Darden, but what is being proposed here is as much taller again that these most extreme outliers than they are than us...
We also note that it is known to be very common for heights to be claimed for the very tall that are substantial exaggerations - it is accepted common practice for people like circus promoters to add sometimes quite a lot of height to the actual measurement when billing - a 7'+ person is extremely physically imposing, so who's to say without a measuring tape that they aren't 8'+ or even more? Like human longevity, this is a category of human classification that it is often hard to see the truth of for the outlandish claims.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on May 20, 2016, 05:08PM - Jonathon and David become BFF's. David wins favour with everyone for his exploits
The story of David and Jonathan is an intriguing one, although we do have to skip ahead a little from here to precis it. Here for example is a telling of the Biblical case for considering that their love for each other was something rather more than just the "BFF" that is what most keen Biblical readers are comfortable with going to. David laments Jonathan when he dies as "Greatly beloved were you to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." (2 Samuel 1); at their parting they kiss and weep (1 Samuel 20); Saul explicitly condemns Jonathan in language referencing sexual shame on the subject: "You son of a perverse, rebellious woman! Do I not know that you have chosen [David] the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of your mothers nakedness?" (1 Samuel 20 again); and we have the strangely intense first encounter of these two men in the current chapter, rippling with homoerotic over- and under-tones.
While the Bible doesn't explicitly tell us the details of their love life, these are some pretty heavy hints. Were it describing interactions between a woman and a man in identical terms, we would not hesitate to assume that the relationship was sexual. This casts a much more heartening light on the Biblical attitude to homosexuality - despite the proscription of Leviticus, we see one of the greatest figures of Biblical history seeming to be engaged in a homosexual romance, and one described without judgement on the part of the author, at that - though Saul is very down on it, and this dooms it. It is given straight (excuse the pun), and that is most heartening of all.
Those modern-day intolerants that use Leviticus as a rod to beat homosexuals with would do well to reflect on these events from the Books of Samuel. The Old Testament is not as down on gay love as they imagine.
The story of David and Jonathan is an intriguing one, although we do have to skip ahead a little from here to precis it. Here for example is a telling of the Biblical case for considering that their love for each other was something rather more than just the "BFF" that is what most keen Biblical readers are comfortable with going to. David laments Jonathan when he dies as "Greatly beloved were you to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." (2 Samuel 1); at their parting they kiss and weep (1 Samuel 20); Saul explicitly condemns Jonathan in language referencing sexual shame on the subject: "You son of a perverse, rebellious woman! Do I not know that you have chosen [David] the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of your mothers nakedness?" (1 Samuel 20 again); and we have the strangely intense first encounter of these two men in the current chapter, rippling with homoerotic over- and under-tones.
While the Bible doesn't explicitly tell us the details of their love life, these are some pretty heavy hints. Were it describing interactions between a woman and a man in identical terms, we would not hesitate to assume that the relationship was sexual. This casts a much more heartening light on the Biblical attitude to homosexuality - despite the proscription of Leviticus, we see one of the greatest figures of Biblical history seeming to be engaged in a homosexual romance, and one described without judgement on the part of the author, at that - though Saul is very down on it, and this dooms it. It is given straight (excuse the pun), and that is most heartening of all.
Those modern-day intolerants that use Leviticus as a rod to beat homosexuals with would do well to reflect on these events from the Books of Samuel. The Old Testament is not as down on gay love as they imagine.
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ttf_MoominDave
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1 Samuel 19 text
Highlights
- Saul moves against David
Summary
- Saul briefs his inner circle to kill David.
- But this includes Jonathan, who warns David, and then pleads on David's behalf to Saul.
- Saul mellows, resolving not to kill him after all.
- Jonathan reports this to David, and reconciles him with Saul.
- David defeats more Philistines.
- Saul, possessed by a "harmful spirit from the Lord", attacks David with a spear as he plays the lyre.
- Saul sets watchers overnight on David's house that he may kill him in the morning, but Michal persuades David to flee, replacing him in his bed with a fake David made out of an image and goats' hair.
- Saul demands David's attendance, but Michal replies that he is sick. Saul has the sick-bed brought to him, and the deception is uncovered.
- David flees to Ramah, where he collects Samuel; the two of them go to live in Naioth.
- Saul three times sends messengers to Naioth, but each time they are 'overcome with prophecy' - they start babbling with Yahweh's voice, which presumably stops them from fulfilling their mission.
- Saul himself comes, but the same thing happens.
Questions and Observations
1) vv9-10: " Then a harmful spirit from the Lord came upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand. And David was playing the lyre. And Saul sought to pin David to the wall with the spear, but he eluded Saul, so that he struck the spear into the wall." What is Yahweh doing purveying "harmful spirits"?
2) Jonathan was evidently not the only person there with strong affection for David - Michal (his wife, after all) risks herself on his behalf.
Highlights
- Saul moves against David
Summary
- Saul briefs his inner circle to kill David.
- But this includes Jonathan, who warns David, and then pleads on David's behalf to Saul.
- Saul mellows, resolving not to kill him after all.
- Jonathan reports this to David, and reconciles him with Saul.
- David defeats more Philistines.
- Saul, possessed by a "harmful spirit from the Lord", attacks David with a spear as he plays the lyre.
- Saul sets watchers overnight on David's house that he may kill him in the morning, but Michal persuades David to flee, replacing him in his bed with a fake David made out of an image and goats' hair.
- Saul demands David's attendance, but Michal replies that he is sick. Saul has the sick-bed brought to him, and the deception is uncovered.
- David flees to Ramah, where he collects Samuel; the two of them go to live in Naioth.
- Saul three times sends messengers to Naioth, but each time they are 'overcome with prophecy' - they start babbling with Yahweh's voice, which presumably stops them from fulfilling their mission.
- Saul himself comes, but the same thing happens.
Questions and Observations
1) vv9-10: " Then a harmful spirit from the Lord came upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand. And David was playing the lyre. And Saul sought to pin David to the wall with the spear, but he eluded Saul, so that he struck the spear into the wall." What is Yahweh doing purveying "harmful spirits"?
2) Jonathan was evidently not the only person there with strong affection for David - Michal (his wife, after all) risks herself on his behalf.
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ttf_MoominDave
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1 Samuel 20 text
Highlights
- It becomes clear to Jonathan and David that Saul still intends to kill David, and Jonathan and David part
Summary
- David comes to see Jonathan, asking what Saul has against him.
- Jonathan seeks to reassure him that Saul is not against him, saying that he would know if there was a plot.
- David counters that Jonathan may not be as favoured by Saul as he thinks he is.
- There is a feast at which Saul and David are both due to attend. David and Jonathan agree a plan - a religious excuse will be made for David to be absent, and Saul's reaction will determine their knowledge of his view of him.
- They agree a message system - in the event of a bad answer from Saul, Jonathan will shoot his arrows in a particular way during his regular target practice.
- Saul initially assumes that David is staying away due to uncleanness, but then asks where he is. Jonathan gives him the arranged answer.
- Saul is angry, and tells Jonathan that he is well aware that they are in contact, cursing him in explicitly sexual terms, then throwing a spear at him.
- Having obtained one of the most possibly bad of bad answers, Jonathan's arrows tell David this news.
- Jonathan and David part with great sorrow, kissing and weeping, vowing eternal connection in separation.
Questions and Observations
1) The message system seems quite convoluted - but I suppose the arrow-collecting boy can act as an alibi if Jonathan is questioned on the subject. But then they meet up anyway.
2) Saul's choice of words to Jonathan regarding his relationship with David is interesting, as noted a couple of posts above: "You son of a perverse, rebellious woman, do I not know that you have chosen the son of Jesse to your own shame, and to the shame of your mother's nakedness?". It is hard not to read this as Saul's condemnation of their sexual love - firstly, it references his mother's apparently "perverse" nature, and then it connects his choice of David to "your mother's nakedness", a term that explicitly references sexual dealings when it is given in Leviticus 18.
3) And likewise, Jonathan and David's moving parting scene is hard not to read in the same manner - they kiss, they weep, they vow eternal connection via Yahweh and their descendants. A man and a woman doing so we would not hesitate to consider lovers. While (or possibly because) it is true that times change and that fashions of types of human love vary hugely, it seems quite a stretch to definitely claim that there was nothing sexual going on here.
4) This all makes me wonder - was a large part of Saul's anger with David over his relationship with Jonathan rather than over his popularity?
Highlights
- It becomes clear to Jonathan and David that Saul still intends to kill David, and Jonathan and David part
Summary
- David comes to see Jonathan, asking what Saul has against him.
- Jonathan seeks to reassure him that Saul is not against him, saying that he would know if there was a plot.
- David counters that Jonathan may not be as favoured by Saul as he thinks he is.
- There is a feast at which Saul and David are both due to attend. David and Jonathan agree a plan - a religious excuse will be made for David to be absent, and Saul's reaction will determine their knowledge of his view of him.
- They agree a message system - in the event of a bad answer from Saul, Jonathan will shoot his arrows in a particular way during his regular target practice.
- Saul initially assumes that David is staying away due to uncleanness, but then asks where he is. Jonathan gives him the arranged answer.
- Saul is angry, and tells Jonathan that he is well aware that they are in contact, cursing him in explicitly sexual terms, then throwing a spear at him.
- Having obtained one of the most possibly bad of bad answers, Jonathan's arrows tell David this news.
- Jonathan and David part with great sorrow, kissing and weeping, vowing eternal connection in separation.
Questions and Observations
1) The message system seems quite convoluted - but I suppose the arrow-collecting boy can act as an alibi if Jonathan is questioned on the subject. But then they meet up anyway.
2) Saul's choice of words to Jonathan regarding his relationship with David is interesting, as noted a couple of posts above: "You son of a perverse, rebellious woman, do I not know that you have chosen the son of Jesse to your own shame, and to the shame of your mother's nakedness?". It is hard not to read this as Saul's condemnation of their sexual love - firstly, it references his mother's apparently "perverse" nature, and then it connects his choice of David to "your mother's nakedness", a term that explicitly references sexual dealings when it is given in Leviticus 18.
3) And likewise, Jonathan and David's moving parting scene is hard not to read in the same manner - they kiss, they weep, they vow eternal connection via Yahweh and their descendants. A man and a woman doing so we would not hesitate to consider lovers. While (or possibly because) it is true that times change and that fashions of types of human love vary hugely, it seems quite a stretch to definitely claim that there was nothing sexual going on here.
4) This all makes me wonder - was a large part of Saul's anger with David over his relationship with Jonathan rather than over his popularity?
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 22, 2016, 03:02AM2) Saul's choice of words to Jonathan regarding his relationship with David is interesting, as noted a couple of posts above: "You son of a perverse, rebellious woman, do I not know that you have chosen the son of Jesse to your own shame, and to the shame of your mother's nakedness?". It is hard not to read this as Saul's condemnation of their sexual love - firstly, it references his mother's apparently "perverse" nature, and then it connects his choice of David to "your mother's nakedness", a term that explicitly references sexual dealings when it is given in Leviticus 18.
There could be another layer here, if in fact it is a sexual love, which I agree can be supported by the choice of descriptions. What if Saul is angry not because he is offended by the outrage, but simply jealous because David is reserved for him? Remember the petite David is described in terms of feminine beauty (ruddy, comely, etc) from the beginning, and immediately makes an impression on Saul, and is the only one who can calm Saul in his rages. I'm not saying I'm sure of this but it certainly is suggestive.
There could be another layer here, if in fact it is a sexual love, which I agree can be supported by the choice of descriptions. What if Saul is angry not because he is offended by the outrage, but simply jealous because David is reserved for him? Remember the petite David is described in terms of feminine beauty (ruddy, comely, etc) from the beginning, and immediately makes an impression on Saul, and is the only one who can calm Saul in his rages. I'm not saying I'm sure of this but it certainly is suggestive.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 22, 2016, 02:21AMThe story of David and Jonathan is an intriguing one, although we do have to skip ahead a little from here to precis it. Here for example is a telling of the Biblical case for considering that their love for each other was something rather more than just the "BFF" that is what most keen Biblical readers are comfortable with going to.
I disagree. I don't see any reason that the text is equating David and Jonathon's love to a homosexual relationship.
Four times in chapter 18 we read that people loved David.
18:1 Jonathon loved him as his own soul
18:16 all Israel loved David
18:20 Michal loved David
18:22 all Saul's servants love David
Its obvious that this word love doesn't necessarily mean homosexual love or even sexual love. But whatever it is the writer is telling us that everyone loves David. Michal probably had the hots for David but its not what the author is saying of all Israel or of Saul's servants.
So we need to do some work to claim we know what it means in each case. Claiming that Hollywood would make it one of the greatest (romantic) love stories of all time doesn't make it true. And just because today we think that love between 2 guys = a gay relationship doesn't make it true either. Claiming the bible is hinting at it doesn't convince me either.
To me we have already had explicit instruction in Leviticus that homosexual practices were wrong. So I would see that statement as setting the standard for normal behaviour for bible characters, and would expect that it would take an explicit statement to think that they were behaving differently to that.
We read that Jonathon loved David as his own soul.
If I can mention Leviticus without using it as a rod to beat anyone, Lev 19:18 has similar language to 1 Sam 18:1 where it says "you shall love your neighbour as yourself". Saying yourself is pretty much the same as saying your soul : self = soul. The Hebrew word for soul means a person, as a living breathing being focussing on the senses. So I see the writer as saying that Jonathon had a strong love for David, but there's no explicit reason to associate that with homosexual attraction. Just because our culture would jump to that conclusion doesn't mean that it would be the same in another culture.
Then we read that Jonathon stripped off his cloak and gave it and his armor to David. The author of your "biblical case" notes that the "cloak and armor pf a prince were symbols of his power and status" but then doesn't consider the implications of what the gift of these symbols mean: its just the greatest Holywood love story. I would think that transferring symbols of state power would more likely have a political purpose that a romantic one.
QuoteDavid laments Jonathan when he dies as "Greatly beloved were you to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." (2 Samuel 1); at their parting they kiss and weep (1 Samuel 20); Saul explicitly condemns Jonathan in language referencing sexual shame on the subject: "You son of a perverse, rebellious woman! Do I not know that you have chosen [David] the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of your mothers nakedness?" (1 Samuel 20 again);
Wasn't there a scene in Band of Brothers where they said that there love for each other was stronger than the love of a woman? Even if it wasn't 2 Sam 1 doesn't automatically mean a reference to homosexual love. Sure its emotive language. But that's David's style, he's emotional and feels strongly. v23 has Saul and Jonathon beloved and lovely. David loved Jonathon, but he tells us its as his "brother".
You say that Saul condemns Jonathon using language referencing sexual shame. I grant that, but not that it was a reference to homosexuality. I can't see anything explicit in that statement to link it to a homosexual relationship between Jonathon and David.
So I think the ripples of homoerotic over- and under-tones are more in the way our culture reads into texts than the way the texts have been read for the last 3000 years.
I disagree. I don't see any reason that the text is equating David and Jonathon's love to a homosexual relationship.
Four times in chapter 18 we read that people loved David.
18:1 Jonathon loved him as his own soul
18:16 all Israel loved David
18:20 Michal loved David
18:22 all Saul's servants love David
Its obvious that this word love doesn't necessarily mean homosexual love or even sexual love. But whatever it is the writer is telling us that everyone loves David. Michal probably had the hots for David but its not what the author is saying of all Israel or of Saul's servants.
So we need to do some work to claim we know what it means in each case. Claiming that Hollywood would make it one of the greatest (romantic) love stories of all time doesn't make it true. And just because today we think that love between 2 guys = a gay relationship doesn't make it true either. Claiming the bible is hinting at it doesn't convince me either.
To me we have already had explicit instruction in Leviticus that homosexual practices were wrong. So I would see that statement as setting the standard for normal behaviour for bible characters, and would expect that it would take an explicit statement to think that they were behaving differently to that.
We read that Jonathon loved David as his own soul.
If I can mention Leviticus without using it as a rod to beat anyone, Lev 19:18 has similar language to 1 Sam 18:1 where it says "you shall love your neighbour as yourself". Saying yourself is pretty much the same as saying your soul : self = soul. The Hebrew word for soul means a person, as a living breathing being focussing on the senses. So I see the writer as saying that Jonathon had a strong love for David, but there's no explicit reason to associate that with homosexual attraction. Just because our culture would jump to that conclusion doesn't mean that it would be the same in another culture.
Then we read that Jonathon stripped off his cloak and gave it and his armor to David. The author of your "biblical case" notes that the "cloak and armor pf a prince were symbols of his power and status" but then doesn't consider the implications of what the gift of these symbols mean: its just the greatest Holywood love story. I would think that transferring symbols of state power would more likely have a political purpose that a romantic one.
QuoteDavid laments Jonathan when he dies as "Greatly beloved were you to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." (2 Samuel 1); at their parting they kiss and weep (1 Samuel 20); Saul explicitly condemns Jonathan in language referencing sexual shame on the subject: "You son of a perverse, rebellious woman! Do I not know that you have chosen [David] the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of your mothers nakedness?" (1 Samuel 20 again);
Wasn't there a scene in Band of Brothers where they said that there love for each other was stronger than the love of a woman? Even if it wasn't 2 Sam 1 doesn't automatically mean a reference to homosexual love. Sure its emotive language. But that's David's style, he's emotional and feels strongly. v23 has Saul and Jonathon beloved and lovely. David loved Jonathon, but he tells us its as his "brother".
You say that Saul condemns Jonathon using language referencing sexual shame. I grant that, but not that it was a reference to homosexuality. I can't see anything explicit in that statement to link it to a homosexual relationship between Jonathon and David.
So I think the ripples of homoerotic over- and under-tones are more in the way our culture reads into texts than the way the texts have been read for the last 3000 years.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 22, 2016, 02:36AM
Questions and Observations
1) vv9-10: " Then a harmful spirit from the Lord came upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand. And David was playing the lyre. And Saul sought to pin David to the wall with the spear, but he eluded Saul, so that he struck the spear into the wall." What is Yahweh doing purveying "harmful spirits"?
God's ultimately in charge of them all and can use them when he please.
Quote2) Jonathan was evidently not the only person there with strong affection for David - Michal (his wife, after all) risks herself on his behalf.
Everybody loved David. Except for Saul.
Questions and Observations
1) vv9-10: " Then a harmful spirit from the Lord came upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand. And David was playing the lyre. And Saul sought to pin David to the wall with the spear, but he eluded Saul, so that he struck the spear into the wall." What is Yahweh doing purveying "harmful spirits"?
God's ultimately in charge of them all and can use them when he please.
Quote2) Jonathan was evidently not the only person there with strong affection for David - Michal (his wife, after all) risks herself on his behalf.
Everybody loved David. Except for Saul.
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ttf_MoominDave
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I didn't expect you to find it an appealing thesis, and nor do I know your personal stance on gay rights - so certainly wasn't poking you on the subject. And I agree that you don't have to yank the text too hard to cast plenty of doubt on the idea. But equally you don't have to yank it too hard to find support for it.
I mostly rather like the idea that when someone fulminates against gay rights, waving placards with Bible verse numbers on, one can point to one of the foremost Bible characters and argue without too much trouble that their actions look pretty gay (*). It's one in the eye for those that enjoy using this stuff to abuse those less socially privileged, and at the very least food for thought for any Christian minister that wants to minister to all of their flock rather than just those that tick every single box.
(*) Of course, as you say, the historical classifications of same-sex sexual behaviour have been pretty fluid. Most of what the Bible touches on deals with sex used as a power tool - e.g. the stories of Sodom and Gibeah - while our modern concept of same-sex marriage probably did not really exist. It was pretty common in that era at that end of the Mediterranean for pederastic relationships to occur - again, same-sex sex as a power tool rather than a means of affection and solidity. I don't pretend to understand all the complexities of how this kind of behaviour manifested in that society - but I rest assured that there must have been plenty of it - after all, there has been in every other society in history, and they specifically legislated regarding it.(*)
By the by, I noted to myself when we went past that some theorists make out a possible lesbian thing with Ruth and Naomi. That seems quite a large stretch to me, and a likely projection of modern views into an unjustified place, so I didn't raise it, finding it completely unnecessary to that story. But David and Jonathan is definitely not the least reasonable place in the Bible to spy a homosexual angle.
I mostly rather like the idea that when someone fulminates against gay rights, waving placards with Bible verse numbers on, one can point to one of the foremost Bible characters and argue without too much trouble that their actions look pretty gay (*). It's one in the eye for those that enjoy using this stuff to abuse those less socially privileged, and at the very least food for thought for any Christian minister that wants to minister to all of their flock rather than just those that tick every single box.
(*) Of course, as you say, the historical classifications of same-sex sexual behaviour have been pretty fluid. Most of what the Bible touches on deals with sex used as a power tool - e.g. the stories of Sodom and Gibeah - while our modern concept of same-sex marriage probably did not really exist. It was pretty common in that era at that end of the Mediterranean for pederastic relationships to occur - again, same-sex sex as a power tool rather than a means of affection and solidity. I don't pretend to understand all the complexities of how this kind of behaviour manifested in that society - but I rest assured that there must have been plenty of it - after all, there has been in every other society in history, and they specifically legislated regarding it.(*)
By the by, I noted to myself when we went past that some theorists make out a possible lesbian thing with Ruth and Naomi. That seems quite a large stretch to me, and a likely projection of modern views into an unjustified place, so I didn't raise it, finding it completely unnecessary to that story. But David and Jonathan is definitely not the least reasonable place in the Bible to spy a homosexual angle.
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ttf_MoominDave
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1 Samuel 21 text
1 Samuel 22 text
Highlights
- David flees
Summary
Ch 21
- David and his retinue reach the town of Nob, where they ask Ahimelech the priest for bread, which they are given.
- He asks Ahimelech for a sword, and is given Goliath's sword.
- But a servant of Saul is present, Doeg the Edomite, unfortunately for Ahimelech.
- David flees on to Gath, but worries that his reputation will put him at risk from the king there, Achish. He simulates madness, and the king ceases to worry.
Ch 22
- David flees on to the Cave of Adullam, where he draws around him various outcasts willing to embrace his cause.
- He then travels to Mizpeh in Moab, where he leaves his parents with the king, before moving on to the forest of Hereth at the advice of the prophet Gad.
- In response to hectoring, Doeg informs Saul that David was seen at Nob.
- Saul travels to Nob and questions Ahimelech.
- Ahimelech protests innocence - he served David in the belief that David served Saul.
- But Saul doesn't believe him and orders all the priests of Nob killed.
- His servants will not do this, but Doeg does.
- Ahimelech's son Abiathar escapes and brings this news to David.
Questions and Observations
1) Why have David's young men been kept from women? NB This is a simple question with no angle intended - nothing to do with the conversation about David and Jonathan.
2) Goliath's sword? I suppose there's no reason why he couldn't have had multiple weapons, but when we met him he was armed with a spear.
3) Gath was a Philistine city, home of Goliath - presumably Israelite since Saul's earlier campaign?
1 Samuel 22 text
Highlights
- David flees
Summary
Ch 21
- David and his retinue reach the town of Nob, where they ask Ahimelech the priest for bread, which they are given.
- He asks Ahimelech for a sword, and is given Goliath's sword.
- But a servant of Saul is present, Doeg the Edomite, unfortunately for Ahimelech.
- David flees on to Gath, but worries that his reputation will put him at risk from the king there, Achish. He simulates madness, and the king ceases to worry.
Ch 22
- David flees on to the Cave of Adullam, where he draws around him various outcasts willing to embrace his cause.
- He then travels to Mizpeh in Moab, where he leaves his parents with the king, before moving on to the forest of Hereth at the advice of the prophet Gad.
- In response to hectoring, Doeg informs Saul that David was seen at Nob.
- Saul travels to Nob and questions Ahimelech.
- Ahimelech protests innocence - he served David in the belief that David served Saul.
- But Saul doesn't believe him and orders all the priests of Nob killed.
- His servants will not do this, but Doeg does.
- Ahimelech's son Abiathar escapes and brings this news to David.
Questions and Observations
1) Why have David's young men been kept from women? NB This is a simple question with no angle intended - nothing to do with the conversation about David and Jonathan.
2) Goliath's sword? I suppose there's no reason why he couldn't have had multiple weapons, but when we met him he was armed with a spear.
3) Gath was a Philistine city, home of Goliath - presumably Israelite since Saul's earlier campaign?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Apologies for forging ahead on this rather - the yarn's all of a sudden started to rip a bit, and it's become an unexpected easy pleasure to read
1 Samuel 23 text
Highlights
- David seizes the town of Keilah from Philistine control, but then hides from Saul in the hills
Summary
- The Philistines sack Keilah.
- David and his band repel them, and barricade themselves in the town.
- Saul hears of this and raises an army to besiege the town.
- David decides that as the inhabitants cannot be trusted to support him over Saul, they will do better to camp in the wilderness, and so they depart the town.
- The local wilderness inhabitants inform Saul that David is hiding amongst them.
- Saul pursues David, but news arrives of a Philistine attack at home that must be defended against, and so he abandons the chase.
Questions and Observations
1) Some treat Saul as king, some treat David as king. This is civil war.
2) Jonathan and David meet again. Jonathan says that David is to be king and that he will be next to him. This can be read to favour either kind of relationship between them. I'm surprised that they meet again - I had thought that the parting was forever. Evidently my memory is faulty.
3) Samuel's gone very quiet, hasn't he?
1 Samuel 23 text
Highlights
- David seizes the town of Keilah from Philistine control, but then hides from Saul in the hills
Summary
- The Philistines sack Keilah.
- David and his band repel them, and barricade themselves in the town.
- Saul hears of this and raises an army to besiege the town.
- David decides that as the inhabitants cannot be trusted to support him over Saul, they will do better to camp in the wilderness, and so they depart the town.
- The local wilderness inhabitants inform Saul that David is hiding amongst them.
- Saul pursues David, but news arrives of a Philistine attack at home that must be defended against, and so he abandons the chase.
Questions and Observations
1) Some treat Saul as king, some treat David as king. This is civil war.
2) Jonathan and David meet again. Jonathan says that David is to be king and that he will be next to him. This can be read to favour either kind of relationship between them. I'm surprised that they meet again - I had thought that the parting was forever. Evidently my memory is faulty.
3) Samuel's gone very quiet, hasn't he?
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 22, 2016, 06:24AMI didn't expect you to find it an appealing thesis, and nor do I know your personal stance on gay rights - so certainly wasn't poking you on the subject.
...
But David and Jonathan is definitely not the least reasonable place in the Bible to spy a homosexual angle.
I didn't think you were poking me and didn't take it personally. I can see how David and Jonathon's relationship could look gay so I wanted to look at the text in the light of the the article you posted and respond as you raised reasonable issues with it. Often I agree with your take on the text, but this time I didn't.
...
But David and Jonathan is definitely not the least reasonable place in the Bible to spy a homosexual angle.
I didn't think you were poking me and didn't take it personally. I can see how David and Jonathon's relationship could look gay so I wanted to look at the text in the light of the the article you posted and respond as you raised reasonable issues with it. Often I agree with your take on the text, but this time I didn't.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 22, 2016, 06:54AM
1) Why have David's young men been kept from women? NB This is a simple question with no angle intended - nothing to do with the conversation about David and Jonathan.
I don't know of any biblical reason. I expect that David was making this up so that he would get the bread.
Quote2) Goliath's sword? I suppose there's no reason why he couldn't have had multiple weapons, but when we met him he was armed with a spear.
Goliath's sword is mentioned in 17:51 where David used it to cut off Goliath's head.
I expect that in the battle Goliath used his ranged weapons from a distance first, and then his sword for the close in fighting.
Quote
3) Gath was a Philistine city, home of Goliath - presumably Israelite since Saul's earlier campaign?
I'm pretty sure that Achish the king of Gath was Philistine. So the question to me is why the Philistines let David stay in their city, even if they did think he was mad?
1) Why have David's young men been kept from women? NB This is a simple question with no angle intended - nothing to do with the conversation about David and Jonathan.
I don't know of any biblical reason. I expect that David was making this up so that he would get the bread.
Quote2) Goliath's sword? I suppose there's no reason why he couldn't have had multiple weapons, but when we met him he was armed with a spear.
Goliath's sword is mentioned in 17:51 where David used it to cut off Goliath's head.
I expect that in the battle Goliath used his ranged weapons from a distance first, and then his sword for the close in fighting.
Quote
3) Gath was a Philistine city, home of Goliath - presumably Israelite since Saul's earlier campaign?
I'm pretty sure that Achish the king of Gath was Philistine. So the question to me is why the Philistines let David stay in their city, even if they did think he was mad?
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 22, 2016, 07:11AMApologies for forging ahead on this rather - the yarn's all of a sudden started to rip a bit, and it's become an unexpected easy pleasure to read
No problem. There's a lot still left to read, so moving through a few chapters at a time when we're feeling motivated seems good to me.
Quote3) Samuel's gone very quiet, hasn't he?
Saul and David have taken over the rule of Judges (ie battle leader and decision makers), so there's not much for Samuel to do.
No problem. There's a lot still left to read, so moving through a few chapters at a time when we're feeling motivated seems good to me.
Quote3) Samuel's gone very quiet, hasn't he?
Saul and David have taken over the rule of Judges (ie battle leader and decision makers), so there's not much for Samuel to do.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 22, 2016, 06:54AM2) Goliath's sword? I suppose there's no reason why he couldn't have had multiple weapons, but when we met him he was armed with a spear.
Pole weapons would have been the standard combat arm and that continued into and past the middle ages - even as late as WWI there remained the idea that bullets helped you close to bayonet distance. A sword was more of a dueling weapon or personal defense weapon. Yeah, the Romans used the glavius, but that wasn't their only weapon. Spears and pikes were what counted through the middle ages.
I'm inclined to doubt a shock troop like Goliath would have had a range weapon at all.
We've discussed over on the sling forum whether David with a range weapon would have been near invincible against a stationary warrior like Goliath, and had mixed conclusions. On the face of it you should be able to stand off and hit him before he can close, but in fact it isn't that easy to hit a moving target with a sling, and you have to get close enough that if you miss he may be able to catch you before you can make a hit.
Pole weapons would have been the standard combat arm and that continued into and past the middle ages - even as late as WWI there remained the idea that bullets helped you close to bayonet distance. A sword was more of a dueling weapon or personal defense weapon. Yeah, the Romans used the glavius, but that wasn't their only weapon. Spears and pikes were what counted through the middle ages.
I'm inclined to doubt a shock troop like Goliath would have had a range weapon at all.
We've discussed over on the sling forum whether David with a range weapon would have been near invincible against a stationary warrior like Goliath, and had mixed conclusions. On the face of it you should be able to stand off and hit him before he can close, but in fact it isn't that easy to hit a moving target with a sling, and you have to get close enough that if you miss he may be able to catch you before you can make a hit.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: timothy42b on May 22, 2016, 04:50PMWe've discussed over on the sling forum whether David with a range weapon would have been near invincible against a stationary warrior like Goliath, and had mixed conclusions. On the face of it you should be able to stand off and hit him before he can close, but in fact it isn't that easy to hit a moving target with a sling, and you have to get close enough that if you miss he may be able to catch you before you can make a hit.
Is the sling forum Slinging.org? Looks fun. there's some scientific stuff here eg http://slinging.org/index.php?page=a-formidable-ancient-weapon---rean-steenkamp and some articles on the effectiveness of slings. David and Goliath is a popular topic.
Slinging can be accurate : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw2E9lhw0Bo but checking out the Balaeric Sling championships show's it isn't always that accurate.
The stones pack a punch too : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4_3ynNj8o
here's a guy shooting at watermelons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xPhrgPvq6c
My tip for the day : If you're going to try it out, start slinging tennis balls.
Is the sling forum Slinging.org? Looks fun. there's some scientific stuff here eg http://slinging.org/index.php?page=a-formidable-ancient-weapon---rean-steenkamp and some articles on the effectiveness of slings. David and Goliath is a popular topic.
Slinging can be accurate : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw2E9lhw0Bo but checking out the Balaeric Sling championships show's it isn't always that accurate.
The stones pack a punch too : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4_3ynNj8o
here's a guy shooting at watermelons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xPhrgPvq6c
My tip for the day : If you're going to try it out, start slinging tennis balls.
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ttf_drizabone
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1 Samuel 24 text
Highlights -
- Saul chases David
Summary
- Saul takes a break from chasing David to releive himself in a cave
- It just so happens to be the cave that DAvid and his men are hiding in. The men tell David that God must have given Saul into his hands, but David refuses to harm the Lord's annointed. He cuts off a corner of his robe instead.
- Saul leaves the cave, David follows and calls out to Saul that he could have killed him but didn't and won't harm him.
- Saul weeps because he realises that David is more righteous than Saul and that he will become King. He asks David to swear that he won't harm his offspring or his name. David agrees. Saul says he will stop trying to kill David.
Questions and Observations
1) Does the scene where David cuts off the corner of Saul's robe remind oyu of 1 Samuel 15:27-28?
2) Are you surprised that Saul admits that David will get the kingdom now?
3) I've always thought that Saul must have had a little sleep while he was in the cave to allow for David's discussion and robe cutting.
Highlights -
- Saul chases David
Summary
- Saul takes a break from chasing David to releive himself in a cave
- It just so happens to be the cave that DAvid and his men are hiding in. The men tell David that God must have given Saul into his hands, but David refuses to harm the Lord's annointed. He cuts off a corner of his robe instead.
- Saul leaves the cave, David follows and calls out to Saul that he could have killed him but didn't and won't harm him.
- Saul weeps because he realises that David is more righteous than Saul and that he will become King. He asks David to swear that he won't harm his offspring or his name. David agrees. Saul says he will stop trying to kill David.
Questions and Observations
1) Does the scene where David cuts off the corner of Saul's robe remind oyu of 1 Samuel 15:27-28?
2) Are you surprised that Saul admits that David will get the kingdom now?
3) I've always thought that Saul must have had a little sleep while he was in the cave to allow for David's discussion and robe cutting.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Goliath's sword - that David found it a useful weapon for himself suggests again that Goliath was not of completely unusual stature and power. A sword that was wielded by a 9'6" person would be completely unwieldable by someone of normal height.
Quote from: drizabone on May 22, 2016, 09:16PM1) Does the scene where David cuts off the corner of Saul's robe remind oyu of 1 Samuel 15:27-28?
A little.
Quote from: drizabone on May 22, 2016, 09:16PM2) Are you surprised that Saul admits that David will get the kingdom now?
Yes, it's a little strange. Unless I've missed it, Saul hasn't been informed that David is his replacement? But presumably it's all become fairly obvious. Whatever his shortcomings, Saul as depicted is an intelligent person.
Quote from: drizabone on May 22, 2016, 09:16PM3) I've always thought that Saul must have had a little sleep while he was in the cave to allow for David's discussion and robe cutting.
Surely yes!
Quote from: drizabone on May 22, 2016, 09:16PM1) Does the scene where David cuts off the corner of Saul's robe remind oyu of 1 Samuel 15:27-28?
A little.
Quote from: drizabone on May 22, 2016, 09:16PM2) Are you surprised that Saul admits that David will get the kingdom now?
Yes, it's a little strange. Unless I've missed it, Saul hasn't been informed that David is his replacement? But presumably it's all become fairly obvious. Whatever his shortcomings, Saul as depicted is an intelligent person.
Quote from: drizabone on May 22, 2016, 09:16PM3) I've always thought that Saul must have had a little sleep while he was in the cave to allow for David's discussion and robe cutting.
Surely yes!
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ttf_MoominDave
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1 Samuel 25 text
Highlights
- Death of Samuel
- David takes two new wives, the first after an incident with her then husband
Summary
- Samuel dies.
- David and his men enter the wilderness of Paran.
- A very wealthy man lives at Carmel, Nabal, who has a "discerning and beautiful" wife, Abigail.
- David orders his men to guard Nabal's goods and men, then approach Nabal on an upcoming feast day to ask for food in return.
- Nabal refuses to pay, offering a little insult to David.
- David is offended, and readies his men for attack.
- One of Nabal's men tells Abigail what Nabal has done, and she takes supplies to David in order to mitigate the offence, talking ill of her husband to David.
- David accepts her gift and forgives Nabal for it, saying that he had intended to kill all of Nabal's men.
- Abigail returns home; Nabal is feasting and drunk.
- In the morning she tells him what she has done and he takes it badly - collapsing and then dying 10 days later.
- David hears and sends for Abigail to become his wife; she makes haste to do so.
- David also takes Ahinoam of Jezreel to become his wife.
- Apparently Michal had been withdrawn from him by Saul, and given to another.
Questions and Observations
1) Ah yes, this will be why Samuel has gone quiet then. Bit of a surprise to see him die only halfway through his own book.
2) But his death is noted in pretty cursory fashion, and without reference to the ongoing events. It is clear that the political action has long moved on from
him. We don't even see an impressively inflated age ascribed to him.
3) Names as story description again: "Nabal" = "fool".
4) It is very presumptuous of David to do Nabal a service that was not asked for, and then demand payment for it.
5) Then super-presumptuous to attack him over it. This reads like a pretext for an already-planned attack.
6) David's marriage situation is getting very messy. He is (was?) married to Saul's daughter Michal, who Saul has now given to someone else. Now he marries not one but two new wives in the space of a verse, the latter accounted for very cursorily indeed. So he has three wives now, one of whom is also married to someone else (Palti of Gallim). Plus the situation with Jonathan if we wish to count that too.
7) It may even be messier than this - Ahinoam was the name of Michal's mother, Saul's wife, and it can be argued that they were the same person. So maybe the daughter is taken away from David, but the mother is given to him. This family tree is getting complex, with altogether too many cross-connections.
8) David taking a woman after an altercation with David sees her husband swept from the scene. Hmm, I think we may see this tactic again.
Highlights
- Death of Samuel
- David takes two new wives, the first after an incident with her then husband
Summary
- Samuel dies.
- David and his men enter the wilderness of Paran.
- A very wealthy man lives at Carmel, Nabal, who has a "discerning and beautiful" wife, Abigail.
- David orders his men to guard Nabal's goods and men, then approach Nabal on an upcoming feast day to ask for food in return.
- Nabal refuses to pay, offering a little insult to David.
- David is offended, and readies his men for attack.
- One of Nabal's men tells Abigail what Nabal has done, and she takes supplies to David in order to mitigate the offence, talking ill of her husband to David.
- David accepts her gift and forgives Nabal for it, saying that he had intended to kill all of Nabal's men.
- Abigail returns home; Nabal is feasting and drunk.
- In the morning she tells him what she has done and he takes it badly - collapsing and then dying 10 days later.
- David hears and sends for Abigail to become his wife; she makes haste to do so.
- David also takes Ahinoam of Jezreel to become his wife.
- Apparently Michal had been withdrawn from him by Saul, and given to another.
Questions and Observations
1) Ah yes, this will be why Samuel has gone quiet then. Bit of a surprise to see him die only halfway through his own book.
2) But his death is noted in pretty cursory fashion, and without reference to the ongoing events. It is clear that the political action has long moved on from
him. We don't even see an impressively inflated age ascribed to him.
3) Names as story description again: "Nabal" = "fool".
4) It is very presumptuous of David to do Nabal a service that was not asked for, and then demand payment for it.
5) Then super-presumptuous to attack him over it. This reads like a pretext for an already-planned attack.
6) David's marriage situation is getting very messy. He is (was?) married to Saul's daughter Michal, who Saul has now given to someone else. Now he marries not one but two new wives in the space of a verse, the latter accounted for very cursorily indeed. So he has three wives now, one of whom is also married to someone else (Palti of Gallim). Plus the situation with Jonathan if we wish to count that too.
7) It may even be messier than this - Ahinoam was the name of Michal's mother, Saul's wife, and it can be argued that they were the same person. So maybe the daughter is taken away from David, but the mother is given to him. This family tree is getting complex, with altogether too many cross-connections.
8) David taking a woman after an altercation with David sees her husband swept from the scene. Hmm, I think we may see this tactic again.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 23, 2016, 05:33AM
4) It is very presumptuous of David to do Nabal a service that was not asked for, and then demand payment for it.
5) Then super-presumptuous to attack him over it. This reads like a pretext for an already-planned attack.
And pretty stupid of Nabal to insult David while denying his request too.
Quote8) David taking a woman after an altercation with David sees her husband swept from the scene. Hmm, I think we may see this tactic again.
Its interesting to me that David is shown as having these character flaws and making bad decisions:
- I would expect that their hero king's story would be heavily air brushed to present him in as perfect.
- he was chosen as king because he's "a man after God's own heart". So what about this flawed character allows that comparison? Its probably too early to tell yet, but keep the question in mind.
4) It is very presumptuous of David to do Nabal a service that was not asked for, and then demand payment for it.
5) Then super-presumptuous to attack him over it. This reads like a pretext for an already-planned attack.
And pretty stupid of Nabal to insult David while denying his request too.
Quote8) David taking a woman after an altercation with David sees her husband swept from the scene. Hmm, I think we may see this tactic again.
Its interesting to me that David is shown as having these character flaws and making bad decisions:
- I would expect that their hero king's story would be heavily air brushed to present him in as perfect.
- he was chosen as king because he's "a man after God's own heart". So what about this flawed character allows that comparison? Its probably too early to tell yet, but keep the question in mind.
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: MoominDave on May 22, 2016, 06:54AM2) David takes Goliath's sword to use ... (not a quote actually)
Just thinking about small David being able to wield large Goliath's sword.
1. If it was a big two handed sword designed for a large strong giant then it would be difficult for a normal sized person to wield
2. If it was a small sword for Goliath then it would have been a relatively larger by manageable sword for David.
3. Unless, of course, it was a magic sword that changed to suit its rightful owner!!! David became its owner by virtue of killing its previous owner. (Wands work the same way don't they?) It must have been Excalibur!!! Amazing! Just kidding.
Just thinking about small David being able to wield large Goliath's sword.
1. If it was a big two handed sword designed for a large strong giant then it would be difficult for a normal sized person to wield
2. If it was a small sword for Goliath then it would have been a relatively larger by manageable sword for David.
3. Unless, of course, it was a magic sword that changed to suit its rightful owner!!! David became its owner by virtue of killing its previous owner. (Wands work the same way don't they?) It must have been Excalibur!!! Amazing! Just kidding.
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
1 Samuel 26 text
1 Samuel 27 text
Highlights
- Saul chases David again : David spares Saul's life again.
- David seeks refuge with Achish
Summary
Chapter 26
- Saul goes after David again
- David sneaks into Saul's camp while they are sleeping and takes his spear and drinking bottle but spares his life
- David taunts Abner, Saul's general, for having such poor security in the camp and tells Saul that once again he has spared his life and hasn't done anything to deserve this enmity Saul has for him.
- Saul says that repents of his sin against David (again)
Chapter 27
- David seeks refuge with Achish of Gath (a Philistine king)
- Achish gives David and his men and their families refuge in Ziklag.
- David uses this as a base to raid Canaanites but tells Achish that he is raiding Israelites.
- Gath trusts David
Questions and Observations
1) Achish is a bit gullible isn't he, that's the second time David has misled him.
2) David is a bit flexible with the truth, isn't he.
1 Samuel 27 text
Highlights
- Saul chases David again : David spares Saul's life again.
- David seeks refuge with Achish
Summary
Chapter 26
- Saul goes after David again
- David sneaks into Saul's camp while they are sleeping and takes his spear and drinking bottle but spares his life
- David taunts Abner, Saul's general, for having such poor security in the camp and tells Saul that once again he has spared his life and hasn't done anything to deserve this enmity Saul has for him.
- Saul says that repents of his sin against David (again)
Chapter 27
- David seeks refuge with Achish of Gath (a Philistine king)
- Achish gives David and his men and their families refuge in Ziklag.
- David uses this as a base to raid Canaanites but tells Achish that he is raiding Israelites.
- Gath trusts David
Questions and Observations
1) Achish is a bit gullible isn't he, that's the second time David has misled him.
2) David is a bit flexible with the truth, isn't he.
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ttf_robcat2075
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Blog TPM has highlighted a book about the late Bronze Age which points out something I had not know before: "the Philistines", frequent antagonists in the Bible around this time, were the "Sea Peoples"... the mysterious group often blamed for the collapse of Egypt and then the whole eastern Mediterranean civilization in this period.
When Civilizations Collapse
When Civilizations Collapse
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ttf_drizabone
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
It was an interesting period in history.
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ttf_MoominDave
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on May 23, 2016, 08:24PM - Saul chases David again : David spares Saul's life again.
This reads to me like a duplication of the story we've just had, understood in similar fashion to the many duplications we've already seen in earlier books - two versions of the same story included side by side because the writer wasn't sure which was canonic. We've not seen much of this in Samuel, which is perhaps part of the reason why it's been more readable.
The doublet makes the sequence seem very odd. Saul chases David; David spares Saul; Saul vows not to chase; Saul chases David; David spares Saul; Saul vows not to chase.
Quote from: drizabone on May 23, 2016, 08:24PM - David seeks refuge with Achish
But then this makes less sense without the repeat, though not no sense. I withhold judgement on how this section hangs together, I think - it's confusing to me. Perhaps there is another confused chronology, with David fleeing to the Philistines due to come before Saul's duplicated forgiveness.
Quote from: drizabone on May 23, 2016, 08:24PM2) David is a bit flexible with the truth, isn't he.
It is all in all a peculiar episode. David was the great totem that defeated the Philistines over and over not that many years before. Now they welcome him. I think what we see is that there were not such profound differences between these neighbouring civilisations as all that; more common ground than not - we see small power blocs jockeying to become larger power blocs much as the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms fought amongst themselves and eventually produced England.
Incidentally, I spy a chronological titbit: v6: "Ziklag has belonged to the kings of Judah to this day." By the early 6th century BC Judah was subject to Babylonian rule and rebelled repeatedly - in response the Babylonians destroyed and deported them, a process the end of which is dated to 586 BC. So this passage cannot have been written any later than that.
Quote from: robcat2075 on May 23, 2016, 09:01PMBlog TPM has highlighted a book about the late Bronze Age which points out something I had not know before: "the Philistines", frequent antagonists in the Bible around this time, were the "Sea Peoples"... the mysterious group often blamed for the collapse of Egypt and then the whole eastern Mediterranean civilization in this period.
When Civilizations Collapse
I think asserting that the Philistines and Sea Peoples were the same people is not quite safe... It seems that the Philistines were originally Greek invaders, people who came to be rather different from where they started from and probably arrived by sea. But this is far from the full story about the so-called "Sea Peoples":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples
http://www.ancient.eu/Sea_Peoples/
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm
As far as I can see, there are a lot of hypotheses out there, some or all of which may be either complementary or competing, suggesting vast numbers of historical loose ends, and almost certainly various different groupings of people doing similar things in ships at a similar time. It is indeed interesting stuff...
This reads to me like a duplication of the story we've just had, understood in similar fashion to the many duplications we've already seen in earlier books - two versions of the same story included side by side because the writer wasn't sure which was canonic. We've not seen much of this in Samuel, which is perhaps part of the reason why it's been more readable.
The doublet makes the sequence seem very odd. Saul chases David; David spares Saul; Saul vows not to chase; Saul chases David; David spares Saul; Saul vows not to chase.
Quote from: drizabone on May 23, 2016, 08:24PM - David seeks refuge with Achish
But then this makes less sense without the repeat, though not no sense. I withhold judgement on how this section hangs together, I think - it's confusing to me. Perhaps there is another confused chronology, with David fleeing to the Philistines due to come before Saul's duplicated forgiveness.
Quote from: drizabone on May 23, 2016, 08:24PM2) David is a bit flexible with the truth, isn't he.
It is all in all a peculiar episode. David was the great totem that defeated the Philistines over and over not that many years before. Now they welcome him. I think what we see is that there were not such profound differences between these neighbouring civilisations as all that; more common ground than not - we see small power blocs jockeying to become larger power blocs much as the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms fought amongst themselves and eventually produced England.
Incidentally, I spy a chronological titbit: v6: "Ziklag has belonged to the kings of Judah to this day." By the early 6th century BC Judah was subject to Babylonian rule and rebelled repeatedly - in response the Babylonians destroyed and deported them, a process the end of which is dated to 586 BC. So this passage cannot have been written any later than that.
Quote from: robcat2075 on May 23, 2016, 09:01PMBlog TPM has highlighted a book about the late Bronze Age which points out something I had not know before: "the Philistines", frequent antagonists in the Bible around this time, were the "Sea Peoples"... the mysterious group often blamed for the collapse of Egypt and then the whole eastern Mediterranean civilization in this period.
When Civilizations Collapse
I think asserting that the Philistines and Sea Peoples were the same people is not quite safe... It seems that the Philistines were originally Greek invaders, people who came to be rather different from where they started from and probably arrived by sea. But this is far from the full story about the so-called "Sea Peoples":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples
http://www.ancient.eu/Sea_Peoples/
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm
As far as I can see, there are a lot of hypotheses out there, some or all of which may be either complementary or competing, suggesting vast numbers of historical loose ends, and almost certainly various different groupings of people doing similar things in ships at a similar time. It is indeed interesting stuff...
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ttf_MoominDave
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
1 Samuel 28 text
Highlights
- Saul summons the ghost of Samuel for advice, but gets only terrifying predictions
Summary
- The Philistines mass to fight Israel, and David goes along with them, appointed Achish's bodyguard.
- Saul masses his army to oppose them, but is daunted by the scale of the Philistine army.
- He seeks out a medium (the so-called "Witch of Endor"), and instructs her to summon Samuel.
- She is not keen as the king (who she has not identified in front of her) has outlawed this practice, but trusts his promises of safety, and does it anyway.
- Samuel tells Saul that he will lose the battle, the Philistines will overrun the Israelites, and that Saul and his son will die.
- In response, Saul is terrified, and the medium helps him overcome his fear.
Questions and Observations
1) An unexpected spiritualist turn here. There's previously been no suggestion of life after death, but of course it comes to be a central concept to Christianity in time. How do the theologians deal with this episode? And, remind me - is there a general Christian position on ghosts? And is there a general Christian position on the possibility of summoning them?
1a) In other words - does the content of this chapter read as strangely to a Christian as it does to me?
2) I wonder if George Lucas found inspiration here...
3) It isn't clear whether Samuel manifests as something that Saul can interact with directly or whether only the medium hears him.
4) The Bible loves a prophecy fulfilled... Perhaps a story-teller somewhere inserted this episode to make Saul's death more dramatic. It has the feel of an episode inserted.
5) David is doing a very plausible job of impersonating a turncoat here. So plausible that I'm wondering if there might be some sincerity in it.
Highlights
- Saul summons the ghost of Samuel for advice, but gets only terrifying predictions
Summary
- The Philistines mass to fight Israel, and David goes along with them, appointed Achish's bodyguard.
- Saul masses his army to oppose them, but is daunted by the scale of the Philistine army.
- He seeks out a medium (the so-called "Witch of Endor"), and instructs her to summon Samuel.
- She is not keen as the king (who she has not identified in front of her) has outlawed this practice, but trusts his promises of safety, and does it anyway.
- Samuel tells Saul that he will lose the battle, the Philistines will overrun the Israelites, and that Saul and his son will die.
- In response, Saul is terrified, and the medium helps him overcome his fear.
Questions and Observations
1) An unexpected spiritualist turn here. There's previously been no suggestion of life after death, but of course it comes to be a central concept to Christianity in time. How do the theologians deal with this episode? And, remind me - is there a general Christian position on ghosts? And is there a general Christian position on the possibility of summoning them?
1a) In other words - does the content of this chapter read as strangely to a Christian as it does to me?
2) I wonder if George Lucas found inspiration here...
3) It isn't clear whether Samuel manifests as something that Saul can interact with directly or whether only the medium hears him.
4) The Bible loves a prophecy fulfilled... Perhaps a story-teller somewhere inserted this episode to make Saul's death more dramatic. It has the feel of an episode inserted.
5) David is doing a very plausible job of impersonating a turncoat here. So plausible that I'm wondering if there might be some sincerity in it.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 24, 2016, 02:27AMIncidentally, I spy a chronological titbit: v6: "Ziklag has belonged to the kings of Judah to this day." By the early 6th century BC Judah was subject to Babylonian rule and rebelled repeatedly - in response the Babylonians destroyed and deported them, a process the end of which is dated to 586 BC. So this passage cannot have been written any later than that.
And Israel divided into 2 nations called Judah and Israel after Solomon's rule, so the book or at least this bit wasn't written until after then. So even though it is called 1st Samuel and the next was 2nd Samuel I don't think it was written by him. There are suggestions that Joshua, Judges, Ruth, Samuel and Kings (and Deuteronomy) were all written by the one author called "the Deuteronomist".
And Israel divided into 2 nations called Judah and Israel after Solomon's rule, so the book or at least this bit wasn't written until after then. So even though it is called 1st Samuel and the next was 2nd Samuel I don't think it was written by him. There are suggestions that Joshua, Judges, Ruth, Samuel and Kings (and Deuteronomy) were all written by the one author called "the Deuteronomist".
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ttf_drizabone
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1 Samuel 29 text
Highlights
- The Philistines send David home
Summary
- The Philistines and the Israelites were preparing for the battle
- The Philistines were parading past and their commanders noticed that Achish had David in his group. They said "What do you think you're doing?! David is going to want to kill us to get back on side with the Isrealites. Send him home!"
- So Achish ironically tells David that he had been honest but he had to go back to Ziklag.
Questions and Observations
1) That was convenient wasn't it. You'd almost think that someone was looking after David
Highlights
- The Philistines send David home
Summary
- The Philistines and the Israelites were preparing for the battle
- The Philistines were parading past and their commanders noticed that Achish had David in his group. They said "What do you think you're doing?! David is going to want to kill us to get back on side with the Isrealites. Send him home!"
- So Achish ironically tells David that he had been honest but he had to go back to Ziklag.
Questions and Observations
1) That was convenient wasn't it. You'd almost think that someone was looking after David
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ttf_MoominDave
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
1 Samuel 30 text
1 Samuel 31 text
Highlights
- The Amalekites have raided Ziklag, taking prisoners and spoil. David chases, defeats them, and recovers their things and people.
- The Philistines defeat the Israelites, and Saul and his sons die in the fight.
Summary
Ch 30
- David and his warriors return to Ziklag to find that the Amalekites have raided in their absence.
- The city has been sacked - burned, plundered, and the women seized, including David's wives.
- David seeks divine blessing to chase them, and gets it.
- David and his 600 pursue, but 200 of them are tired and do not make the whole journey.
- They find an Egyptian servant abandoned by the Amalekites, who guides them to the Amalekite camp.
- The Amalekites are celebrating and off-guard; David attacks at twilight, and routs them completely, recovering all the lost people and possessions.
- They return, picking up the tired 200 that guarded the baggage.
- Some of David's fighters suggest that the 200 should not receive shares of the victory, but David rules that all should share equally, and this is noted to be an Israelite law by the author.
- Some of the spoil is sent as a present to other elders of Judah.
Ch 31
- Philistines and Israelites fight. Philistines rout the Israelites.
- Saul and his sons are pressed back, and his sons, including Jonathan, are killed.
- Saul is badly wounded by arrows, and asks his armour-bearer to finish him off.
- The armour-bearer won't do it, so Saul throws himself upon his own sword, killing himself. Whereupon the armour-bearer does the same, killing himself.
- News of the defeat reaches the cities - Israelites flee, Philistines take them over.
- The Philistines display the bodies of Saul and his sons in a temple of theirs, but locals take them and bury them.
Questions and Observations
1) The present for the elders of Judah - their locations are listed - are these the people that David was living amongst when Saul was pursuing him?
2) The armour-bearer killing himself seems quite extreme.
3) Whatever the reasons, David has ended up standing well aside while the country he supports has taken a terrible beating - indeed in the company of those administering the beating. That can't have looked good.
1 Samuel 31 text
Highlights
- The Amalekites have raided Ziklag, taking prisoners and spoil. David chases, defeats them, and recovers their things and people.
- The Philistines defeat the Israelites, and Saul and his sons die in the fight.
Summary
Ch 30
- David and his warriors return to Ziklag to find that the Amalekites have raided in their absence.
- The city has been sacked - burned, plundered, and the women seized, including David's wives.
- David seeks divine blessing to chase them, and gets it.
- David and his 600 pursue, but 200 of them are tired and do not make the whole journey.
- They find an Egyptian servant abandoned by the Amalekites, who guides them to the Amalekite camp.
- The Amalekites are celebrating and off-guard; David attacks at twilight, and routs them completely, recovering all the lost people and possessions.
- They return, picking up the tired 200 that guarded the baggage.
- Some of David's fighters suggest that the 200 should not receive shares of the victory, but David rules that all should share equally, and this is noted to be an Israelite law by the author.
- Some of the spoil is sent as a present to other elders of Judah.
Ch 31
- Philistines and Israelites fight. Philistines rout the Israelites.
- Saul and his sons are pressed back, and his sons, including Jonathan, are killed.
- Saul is badly wounded by arrows, and asks his armour-bearer to finish him off.
- The armour-bearer won't do it, so Saul throws himself upon his own sword, killing himself. Whereupon the armour-bearer does the same, killing himself.
- News of the defeat reaches the cities - Israelites flee, Philistines take them over.
- The Philistines display the bodies of Saul and his sons in a temple of theirs, but locals take them and bury them.
Questions and Observations
1) The present for the elders of Judah - their locations are listed - are these the people that David was living amongst when Saul was pursuing him?
2) The armour-bearer killing himself seems quite extreme.
3) Whatever the reasons, David has ended up standing well aside while the country he supports has taken a terrible beating - indeed in the company of those administering the beating. That can't have looked good.
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ttf_MoominDave
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
In preface, recap of the story so far:
Quote from: MoominDave on May 13, 2016, 03:20AMQuote from: MoominDave on May 11, 2016, 03:12AMQuote from: MoominDave on Apr 19, 2016, 03:39AMQuote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMGenesis
Quote from: MoominDave on May 13, 2016, 03:20AMQuote from: MoominDave on May 11, 2016, 03:12AMQuote from: MoominDave on Apr 19, 2016, 03:39AMQuote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMGenesis
- [li]Big picture stuff
- [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
- [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]
- [li]...many laws are given[/li]
- [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]
- [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]
- [li]Conquest
- [li]Joshua appointed leader, to cross Jordan, conquer Canaan[/li][li]Spies report back that the time is ripe[/li][li]Jericho is the first city to fall. Then Ai, at the second attempt.[/li][li]The Gibeonites talk them into an alliance.[/li][li]Southern Canaan all conquered (sudden shift of narrative gear)[/li][li]Ditto the North[/li]
- [li]The East bank land that Moses took[/li][li]West bank land[/li][li]Remaining land[/li][li]Cities of refuge and Levite cities nominated[/li]
- [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads:
- [li]Othniel - defeated Mesopotamia[/li][li]Ehud - kills Eglon[/li][li]Shamgar - killed 600 Philistines with an ox-goad[/li][li]Deborah - defeated Jabin of Hazor[/li][li]Gideon - defeated Midian[/li][li]Tola, then Jair[/li][li]Jephthah - defeated the Ammonites[/li][li]Ibzan, then Elon, then Abdon[/li][li]Samson - killed Philistines, made trouble[/li]
- [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times[/li]
- [li]Samuel born and given to the church, in the care of the Judge Eli[/li][li]Philistines defeat Israel, taking the Ark of the Covenant, but they are divinely afflicted with tumours and give it back[/li][li]Israelites defeat Philistines, and Samuel becomes the leader[/li][li]Samuel ages, and his sons prove unworthy. Saul is appointed to the new role of king.[/li][li]Saul defeats the Ammonites[/li][li]Saul and Jonathan defeat the Philistines, but Saul usurps Samuel's function[/li][li]Saul defeats the Amalekites at Samuel's command, but does not obey the divine command to kill all; he is marked for failure from this point[/li][li]Samuel anoints David as a replacement king, but doesn't tell Saul[/li][li]David becomes an Israelite military hero, particularly beloved to Saul's son Jonathan, and Saul becomes jealous of him[/li][li]Saul resolves to kill David, and with Jonathan's assistance, he flees[/li][li]Saul pursues and they play a game of cat and mouse in which David finds Saul in his hands and spares him twice[/li][li]Samuel dies[/li][li]David seeks refuge with the Philistines[/li][li]Philistines and Israelites fight once again; Saul and all his sons die and the Philistines are victorious; David is sent home from the Philistine side before the battle.[/li]
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ttf_MoominDave
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2 Samuel 1 text
Highlights
- David hears of the defeat and laments for Saul and Jonathan
Summary
- A sojourning Amalekite brings news of the military disaster for the Israelites
- He describes how Saul asked him to kill him, how he obliged, and how he has brought David Saul's crown and armlet
- David and his company mourn for Saul and Jonathan
- But then kill the Amalekite for obliging Saul's request to kill him
- David sings of his sadness, including some lines of distinctly earthy mourning for Jonathan
Questions and Observations
1) This is not how Saul's death was described in the previous chapter.
2) So "the Lord's anointed" begging one to kill them quickly is not a judicially sound enough reason to avoid conviction for killing them. This seems a mite unfair. Perhaps David suspected a different version of events.
3) David and Jonathan - v26 very suggestive.
4) This lament, it tells us, comes from the Book of Jasher, a now lost work which was also referenced in Joshua 10:13.
Highlights
- David hears of the defeat and laments for Saul and Jonathan
Summary
- A sojourning Amalekite brings news of the military disaster for the Israelites
- He describes how Saul asked him to kill him, how he obliged, and how he has brought David Saul's crown and armlet
- David and his company mourn for Saul and Jonathan
- But then kill the Amalekite for obliging Saul's request to kill him
- David sings of his sadness, including some lines of distinctly earthy mourning for Jonathan
Questions and Observations
1) This is not how Saul's death was described in the previous chapter.
2) So "the Lord's anointed" begging one to kill them quickly is not a judicially sound enough reason to avoid conviction for killing them. This seems a mite unfair. Perhaps David suspected a different version of events.
3) David and Jonathan - v26 very suggestive.
4) This lament, it tells us, comes from the Book of Jasher, a now lost work which was also referenced in Joshua 10:13.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 24, 2016, 05:46AM
2) The armour-bearer killing himself seems quite extreme.
3) Whatever the reasons, David has ended up standing well aside while the country he supports has taken a terrible beating - indeed in the company of those administering the beating. That can't have looked good.
2) I thought that the armour bearer thought he was likely to have been abused by the Philistines if he was still alive, but don't really know.
3) I reckon that David would either have to be pretty heartless/calous or that he would have been distraught about Israel being beaten and that he couldn't do anything about it. I go with the second option.
2) The armour-bearer killing himself seems quite extreme.
3) Whatever the reasons, David has ended up standing well aside while the country he supports has taken a terrible beating - indeed in the company of those administering the beating. That can't have looked good.
2) I thought that the armour bearer thought he was likely to have been abused by the Philistines if he was still alive, but don't really know.
3) I reckon that David would either have to be pretty heartless/calous or that he would have been distraught about Israel being beaten and that he couldn't do anything about it. I go with the second option.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 24, 2016, 02:57AM
Questions and Observations
1) An unexpected spiritualist turn here. There's previously been no suggestion of life after death, but of course it comes to be a central concept to Christianity in time. How do the theologians deal with this episode? And, remind me - is there a general Christian position on ghosts? And is there a general Christian position on the possibility of summoning them?
I believe the conventional Christian position is that the witch must have merely been tricking Saul since summoning the dead is impossible (for mere mortals), although the passage itself doesn't indicate a deception.
But it must have been a fairly well-known ritual or Saul would not have thought to ask a witch to do it.
Quote2) I wonder if George Lucas found inspiration here...
Don't forget "Endora" on "Bewitched".
Yup, this is one of the weirdest things in the OT, among many.
Questions and Observations
1) An unexpected spiritualist turn here. There's previously been no suggestion of life after death, but of course it comes to be a central concept to Christianity in time. How do the theologians deal with this episode? And, remind me - is there a general Christian position on ghosts? And is there a general Christian position on the possibility of summoning them?
I believe the conventional Christian position is that the witch must have merely been tricking Saul since summoning the dead is impossible (for mere mortals), although the passage itself doesn't indicate a deception.
But it must have been a fairly well-known ritual or Saul would not have thought to ask a witch to do it.
Quote2) I wonder if George Lucas found inspiration here...
Don't forget "Endora" on "Bewitched".
Yup, this is one of the weirdest things in the OT, among many.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 24, 2016, 06:29AM
1) This is not how Saul's death was described in the previous chapter.
So the writer is reporting two stories. I reckon that the Amalekites story looks pretty suspicious.
- "By chance I happened to be on Mount Gilboa," - yeah he just happened to be casually standing there on the mountain, in the middle of a battle. "I wasn't scavenging things from the dead or nearly dead, no, not me."
- "and there was Saul leaning on his spear, and behold, the chariots and the horsemen were close upon him." the Philistines were bearing down on him
- 7 And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called to me. And I answered, Here I am. 8 And he said to me, Who are you? I answered him, I am an Amalekite. - " so they decided to have a little chat, with the chariots and horsemen bearing down on them
- 9 And he said to me, Stand beside me and kill me, for anguish has seized me, and yet my life still lingers. 10 So I stood beside him and killed him, " - as you would do to help someone out - apart from the fact that your tribes had been at war for 200 years, and there were horseman and chariots bearing down on him.
- "And I took the crown that was on his head and the armlet that was on his arm, and I have brought them here to my lord. - because I wanted to suck up to the new king.
Quote2) So "the Lord's anointed" begging one to kill them quickly is not a judicially sound enough reason to avoid conviction for killing them. This seems a mite unfair. Perhaps David suspected a different version of events.
I don't think that David believed his version of events. What do you reckon?
Quote3) David and Jonathan - v26 very suggestive.
suggestive? I don't know what you would mean?
that he loved Jonathon like a brother?
1) This is not how Saul's death was described in the previous chapter.
So the writer is reporting two stories. I reckon that the Amalekites story looks pretty suspicious.
- "By chance I happened to be on Mount Gilboa," - yeah he just happened to be casually standing there on the mountain, in the middle of a battle. "I wasn't scavenging things from the dead or nearly dead, no, not me."
- "and there was Saul leaning on his spear, and behold, the chariots and the horsemen were close upon him." the Philistines were bearing down on him
- 7 And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called to me. And I answered, Here I am. 8 And he said to me, Who are you? I answered him, I am an Amalekite. - " so they decided to have a little chat, with the chariots and horsemen bearing down on them
- 9 And he said to me, Stand beside me and kill me, for anguish has seized me, and yet my life still lingers. 10 So I stood beside him and killed him, " - as you would do to help someone out - apart from the fact that your tribes had been at war for 200 years, and there were horseman and chariots bearing down on him.
- "And I took the crown that was on his head and the armlet that was on his arm, and I have brought them here to my lord. - because I wanted to suck up to the new king.
Quote2) So "the Lord's anointed" begging one to kill them quickly is not a judicially sound enough reason to avoid conviction for killing them. This seems a mite unfair. Perhaps David suspected a different version of events.
I don't think that David believed his version of events. What do you reckon?
Quote3) David and Jonathan - v26 very suggestive.
suggestive? I don't know what you would mean?
that he loved Jonathon like a brother?-
ttf_drizabone
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2 Samuel 2 text
Highlights
- David is crowned king of Judah in the south
- Ish-bosheth is crowned king of Israel in the north.
- The Civil War starts
Summary
- David asks God if he should go back to Judah, God says, "yes, go to Hebron", So David, his men and their families go. The men of Hebron anoint David as their king.
- David praises the men of Jabesh-gilead because they gave Saul a proper burial and reminded them that he has been crowned king of Judah
- Abren, Sauls commander, has crowned Saul's son Ish-bosheth king over Gilead and the Ashurites and Jezreel and Ephraim and Benjamin and all Israel.
- Abner and Ishbaal take their men and go and meet David's army at the pool of Gibeon. What starts out as a contest between twelve of David's men and twelve of Ish-bosheth's quickly escalates into full-on war, and David's men stab and kill Ish-bosheth's men quickly. Then every one joins in.
- Towards the end of the battle, one of David's nephews, Asahel, gets caught up in pursuing Abner. Abner keeps telling him to turn back and chase someone else, but Asahel doesn't stop. It comes down to combat, and Abner kills Asahel.
- Asahel's two brothers, Abishai and Joab, chase after Abner for killing their brother. However, Abner pleas for an end to this civil war, asking them how long kinsmen can go on killing each other.
- Joab thinks this is a good point, and calls off the chase. They let Abner and Ish-bosheth retreat with their army.
- David's troops only suffered twenty casualties, whereas Abner and Ish-bosheth lost three hundred and sixty men.
- David's army buries Asahel in Bethlehem, and then marches on to Hebron.
Questions and Observations
1) Ish-bosheth is called Ishbaal in later books.
Highlights
- David is crowned king of Judah in the south
- Ish-bosheth is crowned king of Israel in the north.
- The Civil War starts
Summary
- David asks God if he should go back to Judah, God says, "yes, go to Hebron", So David, his men and their families go. The men of Hebron anoint David as their king.
- David praises the men of Jabesh-gilead because they gave Saul a proper burial and reminded them that he has been crowned king of Judah
- Abren, Sauls commander, has crowned Saul's son Ish-bosheth king over Gilead and the Ashurites and Jezreel and Ephraim and Benjamin and all Israel.
- Abner and Ishbaal take their men and go and meet David's army at the pool of Gibeon. What starts out as a contest between twelve of David's men and twelve of Ish-bosheth's quickly escalates into full-on war, and David's men stab and kill Ish-bosheth's men quickly. Then every one joins in.
- Towards the end of the battle, one of David's nephews, Asahel, gets caught up in pursuing Abner. Abner keeps telling him to turn back and chase someone else, but Asahel doesn't stop. It comes down to combat, and Abner kills Asahel.
- Asahel's two brothers, Abishai and Joab, chase after Abner for killing their brother. However, Abner pleas for an end to this civil war, asking them how long kinsmen can go on killing each other.
- Joab thinks this is a good point, and calls off the chase. They let Abner and Ish-bosheth retreat with their army.
- David's troops only suffered twenty casualties, whereas Abner and Ish-bosheth lost three hundred and sixty men.
- David's army buries Asahel in Bethlehem, and then marches on to Hebron.
Questions and Observations
1) Ish-bosheth is called Ishbaal in later books.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Regarding the Medium of Endor... It occurs to me that the author may have used this as a convenient narrative device to reconcile two chronologically irreconcilable stories that they wished to use, one where Samuel died before Saul, and one where Saul died before Samuel.
Quote from: drizabone on May 24, 2016, 11:20PM - David is crowned king of Judah in the south
- Ish-bosheth is crowned king of Israel in the north.
- The Civil War starts
We see that the two-state arrangement had longer antecedents than a simple post-Solomon split. I have been wondering through this whether in fact there was a united monarchy at all, or whether the story as presented is several-millennia-old propaganda spinning what were very local power bases into things that looked more like the institutions that the much-later authors were familiar with. The ways in which leaders, both judges and kings, have raised forces have looked distinctly local, limited, and basically unofficial.
Quote from: drizabone on May 24, 2016, 11:20PM1) Ish-bosheth is called Ishbaal in later books.
There's some commentary on this on his wiki page. The names are both somewhat obscure, but an idea presented there which I find appealing is that his given name was "Ishbaal" (or "Ashbaal"), after the deity, but that the Yahweh-following camp of David's Judahites referenced the deity part of his name instead by "bosheth" - "shameful one". We know that the Book of Samuel was written in Judah, because we were told so a few chapters ago. It is in the Book of Chronicles that he is given the "Baal" form of his name. But Chronicles is suspected to have been written in Jerusalem, which was in Judah, so I'm a little puzzled there.
Quote from: drizabone on May 24, 2016, 11:20PM - David is crowned king of Judah in the south
- Ish-bosheth is crowned king of Israel in the north.
- The Civil War starts
We see that the two-state arrangement had longer antecedents than a simple post-Solomon split. I have been wondering through this whether in fact there was a united monarchy at all, or whether the story as presented is several-millennia-old propaganda spinning what were very local power bases into things that looked more like the institutions that the much-later authors were familiar with. The ways in which leaders, both judges and kings, have raised forces have looked distinctly local, limited, and basically unofficial.
Quote from: drizabone on May 24, 2016, 11:20PM1) Ish-bosheth is called Ishbaal in later books.
There's some commentary on this on his wiki page. The names are both somewhat obscure, but an idea presented there which I find appealing is that his given name was "Ishbaal" (or "Ashbaal"), after the deity, but that the Yahweh-following camp of David's Judahites referenced the deity part of his name instead by "bosheth" - "shameful one". We know that the Book of Samuel was written in Judah, because we were told so a few chapters ago. It is in the Book of Chronicles that he is given the "Baal" form of his name. But Chronicles is suspected to have been written in Jerusalem, which was in Judah, so I'm a little puzzled there.
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ttf_MoominDave
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2 Samuel 3 text
Highlights
- Abner defects to David but is murdered by Joab in revenge
Summary
- Time passes... War drags on...
- David has various sons by various women, and has married at least some of them in addition to his existing wives.
- Abner becomes powerful in the North.
- He takes a concubine, Rizpah, who was formerly Saul's concubine.
- Ish-bosheth confronts him over this, and Abner is offended to be treated so, feeling that he is the one with the power, not Ish-bosheth.
- Abner sends a message to David offering to defect and deliver David a united country.
- David agrees, but only if Abner brings Michal, David's first wife, daughter of Saul, who David paid the price of Philistine foreskins for, but who Saul removed from David and gave to another (Palti of Laish) after he and David quarrelled.
- Michal is sent, over the heartbroken protestations of her husband Palti.
- Abner (escorting Michal) and David agree terms.
- Joab returns and hears what has happened; he urges David not to trust Abner.
- Joab sends messengers after Abner, who returns to Hebron at his request.
- Joab then murders Abner in revenge for Asahel's death at Abner's hand in battle.
- Judah mourns for Abner.
Questions and Observations
1) David seems keen to make his marriage situation ever more complicated, marrying and fathering willy-nilly. This is not an example that modern Christians tend to hold up as worthy.
2) And then his power-demonstrating demand/pretext for meeting Abner is that his earliest wife be returned to him as a political gesture. David really does seem to be keen on collecting women to be sexual with - this was a powerful and randy man.
3) But if he is expecting Michal to be delighted to be reunited with him, he may not have calculated correctly - she's apparently built a happy life elsewhere in the interim, on the Saulite side.
4) There's also a legal issue - Deuteronomy 24:4 prohibits the remarrying of two persons who had previously been divorced. But then I suppose they were never divorced... There's no prohibition that I can see about multiple marriages for either gender (as both David and Michal would violate one), but there is a vague rule in Deuteronomy 17:17 for kings: "And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold." David violates both of these, it seems to me. And later Solomon even more so.
5) Abner is presented as pretty unfortunate here. He urged Asahel not to make him kill him in battle unsuccessfully, then succeeded with the same appeal to Joab. But Joab revenges himself here for that deed. Joab is the one who comes out looking very bad, and David decrees that it is all and only Joab's fault.
6) However it played out, the net result is that Israel has lost its most powerful leader, and Judah are closing in on winning the war.
Highlights
- Abner defects to David but is murdered by Joab in revenge
Summary
- Time passes... War drags on...
- David has various sons by various women, and has married at least some of them in addition to his existing wives.
- Abner becomes powerful in the North.
- He takes a concubine, Rizpah, who was formerly Saul's concubine.
- Ish-bosheth confronts him over this, and Abner is offended to be treated so, feeling that he is the one with the power, not Ish-bosheth.
- Abner sends a message to David offering to defect and deliver David a united country.
- David agrees, but only if Abner brings Michal, David's first wife, daughter of Saul, who David paid the price of Philistine foreskins for, but who Saul removed from David and gave to another (Palti of Laish) after he and David quarrelled.
- Michal is sent, over the heartbroken protestations of her husband Palti.
- Abner (escorting Michal) and David agree terms.
- Joab returns and hears what has happened; he urges David not to trust Abner.
- Joab sends messengers after Abner, who returns to Hebron at his request.
- Joab then murders Abner in revenge for Asahel's death at Abner's hand in battle.
- Judah mourns for Abner.
Questions and Observations
1) David seems keen to make his marriage situation ever more complicated, marrying and fathering willy-nilly. This is not an example that modern Christians tend to hold up as worthy.
2) And then his power-demonstrating demand/pretext for meeting Abner is that his earliest wife be returned to him as a political gesture. David really does seem to be keen on collecting women to be sexual with - this was a powerful and randy man.
3) But if he is expecting Michal to be delighted to be reunited with him, he may not have calculated correctly - she's apparently built a happy life elsewhere in the interim, on the Saulite side.
4) There's also a legal issue - Deuteronomy 24:4 prohibits the remarrying of two persons who had previously been divorced. But then I suppose they were never divorced... There's no prohibition that I can see about multiple marriages for either gender (as both David and Michal would violate one), but there is a vague rule in Deuteronomy 17:17 for kings: "And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold." David violates both of these, it seems to me. And later Solomon even more so.
5) Abner is presented as pretty unfortunate here. He urged Asahel not to make him kill him in battle unsuccessfully, then succeeded with the same appeal to Joab. But Joab revenges himself here for that deed. Joab is the one who comes out looking very bad, and David decrees that it is all and only Joab's fault.
6) However it played out, the net result is that Israel has lost its most powerful leader, and Judah are closing in on winning the war.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 25, 2016, 01:43AM
We see that the two-state arrangement had longer antecedents than a simple post-Solomon split.
I read somewhere that parts of the OT were written when Israel was ascendant, and parts when Judah was, and each side tended to slant the story in their favor, so you had to be a little careful in interpretation.
And that's about all I remember about it, not even who said it.
We see that the two-state arrangement had longer antecedents than a simple post-Solomon split.
I read somewhere that parts of the OT were written when Israel was ascendant, and parts when Judah was, and each side tended to slant the story in their favor, so you had to be a little careful in interpretation.
And that's about all I remember about it, not even who said it.
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ttf_drizabone
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Your linky is pointing to 3 Samuel 2.
Quote from: MoominDave on May 25, 2016, 02:24AM1) David seems keen to make his marriage situation ever more complicated, marrying and fathering willy-nilly. This is not an example that modern Christians tend to hold up as worthy.
2) And then his power-demonstrating demand/pretext for meeting Abner is that his earliest wife be returned to him as a political gesture. David really does seem to be keen on collecting women to be sexual with - this was a powerful and randy man.
The writer isn't hiding David's imperfections. He's the hero, but he's got wart's and weaknesses. And women were a weakness.
So I agree he's not worthy, but then no one is. Just as well God is merciful and takes us imperfect sinners.
Quote from: MoominDave on May 25, 2016, 02:24AM1) David seems keen to make his marriage situation ever more complicated, marrying and fathering willy-nilly. This is not an example that modern Christians tend to hold up as worthy.
2) And then his power-demonstrating demand/pretext for meeting Abner is that his earliest wife be returned to him as a political gesture. David really does seem to be keen on collecting women to be sexual with - this was a powerful and randy man.
The writer isn't hiding David's imperfections. He's the hero, but he's got wart's and weaknesses. And women were a weakness.
So I agree he's not worthy, but then no one is. Just as well God is merciful and takes us imperfect sinners.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on May 25, 2016, 05:31AMYour linky is pointing to 3 Samuel 2.
Oops, fixed!
That would probably be 1 Kings... In the Septuagint the Samuels and Kings were labelled as 1-4 Kings.
Oops, fixed!
That would probably be 1 Kings... In the Septuagint the Samuels and Kings were labelled as 1-4 Kings.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: timothy42b on May 25, 2016, 04:40AMI read somewhere that parts of the OT were written when Israel was ascendant, and parts when Judah was, and each side tended to slant the story in their favor, so you had to be a little careful in interpretation.
And that's about all I remember about it, not even who said it.
I read somewhere that inventive interpreters see disagreements in places that don't fit their assumptions about what the text should say so you need to be a little careful in interpretation.
I can't remember who said it, though.
And that's about all I remember about it, not even who said it.
I read somewhere that inventive interpreters see disagreements in places that don't fit their assumptions about what the text should say so you need to be a little careful in interpretation.
I can't remember who said it, though.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Quote from: John the Theologian on May 25, 2016, 06:28AMI read somewhere that inventive interpreters see disagreements in places that don't fit their assumptions about what the text should say so you need to be a little careful in interpretation.
I can't remember who said it, though.
I've read that theologians who are also doctrinal apologists or just aren't careful enough to quite separate their beliefs from the actual facts are the worst about that.
I can't remember who said it, though.
I've read that theologians who are also doctrinal apologists or just aren't careful enough to quite separate their beliefs from the actual facts are the worst about that.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on May 25, 2016, 02:24AM
2) And then his power-demonstrating demand/pretext for meeting Abner is that his earliest wife be returned to him as a political gesture. David really does seem to be keen on collecting women to be sexual with - this was a powerful and randy man.
I'm not trying to make out that David was perfect but there seems to be some good reasons for David wanting Michal back
- their marriage was based on love and was not just a political match.
- it legitimized David's claim on the throne.
- it redressed the injustice of her having been stolen from him by Saul
2) And then his power-demonstrating demand/pretext for meeting Abner is that his earliest wife be returned to him as a political gesture. David really does seem to be keen on collecting women to be sexual with - this was a powerful and randy man.
I'm not trying to make out that David was perfect but there seems to be some good reasons for David wanting Michal back
- their marriage was based on love and was not just a political match.
- it legitimized David's claim on the throne.
- it redressed the injustice of her having been stolen from him by Saul
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ttf_drizabone
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2 Samuel 4 text
Highlights
- Ish-bosheth is murdered, clearing the way for David to be crowned king of all Israel
Summary
- Ish-bosheth was dismayed at Abner's death.
- He had 2 captains named Baanah and Rechab
- Jonathon had a 5 year old son named Mephibosheth who was cripple
- Baanah and Rechab killed Ish-bosheth and took his head to David.
- David said that he had killed the one who had told him Saul was dead and thought it was good news, so how much more will he require the blood of those who have killed a righteous man asleep in his own house. He kills them.
Questions and Observations
1) Its pretty strange inserting the info about Mephibosheth in the middle of the story about Ish-bosheth's murder. But if the writer is telling us about the murder of Ish-bosheth so that we can see that the was is clear for David to claim Saul's throne, then its relevant that we know that Jonathon's son was too young and weak to inherit it.
2) But its still pretty strange putting it right in the middle of Ish-bosheth's murder story.
Highlights
- Ish-bosheth is murdered, clearing the way for David to be crowned king of all Israel
Summary
- Ish-bosheth was dismayed at Abner's death.
- He had 2 captains named Baanah and Rechab
- Jonathon had a 5 year old son named Mephibosheth who was cripple
- Baanah and Rechab killed Ish-bosheth and took his head to David.
- David said that he had killed the one who had told him Saul was dead and thought it was good news, so how much more will he require the blood of those who have killed a righteous man asleep in his own house. He kills them.
Questions and Observations
1) Its pretty strange inserting the info about Mephibosheth in the middle of the story about Ish-bosheth's murder. But if the writer is telling us about the murder of Ish-bosheth so that we can see that the was is clear for David to claim Saul's throne, then its relevant that we know that Jonathon's son was too young and weak to inherit it.
2) But its still pretty strange putting it right in the middle of Ish-bosheth's murder story.
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ttf_MoominDave
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TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
David is pretty keen not to bestow the slightest legitimacy on the idea of regicide... Understandably so, given his position.
I note that the same naming idea as was laid out above for Ish-bosheth can also easily apply to Mephibosheth, who Chronicles 8:34 also gives a "Baal" form for: "Merib-baal". So what were both Saul and Jonathan doing dedicating their children to Ba'al in a naming convention that looks identical to that that sees so many ancient Hebrew names ending in "-el" (Samuel, Daniel, Michael, Gabriel, Ezekiel, etc.)? It is tempting to conclude that Yahweh hadn't yet won out amongst the ancient Israelites, and that they were at this point still polytheistic, with Ba'al amongst their canon.
I note that the same naming idea as was laid out above for Ish-bosheth can also easily apply to Mephibosheth, who Chronicles 8:34 also gives a "Baal" form for: "Merib-baal". So what were both Saul and Jonathan doing dedicating their children to Ba'al in a naming convention that looks identical to that that sees so many ancient Hebrew names ending in "-el" (Samuel, Daniel, Michael, Gabriel, Ezekiel, etc.)? It is tempting to conclude that Yahweh hadn't yet won out amongst the ancient Israelites, and that they were at this point still polytheistic, with Ba'al amongst their canon.