TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible

[ttf_drizabone]

Psalm 40 text

Highlights

 - waited and waiting

Summary

 - I waited for the Lord, he has heard me, rescued me, made me joyful and caused others to trust him
 - Blessed is the man who continues  to put his trust in the Lord
 - Rituals aren't enough: this requires serious commitment, obedience and public testimony
 - But can I keep it up: my heart will fail : save me Lord
 - put my foes to shame and let those who love you rejoice.
 - I am poor and needy: rescue me : don't delay

Questions and Observations

1) In the last 2 Psalms David or the psalmist has been praying and waiting for the Lord to save him.  The psalm is the conclusion:  the waiting is over, trust has been vindicated, committment to do God's will is made
2) waiting is the theme here, and that implies trust/faith

[ttf_drizabone]

I'm away for 10 days.  See you then.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Ah, just as I get back, too.

I'm going to be naughty and not make detailed comments on all the chapters I've missed in my week away. Good work on that front, everyone, most especially Martin, as ever. But heartening to see a new contributor step up too, thanks Dusty. Anyone who fancies taking a turn at any point, just dive in with the next chapter. Once you get into it, it's surprisingly straightforward to do. And the more of you that do contribute, the prettier the pattern of colours on my summarising record sheet...

Quote from: drizabone on Nov 26, 2016, 10:48PMPsalm 39 text

The middle segment of this psalm was set by Brahms in his German Requiem. Here's a video of a performance. A very moving piece. I recall playing in a performance of the requiem a number of years ago on an occasion when straight after the bass soloist intoned the opening "Lord... Let me know my end..." a member of the audience collapsed unconscious into the aisle from their seat. Very dramatic timing, but happily I heard later on that they were okay.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Psalm 41 text

Highlights

 - Help the poor
 - Have faith in Yahweh against your enemies

Summary

 - Helping those in poverty is a good thing to do; Yahweh approves
 - The enemies of the writer talk of them with malice, but they hold strongly to their faith
 - They believe that their faith will see them overcome their enemies

Questions and Observations

1) The two portions of this don't quite seem to go together, thematically. Vv 1-3: 'Help the poor'; vv 4-13: 'Have faith in Yahweh against your enemies'. Two different messages, and I don't understand why they are placed together here.
2) As with all psalms so far, this is ascribed to King David. In fact, this psalm concludes the first of the five traditional divisions of the psalms.
3) Charity is a Christian virtue; giving to the poor is specifically commended here. Is giving to the poor also a virtue when it is done in a centralised fashion via taxation and welfare? I would submit that it clearly is, though I'd also note that one cannot so easily take individual virtue points for it when it is effectively done for you.
4) I'd been considering making a mini-summary for each of the five divisions of the psalms, but I'm not sure it quite makes sense. I think I need to read more ahead to understand whether there are significant thematic divisions down these lines.

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 28, 2016, 08:24AMPsalm 41 text

Highlights

 - Help the poor
 - Have faith in Yahweh against your enemies

Summary

 - Helping those in poverty is a good thing to do; Yahweh approves
 - The enemies of the writer talk of them with malice, but they hold strongly to their faith
 - They believe that their faith will see them overcome their enemies

Questions and Observations

1) The two portions of this don't quite seem to go together, thematically. Vv 1-3: 'Help the poor'; vv 4-13: 'Have faith in Yahweh against your enemies'. Two different messages, and I don't understand why they are placed together here.
2) As with all psalms so far, this is ascribed to King David. In fact, this psalm concludes the first of the five traditional divisions of the psalms.
3) Charity is a Christian virtue; giving to the poor is specifically commended here. Is giving to the poor also a virtue when it is done in a centralised fashion via taxation and welfare? I would submit that it clearly is, though I'd also note that one cannot so easily take individual virtue points for it when it is effectively done for you.

1   Blessed is the one who considers the poor!
    In the day of trouble the Lord delivers him;
2   the Lord protects him and keeps him alive;
    he is called blessed in the land;
    you do not give him up to the will of his enemies.
3   The Lord sustains him on his sickbed;
    in his illness you restore him to full health.

Noting that in verse one it says "Blessed is the one who considers the poor!"
This is an obvious reference for us as individual, not as a tax payer.

Look at the Premise/Promise:

Premises:
1 - consider the poor; here I believe that 'considers' is one who not only notices, but takes action to help
2 - you don't give him up to his enemies

Promises:
1 - To be Blessed by the Lord
2 - Lord protects
3 - He sustains one on his deathbed
4 - He restores one to full health

So, I think it would be a jump to use this verse as a justification for the government to take the place of the individual in helping the poor.

[ttf_MoominDave]

It's a question of efficiency and coverage to my mind. When there's no centralised welfare system, it's commonplace for people to fall through the cracks more, so much so that individual charity cannot really hope to cover everyone that does. So the agency of the people, expressed via centralised institutions, takes care of those that do.

But a mixed system has a different kind of stability - people can feel that they don't have to engage with giving when it is all done automatically for them, and so private charity has a harder time. I think it's unarguable that some form of welfare is necessary (though we may disagree on the optimal extent - actually I'm not sure of your views; maybe we agree, but given that my views are more socialist than yours in general, maybe not), but it is a moral pity that institutionalising the system can make the individual act of giving seem less relevant.

Giving is still a virtue, and one praised by Christianity, but having it arranged for you means that one is much less likely to think about the details of it. I agree that inferring a system of welfare from this particular psalm is a stretch on its own.

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 29, 2016, 03:25AM
Giving is still a virtue, and one praised by Christianity, but having it arranged for you means that one is much less likely to think about the details of it. I agree that inferring a system of welfare from this particular psalm is a stretch on its own.

To me, the question of individual vs communal giving is less important than the problem of blaming the victim/needy person, which seems a recurrent theme from those who oppose the more governmental assistance ideas.  We did discuss that somewhat in Job. 

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 29, 2016, 03:25AM
Giving is still a virtue, and one praised by Christianity, but having it arranged for you means that one is much less likely to think about the details of it. I agree that inferring a system of welfare from this particular psalm is a stretch on its own.

I agree, as that was my point.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Psalm 42 text
Psalm 43 text

Highlights

 - A captive seeks solace through their faith

Summary

Psalm 42
 - The author is eager to perceive Yahweh
 - They recall leading religious processions in Jerusalem
 - They feel depressed and forgotten by Yahweh
 - They are in the control of their enemies

Psalm 43
 - The author asks for Yahweh's supportive judgment
 - In the extremity of their problems
 - Offering to resume their observances towards him once able to

Questions and Observations

1) Here's a commentary on these two psalms, which some think were in earlier times a single psalm. They certainly make narrative sense read back to back.
2) The commentary talks about the author as perhaps being a hostage, and this would certainly fit with the sentiments expressed. The author seems held by their enemies, who do not share their religion.
3) The description of the situation of the person in the narrative is "Of the sons of Korah". There have been two Korahs in the story so far, both in very much more ancient times. It isn't clear which might be meant, or whether some other Korah entirely.
4) The type of song is a "Maskil". I read that this is thought to denote a song giving wisdom.
5) I've been replacing "God" by "Yahweh" throughout, but it occurs to me that this isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion if these songs have the antiquity that they claim.

[ttf_timothy42b]

Are you familiar with the distinction between content and process?

IMO Psalms should be viewed as process and no attempt made to derive content from them.  They are poetical and musical but not literal. 

(Even Psalm 104, frequently cited by YECs to support the Noachian Flood.) 

[ttf_MoominDave]

They're new terms to me, but the distinction seems obvious and sensible. And yes, the psalms do seem much more about 'saying something' than precisely what is said. "Look, we're praising" rather than laying out ideas for us. I suppose the point is to highlight tactics of communication used in the past?

This is why I find Psalms one of the less interesting books of the Bible - in light of which, I find it interesting that others have precisely the opposite perspective. I'm not sure whether I'm missing something or not.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Psalm 44 text

Highlights

 - Yahweh has not favoured the author's causes recently

Summary

 - The author talks of old stories of Yahweh militarily favouring people
 - They pledge trust in him and ask for similar
 - But... They complain that despite their faith Yahweh has not been favouring them recently
 - They plead for him to resume assistance

Questions and Observations

1) There are many candidates for the situation the author might be narrating here in earlier Bible narrative. There have been a great number of military reverses for the heroes of the story. About as many as one would expect in the absence of godly intervention on their side, in fact...

[ttf_MoominDave]

Psalm 45 text

Highlights

 - A woman is urged to associate herself with a particular king

Summary

 - The author admires the king greatly, finding him most handsome and theologically pure
 - They wish him military success
 - They talk of the greatness of Yahweh, and how his blessing is on the king
 - They address their daughter, urging her to impress the king

Questions and Observations

1) Maskil and Sons of Korah again. Would be nice to better understand what these terms mean.
2) Which king is meant? David maybe?
3) This reads rather as if written by a woman, mother to the daughter.
4) In fact it reads rather differently to any that have gone before.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Psalm 46 text

Highlights

 - "God is our refuge"

Summary

 - The author's faith in Yahweh sustains their optimism
 - Whatever obstacles are placed in their way
 - The nations of the earth are nothing compared to Yahweh

Questions and Observations

1) More well known, this one, I think?

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 02, 2016, 07:43AMPsalm 46 text

Highlights

 - "God is our refuge"

Summary

 - The author's faith in Yahweh sustains their optimism
 - Whatever obstacles are placed in their way
 - The nations of the earth are nothing compared to Yahweh

Questions and Observations

1) More well known, this one, I think?

1   God is our refuge and strength,
    a very present help in trouble.

2   Therefore we will not fear though the earth gives way,
    though the mountains be moved into the heart of the sea,

3   though its waters roar and foam,
    though the mountains tremble at its swelling.

Verses 2 and 3 illustrate the fallacy of Man Made Global Warmest. Our God created our planet and everything that goes with it, and He surely has the power to sustain it, no matter what we do. Even though we may fear that the Earth gives way, or mountains may be moved in the middle of the seas, what may happen to our waters as they roar and foam, and mountains swelling.

10 “Be still, and know that I am God.
    I will be exalted among the nations,
    I will be exalted in the earth!”

11  The Lord of hosts is with us;
    the God of Jacob is our fortress.   

He reminds us that He is God and He will always be with us. Passing all the Global Warming laws, and collecting all the carbon taxes in the world, is pure folly, if you put your trust in our Lord, as He continues to promise here in Psalms and throughout scriptures, that He is our Refuge.

Yes, we are also called to be good stewards, and we all believe that as well, but take heed in Who we place our trust.

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 02, 2016, 07:43AMPsalm 46 text

Highlights

 - "God is our refuge"

Summary

 - The author's faith in Yahweh sustains their optimism
 - Whatever obstacles are placed in their way
 - The nations of the earth are nothing compared to Yahweh

Questions and Observations

1) More well known, this one, I think?

This psalm was the source for Luther's A Mighty Fortress is Our God and was probably the most preached on text the Sunday after 9-11.  I know that I preached from that text.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: John the Theologian on Dec 02, 2016, 05:12PMThis psalm was the source for Luther's A Mighty Fortress is Our God and was probably the most preached on text the Sunday after 9-11.  I know that I preached from that text.

I'm fond of the chorale tune to that one. Number 65 in '120 Hymns for Brass Band', a book that's started rehearsals up and down the land for decades...

Quote from: ddickerson on Dec 02, 2016, 08:28AM1   God is our refuge and strength,
    a very present help in trouble.

2   Therefore we will not fear though the earth gives way,
    though the mountains be moved into the heart of the sea,

3   though its waters roar and foam,
    though the mountains tremble at its swelling.

Verses 2 and 3 illustrate the fallacy of Man Made Global Warmest. Our God created our planet and everything that goes with it, and He surely has the power to sustain it, no matter what we do. Even though we may fear that the Earth gives way, or mountains may be moved in the middle of the seas, what may happen to our waters as they roar and foam, and mountains swelling.

10 “Be still, and know that I am God.
    I will be exalted among the nations,
    I will be exalted in the earth!”

11  The Lord of hosts is with us;
    the God of Jacob is our fortress.   

He reminds us that He is God and He will always be with us. Passing all the Global Warming laws, and collecting all the carbon taxes in the world, is pure folly, if you put your trust in our Lord, as He continues to promise here in Psalms and throughout scriptures, that He is our Refuge.

Yes, we are also called to be good stewards, and we all believe that as well, but take heed in Who we place our trust.

I guess I lobbed one up for you when I introduced centralised welfare to a discussion of Psalm 41, so fair's fair.

I forget - do you reject that there is any warming at all? Do you reject that the warming is largely human-driven? We can perhaps simply note my counter that none of the informed professionals reject either of these things and move on without getting distracted into a side-argument. The traditional riposte to that is to look for someone who sounds vaguely informed who does reject it as if that invalidates the general consensus (hint: it doesn't), but even thinking about having that butting-of-heads is making me weary. I think that there is a sound theological case for taking our actions on climate warming seriously, as below. But if you are one of those that insist that facts are otherwise to what is observed, then perhaps there is little point attempting this.

Your final line for me is the key to how you should regard this. We have been extremely negligent stewards in the last couple of hundred years, sparking mass extinctions of species in parallel with an astonishingly fast rise in global temperature average. To talk in your biblical terms, one might think that an omnipotent being was giving us warnings en route to a severe punishment a la Noah. Should we not in light of that seek to become better stewards? Waiting for the catastrophe while continuing to steward badly strikes me as being a glutton for theological punishment.

It also bears saying that to those of us who are not invested in your belief system, this blithe confidence comes across as alarmingly head-in-the-sand behaviour.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Psalm 47 text

Highlights

 - Yay God

Summary

 - Yahweh is supreme over all earth nations
 - Offer him worship

Questions and Observations

1) Seems pretty straightforward...

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quote from: ddickerson on Dec 02, 2016, 08:28AMHe reminds us that He is God and He will always be with us. Passing all the Global Warming laws, and collecting all the carbon taxes in the world, is pure folly, if you put your trust in our Lord, as He continues to promise here in Psalms and throughout scriptures, that He is our Refuge.

Yes, we are also called to be good stewards, and we all believe that as well, but take heed in Who we place our trust.

The Psalms are poetic descriptions of our relationship to God.  It is utter folly to draw scientific conclusions from them.  That is not their purpose.  Stylistically they encourage "poetic license" and as I've said before are more to communicate process than content. 

A glance at a globe shows that North and South America fit neatly into Europe and Africa.  Clearly they were once one continent that has split and is continuing to move apart at a centimeter a year or so, under the influence of plate tectonics.  If God allowed that degree of change to His world, is it so incomprehensible that a few degrees of temperature rise would be possible?

Of course, the reason to deny climate change is to make more money from fossil fuel exploitation.  Gotta show me a Psalm that glorifies greed one of these days.   Or hey, show me ANY passage glorifying greed. 

[ttf_ddickerson]

I've never doubted climate change, but don't accept that mankind is the culprit. Pay all the carbon taxes your little wishes, but don't fool yourself into thinking that paying your fair share of carbon taxes is going to 'fix' manmade global warming, because there is no manmade global warming.

I'm not trying to make scientific statements from the book of Psalms, but showing His promise to us as to being our refuge, and to trust Him, not carbon taxes.

You see, that's really the choice you have. Trust carbon taxes, or trust Him.

[ttf_Baron von Bone]

Well ... there it is--for anyone who actually somehow still doubts religious ideology is the root of the far right.

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: Baron von Bone on Dec 03, 2016, 12:59PMWell ... there it is--for anyone who actually somehow still doubts religious ideology is the root of the far right.

I can see how you might jump to that conclusion, because that is what you want to believe, but it's not the case.

I was making a point from Psalms on a religious topical thread. You see, in a religious thread, it's all about religion, so then, for you to take an illogical jump to claim 'see he's using the bible.....' is ridiculous.  I was just pointing out the harmony between what the Word of God says about our Earth, and what those of us who say that manmade global warming is a hoax.
Not using it to replace common sense and scientific studies.

If you want to look at this issue just from a scientific point, you need to understand first the mathematical concept of orders of magnitude. You have to look at history, how the Earth has been undergoing the same cycles between cold and hot for a whole lot longer than Democrats have been trying to make hey out of the Earth's climate.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Hey Dusty 

Mathematics BSc and Physics MSc here  . The rate of the change that's occurring is on a greater order of magnitude than anything in remotely recent history. Do you like the XKCD comic online? It's regularly funny and/or thought-provoking. Here's a picture from it showing temperature fluctuations over the last 22,000 years. Scroll down the page to see the line change. Note how it's basically vertical the whole way down, then basically horizontal at the bottom. The average temperature has risen 1 degree in the last 50 years or so; the next steepest place on that picture I can find is the rise of 1 degree in 1,000 years or so around 13,000 BC as we came out of an ice age. We are currently experiencing an increase about 20 times faster than that one. A different and greater order of magnitude.

Like I say, I don't particularly want to spark butting of heads on this topic here, but I can't just let bluffing stand. I'd also like to point out that we're worried about this in many parts of the world where your US tribal political division is of zero intrinsic interest, and were for many years before Al Gore brought it to your attention.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Psalm 48 text

Highlights

 - Mount Zion is impressive

Summary

 - Yahweh is great
 - His mountain is great
 - The citadels around it are great
 - Nations united to attack them but were struck with awe and retreated

Questions and Observations

1) "Mount Zion, in the far north"? Where is the writer writing from? For Jerusalem to be far north, maybe somewhere in Arabia?

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: John the Theologian on Dec 02, 2016, 05:12PMThis psalm was the source for Luther's A Mighty Fortress is Our God and was probably the most preached on text the Sunday after 9-11.  I know that I preached from that text.

re:Psalm 46

It is great that Psalms are songs of Love and admiration of God and serve as a reminder to us just how great He is.

I wonder if there would be a way to put a number of songs, hymns and praise and worship songs that have been directly inspired by this book? Too many to count would be my guess.

Thanks John for the reminder that "A mighty fortress of our God" was inspired by this chapter.

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Quote from: ddickerson on Dec 05, 2016, 08:10AMre:Psalm 46

It is great that Psalms are songs of Love and admiration of God and serve as a reminder to us just how great He is.

I wonder if there would be a way to put a number of songs, hymns and praise and worship songs that have been directly inspired by this book? Too many to count would be my guess.

Thanks John for the reminder that "A mighty fortress of our God" was inspired by this chapter.

Thanks, Dusty,


Many older "traditional" hymns were inspired by the Psalms-- Watts, Wesley, etc are good examples.  Some of us in the Reformed tradition still sing metrical versions of the psalms regularly as a part of worship-- some exclusively, but that's an intramural debate among we Reformed types.

Since the NT-- Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16-- explicitly says to sing psalms, I wonder how many professing Christian-- both those of contemporary and traditional worship styles-- can be so blatantly disobedient. and avoid singing them .

My church-- the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and a sister Reformed denomination-- the Untied Reformed Churches-- are in the process of releasing a new Psalter Hymnal that we collaborated on which includes new settings of all 150 psalms.  The tunes are a mixture of old and new.

I'll keep anyone who is interested posted on the release date-- it's imminent.

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quote from: John the Theologian on Dec 05, 2016, 08:43AMMany older "traditional" hymns were inspired by the Psalms-- Watts, Wesley, etc are good examples.  Some of us in the Reformed tradition still sing metrical versions of the psalms regularly as a part of worship-- some exclusively, but that's an intramural debate among we Reformed types.




I set Isaiah 60 to music for an offertory once.  It seemed Psalmlike and appropriate to me.
QuoteArise, shine; for your light has come,
            And the glory of the LORD has risen upon you.
      2“For behold, darkness will cover the earth
            And deep darkness the peoples;
            But the LORD will rise upon you
            And His glory will appear upon you.

      3“Nations will come to your light,
            And kings to the brightness of your rising.
Whooee, did I get in trouble! 

It was a military chaplain, a deeply fundamental evangelical one that day. 

He went into shock and stood frozen while I got through the first couple verses.

Then he stomped over to the organ and said, "That'll be enough of that.  Play Doxology.  NOW!"

The ushers were only a third of the way down the aisle with the collection plates, but I dutifully played Doxology.  (for you non church goers, there is normally some offertory music to cover the fidgeting while the plates are passed, then Doxology is played and sung while the cash is brought forward.) 

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 05, 2016, 08:55AMI set Isaiah 60 to music for an offertory once.  It seemed Psalmlike and appropriate to me.
Whooee, did I get in trouble! 

It was a military chaplain, a deeply fundamental evangelical one that day. 

He went into shock and stood frozen while I got through the first couple verses.

Then he stomped over to the organ and said, "That'll be enough of that.  Play Doxology.  NOW!"

The ushers were only a third of the way down the aisle with the collection plates, but I dutifully played Doxology.  (for you non church goers, there is normally some offertory music to cover the fidgeting while the plates are passed, then Doxology is played and sung while the cash is brought forward.) 


Gee, what music did you set the verses to? "In a gadda da vida"?  Just kidding, don't kill me.

Sounds like an uptight chaplain.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Psalm 49 text

Highlights

 - Do not fixate on worldly wealth

Summary

 - Intro in which the author sings of how wonderful this song is going to be
 - The author asks why they should feel down if surrounded by braggarts who judge themselves by their finances
 - They point out that all die, making these things meaningless in the long run
 - All go to Sheol, but only the faithful escape
 - So do not venerate the rich; without understanding they are nothing

Questions and Observations

1) The tone of the intro is a bit... well... Trumpy, no? "Hear this, it's going to be YUGE." But the central message of the psalm is very much not so.
2) There is no prohibition on growing rich here. But I suppose the moral is that if you find yourself growing rich, you should question whether doing so is warping your thoughts.
3) As so often, it isn't hard to slightly recast the thought into a secular moral of equal worth, taking (2) as a template.
Faith-based: Don't worship wealth because you put your eternal soul in danger.
Secular: Don't worship wealth because you waste your time on earth neglecting your humanity.
The latter, to me, is the intended lesson of the text, if one puts one's feet into the shoes of a hypothetical person setting up the faith from scratch in order to provide a moral framework for society.

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 06, 2016, 02:55AMPsalm 49 text

Highlights

 - Do not fixate on worldly wealth

Summary

 - Intro in which the author sings of how wonderful this song is going to be
 - The author asks why they should feel down if surrounded by braggarts who judge themselves by their finances
 - They point out that all die, making these things meaningless in the long run
 - All go to Sheol, but only the faithful escape
 - So do not venerate the rich; without understanding they are nothing

Questions and Observations

1) The tone of the intro is a bit... well... Trumpy, no? "Hear this, it's going to be YUGE." But the central message of the psalm is very much not so.
2) There is no prohibition on growing rich here. But I suppose the moral is that if you find yourself growing rich, you should question whether doing so is warping your thoughts.
3) As so often, it isn't hard to slightly recast the thought into a secular moral of equal worth, taking (2) as a template.
Faith-based: Don't worship wealth because you put your eternal soul in danger.
Secular: Don't worship wealth because you waste your time on earth neglecting your humanity.
The latter, to me, is the intended lesson of the text, if one puts one's feet into the shoes of a hypothetical person setting up the faith from scratch in order to provide a moral framework for society.


Dave your conclusions at the end are true. Believers and non believers have something to learn and benefit from in this wisdom, but the strong message is in these 4 verses:

12 Man in his pomp will not remain;
   he is like the beasts that perish.

13 This is the path of those who have foolish confidence;
   yet after them people approve of their boasts. Selah

14 Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
   death shall be their shepherd,
   and the upright shall rule over them in the morning.
   Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.

15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol,
   for he will receive me.

The faithful will be rewarded with everlasting life while the rest will experience eternal contempt.

"Hades" normally translates "Sheol", a place of torment ( Luke 16:22-23 ). Similarly, in Christianity, believers who die go immediately to be with the Lord 

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quote from: ddickerson on Dec 06, 2016, 06:56AM"Hades" normally translates "Sheol", a place of torment ( Luke 16:22-23 ). 

Or just as the grave.  There's some disagreement on this one, but OT usage seems to be grave, not place of torment.  NT is mixed. 

QuoteSimilarly, in Christianity, believers who die go immediately to be with the Lord

Not true. 

(It is not true that Christianity universally believes in an instantaneous transit.  Traditionally it was held that a person simply dies, and then later is resurrected, presumably at the Last Day, to receive his final reward.  Some denominations still hold this, while others are more aligned with popular culture notions of the soul traveling, really derived from Greek tradition rather than Christian or Judaic.) 

[ttf_ddickerson]

Thanks Tim.

I was thinking more with the 'final' destination, rather than getting bogged down into other issues.

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quote from: ddickerson on Dec 05, 2016, 03:49PMGee, what music did you set the verses to? "In a gadda da vida"?  Just kidding, don't kill me.

Sounds like an uptight chaplain.

I used a psalm tone, a chord progression where you change chords on the last accented syllable of each line.

I guess it was too papal for him.

Because there was another service following immediately, the procedure was for the chaplain's assistant and the money counter to take the collection downstairs and count immediately, rather than after the service.  The official counting form was not just totals, but you had to notate number of each denomination bills and coins and it had to match the total.  I volunteered to be the permanent money counter so I could avoid the 45 minute rambling stream of consciousness sermon that followed the collection, then return in time to play the final hymn. 

[ttf_MoominDave]

Psalm 50 text

Highlights

 - Do more than simply recite the forms of the liturgy

Summary

 - Yahweh orders all things, and his hand is seen in beauty
 - He gathers his faithful people, in order to address them
 - He tells Israel he has a gripe
 - But it isn't their sacrificial rota, which is bang up to date
 - Rather, he rebukes the wicked among them, for only observing the forms of the rituals
 - Know that he will be able to tell who has been naughty and nice

Questions and Observations

1) Cryptic phrasing here. God "speaks and summons the earth". I think this is simply saying that the author contends that he orders what goes on? It goes on in cryptic vein, so I am not entirely confident in my summarising here.
2) In short, we are deep into metaphorland here.
3) We see a new author credit with this psalm - "A psalm of Asaph". The identity of Asaph is a matter of some speculation, as is precisely what this means regarding its composition.
4) 50 up! That matches the 50 chapters of Genesis for the longest book encountered so far, and takes us to one third completion of the psalms.
5) I quite like the sacred/secular lesson idea, so I'll persist with it for a bit:
Sacred: God will judge you if you do bad while looking good.
Secular: Doing bad while looking good is a hypocrisy that will come back to haunt you.
Essentially, I'm removing the non-physical part of the moral and deciding how to phrase it without reference to things outside the physical world.

[ttf_ddickerson]

To me, God is saying "I'm in control".

It also foretells what it's in the NT description of those who use His name, and the Lord will say 'I don't know you'.

Dave, your secular/sacred comparisons are good, but try Premise/Promise and see what you come up with. This one would be a good one to do that with.

This is also a great Praise and Worship.

[ttf_MoominDave]

I'm not entirely clear what you mean by "Premise/Promise", could you explain again please?

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 07, 2016, 05:59AMI'm not entirely clear what you mean by "Premise/Promise", could you explain again please?

When you read scripture, you usually can interpret God's promises, so, go back and read the premises, in order to receive the promises.

[ttf_MoominDave]

You're being cryptic... Have mercy on a poor non-believer who isn't used to looking for this angle in the text and provide an example.

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 07, 2016, 07:01AMYou're being cryptic... Have mercy on a poor non-believer who isn't used to looking for this angle in the text and provide an example.

OK.

1   The Mighty One, God the Lord,
    speaks and summons the earth
    from the rising of the sun to its setting.
2   Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty,
    God shines forth.
3   Our God comes; he does not keep silence;
    before him is a devouring fire,
    around him a mighty tempest.
4   He calls to the heavens above
    and to the earth, that he may judge his people:
5   “Gather to me my faithful ones,
    who made a covenant with me by sacrifice!”
6   The heavens declare his righteousness,
    for God himself is judge!

Verses 1-3: God is in control
Verses 4-6: God declares that He is a Judging God, but for those that are Faithful, He made a covenant with His Faithful through sacrifices.

So, here He lays out a Premise: If you're Faithful, and follow through with His covenant by making the Sacrifices, the promise will follow.

8   Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you;
    your burnt offerings are continually before me.
9   I will not accept a bull from your house
    or goats from your folds.

Here He is saying, that just performing the sacrifices alone is not enough. This is a point that was badly missed in the OT times. He is clarifying His Premise.

14  Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving,
    and perform your vows to the Most High,
15  and call upon me in the day of trouble;
    I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me.”

But, offer your sacrificing with Thanksgiving - condition of your heart, not just kinetic action - a further clarification of His Premise.

verse 15, And call Me in your trouble - More clarification of His Premise

"I will deliver you" - Promise.


He sums the entire message from this chapter very succinctly, or if I had to summarize the entire chapter in Cliff Note fashion:

23  The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me; - Premise
    to one who orders his way rightly - Premise
    I will show the salvation of God!” - Promise

Dave, this is just one way of many to interpret scripture - using the Premise/Promise method. There are other ways that benefit also, but I find this method easy and helpful when the scripture in question lends itself to this approach.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Okay, I get it. You're looking for pieces of text where a context is described, and then a philosophical tenet within that context is given. I'll look out for moments where this fits.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Psalm 51 text

Highlights

 - David is ashamed

Summary

 - David pleads with Yahweh for forgiveness for his sins
 - He praises the uprightness of Yahweh
 - Asks Yahweh to make him good inside
 - He offers no sacrifice, saying that it would not please Yahweh
 - He says that when Yahweh restores Jerusalem, he will return to that part of the bargain, resuming sacrifice

Questions and Observations

1) We are supplied with a specific context in the heading for this psalm - the first such time? "[...] of David, when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba."
2) A bit presumptuous to assume that sacrifice won't please Yahweh. He's generally rather liked it.
3) And the implied withholding of sacrifice from Yahweh doesn't really fit the power dynamic that we are told to buy into. "Come on, Yahweh, do your stuff, then we'll give you what you want."
4) Can't see any good moral in this one.

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 08, 2016, 06:09AMOkay, I get it. You're looking for pieces of text where a context is described, and then a philosophical tenet within that context is given. I'll look out for moments where this fits.

I call it harmony.

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quote from: ddickerson on Dec 08, 2016, 06:28AMI call it harmony.

The question will always remain whether it was supernaturally intended, vs applied through the bias of the observer. 

[ttf_drizabone]

You guys seem to have been going great despite me being away

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 08, 2016, 06:17AMPsalm 51 text

...

2) A bit presumptuous to assume that sacrifice won't please Yahweh. He's generally rather liked it.
3) And the implied withholding of sacrifice from Yahweh doesn't really fit the power dynamic that we are told to buy into. "Come on, Yahweh, do your stuff, then we'll give you what you want."

Interesting observations. Probably because I've approached the OT from the perspective of the New, your perspective never occurred to me.  It was always "obvious" to me that God is more concerned about what's going on inside our mind than external ceremony, so its surprising to me that this passage would be the first to express that. 

Its easy to think back to Abraham and point out how he was justified because he trusted God rather than by what he did, and while that's in the OT narrative it may be the NT emphais that makes it easy for me to see that.

In Judges we saw the pattern that the Hebrews would get slack, things would go bad for them, they would call out for help and God would save them.  Rinse/repeat.  So, its a different perspective,  but it wasn't the case that they wanted God to do his stuff first then either.

In Exodus the law was given to establish a treaty between God and Israel to define what was expected in the relationship and to establish Israel as a nation, a community with a common set of rules that would identify them. The OT paints how Israel relate to God in terms of a personal relationship rather than a "power dynamic" when it talks about Israel as God's son, and also in terms of marriage and how he loved them.

Another purpose of the Law was as a way of teaching Israel about sin and holiness, but that's a NT perspective too.

The way I see it is that God wants us to repent, plead for mercy and then do the right stuff.  Doing the right stuff without having the right relationship is pointless and insulting. 

And I read v16 as David wasn't withholding the sacrifice in a power dynamic, but saying saying that he thought that God wouldn't be happy with it, or else he would give it.  ie he recognised that God wanted something more. 

That was pretty rambling wasn't it.  It seems to me to be a very significant piece of scripture.


Quote4) Can't see any good moral in this one.

How about: In an important relationship its critical to identify what holds the relationship together and to work on that, not just the external appearance.

So if you hurt someone close to you, deal with the cause of the hurt: repent, apologise and seek forgiveness and don't just paper over the cracks and pretend that everything is good.

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 08, 2016, 06:47AMThe question will always remain whether it was supernaturally intended, vs applied through the bias of the observer. 

My bias is Faith based.

[ttf_drizabone]

Psalm 52 text

Highlights

 - what are you going to trust in

Summary

 - David tells of a mighty man who boasts of evil but the love of God is steadfast
 - He says how God will destroy that man who trusted in his own riches
 - And in contrast, he trusts in the Lord and will contrinually thank him

Questions and Observations

1) This psalm is about the episode in 1 Samuel 21-22 where David sought advice from a priest.  Doeg who was a servant of Saul told Saul and then later killed all the priests.

2) I suppose you could think that David is saying how good he is, but I think that point is between trusting in God's love and trusting in evil.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Dec 08, 2016, 06:39PMYou guys seem to have been going great despite me being away

Good to see you back! Hope the trip was splendid.

It's interesting to me to see how the Psalms have drawn out contributions from more posters - only one summary so far, Dusty's Psalm 25, but anyone is encouraged to jump in with the next one scheduled at any time. As I said a few posts above, Psalms is for me naturally some of the less interesting material here, but the interaction with others is bringing it to life - it's material that seems intended to offer motivational examples of good practice to believers, and seeing what attitudes believers take away from them is very much the point.

I've been happy to read much of this as a variably reliable history textbook thus far, but these require a different approach, as Tim said above.

Quote from: drizabone on Dec 08, 2016, 07:26PMAnd I read v16 as David wasn't withholding the sacrifice in a power dynamic, but saying saying that he thought that God wouldn't be happy with it, or else he would give it.  ie he recognised that God wanted something more. 
I dunno... David was a pretty self-absorbed character by the biblical account. This was a time and place in which the conflation of kings and gods was not unheard-of - for example in Egypt, where pharoahs were sometimes worshipped. Regardless of whether the early kingdom Israelites might have used such concepts, they would have been known locally. It doesn't feel out of character to have him address Yahweh as an equal.

But these texts are so pliable that you can read it either way without forcing things logically.

Quote from: drizabone on Dec 08, 2016, 07:26PMHow about: In an important relationship its critical to identify what holds the relationship together and to work on that, not just the external appearance.

So if you hurt someone close to you, deal with the cause of the hurt: repent, apologise and seek forgiveness and don't just paper over the cracks and pretend that everything is good.

I find it interesting to compare the Christian concept of divine judgment with the Hindu concept of karma. Both link the merits of one's deeds with consequences, and it's easy to see why the subject is important enough that several major religions make it a foundational one - there will always be those who will do bad if they can see no bad outcome to themselves resulting from their actions. Different ways of approaching it - in this paradigm there is an overseer in the sky who will reckon up your tally at the end, punishing those that haven't behaved well; in the Hindu paradigm (and that of several other Eastern religions too), the quality of your deeds is accounted similarly, by some mystical means, resulting in either (depending on your choice of religious position) later rebirth in accordance with your actions or appropriate responses happening to you in your later life.

The last of these I can more or less get behind (if we leave out any non-physical action), seeing the enlightened self-interests of those around one as the mechanism. The old phrase "What goes around comes around" I rather like. It isn't guaranteed, but act like enough of a jerk, and you'll get found out. In a less civilised world, I can well see that finding stronger ways to bind this lesson into minds would have been a very natural thing to do.

Quote from: drizabone on Dec 08, 2016, 11:41PMPsalm 52 text

And this psalm too is for me all about karma, to use the word in the looser sense that I subscribed to above, meaning "one gets what one deserves". If I might attempt to split a moral:
Sacred: If you do bad, God will get you
Secular: What goes around comes around
(I do like that phrase)

[ttf_MoominDave]

Psalm 53 text

Highlights

 - Belief in Yahweh was in a weak phase

Summary

 - Those that do not believe in Yahweh are stupid and evil
 - Yahweh looks for believers and finds none at all
 - The author laments the decline of Yahweh-belief and visualises Yahweh doing nasty things to non-believers
 - They wish for Yahweh-belief to grow again

Questions and Observations

1) A well-known opening this one, giving a quick and easy statement of othering of non-insiders. I guess I must be a fool by the definition of this psalm. Also corrupt, a doer of abominable things and nothing that is good. Thank you, Mr(s) Psalmist. No wonder some Christians look down on those that aren't.
2) Some hyperbole follows - no believers at all? What, not even the author? Seems a contradiction.
3) This seems an unhappy piece of verse. The author feels isolated in their faith and curses those that think otherwise. Not the kind of welcoming and giving sentiments that represent the good side of Christianity.
4) Struggling drawing out a very satisfactory moral from this one too. It is such a very partisan piece of writing.

[ttf_ddickerson]

"No wonder some Christians look down on those that aren't."

That's not a Christian trait. Now, I know that some may do that, but that's not scripturally correct. We are sinners just as much as those that don't believe at all. Now, some accept God's Mercy and Grace, and others reject Him.