TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:26 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 09, 2016, 02:30AM...in this paradigm there is an overseer in the sky who will reckon up your tally at the end, punishing those that haven't behaved well

Actually that is only the first part of the christian paradigm (at least from a non-mainstream protestant point of view) and even then its not a about accumulating points.

The whole thing is

1: God judges us
2: and finds us all guilty and not worthy of moving into his kingdom
3: But if we recognise that, he forgives us and makes us right.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:41 pm

Psalm 54 text

Highlights

- David asks and expects God to save him.

Summary

- David beseeches God to save him because stranges seek to kill him
- He says that God is on his side against his enemies
- David expects God to save him and promises to make thank offerings to God

Questions and Observations

1) David considers that his enemies do not follow God. Is this justified?

ttf_Baron von Bone · Post by **ttf_Baron von Bone** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:24 am

Quote from: drizabone on Dec 09, 2016, 03:26PMThe whole thing is

1: God judges us
2: and finds us all guilty and not worthy of moving into his kingdom
3: But if we recognise that, he forgives us and makes us right.
The rather problematic part that's missing:
1: God judges us [for being precisely the way he created us]
2: and finds us all guilty [for being precisely the way he created us] and not worthy of moving into his kingdom
3: But if we recognise that, he forgives us [for being precisely the way he created us] and makes us "right" [but yet always deeply flawed].

This is what Einstein was talking about when he said:
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation ...

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:01 am

Quote from: Baron von Bone on Dec 11, 2016, 07:24AM
The rather problematic part that's missing:
1: God judges us [for being precisely the way he created us]
2: and finds us all guilty [for being precisely the way he created us] and not worthy of moving into his kingdom
3: But if we recognise that, he forgives us [for being precisely the way he created us] and makes us "right" [but yet always deeply flawed].

This is what Einstein was talking about when he said:
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation ...

If you're referring to Him giving us Freedom of Choice, as opposed to Robots, as being flawed, then there is that.

ttf_John the Theologian · Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:56 pm

Quote from: Baron von Bone on Dec 11, 2016, 07:24AM
The rather problematic part that's missing:
1: God judges us [for being precisely the way he created us]
2: and finds us all guilty [for being precisely the way he created us] and not worthy of moving into his kingdom
3: But if we recognise that, he forgives us [for being precisely the way he created us] and makes us "right" [but yet always deeply flawed].

This is what Einstein was talking about when he said:
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation ...

While you may believe this, it is not an accurate representation of the biblical story line. Genesis 3 tells the account of the fall. You may reject it, but the biblical narrative says in Genesis 1 that God created us very good and that human rebellion is a rebellion from that state. That's a very different narrative than saying that God is judging us being precisely how he created us.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:56 pm

Quote from: John the Theologian on Dec 11, 2016, 01:56PMWhile you may believe this, it is not an accurate representation of the biblical story line. Genesis 3 tells the account of the fall. You may reject it, but the biblical narrative says in Genesis 1 that God created us very good and that human rebellion is a rebellion from that state. That's a very different narrative than saying that God is judging us being precisely how he created us.

So, God couldn't have known that if He placed temptation in front of man, man would be incapable of resisting?

ttf_John the Theologian · Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:20 pm

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 11, 2016, 04:56PMSo, God couldn't have known that if He placed temptation in front of man, man would be incapable of resisting?

Different issue. Historic Christians have addressed this issue in a couple of ways, but always with the proviso that God created the world good and that humanity is responsible for the Fall, even though it was not only foreknown, but also foreordained in the Biblical sense. Check out any traditional theology or apologetics texts for those details. This forum doesn't have the time or space to discuss that.

My point is that the biblical story line simply doesn't unfold as BvB laid it, regardless of what his beliefs about the subject happen to be.

ttf_Baron von Bone · Post by **ttf_Baron von Bone** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:59 pm

Quote from: John the Theologian on Dec 11, 2016, 05:20PMMy point is that the biblical story line simply doesn't unfold as BvB laid it, regardless of what his beliefs about the subject happen to be.
Perhaps not, if you don't believe in an omnipotent god. If you do believe in an omnipotent god though, there's no way around it. Omnipotent = the entirety of creation is precisely as intended in every aspect. IOW it wouldn't be this way unless it's precisely the way God wanted it to be, so he would therefore be entirely responsible for every aspect. Almost all apologetic responses either limit omnipotence (which can work) or ignore the unavoidable implication that it could have been any other way an omnipotent being wanted it to be (as in the case of free will).

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:48 pm

Quote from: Baron von Bone on Dec 11, 2016, 07:24AM
This is what Einstein was talking about when he said:
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation ...

I don't understand your point. Do you want us to conclude that if Einstein couldn't imagine God, that no-one could. That would be unexpected because if God wasn't imagined then he would be either virtual or real?

But you probably meant something else. What was that?

ttf_Baron von Bone · Post by **ttf_Baron von Bone** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:59 pm

Quote from: drizabone on Dec 11, 2016, 06:48PMI don't understand your point. Do you want us to conclude that if Einstein couldn't imagine God, that no-one could. That would be unexpected because if God wasn't imagined then he would be either virtual or real?

But you probably meant something else. What was that?
I meant that this is what Einstein was talking about when he said:
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation ...

You can follow up with Einstein's stuff if you're interested in more on his take. That's not really the issue. My take is just the same in this particular point--that the traditional notion of God is incoherent, in part due to the concept of judgment and in terms of its supernatural social geography and how they're connected. It's not that he (or I) can't imagine a god or gods, it's that the traditional concept of God doesn't hold up under much scrutiny--that if believers weren't too sold on it to get out of their own way they would be quite able to spot such problems as well. Instead we get the far more chronic and detached version of Copernicus and the Church vs. Kepler (et al) and the data (epicycles upon epicycles upon epicycles, or in other words from there it's turtles all the way down).

But this also seems like a distraction from the point of the topic, so it should probably be moved ... no? I'll leave that up to you guys who are into the project and all. I gather some discussion is part of the point, but how much is entirely up to yous.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:17 pm

Quote from: Baron von Bone on Dec 11, 2016, 07:59PMBut this also seems like a distraction from the point of the topic, so it should probably be moved ... no? I'll leave that up to you guys who are into the project and all. I gather some discussion is part of the point, but how much is entirely up to yous.

I agree, and we're probably just going to end up rehashing old discussions.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:18 pm

Psalm 55 text

Highlights

- Cast your burden on The Lord

Summary

- David asks The Lord to listen to his plea for mercy
- he is in anguish and wants to escape his tormentors
- He asks that the Lord destroy his enemy
- He says that his anguish is unbearable because it is a friend who is now tormenting him
- He expresses his confidence that The Lord will save him
- He recounts how his friend betrayed him
- He advises the righteous to give their burdens to The Lord
- and says that The Lord will cast down the unrighteous
- But he will trust The Lord.

Questions and Observations

1) Once again David is in emotional turmoil because he is under attack. But this time it is intolerable because it is a friend who has betrayed him.
2) v 22 and 23 seem to be a general application of God's protection for David to "the righteous" and sim for his enemies and men of "blood and treachery"

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:20 am

Psalm 56 text

Highlights

- The author is faithful in a time of reverses

Summary

- The author asks for favour from Yahweh, as they feel in the power of their enemies
- They talk of their sorrow, and of Yahweh's noting of it
- They further pledge themselves to Yahweh

Questions and Observations

1) The strange superscription is thought to tell us which secular tune to sing it to.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:24 am

Psalm 57 text

Highlights

- The author is still faithful in a time of reverses

Summary

- The author asks for favour from Yahweh, as they feel in the power of their enemies
- They talk of their problems
- They talk of Yahweh's greatness

Questions and Observations

1) Pretty much the same sentiments as Psalm 56, no?

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:00 pm

Psalm 58 text

Highlights

- the righteous will rejoice when God judges the wicked

Summary

- are you Lords righteous? "No"
- the wicked are bad from birth
- God completely destroy them
- the righteous will rejoice when the wicked are destroyed

Questions and Observations

1) "you gods" in v1 can also be translated as "you Lords". To me, the psalmist seems to be aiming his charge and request for punishment at other rulers rather than false gods.

2) The idea of good people rejoicing at the punishment of others seems "unchristian" and is probably distasteful to cultured atheists too. Do bad people deserve to be punished? Should good people be glad when they are?

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:05 pm

Psalm 59 text

Highlights

- save me from my enemies

Summary

- save me from my enemies who lie in wait to kill me
- don't kill them, but make them examples of what happens to sinners
- I will praise you because you love and protect me

Questions and Observations

1)

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:55 am

Quote from: drizabone on Dec 13, 2016, 03:00PM Psalm 58 text

2) The idea of good people rejoicing at the punishment of others seems "unchristian" and is probably distasteful to cultured atheists too. Do bad people deserve to be punished? Should good people be glad when they are?

It certainly doesn't seem consistent with the later teachings of Jesus. And schadenfreude is not a concept that we are culturally comfortable with (the clue's in the word). But we have seen plenty of occasions as we've gone through the Old Testament where what is related doesn't seem to mesh beautifully well with what is later related.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:03 am

Psalm 60 text

Highlights

- Military success; thank you Yahweh

Summary

- The author talks of how Yahweh abandoned them in time of need
- But then they came through
- This they attribute to Yahweh

Questions and Observations

1) Stephen Fry is evidently a fan of verse 8 of this psalm...

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:48 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 14, 2016, 02:55AMIt certainly doesn't seem consistent with the later teachings of Jesus.
It takes considerable mental gymnastics to read the OT through the lens of Jesus.

The early church father Marcion denied that Yahweh was related, based on the difference in character.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:50 am

Thanks Tim, that's new info to me. Marcion of Sinope.
He belongs to that period when the early Christian church was still marshalling its theological positions into an order that feels more or less consistent.

It is certainly reasonable to look at the actions described in Old and New Testaments and feel that they are driven by motivations of separate character. I read that Marcion considered Yahweh subservient to the God of the NT, which is certainly one way to resolve the conflict. It wasn't a way to the taste of the rest of the hierarchy of the church though, and it was declared a heresy in 144 AD.

I suppose the stance weakens feelings of legitimacy in Jesus as a prophetic fulfillment - if what was performed in the name of Yahweh was in fact done for a less-than-top-level god, it feels less impressive. Further in that direction, an even more logical conclusion might be to assert that Yahweh didn't need to exist for Jesus to be who he claimed, but that makes the pragmatic problem with the line of thought obvious, knocking away the desired support completely. New religions do not tend to grow from nothing - rather, they tend to be significant twists on existing religions that appropriate ceremonies, traditions, and believers from the branch from which they grew. A Christianity that denied Judaism would not have flourished; even the Christianity of Marcion that minimised the role of Judaism did not survive long in the grand scheme of things (a few hundreds of years).

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:55 am

Psalm 61 text

Highlights

- David needs Yahweh's help

Summary

- The author talks of David's weakness
- And appeals to Yahweh
- Offering him worship

Questions and Observations

1) In contrast to the detailed superscriptions of recent psalms, this one is simply "Of David".

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:55 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 14, 2016, 02:55AMIt certainly doesn't seem consistent with the later teachings of Jesus.

I don't think so, but we'll discuss it when we get to the gospels.

QuoteAnd schadenfreude is not a concept that we are culturally comfortable with (the clue's in the word). But we have seen plenty of occasions as we've gone through the Old Testament where what is related doesn't seem to mesh beautifully well with what is later related.

That's a pretty obscure clue when you don't know what the word means. Where would we be without google.

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 14, 2016, 04:48AMIt takes considerable mental gymnastics to read the OT through the lens of Jesus.

It will be interesting to see what differences we see in Jesus when we get to the NT.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:21 am

Quote from: drizabone on Dec 14, 2016, 06:55PMI don't think so, but we'll discuss it when we get to the gospels.
I think there's a lot of fruitful ground to cover when this happens.

Quote from: drizabone on Dec 14, 2016, 06:55PMThat's a pretty obscure clue when you don't know what the word means. Where would we be without google.
Sorry!

Following your footsteps, I'm amused by a phrase early on in the Wikipedia article on it...
"Schadenfreude can be enjoyed in private or it can be celebrated openly."
Sounds like a wine recommendation... Just remember to drink your vintage schadenfreude from a brown paper bag if enjoying it in public...

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:32 am

Psalm 62 text

Highlights

- Use faith to strengthen yourself to do the right thing

Summary

- The author waits patiently for Yahweh
- They observe those that seek to bring them down
- Humanity is ephemeral, so don't make things worse while you're here
- It is promised that people will get what their actions deserve

Questions and Observations

1) Again I find myself thinking strongly of karmic ideas in reading a psalm.
2) A moral?
Sacred: Trust in God, he will ultimately rebalance things left out of balance
Secular: What goes around comes around (again!)
3) And I think we can make Dusty's premise/promise idea work here too:
Premise: Things may look unfair right now
Promise: But God will sort it out in time

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:27 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 15, 2016, 01:32AM Psalm 62 text

Highlights

- Use faith to strengthen yourself to do the right thing

Summary

- The author waits patiently for Yahweh
- They observe those that seek to bring them down
- Humanity is ephemeral, so don't make things worse while you're here
- It is promised that people will get what their actions deserve

Questions and Observations

1) Again I find myself thinking strongly of karmic ideas in reading a psalm.
2) A moral?
Sacred: Trust in God, he will ultimately rebalance things left out of balance
Secular: What goes around comes around (again!)
3) And I think we can make Dusty's premise/promise idea work here too:
Premise: Things may look unfair right now
Promise: But God will sort it out in time

Where is the premise? God says if you are/do xxxx then I promise you yyy.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:52 am

Psalm 63 text

Highlights

- My soul thirsts for you

Summary

- The psalmist declares how good God is and how that makes him want more
- in comparison those who seek to kill him will be destroyed

Questions and Observations

1) I can see how being in the desert/wilderness and thirsting for water has influenced the ideas in this psalm.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:59 am

Psalm 64 text

Highlights

- God judges the baddies

Summary

- David asks God to protect him from his enemies
- God brings them to ruin
- People ponder what has happened and the righteous rejoice.

Questions and Observations

1) another psalm where the goodies rejoice when God judges the baddies

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:05 pm

Psalm 65text

Highlights

- Praise God

Summary

- God is praised because
   - he atones for sin and blesses those he brings into his temple
    - he does amazing powerful things
   - he bountifully provides for the earth

Questions and Observations

1) this psalm is thought to be for the Day of Atonement

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:10 pm

Psalm 66 text

Highlights

- Praise God

Summary

- Everyone praise God!
- Come and see what he has done and rejoice
- You have bought us through trials to a place of abundance
- I will worship you
- Everyone come and listen to me testify about God

Questions and Observations

1)

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:15 pm

Psalm 67 text

Highlights

- Everyone praise God

Summary

- God be gracious to us so we can praise you to the nations
- Let everyone praise you
- Everything is good. Everyone should fear the Lord.

Questions and Observations

1) I think 'fear' means to think he is awesome

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:48 pm

Psalm 68 text

Highlights

- God: victorious

Summary

- God will drive away his enemies and makes the righteous glad
- Sing praises to the Lord who rides through the deserts and gives the prisoners prosperity
- it rained abundantly when you led us and there was good news about your victories
- You were mighty and everyone was jealous
- Praise to God our salvation
- All the people celebrate as you come to your home
- You rule and the nations come bearing gifts
- Everyone, praise God, for he is mighty and awesome.

Questions and Observations

1) This Psalm recounts the Exodus. and quotes from Numbers 10
2) But the first few verses are in future tense: the Psalm is looking forward to God doing the same thing in the future.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:05 pm

Psalm 69 text

Highlights

- Save me, I'm nearly dead

Summary

- Save me God, I'm nearly dead
- Everyone hates me, with and without cause
- don't let anyone be disappointed in you because of me
- I've become a pariah for you
- I ask that you save me when you are ready
- please do it soon
- you know my shame - everyone reproached me
- punish those who torment me, your servant
- I am afflicted - save me
- I will praise God and encourage the faithful
- Let everything praise God because he will restore Zion to the People.

Questions and Observations

1) according to the Lillies? I wonder what these ascriptions mean.
2) David possibly wrote this about himself, but it is ultimately about Jesus on the cross (IMO)

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:10 pm

Psalm 70 text

Highlights

- God, save me quick (short version)

Summary

- God hurry up and save me
- put my enemies to shame
- may everyone who looks to you for salvation rejoice
- I need you Lord, save me quick

Questions and Observations

1) This seems to be a shorter version of Psalm 69.

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:21 pm

Quote from: drizabone on Dec 18, 2016, 12:48PM Psalm 68 text

2) But the first few verses are in future tense: the Psalm is looking forward to God doing the same thing in the future.

Faith. God is the same yesterday and tomorrow. Praise Him for who He is and sing His praises that our God keeps all His promises.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:41 am

Psalm 71 text

Highlights

- David says that he will be faithful in his old age

Summary

- Be my refuge to which I may continually come
- Rescue me from the unjest man because you are my hope
- I will continue to praise you, do not cast me off as I get old
- May my accusers be put to shame as I continually praise you
- Do not forsake me in my old age, as I proclaim your might to another generation
- I will continue to witness to youm as those who sought to hurt me are put to shame

Questions and Observations

1) The psalmist (aka David) is sure that he will be faithful to God and prays that God will continue to be his refuge so that he can tell the next generation about him.
2) I on the other hand are less confident about my faithfulness than God's.

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:14 am

Quote from: drizabone on Dec 19, 2016, 02:41AM Psalm 71 text

Highlights

- David says that he will be faithful in his old age

Summary

- Be my refuge to which I may continually come
- Rescue me from the unjest man because you are my hope
- I will continue to praise you, do not cast me off as I get old
- May my accusers be put to shame as I continually praise you
- Do not forsake me in my old age, as I proclaim your might to another generation
- I will continue to witness to youm as those who sought to hurt me are put to shame

Questions and Observations

1) The psalmist (aka David) is sure that he will be faithful to God and prays that God will continue to be his refuge so that he can tell the next generation about him.
2) I on the other hand are less confident about my faithfulness than God's.

2 thoughts not necessarily biblical:
1 - a lot of Christians become saved in their old age after a life of sin. A lot become saved on their death bed. Seems David here fits that description somewhat even though, he has always worshipped his God.
2 - Paul described his inability to live like he should, but David is promising God that he will keep his commitment.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:12 am

Big difference between David and Paul, though.

David may have some regrets as he aged, but he did not consider himself in need of salvation. That concept did not exist in his time. The idea of needing a savior arises thousands of years later. (needing a good battle captain, on the other hand......)

Paul on the other hand does seem to consider himself a sinner in need of redemption.

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:40 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 19, 2016, 08:12AMBig difference between David and Paul, though.

David may have some regrets as he aged, but he did not consider himself in need of salvation. That concept did not exist in his time. The idea of needing a savior arises thousands of years later. (needing a good battle captain, on the other hand......)

Paul on the other hand does seem to consider himself a sinner in need of redemption.

They may have not used those words, but believe me he knew he was saved and would go to Heaven.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:48 am

Quote from: ddickerson on Dec 19, 2016, 09:40AMThey may have not used those words, but believe me he knew he was saved and would go to Heaven.

I'm not sure who the he is you're referencing.

David neither knew that he needed saving nor that Heaven existed. You're reading the OT through the lens of your modern beliefs, not for what it actually says, which is disrespectful of the Scriptures.

Paul did seem to perceive a need for personal salvation and did seem confident of his reward in the next life. (Despite never having read the Gospels.)

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:03 pm

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 19, 2016, 09:48AMI'm not sure who the he is you're referencing.

David neither knew that he needed saving nor that Heaven existed. You're reading the OT through the lens of your modern beliefs, not for what it actually says, which is disrespectful of the Scriptures.

Paul did seem to perceive a need for personal salvation and did seem confident of his reward in the next life. (Despite never having read the Gospels.)

You're one for lecturing on being disrespectful of the scriptures. LOL!

ttf_Piano man · Post by **ttf_Piano man** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:44 pm

I've been following this thread since it started, and it's interesting. DD, I think what you're missing is that they're just trying to sum up what's actually in the Bible, not put their own stuff in there.

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:58 pm

Quote from: Piano man on Dec 19, 2016, 12:44PMI've been following this thread since it started, and it's interesting. DD, I think what you're missing is that they're just trying to sum up what's actually in the Bible, not put their own stuff in there.

This thread has an open invitation for everybody to comment. It would be nice, if all participants didn't categorize other people's comments with pejorative terms. I wasn't missing anything. He claimed that I was disrespecting scripture.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:03 pm

Quote from: ddickerson on Dec 19, 2016, 04:58PM He claimed that I was disrespecting scripture.

My position is that adding anything to scripture (and this includes some apologetic explanations that contradict the text) are disrespectful.

Subtraction of less certain elements doesn't bother me the same way.

ttf_Baron von Bone · Post by **ttf_Baron von Bone** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:05 pm

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 19, 2016, 05:03PMMy position is that adding anything to scripture (and this includes some apologetic explanations that contradict the text) are disrespectful.

Subtraction of less certain elements doesn't bother me the same way.
That's all because you understand the concept of integrity on an actual, applied level rather than just as a positive label.

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:58 pm

I see this as becoming a 'downer' place to share thoughts on scripture.

ttf_Baron von Bone · Post by **ttf_Baron von Bone** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:08 pm

Matthew 7 has something to say about that.

You may do okay if you take it slow though ... it can take a while to get over the fear of potential error and change when you've never allowed yourself to be genuinely exposed to those potentials, or to ideas that don't already have your home community's stamp of approval. Ideally you won't have to keep it shallow, but that's a way to manage those same kinds of fears as well. Refusing to deal with them is the worst option--they don't go away by being ignored, and reality doesn't care how we feel about it.

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:22 pm

Quote from: Baron von Bone on Dec 19, 2016, 07:08PMMatthew 7 has something to say about that.

You may do okay if you take it slow though ... it can take a while to get over the fear of potential error and change when you've never allowed yourself to be genuinely exposed to those potentials, or to ideas that don't already have your home community's stamp of approval. Ideally you won't have to keep it shallow, but that's a way to manage those same kinds of fears as well. Refusing to deal with them is the worst option--they don't go away by being ignored, and reality doesn't care how we feel about it.

There you go again being a troll.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:30 am

Chaps, take a chill pill... I know we've all been hanging around in the same place for a long time now, and I know strong words have regularly been exchanged (I'm far from innocent there myself, that's for sure). There is room in this thread for people to record their individual faith responses to particular bits of text, particularly in this devotional section, the raw material for which is long on emotion but short on description. Hearing what Dusty makes of these is, for me anyhow, deepening my understanding of how these texts get approached in practice. And I hope that he and everyone else are getting something similar out of it. New perspectives and all that.

Psalm 72 text

Highlights

- Yahweh, please support Solomon

Summary

- The author urges Yahweh to cast his eye upon Solomon
- Implicitly, to see his suitableness, and encourage him to continue in the same
- To aid him in the establishment of his earthly power
- Observing Solomon's aid to the weak
- Yahweh is good

Questions and Observations

1) This psalm concludes the second of the five sub-books of Psalms.
2) The final verse - does this tell us that the text is intended to be addressed by David to Yahweh on Solomon's behalf?

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:02 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 20, 2016, 03:30AMChaps, take a chill pill... I know we've all been hanging around in the same place for a long time now, and I know strong words have regularly been exchanged (I'm far from innocent there myself, that's for sure). There is room in this thread for people to record their individual faith responses to particular bits of text, particularly in this devotional section, the raw material for which is long on emotion but short on description. Hearing what Dusty makes of these is, for me anyhow, deepening my understanding of how these texts get approached in practice. And I hope that he and everyone else are getting something similar out of it. New perspectives and all that.

Psalm 72 text

Highlights

- Yahweh, please support Solomon

Summary

- The author urges Yahweh to cast his eye upon Solomon
- Implicitly, to see his suitableness, and encourage him to continue in the same
- To aid him in the establishment of his earthly power
- Observing Solomon's aid to the weak
- Yahweh is good

Questions and Observations

1) This psalm concludes the second of the five sub-books of Psalms.
2) The final verse - does this tell us that the text is intended to be addressed by David to Yahweh on Solomon's behalf?

From ESV Romans 13:1
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."

This is a prayer from David to bless his son, but his son is the King, and illustrates the connection between God and the powers that be.

As Christians today, we pray for our leaders in government from the top on down to our local leaders.

18 Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel,
who alone does wondrous things.
19 Blessed be his glorious name forever;
may the whole earth be filled with his glory!
Amen and Amen!

What a wonderful Praise for our Lord!

This past Sunday we performed 'Wonderful Saviour". You can tell that the songwriters that are writing praise and worship have spent a lot of their time in Psalms.

ttf_John the Theologian · Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:26 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 19, 2016, 08:12AMBig difference between David and Paul, though.

David may have some regrets as he aged, but he did not consider himself in need of salvation. That concept did not exist in his time. The idea of needing a savior arises thousands of years later. (needing a good battle captain, on the other hand......)

Paul on the other hand does seem to consider himself a sinner in need of redemption.

If we take the heading to Psalm 51 seriously-- which is in all of the copies of the text we have-- then the statement that David didn't see himself in need of "salvation" seems problematic. Consciousness of sin and the need for cleansing and forgiveness as well as the help of the Holy Spirit sure sound awfully similar to many of the categories of New Testament "salvation."

It seems like some of the above quote is a quibbling over exact words rather than the broader concepts. Concepts of blessing and curse, covenant, promise and deliverance, redemption, steadfast love (the Hebrew word hesed) righteousness, etc. are also "salvation" terms. Perhaps your definition salvation needs to be a bit broader. Most Old Testament scholars of every camp see them as such. Whole "theologies of the Old Testament" have been written around categories of "salvation" such as these from a variety of theological viewpoints.

Other OT texts-- especially Isaiah 40-66 explicitly uses the language of salvation on multiple occasions. The Isaiah texts certainly are later-- how late depending on when one dates them-- but they are OT, not New Testament.