TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:28 am

Psalm 98 text

Highlights

- Make a joyful noise

Summary

- Sing to Yahweh
- He favours the Israelites
- Everyone knows it
- Sing some more please
- Yahweh will judge all

Questions and Observations

1) "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord" - an oft-quoted phrase.
2) Rather a theme developing here... Yahweh is marvellous... Sing to him, he likes it... He'll come to judge you all in time... The last few have all followed this thematic pattern.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:37 am

Psalm 99 text

Highlights

- Yay God (again)

Summary

- Yahweh is boss
- He likes fairness
- Moses, Aaron, and Samuel are given as examples of people that talked to him
- Please worship Yahweh

Questions and Observations

1) "He sits enthroned upon the cherubim" - Yahweh uses angels as a seat? Surely a metaphor? Or not?
2) The "but an avenger of their wrongdoings" line in verse 8 I think hints at the purpose of this psalm - it's another plea to Yahweh to squash enemies. But more subtly phrased than usual.
3) Mild apologies for the flippant summary above, but I'm running out of things to say about reading the same stuff over and over again...

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:40 am

Psalm 100 text

Highlights

- Make more joyful noises

Summary

- Sing to Yahweh
- Yahweh controls people
- Offer him worship
- He is good

Questions and Observations

1) Ah, perhaps this psalm is the one quoted when people write "make a joyful noise", not 98?
2) 100 psalms down, 50 to go... I must admit, this marathon feels like a slog to me in a way that it hasn't going through any earlier book.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:45 am

Psalm 101 text

Highlights

- The author pledges to be Yahweh's agent

Summary

- The author proposes to sing to Yahweh of good things
- They will obey the relevant moral rules
- They will fight those that don't
- And favour those that do

Questions and Observations

1) "Of David" again, after a number of unsuperscripted chapters.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:07 pm

I'm back from a week camping in the rain. What fun.

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 02, 2017, 10:43AM Psalm 90 text

Highlights

- Yahweh is a large concept

much to large to have been dreamed of by a bunch of barbarians

Quote1) "A prayer of Moses"? Similarly to before, I am assuming that in reality this means a piece of work written by a later author intended to be words that Moses could have said.

the Psalm is consistent with Moses experience: maybe he did write it.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:36 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 03, 2017, 03:42AM Psalm 91 text

...

1) The first stanza is pretty much a tautology - 'one who orders their life in this fashion orders their life in this fashion'.

pretty much, but that's how Hebrew poetry works: they repeat clauses with similar or opposite meanings like we repeat similar sounds at the end of lines.

Quote2) "The snare of the fowler" - is this a metaphor or literal?

I'm pretty sure this is a metaphor

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:49 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 03, 2017, 03:53AM Psalm 93 text

...

2) But mysterious. What's the stuff about flooding? This says that it refers to the creation legend.

That would be where God moved put the oceans in place to allow space for land and air hence showing his power over the chaotic and uncontrollable seas. I think that this also is a metaphor, but I know some disagree.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:56 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 04, 2017, 05:12AM Psalm 94 text

...

- The author calls on Yahweh to smite their enemies
- They lament the dominance some enemies have over them
- They take heart in their faith in the face of reverses

this covers the same theme as ps92 where the fools don't realise that they will ultimately be subject to God's wrath.

Quote1) The opening to this psalm is striking, calling Yahweh "God of vengeance". Where else is Yahweh given this attribute? It isn't common in the Bible.

I don't remember this as a title before, but many Psalms plea for God to take vengeance on behalf of his people that have been maltreated.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:13 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 04, 2017, 05:17AM Psalm 95 text

...

1) There is a strange shift of perspective in verse 9, when a sentence that starts in the voice of the psalmist shifts mid-way and without warning into the voice of Yahweh. This does not work as a poetic device to my mind.

I don't know if its an artefact of the hebrew language not having the same quote features that English has or if its as similarly jarring in the original.

Either way it is fairly common for the chosen to think that they deserve to be chosen and they don't have to obey. So they need to be shocked into remembering that even though they are chosen, there are consequences for not obeying.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:49 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 05, 2017, 02:37AM Psalm 99 text

...

1) "He sits enthroned upon the cherubim" - Yahweh uses angels as a seat? Surely a metaphor? Or not?

I guess its a reference to the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies in the temple which had cherubim. But it might be this and a metaphor too: God is so powerful he sits on Chrubim.

Quote2) The "but an avenger of their wrongdoings" line in verse 8 I think hints at the purpose of this psalm - it's another plea to Yahweh to squash enemies. But more subtly phrased than usual.
3) Mild apologies for the flippant summary above, but I'm running out of things to say about reading the same stuff over and over again...

Mild acceptance of your apology: you're forgiven

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:50 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 05, 2017, 02:40AM Psalm 100 text

2) 100 psalms down, 50 to go... I must admit, this marathon feels like a slog to me in a way that it hasn't going through any earlier book.

I found Tobit harder going.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:57 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 05, 2017, 02:45AM Psalm 101 text

...

1) "Of David" again, after a number of unsuperscripted chapters.

So why would they specify "of David" for this one and not others? Maybe because David wrote this one?

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:31 am

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 07, 2017, 01:07PMI'm back from a week camping in the rain. What fun.

Camping at this time of year does seem a surreal concept to those of us in the Northern hemisphere. Glad you were able to get into the dreich Northern hemisphere winter spirit...

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 07, 2017, 01:07PMmuch to large to have been dreamed of by a bunch of barbarians
I think their concept bears things in common with the mathematical idea of infinity: "Imagine something bigger than anything else could ever be".

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 07, 2017, 01:07PMthe Psalm is consistent with Moses experience: maybe he did write it.

Or it was written by someone later who had the same text about Moses that we do. When we went through the Moses story, we noted that there's no independent evidence corroborating it, and commented on what ideas of national development of Israel and Judah arose from studying the archaeology.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 07, 2017, 11:56PMI don't remember this as a title before, but many Psalms plea for God to take vengeance on behalf of his people that have been maltreated.

It just struck me with a very... well... pagan kind of ring. But then this was written as Judaism rather than Christianity. It could, taken in isolation, be something like Norse religion; it feels like an epithet for Odin, perhaps...

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 08, 2017, 01:50AMI found Tobit harder going.

I recall! And each of the other deuterocanonical books so far, I think?

The difference between us - I think, please correct me if I'm off - is that Psalms is affirmation for you; while you want to extract the meaning from all these books and analyse them for content, you want to do so in the light of what you already believe to be true. For me Psalms is somebody else's affirmation - quite often I read a psalm and think "Well, there was nothing in that at all that interests me". I already know that being into something means that it's pleasant to read about how other people are into it. Would 150 chapters of reading about people praising clarinets have you drifting off?

In contrast, there's a wealth of narrative information in the earlier books, even Tobit, which you said you found ridiculous at the time (an assessment I agree with, btw).

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 08, 2017, 01:57AMSo why would they specify "of David" for this one and not others? Maybe because David wrote this one?

Ditto to 'Of Moses' above.

But also note that writing "Of so-and-so" does not in English usage imply that so-and-so wrote it. If I wrote a song about King David, I could quite legitimately subtitle it "Of David", meaning 'this is about him'. Do we know what the Hebrew phrase is?

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:49 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 08, 2017, 04:31AMCamping at this time of year does seem a surreal concept to those of us in the Northern hemisphere. Glad you were able to get into the dreich Northern hemisphere winter spirit...

even on the cooler overcast days it was 25degC. Quite pleasant.

QuoteThe difference between us - I think, please correct me if I'm off - is that Psalms is affirmation for you; while you want to extract the meaning from all these books and analyse them for content, you want to do so in the light of what you already believe to be true. For me Psalms is somebody else's affirmation - quite often I read a psalm and think "Well, there was nothing in that at all that interests me". I already know that being into something means that it's pleasant to read about how other people are into it. Would 150 chapters of reading about people praising clarinets have you drifting off?

In contrast, there's a wealth of narrative information in the earlier books, even Tobit, which you said you found ridiculous at the time (an assessment I agree with, btw).

Pretty much. There are many NT references to the Psalms so they fit in with and fill out what I know. Even when they say things that are unexpected they are not jarring. And they are part of my canon, so when they come out with something that doesn't fit in with what I "know" (like lots of gods) I am comfortable incorporating that into my understanding of "theological truth" where as Tobit and the other deuterocanonical writings are suspect so I write their differences off as "error".

Quote
But also note that writing "Of so-and-so" does not in English usage imply that so-and-so wrote it. If I wrote a song about King David, I could quite legitimately subtitle it "Of David", meaning 'this is about him'. Do we know what the Hebrew phrase is?

I think the term is ambiguous and that "of David" means by him or about him. Some of the Psalms seem very personal and seem likely to have been written by him, IMO, whereas others are less personal and could have been written about him. The fact that the anthologist chose to attribute some Psalms to David, even in that ambiguous sense, and not others would seem to indicate that he had reasons for his attribution. I think (without conclusive evidence admittedly) that was because there were Psalms actually written by David.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:15 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 05, 2017, 02:45AM Psalm 101 text

...

1) "Of David" again, after a number of unsuperscripted chapters.

The I in the Psalm had power to destroy and to be ministered too: so someone powerful, maybe even a king.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:33 pm

Psalm 102 text

Highlights

- Don't grizzle, think about how great God is.

Summary

- Hear and answer me O Lord
- for I am perishing
- but you are enthroned forever
- you will build Zion and appear in glory because of prayer
- let all generations know this so they will praise you forever
- Don't let me pass, you who endure
- you are permanent but everything else fades

Questions and Observations

1) This sounds like Heb 1:10-12.
2) I'm not sure what event this psalm describes, sometime when Jerusalem was under threat.
3) Its interesting how the Psalmist prays to God for relief in v1-11 and then goes to pray for Gods glory in 12-22, then complains about his problems in 23-24 and then to praise again in 25-27 with the conclusion taht the children of his servants will be looked afer. Its probably an subtle hint that we should focus on praising God rather than grizzling.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:01 am

Psalm 103 text

Highlights

- Bless the Lord

Summary

- Bless the Lord because he gives us all that we need
- The Lord is loving and forgiving, like a father
- Bless the Lord on his eternal throne

Questions and Observations

1) Pretty obvious I think

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:16 am

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 08, 2017, 11:49AMeven on the cooler overcast days it was 25degC. Quite pleasant.
We have differing internal thermostats, doubtless due to where we've been raised. 25C is about the upper limit at which I feel comfortable. I was playing with the hot water settings on the boiler a couple of days ago, and testing water temperatures on my hand - imagining being enveloped in air of the same temperature, 30 felt surprisingly discomforting, and 40 unbearable. Mind you, though, I have experienced 40+ (summer of 1998 - 44C and high humidity in Venice; also 40C and low humidity in Rome). It was indeed basically unbearable; I recall lying down on a cool stone surface inside St Mark's, feeling notably groggy... In contrast, Napoli in November 2011 was a regular 25C; very pleasant coming from a British late autumn, but I wouldn't have wanted it to be any hotter - climatic conditions suitable for lazing around in (sitting inside an Italian lecture theatre trying to pay attention to algebraic derivations for 5 days on end - not so much).

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 08, 2017, 11:49AMPretty much. There are many NT references to the Psalms so they fit in with and fill out what I know. Even when they say things that are unexpected they are not jarring. And they are part of my canon, so when they come out with something that doesn't fit in with what I "know" (like lots of gods) I am comfortable incorporating that into my understanding of "theological truth" where as Tobit and the other deuterocanonical writings are suspect so I write their differences off as "error".
This is interesting. Throughout I have been essentially performing the same process - designating the various things that we read with my personal judgments as to what can be trusted in them, and what can't. It isn't as sharp a division as truth vs. error - there's the effect of dodgy fidelity of long-time transmission to consider, which tends to take the truth and crumple it in from the edges. Our interest is basically the same - extract the trustworthy knowledge from this book, but our parameters are different.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 08, 2017, 11:49AMI think the term is ambiguous and that "of David" means by him or about him. Some of the Psalms seem very personal and seem likely to have been written by him, IMO, whereas others are less personal and could have been written about him. The fact that the anthologist chose to attribute some Psalms to David, even in that ambiguous sense, and not others would seem to indicate that he had reasons for his attribution. I think (without conclusive evidence admittedly) that was because there were Psalms actually written by David.

And this is a classic difference of parameter. You're happy to go with this assumption because it jives nicely with your perception of biblical truth. I look at it with unfaithy eyes and see no compelling logical reason to consider the possible claim of authorship from so long before the main period where Hebrew scholars were composing their canon. Ditto Moses, even more so.

The psalms attributed "Of the Sons of Korah" also make it clear that psalmic authorship could come from a group working in a tradition, muddying the waters further.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 08, 2017, 11:33PM Psalm 102 text

1) This sounds like Heb 1:10-12.

Hebrews is a book I have never looked at. I shall be interested to see how it goes - my expectation is essentially "See this religion you've got? Here's a new bit to stick on the front.". Is that anywhere near what it is?

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:41 am

Psalm 104 text

Highlights

- Of Yahweh: "Crikey"

Summary

- Yahweh is awesome
- Amazing to the appearance
- Doer of astonishing acts
- Creator of everything
- Let wickedness be gone

Questions and Observations

1) All a straightforward hymn of praise, then a little wish at the end for a fairer world.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:08 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 09, 2017, 03:16AMHebrews is a book I have never looked at. I shall be interested to see how it goes - my expectation is essentially "See this religion you've got? Here's a new bit to stick on the front.". Is that anywhere near what it is?

Pretty close. I'd characterise it as showing how Jesus fulfills the OT religion

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:11 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 09, 2017, 03:41AM Psalm 104 text

Highlights

- Of Yahweh: "Crikey"

I enjoy your unorthodox take on things. Even if this makes God sound like Steve Irwin.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:33 pm

Psalm 105 text

Highlights

- Praise the Lord beceaus he is good to us

Summary

- Praise the Lord, and thank him
- He gave promises to the patriarchs
- He protected us in the wilderness
= He anticipated our needs
- He redeemed us with mighty signs
- He provided for us
- He brought his people out with joy and singing to obey him

Questions and Observations

1) a look at history

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:49 am

Psalm 106 text

Highlights

- As Psalm 105

Summary

- Worship Yahweh
- He is just and in charge for all time
- He values those who are also just
- The author calls to be remembered when Yahweh favours his followers
- They list the ways in which the Exodus Israelites didn't follow Yahweh
- But Yahweh still helped them

Questions and Observations

1) We appear to be in a set of consecutive psalms that are all primarily about being in awe of Yahweh.

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:20 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 10, 2017, 05:49AM Psalm 106 text

Highlights

- As Psalm 105

Summary

- Worship Yahweh
- He is just and in charge for all time
- He values those who are also just
- The author calls to be remembered when Yahweh favours his followers
- They list the ways in which the Exodus Israelites didn't follow Yahweh
- But Yahweh still helped them

Questions and Observations

1) We appear to be in a set of consecutive psalms that are all primarily about being in awe of Yahweh.

These look like (to me) what a morning quiet time prayer devotions are. They were journalized each day by the psalmist. They serve as great examples of how we can conduct our daily quiet times.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:28 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 09, 2017, 03:16AMWe have differing internal thermostats, doubtless due to where we've been raised. 25C is about the upper limit at which I feel comfortable. I was playing with the hot water settings on the boiler a couple of days ago, and testing water temperatures on my hand - imagining being enveloped in air of the same temperature, 30 felt surprisingly discomforting, and 40 unbearable. Mind you, though, I have experienced 40+ (summer of 1998 - 44C and high humidity in Venice; also 40C and low humidity in Rome).

Its 39C now, but it is going to drop to 25C overnight. Humidity is 77%. Can we blame Trump or Brexit?

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:13 am

Psalm 107 text

Highlights

- Something to ponder

Summary

- The Lord loves his redeemed forever
(now I'm going meta)
- repeated descriptions of threatening situations
- repeated recourse to prayer
- repeated diving response
- repeated calls to thankfulness
(/meta) ie back to normal
- Some were delivered from perils on the land
- Some from spiritual perils, rebellion against God
- ditto
- and some from perils at sea

- He blesses and cares for them
- He disciplines them but then raises up the needy
- So that the upright see and are glad
- and the wise considers his love.

Questions and Observations

1) We're at book 5. The home straight.
2) Apparently vv23-32 indicates that The Lord supports merchants and business! If you take it out of context anyway.
3) I don't think its clear who all the "they"s are in vv 36-41

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:30 am

Quote from: ddickerson on Jan 10, 2017, 10:20AMThese look like (to me) what a morning quiet time prayer devotions are. They were journalized each day by the psalmist. They serve as great examples of how we can conduct our daily quiet times.

Nice, thanks for that. I see how this could be very effective for those that buy in.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 10, 2017, 10:28PMIts 39C now, but it is going to drop to 25C overnight. Humidity is 77%. Can we blame Trump or Brexit?

Give it a few years until Trump's climate-change-denying political team's declared policy of deliberate environmental sabotage starts to show up in results. Then absolutely, we can blame him for that fraction of it. Mind you, he's 70 now - he'll be dead or at least decrepit by then. Brexit less clear... Maybe if the UK after Brexit actually happens starts "cutting the red tape" (urgh, such a misused phrase) of EU environmental legislation we can join in the destructive spree too - but actually our brand of political insanity, while it's where you'll find all the local climate change deniers, hasn't made it part of its orthodoxy yet.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 11, 2017, 02:13AM Psalm 107 text

1) We're at book 5. The home straight.
Yay! Not that I'm not getting stuff out of these, but I'm definitely ready for a change. But let's not get carried away just yet - Book 5 (44 psalms) is the longest of the five divisions - the others are respectively 41, 31, 17, and 17 psalms in length.

I have wondered how the psalms came to be divided into five parts, and it seems that nobody is quite sure. The suggestion is made in various places that 5 matches the books of the Torah, but certainty is lacking.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 11, 2017, 02:13AM2) Apparently vv23-32 indicates that The Lord supports merchants and business! If you take it out of context anyway.
He'd have to be a god pretty out of tune with the sentiments of the people that worshipped him to condemn capitalism entirely. The instructions have been pretty big on treating people justly, but there are also many laws about commerce and the flow of money in communal living that we've passed over in places like Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

If we compare the attitude of Jesus later on, he seems much less keen on treating making money as an end in itself. He's a keen advocate of developing the self rather than the possessions of the self. This is why all modern Christians are big fans of socialism and communism...

We've seen the argument before that the instructions of Jesus overrule all OT instructions where they conflict (I think it was with regard to "Turn the other cheek" vs. "An eye for an eye", but I might be remembering wrongly?). So if there's a coded injunction here to support the making of wealth but Jesus warns Christians that it's better to be poor ("Eye of a needle", etc.), then logically Jesus's words ought to supersede the psalm. What do you reckon?

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 11, 2017, 02:13AM3) I don't think its clear who all the "they"s are in vv 36-41

No, the flow continues over many verses, but the meaning lapses. It's curious poetically.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:56 am

Psalm 108 text

Highlights

- Places Yahweh can count on

Summary

- David is loyal to Yahweh and says that he tells people so in music
- The lands of Yahweh loyalty are described in fancifully poetic fashion

Questions and Observations

1) Writing about David again.
2) Stephen Fry obviously enjoyed verse 9...

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:35 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 11, 2017, 02:56AM Psalm 108 text

Highlights

- Places Yahweh can count on

Summary

- David is loyal to Yahweh and says that he tells people so in music
- The lands of Yahweh loyalty are described in fancifully poetic fashion

I read this completely differently to you.

- I trust you Lord, I will praise you
- Be exalted so that your beloved ones may be delivered
- You have promised that all the surrounding nations are yours to do as you will
- But we are in danger from them
- Have you rejected us? You don't go out with our armies.
- Help us against our enemies, with you on our side we will prevail

So I read it as a prayer to God to help Israel.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:26 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 11, 2017, 02:30AM
He'd have to be a god pretty out of tune with the sentiments of the people that worshipped him to condemn capitalism entirely. The instructions have been pretty big on treating people justly, but there are also many laws about commerce and the flow of money in communal living that we've passed over in places like Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

Just noticing that you think in terms of God being in tune with us, ie that God needs to accommodate us, where I think the other way.

QuoteIf we compare the attitude of Jesus later on, he seems much less keen on treating making money as an end in itself. He's a keen advocate of developing the self rather than the possessions of the self. This is why all modern Christians are big fans of socialism and communism...

I agree with you about Jesus attitude to money: money is a means to an end - and we should be generous with it. And he also says that the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.

But I disagree with your observation that all modern christians are big fans of socialism and communism... I guess you're actually being facetious, in which case I agree but don't think its a problem. (I would argue that Marx got his ideas from the way the church was organised in Acts. And in its "idealistic" form of "to each according to his need, from each according to his ability", it would be a valid and great way for christians to organise their economy, but it tends to fail because of human greed, and where its organised nationally is often antagonistic to christianity, one of the opiates of the people. Communism is worse.) I think capitalism works well because it uses peoples greed/self interest and we're all good at that.

Sure Jesus is more concerned with your behaviour and attitude that your possessions, but having possessions in themselves are not condemned, its the love of possessions/money that is condemned. Its the attitude that counts not the possessions.

QuoteWe've seen the argument before that the instructions of Jesus overrule all OT instructions where they conflict (I think it was with regard to "Turn the other cheek" vs. "An eye for an eye", but I might be remembering wrongly?). So if there's a coded injunction here to support the making of wealth but Jesus warns Christians that it's better to be poor ("Eye of a needle", etc.), then logically Jesus's words ought to supersede the psalm. What do you reckon?

I don't think that Jesus "overruled" any OT commands - at least any you are thinking of.

- sometimes he set higher standards for those who wanted to follow him ( and I think that this was just to show that we couldn't earn our salvation by trying to be good enough. So an eye for an eye is a good rule for proportional justice, and the minimal standard, it is directed at the official who is sentencing a wrongdoer. "turn the other cheek" is different and doesn't replace the original, it is a new instruction directed at 'victims' on how they should react to someone doing them wrong. I think that both rules could coexist. There are really 3 rules aren't there: Don't hit people, Apply proportional penalties, Turn the other cheek. All directed at different actors.
- other times he condemned "rules" that were made up and added to the rules people were supposed to follow. The Pharisees were good at making up extra rules, some that were meant to excuse you from following the OT laws.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:09 am

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 11, 2017, 02:26PMJust noticing that you think in terms of God being in tune with us, ie that God needs to accommodate us, where I think the other way.
This is a product of me not thinking that he's real. Those that think he is real I suppose might logically be able to view him as more flexible than the people worshipping him, but this seems uncommon in my observation - your position is usual for a believer, I think.

To amplify, Yahweh was created by the people that worshipped him, and so naturally he reflects what they thought he should be. It's a much longer, more complex process than that, and one shrouded in the mists of time; Yahweh was not originally the god of Israel (note the "El" ending the name - if it were Yahweh, it might have been "Israiah"); he was originally a son of El, but the perception of Israel/Judah shifted over the centuries to the point where he was perceived as not only the supreme god, but in time the only god, taking on various names of other gods. We can see this shift in the words we've been reading, where different books carry words from different eras - witness all those eye-opening psalms that talk about multiple gods.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 11, 2017, 02:26PMI agree with you about Jesus attitude to money: money is a means to an end - and we should be generous with it. And he also says that the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.

But I disagree with your observation that all modern christians are big fans of socialism and communism... I guess you're actually being facetious
Yes, very much intended as sarcasm. It was a barb aimed at the unlikely and often aggressively authoritarian mash-up of Christianity and hard-core right-wing political views that one finds in the US particularly. The descriptions of Jesus are about as far as one can imagine from many of the attitudes that one is presented with. I am regularly perplexed to find that the philosophy of someone who seems to have been a blend of an old hippy and a left-wing radical is venerated by so many that profess to hate the morals that such a person typically has.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. It's been some years since I read the gospels, and I could do with a refresher. Fortunately, one is on the menu, here in approximately a year's time...

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 11, 2017, 02:26PM, in which case I agree but don't think its a problem. (I would argue that Marx got his ideas from the way the church was organised in Acts. And in its "idealistic" form of "to each according to his need, from each according to his ability", it would be a valid and great way for christians to organise their economy, but it tends to fail because of human greed, and where its organised nationally is often antagonistic to christianity, one of the opiates of the people. Communism is worse.) I think capitalism works well because it uses peoples greed/self interest and we're all good at that.
Important I think to avoid comparing in absolutes. We don't live in either a fully capitalist or a fully socialist society; in our world "the free market" has been fetishised for getting on for two generations now, making the balance of our mix more simply capitalist than it was up to the end of the 1970s, but even in the notoriously free-market-worshipping US there is some central provision for those that cannot afford necessary things.

Communism is rather different, and hasn't yet worked well on a national scale, though on a village scale it can work well. Too many personal incentives to improve are lost. We in the West are working towards a balance that suits over the centuries, and if we can avoid creating political crises destabilising enough to knock our system over (fingers crossed over Trump, who seems quite quite mad) we can continue to iterate our solutions. The last swing was towards unrestrained capitalism, and this has come to hurt many people in the last decade, so the obvious next step would be to go back the other way. But many people almost spit the word 'socialism', and so that is out of favour, leaving the whole thing drifting in zombie fashion until somebody charismatic and benevolent pops up to give the whole thing a new meaning that people can get behind.

Interesting idea about Marx. I look forward to comparing his ideas with those found in Acts when we get there.

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 11, 2017, 02:26PMSure Jesus is more concerned with your behaviour and attitude that your possessions, but having possessions in themselves are not condemned, its the love of possessions/money that is condemned. Its the attitude that counts not the possessions.
It is probably a moral hazard to collect nice trombones...

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 11, 2017, 02:26PMI don't think that Jesus "overruled" any OT commands - at least any you are thinking of.

- sometimes he set higher standards for those who wanted to follow him ( and I think that this was just to show that we couldn't earn our salvation by trying to be good enough. So an eye for an eye is a good rule for proportional justice, and the minimal standard, it is directed at the official who is sentencing a wrongdoer. "turn the other cheek" is different and doesn't replace the original, it is a new instruction directed at 'victims' on how they should react to someone doing them wrong. I think that both rules could coexist. There are really 3 rules aren't there: Don't hit people, Apply proportional penalties, Turn the other cheek. All directed at different actors.
- other times he condemned "rules" that were made up and added to the rules people were supposed to follow. The Pharisees were good at making up extra rules, some that were meant to excuse you from following the OT laws.

Not sure I totally agree about OT and NT being in such harmony, but this is I think better left until we are reading the NT. My current recall of NT is too hazy to be putting solid enough thoughts together.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:16 am

Psalm 109 text

Highlights

- David pleads for support

Summary

- David is slandered, and calls on Yahweh to support him
- He beseeches Yahweh to set wicked against wicked on his behalf
- He pleads Yahweh's help, as he is currently weak and unconfident
- He promises to be vocal in his thanks for this

Questions and Observations

1) Vv 6-15: I think David is calling on Yahweh to deploy wicked people in his cause in order to defeat the wicked people that oppose him. Do you read this the same? This seems theologically strange and questionable to me?

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:28 am

Psalm 110 text

Highlights

- David is a mighty and powerful king favoured by Yahweh

Summary

- Yahweh bids David welcome
- He charges David with might
- And tells him that he will rule over all

Questions and Observations

1) "The Lord" and "my Lord" in v1, one talking to the other. This is confusing! I think "The Lord" is Yahweh and "my Lord" is David - is that correct?
2) Yahweh to David (? See Q1): "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek". I had forgotten it if we have already been told that David was a priest. Was he? I didn't think so... Here's some discussion on it.
3) I see from the link in Q2 that this psalm is taken as a prophecy (THE prophecy?) of Jesus. This wasn't how I naturally read it - it seemed to me about Israelite military might in David's time, rather than about the success of his descendants.
4) I'm going away for the weekend early tomorrow; back late Monday.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:34 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 12, 2017, 03:16AM Psalm 109 text

...

1) Vv 6-15: I think David is calling on Yahweh to deploy wicked people in his cause in order to defeat the wicked people that oppose him. Do you read this the same? This seems theologically strange and questionable to me?

I agree that that is what David is asking for (are you sure its not some later writer pretending to be David? and that it sounds as though he's pushing it a bit asking for God to use an evil person. Its certainly not upper class anglican.

I don't think I have a definite answer to this, but here are some random thoughts:
- Why does it matter who is doing the accusing. Legally, its the truth of the accusation that matters isn't it?
- He may be thinking that its poetic justice: that its appropriate for an evil person to be accused by another evil person.
- God uses evil people to do things all the time. If he only used completely good people then he'd have to do everything himself.
- David is angry that his love has been repaid with evil: so he's venting his anger, is an appropriate way, by taking it to God and asking him to deal with the injustice. Anger isn't wrong, its just that we tend to lose control and do bad things when we are angry.

And v6... is applied to Judas Iscariot in the gospels: the evil man who accused Jesus.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:56 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 12, 2017, 03:28AM Psalm 110 text

...

1) "The Lord" and "my Lord" in v1, one talking to the other. This is confusing! I think "The Lord" is Yahweh and "my Lord" is David - is that correct?

I think so too. It is confusing and I think you have the Lords right.

Quote2) Yahweh to David (? See Q1): "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek". I had forgotten it if we have already been told that David was a priest. Was he? I didn't think so... Here's some discussion on it.

Melchizedech was the priest-king of Salem that Abraham met in Gen 14. He submitted to Melchizedek showing that Melchizedek was superior to him. I think the logic is that when David took the throne in Jerusalem he inherited that priest-king role. So he wasn't a normal priest in the Levitical order, but a "special" priest that was superior to the normal priesthood in the same way that Melchizedek was superior to Abraham. This I think allowed him to do things in the temple that would have got ordinary people killed.

Quote
3) I see from the link in Q2 that this psalm is taken as a prophecy (THE prophecy?) of Jesus. This wasn't how I naturally read it - it seemed to me about Israelite military might in David's time, rather than about the success of his descendants.

Pretty much all the bible is a prophecy about Jesus. Lots of it isn't obvious.

- I guess it must have been allowable for a promise made to David to be fulfilled by one of his heirs.

The NT uses this Psalm in 2 ways that I can think of.

- In Hebrews to show that Jesus was a priest of Melchizedek's order, and so was superior to the normal priests, so could make a one off offering for sin that was completely effective, as opposed to the normal priests whose offerings only covered existing sins.

- To show that Jesus was Lord in Matt, Mark, Luke and Acts.

Quote
4) I'm going away for the weekend early tomorrow; back late Monday.

You going camping? Have fun.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:07 pm

Psalm 111 text

Highlights

- everything the Lord has done is great.

Summary

- Praise the Lord!
- everything he has done is awesome, splendid and majestic
- he is faithdul, just and trustworthy
- the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

Questions and Observations

1) an anonymous acrostic psalm

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:13 pm

Psalm 112 text

Highlights

- Praise the Lord. Again

Summary

- those that fear the Lord are favoured
- even when things go wrong, they are not afraid
- The Lord is generous and righteous: this upsets the wicked

Questions and Observations

1) this seems to be praising those who trust God, but I think its supposed to be praising The Lord who is trustworthy.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:17 pm

Psalm 113 text

Highlights

- Praise the Lord, again

Summary

- Praise the Lord, all the time
- He is above everything
- He looks after the poor and barren
- Praise the Lord!

Questions and Observations

1) Nothing tricky here.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:20 pm

Psalm 114 text

Highlights

- Fear the Lord.

Summary

- When Israel left Egypt God became their god.
- The earth shook and the sea fled
- Why did you they do that?
- Because of how great God is.

Questions and Observations

1) this is metaphoric, Dave.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:16 am

Psalm 115 text

Highlights

- Praise the Lord

Summary

- Praise due only to the sovereign God of heaven
- Useless idols and those that trust them
- the Lord and those that trust him
- Praise due to the Lord

Questions and Observations

1)

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:20 am

Psalm 116 text

Highlights

- Faith and Freedom

Summary

- I call to the Lord in my distress
- The Lord is gracious to me so I don't need to be anxious
- You have saved me from death
- I will be grateful
- We are precious to you and you have freed me
- I will call on you in my deliverance

Questions and Observations

1)

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:24 am

Psalm 117 text

Highlights

- Everyone, Praise the Lord.

Summary

- Everyone, Praise the Lord
- His love and faithfulness endure forever
- Praise the Lord

Questions and Observations

1) I was tempted to make the summary longer than the Psalm.
2) I'll ask our minister to preach on this Psalm. Should be a quick sermon.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:26 am

Quote from: drizabone on Jan 12, 2017, 12:56PMYou going camping? Have fun.

Nearly as good... Brass band contest at Butlins Skegness. There's a possible sea-defence-overtopping tidal surge predicted for approximately the time of our arrival... It must seem such a good idea at Butlins central control - get the whole camp bustling on a weekend in January when otherwise it would be closed, and pray that the weather plays along.

I have a certain natural scepticism about the interpretation of ancient texts to mean convenient things... One takes the unclear words of someone very very long dead, and then inserts the meaning one wants... And then wonders whether some apparent long-ago fulfilment of it was done by someone else doing the same thing that you are doing now. It's a very very easy process to make say whatever is desired - e.g. Nostradamus. A bit like "cold reading" yourself.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:53 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 13, 2017, 03:26AM One takes the unclear words of someone very very long dead, and then inserts the meaning one wants... And then wonders whether some apparent long-ago fulfilment of it was done by someone else doing the same thing that you are doing now.
Good point, particularly since the NT writers were a) familiar with the OT verses that could be interpreted as predictions and b) it was a common literary technique to phrase a current event in terms of a past one to give emphasis.

ttf_John the Theologian · Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:25 pm

I have a certain scepticism about modern writers who turn the very clear meaning of ancient texts into meanings that are more convenient to them simply because they don't like the implication of what it says-- especially when it might actually prove to be predictive prophecy.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:48 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Jan 13, 2017, 03:26AMI have a certain natural scepticism about the interpretation of ancient texts to mean convenient things... One takes the unclear words of someone very very long dead, and then inserts the meaning one wants... And then wonders whether some apparent long-ago fulfilment of it was done by someone else doing the same thing that you are doing now. It's a very very easy process to make say whatever is desired - e.g. Nostradamus. A bit like "cold reading" yourself.

Dave: Are you talking about Psalm 110 or how the NT uses the old in general?

Quote from: timothy42b on Jan 13, 2017, 04:53AMGood point, particularly since the NT writers were a) familiar with the OT verses that could be interpreted as predictions and b) it was a common literary technique to phrase a current event in terms of a past one to give emphasis.

- or to show that the current event was the fulfillment of a promise that God had made.
- or to authenticate a NT person

I'm hoping that you'll interact with this more when we get to the NT Tim so I can get a better understanding of how these interpretive techniques work

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:30 pm

Psalm 118 text

Highlights

- Procession through the Gates of Righteousness.

Summary

- The Lord is good and his love is forever
- I called on the Lord and he set me free
- His refuge is more reliable than any other
- The nations surrounded me but I cut them off
- The Lord stenghens and saves me
- The Lord has disciplined me but I shall live and recount his deeds
- You have saved me and made me righteous
- The Lord has accepted us and we bless him
- I give thanks to you, my God and Lord

Questions and Observations

1) In v19 the Psalmist asks for the gates of "righeousness to be opened" and then the Psalm changes to a temple perspective, of someone who is in the house of the Lord and who has benefitted from the acceptance of a sacrifice. It suggests to me that this Psalm was sung in a procession up to the temple gates and then inside
2) We've mentioned in the past, how 'salvation' in the Psalms is generally a reference to being saved militarily from the surrounding nations. But in v19... it is linked to righteousness, being in the temple and sacrifices. This is the closest yet IMO that the Psalms talks about salvation in NT terms. (especially with the NT perspective of v22)

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:14 am

Psalm 119 text

Highlights

- The Word of the Lord

Summary

- (Aleph) Obedience to the Word is the key to life
- (Beth) Focus your desire on the Word
- (Gimel) God enables obedience and punishes disobedience
- (Daleth) When you're weary, feeling small, pray for understanding, strength and obedience
- (He) Renew me so that I desire to follow your word
- (Waw) Let your love come to me then I will be enables to walk in your work
- (Zayin) Remind me of your word when others afflict me
- (Heth) How to respond to someone who can supply all our needs
- (Teth) Teach me your laws because they are more precious than gold
- (Yodh) When I suffer, let your love comfort me, so that I can rejoice in you, so that others can know of you
- (Kaph) When troubles overwhelm me I keep your word and pray
- (Lamedh) Your word and faithfulness stands forever: I will never forget them
- (Mem) I love your law: it is good to me
- (Nun) Your word guides me and protect me: they are my joy
- (Samekh) Your word is a sure but frightening refuge, unlike those double minded evil people
- (Ayin) I follow your word: protect me from my oppressors
- (Pe) your word lightens my life when I am oppressed
- (Tsadhe) You are righteous and your word is true.
- (Qoph) I trust in your word to save me
- (Resh) The psalmist reliably remembers the reliable words of the reliable Lord
- (Sin and Shin) constant heart, constant walk, constant keeper
- (Taw) Straying but obedient

Questions and Observations

1) Now you know the Hebrew alphabet. Its interesting to see the commonalities with the greek letter names that our alphabet are based on. And also to note that they didn't have many vowels.
2) Each paragraph uses words that start with the paragraphs letter for the theme of the paragraph.
3) This psalm focuses on different aspects of God's word: its reliability, how to respond to it, its benefit ...

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:15 pm

Psalm 120 text

Highlights

- Deliver me

Summary

- Deliver me Lord from attackers
- "What do you want?" "You'll get worse!"
- I want peace but my neighbours want war

Questions and Observations

1) Psalms 120 to 136 are titles "Songs of Ascent" They are possibly songs that Pilgrims sung as they made their way to Jerusalem for the annual feasts.
2) Psalms 120-123 are about when trouble comes.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:18 pm

Psalm 121 text

Highlights

- Unknown perils

Summary

- Looking at the surrounding hills and fearing what dangers lie hidden there, I wonder where my help can come from. The Lord!
- He protects you and keeps you safe.
- He will keep you from evil for ever.

Questions and Observations

1)