Theory---Largest..or Smallest?

[ttf_anonymous]

I find it interesting that your 59 would work in a .547. I love a 1.5G in one, but my 60 has sounded horrible really      I've never played a 59 though, and have no idea how different they may or may not be.

There have been times when I ave considered going back to a 1.5G (mostly because of reading on here!), but I really like my 60. It's super comfortable, and I can change my sound around. To me, I have gone from impossibly almost tenor-bright to annoyingly woofy.
The reduction in my high range is worth the positives that it brings. I would be interested in trying some of the newer huge mouthpieces, but really for what I do   
-NOW- it works fine.






On a related note, I'm fixin' to be a tuba major this fall. I don't think I will playing much bass trombone at all (and likely no tenor, not that I do now). I am pretty much set on going with one of the "cheater" mouthpieces for bass trombone. Yamaha and Marcinkiewicz both make a tenor tuba and bass trombone mouthpiece designed around a tuba rim that were developed by Jim Self and Roger Bobo.



Tuba is going to be my first, second, and third focus    I'm not overly worried about being worse on bass trombone as I am of having the bass trombone mess up my developing tuba skills.

[ttf_Burgerbob]

Quote from: Kevin Marsh on Jul 17, 2006, 03:34PMSorry if I've stepped on toes regarding the Grade 9 crowd. I was there once and went down the garden path in the wrong direction--- wrong for me anyway-- every day for about 25 years. I'm converted now, so forgive me for preaching. And as for bass trombonists playing at the age of a young teenager-----man, its tough enough for a huge adult to do it. Physically its a brute of an instrument to play well at any age, if you're really in grade 9 you should be concentrating on drinking your milk and getting 14 hours sleep a day so your bones can hold the horn when it comes time to practice.

When I was in grade 9 I was doing hard time on a monster 4-valve 40 pound old BBb King tuba with a 24" bell and the appropriate mouthpiece, and getting good lessons as well. So, when it came time for me to make the leap to doubling on bass bone at age 17 ( old age to some of the forum members) I was already broken in and found bass bone to be a nice small treat. Boy, was I wrong! Tuba is way easier to hack on.....no cheating on bass bone.

And as for Gabe, in his rebuttal--bless him-- he mentioned the magic words AGAIN--- " PRACTICE" and "PRACTICE HABITS." Beautiful.

I can relate to the young player on bass trombone. I am 17, with a smaller frame, and I have athsma. Not a good combination whatsoever. Pedal F for longer than a couple seconds? no.

As for the mouthpiece debate...

I play a King 6B. Stock, no modifications like open wraps or anything strange like that. It is a very tight horn, in my opinion, compared to many made today (edwards, shires, etc) with larger valves, open wraps, etc. Because of this tightness, whether real or imagined on my part, I play on a Yamaha 60 to sound larger. With a Denge 1.5G, i can play higher much more easily, i can play low almost as easily, but i sound like a dual-valve tenor. Very bright. Just about the only reason i play with such a large mouthpiece, and it isn't a Schilke 60 (I HATE that rim), is to have a larger, somewhat darker sound. As much as I like to play loud, low, i do have to blend sometimes and this is VERY difficult with my 6B and a 1.5G. I have a similar dilemma with my 4B, as it is just that much lighter than the average 88 or 42, and i find myself compensating with a larger mouthpiece than my SM5 (about a 5G or so).

[ttf_Slidennis]

It's been a (too) long time I said to myself and heard the same comments/advices about the 4B :
They like the larger than 5G sized mouthpieces too sound good...
And my lips doesn't like the size for the kind of tenor play I do...

So sold is my 4B....

Another dilemna now for me : endurance and flexibility in the high register : which is better : rather large throated, large rim mpc or the countrary?

I've found myself having lots of flexibility on a Doug Elliott LT99/C/8 on my 8HT, but a kind of choking effect occurs after some time, impeding any sound to be produced above a  , like my lips were progresssively turning in cardboard...  (rim contour that dig too much at the exact starting of the vibration point, if that means something...)

On the other hand : much more endurance on a sligthly larger mpc, much larger throat : Yamaha 51B : still space left to recover for long rehearsals/gigs, but much more air to move in the high register AND worse flexibility... (worse slotting, less pearcing tone, more covered articulations...)

I know, I could use smthg else than my .525" 8HT, but the pieces I'm playing (and the wind band I'm in) are calling for that size trombone...

Any clue where to go from here???

[ttf_MoominDave]

Here's an alternative way of looking at this that struck me the other day -

The two questions "What's the largest mouthpiece you can get away with?" and "What's the smallest mouthpiece you can get away with?" have the same answer for a given player on a given instrument playing a given repertoire...

A good friend, whose playing I know well, plays on the usual 88H. Starting from small Bach mouthpiece sizes, as he moves larger, his sound grows noticeably rounder and more interesting - until he reaches the 4G. From then on, all that happens is that some flabbiness develops at the edge of the sound, and stamina becomes more of an issue - but his sound on a 1.25G is very nearly the same as his sound on a 4G.

The 4G is both the largest mouthpiece he can get away with in terms of sustained accuracy, and the smallest mouthpiece he can get away with in terms of sound quality.
For me on bass, the equivalent mouthpiece seems to be the 1.25G - 1.5Gs give a noticeably smaller sound, whereas 1Gs are a battle.

I suspect that when people talk about "largest possible" or "smallest possible" mouthpieces, they are simply finding unlikely-sounding and misleading ways to talk about the word "optimal".

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 29, 2007, 03:09PMHere's an alternative way of looking at this that struck me the other day -

The two questions "What's the largest mouthpiece you can get away with?" and "What's the smallest mouthpiece you can get away with?" have the same answer for a given player on a given instrument playing a given repertoire...

A good friend, whose playing I know well, plays on the usual 88H. Starting from small Bach mouthpiece sizes, as he moves larger, his sound grows noticeably rounder and more interesting - until he reaches the 4G. From then on, all that happens is that some flabbiness develops at the edge of the sound, and stamina becomes more of an issue - but his sound on a 1.25G is very nearly the same as his sound on a 4G.

The 4G is both the largest mouthpiece he can get away with in terms of sustained accuracy, and the smallest mouthpiece he can get away with in terms of sound quality.
For me on bass, the equivalent mouthpiece seems to be the 1.25G - 1.5Gs give a noticeably smaller sound, whereas 1Gs are a battle.

I suspect that when people talk about "largest possible" or "smallest possible" mouthpieces, they are simply finding unlikely-sounding and misleading ways to talk about the word "optimal".

Sorry but I disagree. I've played the same trombone in the same professional orchestra with a Bach 1 1/2G and a Schilke 60.... the sound results were different, but both valid in themselves. That represents a lot of room for variation within those extremes. Both mouthpieces felt, and worked fine when I used them... and the middle ground represented, at least for me, the worst of all options.
Chris Stearn.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Interesting! Do you find the same results when you stick to mouthpieces from a single model line? It may be that the change in the profile of the mouthpiece (*) had a more important effect than the simple scaling of the overall size.




(*) I don't know Schilke mouthpieces to play on at all - I'm talking generally. Please tell me if this is simply wrong...

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 30, 2007, 02:13PMInteresting! Do you find the same results when you stick to mouthpieces from a single model line? It may be that the change in the profile of the mouthpiece (*) had a more important effect than the simple scaling of the overall size.




(*) I don't know Schilke mouthpieces to play on at all - I'm talking generally. Please tell me if this is simply wrong...

You are right to think of mouthpieces as an overall design and it is true that some designs are far better than others... or at least, appear so when linked to particular instruments and players. Having tried far, far too many mouthpieces over the years... I find the large and small bass sizes, in general, to work better for me than the medium size examples... and I generally prefer the sound of the very best (in my terms) small bass mouthpieces.
Chris Stearn.

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

Dave and Chris, in my mind you're both right.  I test people for optimal rim size by moving bigger one step at a time, and hearing the sound gradually open up, then go beyond it, losing control.  There is usually one size that gives the best overall results.  This is the rim size only, keeping the same cup.

Bass trombone is sort of an exception, because of the extremely wide range that must work well.  That can be done on a variety of setups if you're a strong player.  However, with Bachs, Schilkes, and most mouthpieces it's not possible to go one size larger on the rim without being accompanied by a radically different cup, backbore, and throat... so it's not easy to have a fair test the same way.

[ttf_blast]

Yes Doug, I take your points. It seems to me that there has developed a distinct technique for playing large bass and small bass mouthpieces.... the embouchure is developed in different ways to get the best results from each type... big mouthpiece players having an almost 'trumpet' type setting, whilst small mouthpiece players adopt a more relaxed, 'big tenor'setting. This makes it very hard to move from one extreme to the other.. but also, for me, makes the mid-sizes a waste of time.
Chris Stearn.

[ttf_brucejackson]

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 30, 2007, 05:12PMDave and Chris, in my mind you're both right.  I test people for optimal rim size by moving bigger one step at a time, and hearing the sound gradually open up, then go beyond it, losing control.  There is usually one size that gives the best overall results.  This is the rim size only, keeping the same cup.

Agreed that it isn't always possible to just change one variable in the mouthpiece equation since we often change brands and even within brands not all cups are available with all rims, backbores, etc.

Over the last 3 decades I've played mouthpieces with inner diameters from 25 to 26 mm.  When you are going through your test is there really a change when moving up a tenth of a mm?  I think of 25mm as a small mouthpiece and 26mm as huge but the 26mm mouthpieces I used had a much bigger cup and backbore than the 25mm mouthpieces I tried.  When you run this test how large an increment do you increase the size by?

Were I to decide through trial and error what my optimum rim size is would I be able to play everything (bass, legit, lead jazz, and alto) trombone on one rim only changing cup and backbore to ones apropriate for that kind of playing?  Are your customers successful doing this?

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

My mouthpieces are spec'd by inches, not millimeters.  The graduations are .01" (one hundredth of an inch) which is .254mm from one size to the next, if you really prefer metric.

QuoteWere I to decide through trial and error what my optimum rim size is would I be able to play everything (bass, legit, lead jazz, and alto) trombone on one rim only changing cup and backbore to ones apropriate for that kind of playing?  Are your customers successful doing this?
I personally use the same rim on "legit, lead jazz, and alto" and I don't pretend to play bass although I have faked it a couple of times.  The rim I use is bigger than  your "huge" 26mm rim.  I can get away with very limited bass range on it, but I don't practice that so I don't know how it would be if I did practice.   Bass is really a different instrument and needs a bigger mouthpiece to get the sound and response that most players need out of it.  A tenor rim with a very deep cup is OK for occasional use.

I can't really tell you how "sucessful" my customers are with it because I don't usually hear them.  If you want to hear me there are links on my website.

One item of interest:  On this recording http://www.rewindplay.com/airmenofnote/sounds/santa.htm (click on O Holy Night) I was using a mouthpiece about the size of an 11C, my ST 97C2.  I tried it for a whole year as an experiment, and hated it the whole time.  The horn was a Williams 4.
Compare my sound on that with http://www.rewindplay.com/airmenofnote/sounds/blues&beyond.htm (click on Lush Life), which was a much bigger rim and slightly deeper cup, my XT N104D2.  The horn was a Schmelzer 1.

[ttf_Dave Tatro]

Doug, both recordings sound great to my ears, but I certainly do hear the diference between the two. I might not have recognized the first as your playing because it does not sound like what I have come to think of as your sound. The larger rim definitely opens things up for you!

[ttf_SilverBone]

Beautiful playing in both recordings!  I like the fuller sound Doug gets on the larger rim.

[ttf_anonymous]

Quote from: Precious on Oct 21, 2006, 09:02AMI read the first page of this topic, and skipped the others, so please forgive me (especially if what I'm posting doesn't fit the current topic drift).

I play what sounds best...and normally that is one of the smaller mouthpieces.

I'm not a big person (most people call me "tiny" in stature after meeting me in person), I have a small face, and would fall into (and probably get stuck) in a large mouthpiece.

I struggle with a 6.5AL, a 7c feels too large sometimes, and my 12c is just about right.

I had a hell of a time finding a mouthpiece I could play on when I played bass a number of years ago.  If memory serves, they found me a 6.5AL large shank to play on, because the 5G nearly swallowed my face.

I'm a bit the same way.  I just don't like my sound on a 7 and hate the way a 6.5Al feels for a small shank.  For large shank I tend to play a Conn 5g or a Benge Marcellus, both pretty different mouthpieces.  The Conn is a friends mouthpiece, the Marvellus is a school mouthpiece.  MY lage shank mouthpiece is a Bach 6.5AL that I found on the floor.  I HATE it.  My thing about mouthpieces is play what works and disregard its size.

[ttf_brucejackson]

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 14, 2008, 02:09AMI personally use the same rim on "legit, lead jazz, and alto" and I don't pretend to play bass although I have faked it a couple of times.  The rim I use is bigger than  your "huge" 26mm rim.  I can get away with very limited bass range on it, but I don't practice that so I don't know how it would be if I did practice.   Bass is really a different instrument and needs a bigger mouthpiece to get the sound and response that most players need out of it.  A tenor rim with a very deep cup is OK for occasional use.
Fair enough.  I always faked bass trombone as well.  I didn't have trouble with the range but I never had the big fat sound I think of for bass trombone.  A mouthpiece with the same rim and a bass trombone size cup, throat, and back bore could help me fake it better though I suppose.

When I was playing my best I was using a Denis Wick 4AL for legit.  At that time of my life I wasn't playing any jazz.  After a 20 year hiatus I'm playing again and I'm not likely to be sitting in an orchestral trombone section any time soon; I'm more likely to play in jazz ensembles.  Wick mouthpieces work well for me but they don't have a mouthpiece with a 4AL rim and a shallow cup.  I found an old Wick 10CS in a box that I don't even remember buying that I've been practicing on.  Since muscians can learn to play trumpet, trombone, or tuba I assumed the minor differences in rim size only mattered for someone with an established embousure and that since I'm pretty much restarting trombone from ground zero that I could get used to whatever rim size I played.

The idea that there is an ideal rim size for each person throws a wrench in my plan.  When I was younger my sound improved each time I went up in mouthpiece size from a 6BS, 5BL (changed to a bigger horn as well), then 4AL.  Since I was changing more than one variable at a time I don't know if or how much the larger rim helped my sound or it was the change to a larger horn or deeper cup.

I guess some day I'll have to start experimenting.

[ttf_anonymous]

I feel that there it is not best to play on the biggest or smallest mouthpiece out their unless it fits you best
for my tenor playing, I play on a Bach 4G, which is fairly standard , but on my Bass playing I play on a Dennis Wick 00Al, which is one of the biggest mouthpieces available, but when I was picking out both pieces I tried at least 20 mouthpieces and those were the two that I felt sounded best for me

[ttf_sabutin]

Larger?

Smaller?

Etc.?

It really makes no difference. Not in the long run.

First of all...lager or smaller WHAT?

Size?

Of what?

The rim?

The cup?

The throat?

The backbore?

The shape?

The weight?

The placement of the weight?

The nearly infinite permutations and combinations of those parameters?

Please.

I go for timbre first. That is the one irreplaceable marker as far as I am concerned. If a m'pce/horn combination has a mp to f-ish timbre that pleases me in the meat ranges of the instrument...a range that differs for me from horn to horn because I specialize my equipment to a pretty fine degree...then I start making my choices. And I have learned that my soft machine...my body...can adapt to quite wide ranges of m'pce measurement. From wide open tuba m'pces right on through 12C-ish tenor m'pces and everything in between in my own case, and I suspect in the cases of most others who are not total specialists in one particular style of playing.

For example, I found an older m'pce recently that was an astoundingly good player through a number of octaves on my .525 Shires. It locked in the high register; its blow was wide open; it was in tune; it was flexible; it played well from ppp right on through to fff ; its rim was very comfortable...in short in many ways it "played" substantially better than the extremely good playing NY Bach Clarke S that I have used on that horn for several years. But the sound wasn't right. Not enough overtones? The wrong formants? Not enough depth of sound? Not enough core somehow? Damned if I know. It just didn't please me. So it lives in my wish box. (My "I wish I could figure out m'pces" collection.)

So it goes.

We are trombone players.

What do we really have to offer in the musical world? What do we really have to offer that is not provided better by other instruments?

Sound.

Dassit.

First...the sound.

THEN the other aspects, starting with rim comfort. (Actually, I have never played a m'pce with an uncomfortable rim...which for me usually means one with a nasty, sharp bite or a big, mushy Rudy Muck-type rim...on which I could produce a good sound. But I suppose it's theoretically possible. I also have never played a relatively lightweight one that I liked. But I do keep trying.)

First...the sound.

I have been simultaneously blindfold testing multiple m'pces...rarely fewer than 4 at once in order to throughly confuse my chops...on every size of trombone for 30+ years, and I have been fooled SO many times...

M'pces w/relatively small dimensions that played larger than big ones during a multi-m'pce comparison test on a given horn but did not work at all on another horn; big ones with outstanding high ranges, small ones...even ones w/relatively small rim diameters...that BOOMED in the lower ranges, etc. etc. etc. etc...

Go figure.

Or better yet...

Go experiment.

Try everything and use what works.

For you.

Later...

S.

[ttf_anonymous]

i try to achieve a brilliant, "ping" quality to my sound. it aways blends in ensembles, and is most desireable for solo plying. i find that , for me, the smallest size mouthpiece possible does the trick. more often than not, 1st bone parts are trying to match a middle line with the 3rd trumpet/french horn line, which requires a lot of high end overtones.

i'm not a physics major, but i have found that i try to match these people OUTSIDE of the trombone section MORE than the trombone section itself. and when that happens, i see smiles from the conductor.

i may be crazy, but that's how i approach mouthpieces and the 1st trombone part. please don't be too harsh.

[ttf_shiresbone]

Well I am sure the major players don't play the largest they can they play what they think sounds best.  I play a Bach 4g and some people tell me its to big but that is what I sound best with if a 5g sounds better than il play that if a 3g is better il play that ect...

[ttf_anonymous]

Ok so from what I've read bigger mouthpieces generally lead to darker sounds and a more difficult high range. Well I've been playing lead tenor since sixth grade and right now I play on a Bach 2G. I have a 6 1/2 AL a 5G and a schillke 59(used for fourth tenor in jazz band). So taking into account all that I've read why is it that I have a range from a pedal F to a high D on a 2G? Whenever I try to play on my smaller mouthpieces I can only get about a few steps higher but I can't control partials as well. I'm just curious and was wondering if anyone had an explanation or is in a similar situation. 

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

Quote from: Tromboner7471 on Mar 22, 2009, 08:37PMOk so from what I've read bigger mouthpieces generally lead to darker sounds and a more difficult high range. Well I've been playing lead tenor since sixth grade and right now I play on a Bach 2G. I have a 6 1/2 AL a 5G and a schillke 59(used for fourth tenor in jazz band). So taking into account all that I've read why is it that I have a range from a pedal F to a high D on a 2G? Whenever I try to play on my smaller mouthpieces I can only get about a few steps higher but I can't control partials as well. I'm just curious and was wondering if anyone had an explanation or is in a similar situation. 
I guess you haven't read what I've written on this subject.  Go back to near the beginning of this old thread, and see post #11, 31, and 32 from pages 1 and 2.  There are other places I've talked about it in more detail but I don't know where right now.

[ttf_anonymous]

My band instructor just tells me "which ever is comfortable on your lips" when I ask him about mouthpieces.  I chose a 7C which is getting a bit too small for my lips -I think they're getting muscular :O- and good thing my Yammy came with a 6.5 AL, I needed one.  I can produce a good tone -better then most ppl in my section atleast- with both mouthpieces.  Using my 7C for jazz band, and lead in marching.  And my 6.5 AL for concert season, and practice/sectionals.  My 7C produces a bright tone, as to which my 6.5 AL doesn't.  My 6.5 AL produces a tone that is for symphonic, but not to the point it's flat.  Another thing is that my lips are still not completely trained out of the 12C feel.  I used a 12C for my 1st 6months of playing trombone -I played for 10 months now- as I play VERY sharp on both mouthpieces, needing to pull my tuning slide almost all the way out with both mouthpieces. 

[ttf_anonymous]

I went from a Bach 6 1/2 AL straight to a gold-plated Schilke 51D, which people had to admit, sounded really nice. Then I went to a faxx 4G, which isn't a big difference. When I switch to my Olds 3, however, things change.

I would NEVER go the smallest for jazz or pep band. That would be ridiculous. The Olds mouthpiece is possibly the smallest I would go, because the rim is huge and the mouthpiece itself is really shallow. It's really hard to get enough air through the instrument to blow the low notes out without adjusting my embouchure completely, but when I do get those magic moments, it's amazing.

As for a large mouthpiece, I would never go big. As to why people go that big I'm not too sure. My teacher plays on the biggest mouthpiece I had ever seen. A Bach 1G on her Euph. Personally, I find that to be insane considering she did band on that euph. Amazing player, but a 1G? I would never go that big.

[ttf_Slidennis]

Quote from: Farore on Dec 06, 2009, 08:04PMI went from a Bach 6 1/2 AL straight to a gold-plated Schilke 51D, which people had to admit, sounded really nice. Then I went to a faxx 4G, which isn't a big difference. When I switch to my Olds 3, however, things change.

I would NEVER go the smallest for jazz or pep band. That would be ridiculous. The Olds mouthpiece is possibly the smallest I would go, because the rim is huge and the mouthpiece itself is really shallow. It's really hard to get enough air through the instrument to blow the low notes out without adjusting my embouchure completely, but when I do get those magic moments, it's amazing.

As for a large mouthpiece, I would never go big. As to why people go that big I'm not too sure. My teacher plays on the biggest mouthpiece I had ever seen. A Bach 1G on her Euph. Personally, I find that to be insane considering she did band on that euph. Amazing player, but a 1G? I would never go that big.
The Olds 3 is smaller than I would ever play, and the 4 G larger...

On all tenors, I remain between 7 and 5 in rim sizes...  mostly 6.5 on everything...

And even not a 1G on the bass... 1 1/2G...

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: Farore on Dec 06, 2009, 08:04PMAmazing player, but a 1G?

I think the relevant part of that quote is "amazing player". A 1G works for her. An excellent euphonium player well known in the South of England, Charley Brighton, plays on a Doug Elliott set-up that is wider and deeper than a 1G. He has a rich, singing tone, with clear articulations. It's so embouchure dependent.

[ttf_anonymous]

I feel like I need to defend some of us who use big mouthpieces.   I use a Schilke Symphony D5.2* and I am not limited in any way technically, nor do I struggle with endurance.  I use a (kinda) big mouthpiece because it is easier to play in tune, my sound is broad, the high register isn't backed up, my articulations don't get splatty, and I have a HUGE dynamic and tone color range to play with.  ALSO anything smaller would not allow me to put enough energy into my horn to get it ringing.  I Choose to play on a (kinda) Big mouthpiece because it sounds good.  not because "Dats whut Jay friedman playz".. earlier in this thread there was a lot of generalizations made about people who use big mouthpieces.  I felt as though I needed to set some issues straight.     basically one should pick a mouthpiece that you can play in tune, with an EXCELLENT sound and feel good about doing it.  Big and Small are all subjective ideas that we all try to instill in people.  teachers are a very valuable resource when it comes to discussions about gear, mostly because they know your playing more than anyone else and can tell you whats good and bad for YOU, not whats too big or too small for a guy on the trombone forum.  lol  This thread was good read.

 

[ttf_John Beers Jr.]

Quote from: musicmann320 on Mar 04, 2010, 10:49AMI feel like I need to defend some of us who use big mouthpieces.   I use a Schilke Symphony D5.2* and I am not limited in any way technically, nor do I struggle with endurance.  I use a (kinda) big mouthpiece because it is easier to play in tune, my sound is broad, the high register isn't backed up, my articulations don't get splatty, and I have a HUGE dynamic and tone color range to play with.  ALSO anything smaller would not allow me to put enough energy into my horn to get it ringing.  I Choose to play on a (kinda) Big mouthpiece because it sounds good.  not because "Dats whut Jay friedman playz".. earlier in this thread there was a lot of generalizations made about people who use big mouthpieces.  I felt as though I needed to set some issues straight.     basically one should pick a mouthpiece that you can play in tune, with an EXCELLENT sound and feel good about doing it.  Big and Small are all subjective ideas that we all try to instill in people.  teachers are a very valuable resource when it comes to discussions about gear, mostly because they know your playing more than anyone else and can tell you whats good and bad for YOU, not whats too big or too small for a guy on the trombone forum.  lol  This thread was good read.

You really need to reread the entirety of the thread- the point is that mouthpiece selection is both an art and a science for your average trombone player. Read Mr. Elliott's posts, especially, regarding the experiences he's had himself as one of the premier jazz tenor players in the USA as well as a teacher and mouthpiece manufacturer.

Embouchure type, to some degree, dictates the mouthpiece rim size to which you should congregate. For my part- 4G/S52 and larger mouthpieces (on Tenor, I agree with Mr. Elliott as well in the fact that I need to approach tenor and bass trombones as separate instruments) have always struck me as being a chore to play. I'm much more comfortable, and much more likely to practice the range of my trombone playing with my Greg Black 5G-4G or Schilke 51C4, or my Stork BT1.5 than I am with larger or smaller rim sizes (I have a 6.5AL and a 4G Bach banging around, and one of my best friends is the infamous Mahlerbone who has probably gone through more Shires/Rath/Mouthpiece iterations in 5 years than most people in their lifetimes). I've determined that wide-rimmed "Slightly-Larger-Than-5G" rim size is the ideal one for me.

Now- The D5.2 allows you the full necessary range of your trombone playing, gives you the sound quality you're looking for (or at least a sound quality approaching the one you'd prefer, it's a sad day when my expectations lower themselves to the degree that I'm happy with the way I'm playing). If you were to speak with Mr. Elliott regarding obtaining one of his pieces, he'd probably start you on a rim/cup setup similar to what you have been playing. LT/XT 102/103 with a G+ or H cup, and see what you thought. Based on your feedback, he might make small adjustments from there.

In no way would he send you a 12C sized piece with a tiny backbore and tell you to start with that. It's all about sound, comfort/endurance, and embouchure. Just like he wouldn't send you a Schilke 60 rim and ask you to use that for tenor for several weeks. It's all about finding your comfort zone and putting what Sam Burtis calls the "Soft Machine" to work to perfect things.

For example- look at Doug's post linking his recordings with Airmen Of Note with his two different mouthpiece/horn configurations. In both cases, he sounds beautiful, technical, and musical, with a very similar tone quality with, what seems to be, minor differences in openness and darkness of tone. For his part, the tiny piece drove him up the wall and he never felt comfortable with it for the full year he used it.

Find a baseline that's comfortable and appropriate to your playing/embouchure type, and see where your playing goes from there.

Just for the sake of minimizing my confusion, I'm going to try to find myself a 5G sized rim with a very shallow cup for small bore tenor playing for cheap-ish (Schilke 51B or so, though I'd like to give something equivalent to a 51A a spin).

[ttf_Slidennis]

For my tenor playing, I try to go the Largest route...  But this is maybe due to my bass playing,

where I try to go the Smallest route.

Tenor : 5GS equivalent

Bass : 1 1/2G equivalent

But

This weekend, I decided to quit playing the tenor.

I like best the only band I will still play, and there, I play bass on a lent instrument, courtesy of this band.

[ttf_svenlarsson]

Some players sound big on smallish mpc:s. And have a great low range.
Some players have a fantastic sound on very large mpc:s.
A friend of mine always use mpc:s that are 30 mm wide. He is a very good bass trombonist, but use the same size on tenor to.
Sounds great!
And he has very good stamina.

You can not tell what another player use by just listening.
Bill Pearce did sound fantastic on 12C and have outsatnding pedals down to FF.

[ttf_anonymous]

Mentally, I do not focus on how large or small a mouthpiece is.  I tell myself:  I can do this on any 'piece, but what will take the least effort and/or give the best overall result?

I started on 12C.  I still play on a 12C with my small bore.  I use in for jazz mainly because I can stay high for longer, and more accurately shift between partials.  This is what I use for jazz trombone (except for special effects, in which I sometimes use a trumpet 'piece for kicks)

On my large bore, I use a 6.5.  I have the same range, and if I felt like it, I can push my sound to the same that I get on my smaller set-up (and vice-versa).  I use this set-up to make a broad sound easily, and for more ease in the extreme lower register.

I don't have a large enough history of bass playing to say definitively what works best for me, but I remember that I used a 1.5.

For trumpet, it depends on the range, and the sound.  Used anywhere from a 1 to a 7C, generally use a 3 now.

For euphonium, I use the same mouthpiece as my large-bore. 

No idea on tuba.  My memory is sketchy on french horn, I can't quite remember what moutpiece I used to use for it.

So really, it is just using the best tool for the job.  But mentally, I never think that I need a piece of equipment to do something, I think that with effort I can play in any range, and change my tone to whatever is necessary (even if I can't).  Just remember, bass trombone used to be played with a ridiculously small bore, and it didn't stop them. 

[ttf_anonymous]

Allen Trudel dosn't have to blend in w/2-4 guys and a full orcheastra.  Depends on what your goals are, larger mouthpieces are usally used in orcheastral playing, smaller ones are mainly for jazz or soloing, or for a completely different bore in a trombone.  When it comes down to it, chops are chops, you either have them or you don't.  I think the best of the best can play on any mouthpiece they want b/c they are the best of the best.  Technique and style first then sound.  P.s. The mouthpiece "gap" was kinda bridged when Alessi got his, what bass bone rim with like 5g or 4 cup.  Makes since b/c hes is constantly soloing on CDs.   Quote from: PWCom on Jul 11, 2010, 08:33PMMentally, I do not focus on how large or small a mouthpiece is.  I tell myself:  I can do this on any 'piece, but what will take the least effort and/or give the best overall result?

I started on 12C.  I still play on a 12C with my small bore.  I use in for jazz mainly because I can stay high for longer, and more accurately shift between partials.  This is what I use for jazz trombone (except for special effects, in which I sometimes use a trumpet 'piece for kicks)

On my large bore, I use a 6.5.  I have the same range, and if I felt like it, I can push my sound to the same that I get on my smaller set-up (and vice-versa).  I use this set-up to make a broad sound easily, and for more ease in the extreme lower register.

I don't have a large enough history of bass playing to say definitively what works best for me, but I remember that I used a 1.5.

For trumpet, it depends on the range, and the sound.  Used anywhere from a 1 to a 7C, generally use a 3 now.

For euphonium, I use the same mouthpiece as my large-bore. 

No idea on tuba.  My memory is sketchy on french horn, I can't quite remember what moutpiece I used to use for it.

So really, it is just using the best tool for the job.  But mentally, I never think that I need a piece of equipment to do something, I think that with effort I can play in any range, and change my tone to whatever is necessary (even if I can't).  Just remember, bass trombone used to be played with a ridiculously small bore, and it didn't stop them. 

[ttf_anonymous]

The smallest I play a Bach 6.5AL in marching and jazz band, and the largest is the Bach 1 1/2G in concert band and orchestra...

Then again I use two different trombones, a Bach TB200B for marching and jazz, and a Bach 50B Bass with the 1 1/2G. Excellent power and full tone with both mouthpieces.

[ttf_anonymous]

I use a Monette TT-4L because it fits my chops. Honestly, in my opinion thats what matters.

_________________________________
David C.
Bach Stradivarius 42BO/Monette Prana TT-4L
Amati ASL-601/Bach Megatone 5GS

[ttf_johngsteel]

An accomplished bass bone player uses his old Holten with a Bach 2g.  Anything else, he says is too big.  (Dr. Mack from UNR, professor of low brass, symphonic band, orchestra)

My old friend Tom Bridges worked with old man Shulkie to develop the 60 for him.  When he needs a big sound, he uses the 60.  When he is not focusing on the bottom end, he uses a Mt Vernon (or is it NY?) origional George Roberts.  Anything else is too small.  Tom tries to get the biggest sound possible.  He can make a traditional bore bass sound like a large dual bore horn in debth of sound.  Range?  OMG!

So big or small, large or small, it is all about the musician and the sound they want...

[ttf_anonymous]

When I want to make lotsa noise, for short periods of time (football game, peprally) my 5G mouthpeice does the job. When it comes to making music, without as much volume my good old 6 1/2 AL-S does amazing.

[ttf_Thomas Matta]

Quote from: blast on Dec 01, 2007, 01:26AMYes Doug, I take your points. It seems to me that there has developed a distinct technique for playing large bass and small bass mouthpieces.... the embouchure is developed in different ways to get the best results from each type... big mouthpiece players having an almost 'trumpet' type setting, whilst small mouthpiece players adopt a more relaxed, 'big tenor'setting. This makes it very hard to move from one extreme to the other.. but also, for me, makes the mid-sizes a waste of time.
Chris Stearn.

This is a deep, valuable observation. Well said, Chris!

[ttf_anonymous]

Quote from: Thomas Matta on Oct 07, 2011, 10:51PMThis is a deep, valuable observation. Well said, Chris!
plus 1

My setup is a something like 2AL for orchestral trombone playing and something a like a 4AL for jazz and or soloing (screaming type playing if you will).  I'm finding it hard to switch back and forth between the two.

The 2AL type, is what my embouchure calls for, but everything gets all fuzzy an non-articulate when switching to the smaller of the two.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't lip structure have most of everthing to do with comfortablility and mouthpiece size?

Reynold Schilke once state in an article on how to choose a mouthpiece, choose as large as mouthpiece as you can tolerate, LOL, my highschool mentality took that to an extreme and found a Schilke 60 to play lead on .

Don Lucas fixed that obvious blunder for me .

But the Canadian virtuoso, Alan Trudel thinks one should pick as small mouthpiece as one can take .

I'm guessing choosing a mouthpiece is exactly like choosing a pair blue-genes, depends on who, what, when, and where,sometimes why.

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

Quote from: trombonedemon on Oct 08, 2011, 08:24AMReynold Schilke once state in an article on how to choose a mouthpiece, choose as large as mouthpiece as you can tolerate
But the Canadian virtuoso, Alan Trudel thinks one should pick as small mouthpiece as one can take
For many people including myself, "the largest you can tolerate" and "the smallest you can take" are the same thing.  Just like fitting shoes, when you finally figure out what size that is, you'll understand.  Until then, you won't.

[ttf_sabutin]

Quote from: trombonedemon on Oct 08, 2011, 08:24AMplus 1

My setup is a something like 2AL for orchestral trombone playing and something a like a 4AL for jazz and or soloing (screaming type playing if you will).  I'm finding it hard to switch back and forth between the two.

The 2AL type, is what my embouchure calls for, but everything gets all fuzzy an non-articulate when switching to the smaller of the two.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't lip structure have most of everthing to do with comfortablility and mouthpiece size?
I am not totally convinced of that, Mr. Demon. When someone with lips like Louis Armstrong can play a trumpet m'pce brilliantly?



Just sayin'.

In my own experience I have doubled quite effectively on tenor trombone (6.5 AL originally) and orchestral-sized tubas since I was in the 7th grade. I didn't know that I couldn't do this, so I just went ahead and did it. Since then I have put on about over 100 lbs of flesh and bone...I'm not fat, but I am certainly bigger in every dimension. I still feel very comfortable on a 6.5-ish rim, but as a professional lower brass doubler I also play 11C-ish m'pces, 12Cs,3,  4 and 5-ish rims and large bass trombone and tuba m'pces as well.

"Lip structure?"

Well...yeah, if you don't know how to go about using different rims.

It's all about lip mass, demon. Think of our lips as if they are a woodwind reed. (Yeah, I know. Most woodwinds have only one reed. Then imagine a double reed family as specialized as saxophones.)

Woodwind reeds are differently sized for different woodwinds.

Lower?

Bigger.

Louder/darker?

More mass.

Etc.

But...as brass players we can change that size and mass to a great degree. How? By the use of corner strength, m'pce angle(s) and lip roll(s).

Oh.

There is only one "ideal" lip positon?

I don't buy it.

Neither do many other extreme brass doublers, apparently.

Heard Charlie Vernon play bass trombone, tenor trombone and alto trombone? I cannot believe that he is using the same rim on all of them. Heard James Morrison or Trombone Shorty or Maynard Ferguson or or Howard Johnson or Claudio Roditi on lower brass instruments and trumpet/fluegelhorn? Dave Bargeron, Earl McIntyre, Jack Jeffers, Dave Taylor, myself and a host of others on trombones and tubas? I am completely sure that they are using different rims because I have played with them all. Many, many times.

Are these people simply freaks of nature?

Could be, I guess...

Or are they all just doing what they must do in order to be able to learn how to do these things?

Hmmmm....

QuoteReynold Schilke once state in an article on how to choose a mouthpiece, choose as large as mouthpiece as you can tolerate, LOL, my highschool mentality took that to an extreme and found a Schilke 60 to play lead on .

Don Lucas fixed that obvious blunder for me .

But the Canadian virtuoso, Alan Trudel thinks one should pick as small mouthpiece as one can take .
And the working NYC brass doubler Sam Burtis says...try everything and use what works. For you.

Stop listening to so many people, demon. Including me. The Zen folks have a saying. "If you meet the Buddha by the side of the road, kill him."

Yup.

The American black freedom pioneer Marcus Garvey also had a saying.

"Do for self."

Yup. Squared.

QuoteI'm guessing choosing a mouthpiece is exactly like choosing a pair blue-genes, depends on who, what, when, and where,sometimes why.

So...do you consult a panel of experts when choosing a pair of pants, too?

Of course not.

You go try some on, choose the ones that seem to fit best and then go on about your business. When you outgrow them or situations change, you go get some others.

Like dat.

Bet on it.

Later...

S.

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

I have a gig tonight where I'll be faking bass trombone in a big band.  I never claim to actually play bass trombone.  I suppose if I had the time and desire, I could learn to do it reasonably well.  But I don't even own one - I use my .547 on the rare occasions when I am called to play that part. 

Although I use a quite large mouthpiece rim size on all my tenor playing, which is mostly lead in big bands, latin bands, and smaller groups where I'm the only trombone - as well as a little orchestra playing on both large tenor and alto - I can't, and would not seriously try, to play the bass part on that same rim size.  I will be using my MB 109J9 tonight.  Faking bass trombone, the 109 rim is both "the largest I can tolerate" and "the smallest I can take" at this particular point.

[ttf_savio]

That MB109 is a good choice with a very comfortable rim. Its special because I don't think there is so many other in that specific size. When looking for a size that fit the mouth, this one could be the one for many. Anyway it sounds great, I know. I think your gig will go very OK. Must be fun to do another "role" sometimes?

Leif

[ttf_BrandonB]

I am the lead trombone in my highschool marching band, and today I wrote down who was on what mouthpeice, listened to them, and found different mouthpeices for them to try. I have found that only me and 2nd chair can get a good tone from the 5G my dirrector wanted us all on. The biggest improvement I got from this was taking a person off a 5G and putting her on a 6 1/2. She went from almost no tone to a full powerful tone.

Another person got better sound out of a 12c than a 6 1/2.

You can get too big, and you can get too small on a mouthpeice, it all depends on the person.

[ttf_BGuttman]

You're lucky your BD wasn't a trumpet player.  We had a report a few years back that the BD decided since a 1C was a nice trumpet piece, the trombone players should all use 1G's.

[ttf_BrandonB]

My band dirrector is an amazing trombone player, but that's his problem, he doesn't realise that some people just can't handle large mouthpeices like he can...and I can't immagine anything larger than a 5G, but I like the 5g better than my 6 1/2 AL-S because I can get a lot louder on the 5G. Pep rallys are the only place I can use the extra volume though, I've been known to overpower the entire band at fortismo

[ttf_Fishlips]

If you have a small bore shank, try a 5GS. It's a 5G rim with a 6.5 AL backbore and shank. An in-betweener. Gets a bigger sound than a true 6.5 AL, but not as big as the 5G.

[ttf_ssking2b]

I have found the philosphy of "What ever works" to be just fine.  I also tell this to my students, with some suggestions.  I play both big and little mouthpieces, as well as bass and tenor trombone.  Depending on what type of playing you are doing, mouthpiece size can be relevant.  Horn size, too.  If I show up on an orchestral gig with mt 2B the other trombonists think I'm using the wrong equipment - so I am dismissed as a serious player (I don't really bring the 2B - I bring my 88H or my bass trombone depending on what part I am playing). They seem to have no problem showing up on my jazz gig with a 42B and are offended when I point out that that is not the right equipment for the genre we are performing.  I suspect it is legit horn snobbery when that is the reaction.

Your equipment should fit the job you expect it to do.  In an orchestra I will play big equipment and a big mouthpiece because that is the excepted standard, and the same goes for the 2B on a jazz gig.  I don't like big equipment when it stops sounding like a trombone and starts to sound like euphonium on a stick - and there's plenty of that going around.  I also don't like a small horn sound so brite it hurts.  I try to find the right size horn znd mouthpiece to fit the situation and give me a real trombone sound in the context that I am performing.

[ttf_digitaltrombone]

I´d say that playing a small mouthpiece is often more difficult than playing on a large! Since the bore is smaller, the air flow needs to be very accurate in order to pass through effortless. Go for comfort, sound and ease of use, and make sure your breathing is in place!

Small horn+small mouthpiece=good
Small horn+big mouthpiece=good
Big horn+small mouthpiece=good
Big horn+big mouthpiece=good...

[ttf_Slidennis]

Everything's said just above my post!!!   

I plaid a 12C for 15 years...
I'm now on a 3G...

And I always wanted to play the smallest mpc I could...

I had a very bad range when I played the 12C.
Not the case anymore...

I suppose I worked a lot to improve my playing...  That was the main benefit of changing mp and trombones...   

[ttf_Dukesboneman]

As I`ve stated many times before, My mouthpiece of choice is a Mount Vernon Bach 7C. My private teachers in High school put me on a 6 1/2AL with my 88H, which in 1972 was THE Mouthpiece to have. I used it but it never felt very good. I could never really "grab" the notes like I wanted to. College I was put on a Schilke 51B. Cup size felt a little better but same feel problems with the rim.
Started my student teaching and forgot my horn one day, cooperating teachers says " wash out the mouthpiece & use my horn" Bach 34 w/ a 7C. WOW !!!!!!!!   My range jumped , my sound felt more in control and I could suddenly "grab" my notes. Revelation !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post college ...  Had a Bach7 made with a bass shank and bored it out , still my go to bass shank mouthpiece. Now I only use it on my dual bore 8H.
All my other horns have either 7C or a 7, except my 42 bell/36 slide combo where I use a Schilke 51 bottom on a 7 rim.
Now growing up in Rochester, NY and under the pervasive influence of Eastman, It`s drilled in your head play the biggest mouthpiece possible and always get an orchestral sound. So I went over the years thru just about every major manufactorer looking for THE mouthpiece.
One day it hit me, who cares what other people think I should play on. I can play from a pedal F to a double A with a good tone. So I quit the mouthpiece of the month club and really focused on the 7C`s. It`s been about 8 to 10 years now and I`ve seen a huge change in my playing for the better. I should also mention that My teeth or not straight and I have a jutting front tooth so the 7C/7 is about the largest and most comfy I can go.
And also realized that what works on college when you have all the time you want to practice and the REAL WORLD are too different animals.
 

[ttf_ssking2b]

Quote from: Dukesboneman on Oct 12, 2012, 03:53PM"...what works on college when you have all the time you want to practice and the REAL WORLD are too different animals."
AMEN to that.  When you are n the real world playing for a living, or just for fun, you have to use the equipment that suits the job and works for you.