TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible

[ttf_drizabone]

Wisdom 2 text

Highlights

 - down with Nietzsche and the Preacher

Summary

 - "They" reasoned unsoundly:
    - that life is short and has no purpose, it is just like the passing of a shadow
    - so we might as well live for ourselves and do what ever we like
    - and bash up the righteous man cause he's just a stupid pain in the neck.
    - If he's really right God will look after him
    - so let's torment him to see if he really is that good
    - lets kill him shamefully, God will protect him,  Ha Ha.
 - But they were wrong because they did not know Gods secret purposes.
 - God created us for eternity, but death entered the world through the devil

Questions and Observations

1) This is interesting!
2) it starts off being anti-ecclesiastes and then morphs into a nietzschean-atheist critique (ie a critique of atheists with sim beliefs to Nietzsche).
3) and even has some suggestions of the gospel and Paul
4) and we have some references to incorruption and eternity (ie afterlife) which seem to show a more NT like undersanding of death and immortality than OT
5) the first chapter was more similar to Proverbs

[ttf_drizabone]

Wisdom 3 text

Highlights

 - the hope of the righteous and the ungodly

Summary

 - the righteous have immortality as their hope
 - God tests them and when he finds they are worthy of him, gives them great reward
 - they will rule nations and live with him in love because he watches over them
 - but the ungodly will be punished as they deserve
 - their hope is in vain and their works are in vain
 - the childless who are faithful will be blessed
 - but the end of the unrighteous is greivous

Questions and Observations

1) more on immortality and reward after life that is pretty similar to Hebrews although its got an OT focus on works.
2) the children of the wicked are punished.  This is not in line with current ideas of personal responsibility is it. I think there might be a similarity to the previous punishment of the ungodly where the hope (ie their children) are in vain, but still.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Been a little busy the last few days... Catching up...

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMPart I - The Tetrateuch
Genesis

• [li]Big picture stuff
  • [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
  [/li][li]Abraham; extensive travels, original covenant, Lot, not sacrificing Isaac[/li][li]Jacob; conflict with twin Esau, banishment, wives, 12 sons[/li][li]Joseph; betrayal to Egypt, rise, saving of family, supposed origins of 12 tribes[/li]

Exodus

• [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]

Leviticus

• [li]...many laws are given[/li]

Numbers

• [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 16, 2016, 04:49AMPart II - The Deuteronomistic History
Deuteronomy

• [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]

Joshua

• [li]Conquest of Canaan under Joshua[/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes, East and West banks of the Jordan[/li]

Judges

• [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest, compare with previous book[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson[/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North and the Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]

Ruth

• [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times in the era of the Judges[/li]

1 Samuel

• [li]Samuel is a priestly leader in a time of Philistine conflicts who needs a worthy successor[/li][li]Saul is appointed to the new role of king and with his son Jonathan defeats the Ammonites, Philistines, Amalekites, but he falls out with Samuel, who anoints David as a replacement king secretly[/li][li]David (a military hero) and Saul vie for superiority over a long period, eventually brought to an end when the Philistines kill Saul in battle[/li]

2 Samuel

• [li]The kingdom nearly splits, but David unites it, doing many heroic deeds[/li][li]But in time he becomes morally suspect and manipulated by schemers[/li]

1 Kings

• [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally but gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom, building the "first temple" and a palace; however, like David he becomes morally suspect in time[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Kings succeed in both Israel and Judah; Elijah gains prominence as a prophet[/li]

2 Kings

• [li]Long successions of kings of both Israel and Judah are described, and the prophet Elisha comes to prominence[/li][li]Most kings do not prioritise Yahweh-worship - none in Israel, but some in Judah.
  [/li][li]First Israel then Judah are unable to tread the difficult path of negotiation between stronger powers on either side, with both populations destroyed and exiled by 586 BC[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Oct 28, 2016, 07:11AMPart III - The Chronicler's History
1 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of genealogy to the beginning; return of some exiles to Judah[/li][li]Recap of Samuel written to favour David more highly[/li]

2 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of Kings with only the Judah parts and a focus on relations with Yahweh[/li][li]End of exile when Babylon falls[/li]

Ezra

• [li]Cyrus of Persia commands Judah to return home and rebuild their temple; decades later Artaxerxes of Persia commands Ezra to lead a second wave of returnees[/li]

Nehemiah

• [li]Nehemiah, a Judahite official of Artaxerxes of Persia, is appointed governor of Judah, rebuilding Jerusalem's wall; he and Ezra organise Judah, mixing enlightened social reform with brutally dogmatic interpretations of Mosaic law[/li]

Tobit Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]Tobit and his son Tobias are exiled in Nineveh when Israel falls, while Sarah lives in Media; a demon has killed seven of her husbands. With an angel's help, Tobias rescues her, and everyone lives happily ever after[/li]

Judith Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]Nebuchadnezzar is enraged by the Israelites' failure to answer a military summons, and despatches his general Holofernes with his army to suppress them; Judith, a beautiful Israelite widow, uses feminine wiles to distract Holofernes, killing him[/li]

Esther

• [li]Jewish exile in Susa Esther wins a beauty contest to become queen of Persia; factions vie to destroy the Jews in Persia, but the influence of her and her uncle Mordecai carries the day[/li]

1 Maccabees Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]In the 160s BC the Greek rulers attempt a religious crackdown in Judaea, against which Judas Maccabeus leads a rebellion[/li][li]Various competing empires trade blows, and all the while the rebellion becomes more secure; Jonathan Apphus and then Simon Thassi succeed Judas and establish a medium-term peace, along with Simon's dynasty, the Hasmonaeans[/li]

2 Maccabees  Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]Prior to the Maccabean revolt, unedifying political struggles within the priesthood result in turmoil, resulting in the crackdown of 1 Maccabees; Judas leads the first portion of his revolt, in less detail this time[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Feb 22, 2017, 02:58AMPart IV - Wisdom Literature
Job

• [li]Job is a wealthy and good man, devoted to Yahweh[/li][li]Satan talks Yahweh into letting him test Job's faith, which he does by destroying his fortune, family, and health[/li][li]Job and his friends talk it over at length; Job is convinced of his innocence, his friends of his guilt[/li][li]Yahweh eventually turns up and ticks them all off for not respecting him enough; he restores Job's fortunes twice over[/li]

Psalms

• [li]Large collection of devotional songs/poems, whose themes include
  • [li]Overarching powerfulness of Yahweh[/li][li]Need to praise and thank Yahweh[/li][li]How bad it feels when Yahweh feels absent, and how good it feels when he feels present[/li]
  [/li]

Prayer of Manasseh Orthodox

• [li]An extra psalm[/li]

Proverbs

• [li]Large collection of wise sayings, many attributed to King Solomon. Major themes include:
  • [li]Industriousness, Humility, Fair dealing, Marital faithfulness, Religious devotion, Political savvy[/li]
  [/li]

Ecclesiastes

• [li]A harshly pragmatic sermon, attributed to Solomon, with the moral: All that one achieves will perish; the only true joy is to be taken in doing the tasks in front of you[/li]

Song of Solomon

• [li]A borderline erotic exaltation of the joys of love, possibly between Solomon and his bride, possibly between his bride and her lover[/li]

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 01, 2017, 03:34PMWisdom 1 text

 - righteousness is immortal but the ungodly summon death

Is this a simple reference of the idea that faithfulness puts you forward as a candidate for afterlife? Or is it an express of "not like us" aimed at unbelievers?

Ah, I see that they go on to make things clearer in the next chapter...

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 04, 2017, 12:30AMWisdom 2 text

Highlights

 - down with Nietzsche and the Preacher
 

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 04, 2017, 12:30AMSummary

 - "They" reasoned unsoundly:
    - that life is short and has no purpose, it is just like the passing of a shadow
This unbeliever's take on the text's thoughts: "Fair enough".

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 04, 2017, 12:30AM    - so we might as well live for ourselves and do what ever we like
This unbeliever's take on the text's thoughts: "Considerable oversimplification of what not believing implies, a logical mistake also made by John in the conversation I had with him a few pages back. If one lives in this fashion, the problems inherent in totally selfish action become very quickly apparent. Enlightened self-interest rules the day, where you do good for others because it spreads happiness and goodwill, which is good for everyone, including yourself. While of course not every atheist has the same thoughts in their head, and the same fraction are good, bad, and indifferent people as you'll find within organised religion, it is indeed rare to find people that act in totally selfish ways. I would also note that amongst those that act selfishly, I have observed Christians in proportionate number to their overall occurrence in the population."

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 04, 2017, 12:30AM    - and bash up the righteous man cause he's just a stupid pain in the neck.
    - If he's really right God will look after him
    - so let's torment him to see if he really is that good
    - lets kill him shamefully, God will protect him,  Ha Ha.
This unbeliever's take on the text's thoughts: "Gone a bit hatstand here... Lost his marbles. This is the kind of moment one sometimes has with people who prefer to believe in things rather than trust the evidence of their senses - and I'm not poking at religiousness here, although it can certainly lead people to such places when not borne in mind with enough carefulness. Climate change denial, or belief in innate racial differences, for example, provide plenty of modern examples; you talk to someone who seems reasonable, you pleasantly walk through a few ideas - and then... BAM! 'Where did that come from?' one asks oneself, while retreating rapidly to an obsessive-loony-free zone and editing one's Christmas card list..."

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 04, 2017, 12:30AM - But they were wrong because they did not know Gods secret purposes.
 - God created us for eternity, but death entered the world through the devil

Questions and Observations

1) This is interesting!
2) it starts off being anti-ecclesiastes and then morphs into a nietzschean-atheist critique (ie a critique of atheists with sim beliefs to Nietzsche).
I'm not well up on Nietzsche. In my head, I have him pegged as the "Might is Right" man. Quickly reading up online, I see that his line was more or less that exceptional people shouldn't be bound by moral rules. Is that more or less it? A pretty objectionable conclusion in which one can see enormous immediate holes.

The author here pokes their finger into those holes, but they miss what I see as the point, preferring instead to frame things in their religious fashion.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 04, 2017, 12:30AM3) and even has some suggestions of the gospel and Paul
4) and we have some references to incorruption and eternity (ie afterlife) which seem to show a more NT like undersanding of death and immortality than OT
5) the first chapter was more similar to Proverbs

Are you feeling that the late date of authorship of this work is apparent?

Odd that they use "Hades" where previously "Sheol" has been used. This I suppose is a Greek influence.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 04, 2017, 08:44PMWisdom 3 text

More brass band highlights... The opening lines of this chapter - the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God etc. - are the basis of Eric Ball's famous and emotionally intense 1950 work for band, Resurgam.

The closing lines of the chapter are a bit peculiar... Sins of the fathers visited on the children. Pretty indefensible, morally.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Wisdom 4 text

Highlights

 - The righteous may feel smug

Summary

 - Better to be childless and virtuous than a bad person who breeds
 - People will recognise and champion virtuousness
 - Those that result from unvirtuous unions are doomed to fail
 - Those that were taken early to God were taken in order to protect their goodness from being later spoilt by contact with the world
 - The righteous will see the unrighteous and judge them
 - Then God will

Questions and Observations

1) Predestination is rearing its ugly head here. Surely Christians don't widely believe that the children of bad circumstance are doomed to repeat errors? There are simply far too many counterexamples for it to hold up as a proposition.
2) But telling people that such actions will result will achieve two things amongst those that are listening: i) Warn them not to; ii) Encourage them to treat children resulting from those that did as 'outsiders'. There are a lot of potential counter-productive outcomes from such advice.
3) Those taken early must refer to Elijah, etc.?
4) It doesn't show much confidence in their actual strength in goodness not to leave them in the world, spreading more goodness; rather taking them away to protect them.
5) A bit unChristian to be judging people as keenly as is stated here, no? Doing so risks one's own bona fides...
6) The line about the righteous dead judging the unrighteous living implies some kind of participatory afterlife, which I don't think we've seen before?

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 05, 2017, 05:32AM
Is this a simple reference of the idea that faithfulness puts you forward as a candidate for afterlife? Or is it an express of "not like us" aimed at unbelievers?


Just to be clear that I don't really count this as "The Real Bible" so I don't consider it authoritative and I'm not familiar with it either, but its interesting (much more that Tobit and the other DC books) and seems to have similar themes to the Real Bible so let's go from there.

Assuming that the book was written to encourage Jew's who were facing persecution in Alexandria, it seems to me that it is aimed at Jew's to encourage them to be faithful.

QuoteThis unbeliever's take on the text's thoughts: "Gone a bit hatstand here... Lost his marbles. ...

But there have been many times in recent history where Jews and other minorities have faced similar attitudes.  So I don't see this as being historically unreasonable description

QuoteI'm not well up on Nietzsche. In my head, I have him pegged as the "Might is Right" man. Quickly reading up online, I see that his line was more or less that exceptional people shouldn't be bound by moral rules. Is that more or less it? A pretty objectionable conclusion in which one can see enormous immediate holes.

My simplistic understanding of Nietzsche was that he thought
- God was dead
- humans could only find meaning by acheiving your will
- that man could evolve to become Übermensch by the strong surviving while the weak didn't

That seems logical to me given his preconceptions.

So does yours if you have happiness and max utility as supreme virtues.  Its the starting point that counts.

Incidentally I've read that Nietzsche concisdered that the pursuit of happiness as a goal typical of the English society. I know its a stereotype but I do see you in that

QuoteAre you feeling that the late date of authorship of this work is apparent?

yep, looks that way to me.

QuoteOdd that they use "Hades" where previously "Sheol" has been used. This I suppose is a Greek influence.

sounds reasonable

QuoteMore brass band highlights... The opening lines of this chapter - the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God etc. - are the basis of Eric Ball's famous and emotionally intense 1950 work for band, Resurgam.

I've played that.  Its a great piece. Lots of other Eric Ball pieces to but Resurgam is my fav.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 05, 2017, 05:49AM
...

1) Predestination is rearing its ugly head here. Surely Christians don't widely believe that the children of bad circumstance are doomed to repeat errors? There are simply far too many counterexamples for it to hold up as a proposition.

Nobody likes predestination

You didn't complain when the righteous were promised that they would have lots of kids and that they would prosper, wasn't that ugly predestination too?

My take on predestination is that it works in conjunction with our voluntary choices.  It sounds unintuitive but then there are experiments that show our free will is illusionary too.  So predestanation is as much about the consequences of our decisions as about our doom.

And I also don't see this as "inspired" so it may not be correct.

Quote2) But telling people that such actions will result will achieve two things amongst those that are listening: i) Warn them not to; ii) Encourage them to treat children resulting from those that did as 'outsiders'. There are a lot of potential counter-productive outcomes from such advice.

I see this in the context of an encouragement to a persecuted minority, so that would not have been a problem.

Quote3) Those taken early must refer to Elijah, etc.?

I was thinking of Enoch in Genesis too.

Quote4) It doesn't show much confidence in their actual strength in goodness not to leave them in the world, spreading more goodness; rather taking them away to protect them.

once again its written to a persecuted minority. 

Quote5) A bit unChristian to be judging people as keenly as is stated here, no? Doing so risks one's own bona fides...

is this v16? this is after death?  So it seems to me to be about giving the persecuted a hope that there will be some justice for them.  I'm not sure how this risks one's bona fides...

Quote6) The line about the righteous dead judging the unrighteous living implies some kind of participatory afterlife, which I don't think we've seen before?

Yes and No.  Its channeling Revelation now.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2017, 02:32AMJust to be clear that I don't really count this as "The Real Bible" so I don't consider it authoritative and I'm not familiar with it either, but its interesting (much more that Tobit and the other DC books) and seems to have similar themes to the Real Bible so let's go from there.
Gotcha. I shan't beat you with it...   

The deuterocanon seems in the protestant world to be a kind of supplementary reading list - "further topics recommended for the interested reader". It's endorsed by your authorities as good stuff, but not as the pure strain that the rest is.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2017, 02:32AMAssuming that the book was written to encourage Jew's who were facing persecution in Alexandria, it seems to me that it is aimed at Jew's to encourage them to be faithful.
Doing the same Googling you were (hello Wikipedia!), it seems to me that the positive identification of this book as coming from Alexandria at the very precise date of 26 BC is one person's theory, not widely accepted. We know that it was written in Greek, but patterned after earlier Hebrew verse styles, placing words in the mouth of Solomon (as we've seen elsewhere in Wisdom literature). We are told (I certainly don't have the expertise to tell this) that the author's mode of expression shows fluency in Greek philosophies such as that of Aristotle, making them very likely an Alexandrian Jew. We are also told that the political events of Jewish persecution decried later in the book relate to some period around the 100s BC, but no-one seems at all clear exactly when (barring the 26 BC chap, who seems very certain). This seems quite a good summary of points.

All of which is a long way to say: Yes, that seems a reasonable idea. Goes some way to explaining the tub-thumping emphasis on denunciation of not taking part in their faith.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2017, 02:32AMBut there have been many times in recent history where Jews and other minorities have faced similar attitudes.  So I don't see this as being historically unreasonable description
Well, it is and it isn't. It feels overstringent to be getting on the case of someone from a persecuted minority for failing to distinguish between those not of their group that are and aren't persecuting them. But it is a very important difference, given that the intellectual descendants of their group came to exert an overweening later influence on world affairs - Christianity is everywhere. The broad-brushed cry of pain of a sufferer identifying those making them suffer gets translated into a meaning out of all recognition from their intention by the enormous expansion of the scope of applicability of their words in the hands of later transmitters of their work.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2017, 02:32AMMy simplistic understanding of Nietzsche was that he thought
- God was dead
- humans could only find meaning by acheiving your will
- that man could evolve to become Übermensch by the strong surviving while the weak didn't

That seems logical to me given his preconceptions.

So does yours if you have happiness and max utility as supreme virtues.  Its the starting point that counts.

Incidentally I've read that Nietzsche concisdered that the pursuit of happiness as a goal typical of the English society. I know its a stereotype but I do see you in that
Hah! There are worse stereotypes to be pegged with! Funny how things align and collide; how as we grow uncertainly we lean on what we perceive as positive attributes of the culture around us, which grow into us. Funny also how others want to see matching characteristics in us, and react accordingly. A British accent tends to be a helpful thing in the States... But in e.g. Northern Ireland can be a liability in certain places. The person behind the accent gets somewhat overlooked.

Nietzsche lived at a time (1844-1900) when British society was starting to address, sometimes energetically, the startling inequities that its rapid industrial expansion (layered on top of the remnants of a feudal class system) had produced. The idea of radically improving the lot of the masses gained vast traction at this time, to the clear betterment of the place. The British socialist movement as a political force was just starting to come into being when he died, and the major achievements that sprang directly from that well of thought are what people still prize about the country, in the main - the state pension, the National Health Service, free education, and most generally the ability to work oneself into a much better life position without having to feel embarrassed about the journey upon arrival. But... People have forgotten how this all happened. There are those (plenty of them) that will praise the NHS while simultaneously calling socialism a "failed philosophy". The contradiction of their words seems lost on them. We seem to be in an age where the humanitarian achievements of those that helped the masses are being slowly chipped away. I hope we'll notice what we're losing before it's gone...

Well, that was a tangent... I am very cautious in general about subscribing to the divination of particular national characteristics. It's very easy to persuade oneself of the truth of almost anything, given that the enormous variety of personalities within a country's population will supply one with practically endless examples fitting any particular prejudice. There are plenty of English that live balanced and happy existences, and there are plenty of English that live inside crabbed and vicious mindsets, bent on hurting others. Just as there are plenty of Germans (or Australians, or Americans) similar...
There's a handy (perhaps THE seminal) example of he dangers of applying national characteristics as real right in front of our noses here. The Nazis were keen readers of Nietzsche, seeing in his ideas the moral justification for their attempt to dominate all - and, even more to their taste, expressed in a German accent.

I tend to think that to ask "How do we achieve meaning?" is to ask a nonsense question; if that was how Nietzsche put it, then no wonder he took a strange path. The writer of Ecclesiastes saw with searing clarity that attempts to define such are doomed from the outset, and their prescription of instead taking satisfaction in seeing one's local part of things well-ordered to one's best ability while acting with humility is the only one I've even really ever seen proposed. We've stepped back a very long way from the specific here, and it is hard to think of new ways of thinking about this that genuinely don't fall into the established categories of: i) Distract oneself by constant vain striving; ii) Make one's peace with one's life; iii) Believe in soothing flights of fancy.
Then, having come to (ii), what attributes does one find oneself prioritising? Well, happiness, surely... What other answer is there?

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2017, 03:00AMNobody likes predestination

You didn't complain when the righteous were promised that they would have lots of kids and that they would prosper, wasn't that ugly predestination too?
Yep. Consider my objection implicitly registered. It just isn't as nasty to promise your supporters good times as it is to promise your non-supporters bad times.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2017, 03:00AMMy take on predestination is that it works in conjunction with our voluntary choices.  It sounds unintuitive but then there are experiments that show our free will is illusionary too.  So predestanation is as much about the consequences of our decisions as about our doom.
Our brains are very complex assemblies of smaller responses, each of which may be individually predictable. If you add up a whole huge pile of predictable things, in one sense you get a predictable whole (and certainly we all have plenty of behaviours that are not all that complex). But in another you don't. Emergent complexity is an extremely powerful and only weakly understood thing - the phenomenon whereby standing further back from something built in small and predictable ways gives you a new perspective that lets you see amazing new structures appearing.

Free will? My money's on that concept being one that, once everything is understood fully, will be an oxymoron. But who knows? And even if we do come to understand that, it shouldn't spoil anything for us. Life will still be rich and nuanced.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2017, 03:00AMis this v16? this is after death?  So it seems to me to be about giving the persecuted a hope that there will be some justice for them.  I'm not sure how this risks one's bona fides...
Yep. Seems to me that it's awfully close to getting into being prideful...

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2017, 03:00AMYes and No.  Its channeling Revelation now.

Or rather, Revelation was channelling this?

[ttf_Baron von Bone]

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 06, 2017, 03:00AMMy take on predestination is that it works in conjunction with our voluntary choices.  It sounds unintuitive but then there are experiments that show our free will is illusionary too.  So predestanation is as much about the consequences of our decisions as about our doom.
It just adds fuel to the fire built on the rather extreme ethical problems with creating something and then punishing it for the way it turned out ... much less eternally (and giving the creation free will doesn't somehow exonerate the creator of responsibility for the whole nasty situation--only causes problems for truly omnipotent, allegedly benevolent creator gods though).

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Quote from: Baron von Bone on Mar 06, 2017, 10:13AM
It just adds fuel to the fire built on the rather extreme ethical problems with creating something and then punishing it for the way it turned out ... much less eternally (and giving the creation free will doesn't somehow exonerate the creator of responsibility for the whole nasty situation--only causes problems for truly omnipotent, allegedly benevolent creator gods though).

The "problems" are psychological, not logical.  In other words, unbelievers don't like the answers believers give. The answers believers give are logical.  Unbelievers just need to admit that they don't like them.  You have a right not to like them, but that's a very different issue.

We've discussed this on other posts here on TTF and we shouldn't hijack this post.

[ttf_Baron von Bone]

Quote from: John the Theologian on Mar 06, 2017, 11:27AMThe "problems" are psychological, not logical.  In other words, unbelievers don't like the answers believers give. The answers believers give are logical.  Unbelievers just need to admit that they don't like them.  You have a right not to like them, but that's a very different issue.

We've discussed this on other posts here on TTF and we shouldn't hijack this post.
Agreed.
 
Best not to post a set of pure, transparently self-serving presumptions in order to accomplish that alleged goal though.

[ttf_drizabone]

Wisdom 5 text

Highlights

 - Consequences

Summary

 - Then (after the resurrection) the righteous will be vindicated
 - and the unrighteous will realize how foolish they were
 - they see the things that they valued disappear
 - the righteous will live forever and get great reward
 - Creation will turn against the unrighteous

Questions and Observations

1) Getting quite judgemental here. At least you can't accuse the believers of dishing out the punishment - its the unrighteous doing it to each other.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Interesting that the word 'saint' is used. I don't think we've seen this before? Does Judaism have saints? It seems that there is some equivalent concept, though I think few of the trappings of mysticism with which the Catholic church in particular wrapped sainthood in later times.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Wisdom 6 text

Highlights

 - Wisdom is for kings too
 - How to seek wisdom

Summary

 - Kings are under God, and should discipline themselves accordingly, on pain of the usual threat
 - Wisdom can be found by those that seek it
 - The first step to seeking it is to be humble
 - Becoming wise is associated with the author's religious faith
 - A wise king is good for his people

Questions and Observations

1) This chapter seems in the nature of a prelude to what follows - an address put into the mouth of King Solomon.
2) Some of the ideas here one finds in other religious traditions also. Regarding needing to be humble to become wise, it is a popular theme in every major tradition. This makes sense to me - it is rather foundational to say that one cannot learn without being willing to learn.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 07, 2017, 07:36AMInteresting that the word 'saint' is used. I don't think we've seen this before? Does Judaism have saints? It seems that there is some equivalent concept, though I think few of the trappings of mysticism with which the Catholic church in particular wrapped sainthood in later times.

Assuming the RC church teaching that saint is someone who is super holy then I'd expect that Judaism would revere Abraham and Moses and other prophets in a similar way.  But that is just me extrapolating from incomplete data. (There's a joke about that)  For us Protestants all christians are saints, not because they are super holy (that's obvious) but because they have been saved.

[ttf_drizabone]

Wisdom 7 text

Highlights

 - Wisdom is the best

Summary

 - I (Solomon) and other kings are human and mortal just like everyone else
 - So I prayed to God and asked for wisdom and understanding and valued it more than anything else
 - May God allow me to judge according to the wisdom that he has given me
 - Wisdom is superlative

Questions and Observations

1)

[ttf_MoominDave]

It is described how the writer saw Solomon seeking wisdom in this chapter. The urge to improve one's mind by contemplating and concluding is one common to all generations of humanity. Over time, we've refined and codified the structure of the process, finding that constant on-guard scepticism assuaged only by testing is necessary to be confident in one's conclusions. And, in doing so, we've built a modern edifice of knowledge that dwarfs any assembled before (at least, so far as our wisdom is aware...).

It's never been easier to avail oneself of the fruits of wisdom than it is now. But paradoxically we hear loud and alienated voices calling for the suppression of certain types of earned knowledge.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Wisdom 8 text
Wisdom 9 text

Highlights

 - Solomon finds wisdom in religious faith

Summary

Chapter 8
 - Solomon talks of how he always sought and valued wisdom, speaking of a personification of it
 - He found her living with his God
 - She knows everything, and values righteousness
 - Taking her, he was confident that his opinions would be highly valued
 - As a child he perceived that he needed to ask his God for access to wisdom

Chapter 9
 - So he did

Questions and Observations

1) This seems very much to me to be the basic angle of this book - that wisdom is best to be found within the religious framework here prescribed.

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 08, 2017, 06:32AMWisdom 8 text
Wisdom 9 text

Highlights

 - Solomon finds wisdom in religious faith

Summary

Chapter 8
 - Solomon talks of how he always sought and valued wisdom, speaking of a personification of it
 - He found her living with his God
 - She knows everything, and values righteousness
 - Taking her, he was confident that his opinions would be highly valued
 - As a child he perceived that he needed to ask his God for access to wisdom

Chapter 9
 - So he did

Questions and Observations

1) This seems very much to me to be the basic angle of this book - that wisdom is best to be found within the religious framework here prescribed.

It's the basic angle of all of the scriptures on where wisdom is to be found, so that is no real surprise.

[ttf_ddickerson]

The New Testament in John describes where the 'source' of 'ALL' Wisdom comes. This book doesn't exactly spell that out.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: John the Theologian on Mar 08, 2017, 07:19AMIt's the basic angle of all of the scriptures on where wisdom is to be found, so that is no real surprise.

In a broad sense, a fair point. In a specific sense, still a fair point, but there's room to quibble around the edges. Proverbs, for example, contained many precepts that did not depend on being tied to devoutness, and as such can be used to enhance the life of anyone interested, regardless of their faith position. Wisdom thus far has been much more interested in telling us that true wisdom comes with devoutness than in supplying us with practical ideas.

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 08, 2017, 07:50AMIn a broad sense, a fair point. In a specific sense, still a fair point, but there's room to quibble around the edges. Proverbs, for example, contained many precepts that did not depend on being tied to devoutness, and as such can be used to enhance the life of anyone interested, regardless of their faith position. Wisdom thus far has been much more interested in telling us that true wisdom comes with devoutness than in supplying us with practical ideas.

However, the theme that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" that is repeated in Proverbs is the important foundation.  The compiler of the Proverbs in the book by that name is arguing that this starting point is what makes the little practical "gems" work.  To overlook that starting point-- similar to the point of Ecclesiastes that accepting life as a gift from God, fearing God and keeping his commandments, etc. is the outlook that truly overturns what otherwise would be vanity-- is the basic staring point of all the Wisdom literature.  Yes, the individual precepts can be pulled out of the book, but for the compiler one would still not be "wise" at all if one does not have the fear of God which is the beginning of wisdom.  According to this perspective, one would use those precepts in an ultimately unwise way. This also seems to be the same point in Wisdom.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Whereas Proverbs and even Ecclesiastes seemed to me to be saying "Here's some ideas about how to live your life, and here's the framework on which we tie them", Wisdom only seems to me to have the framework.

I can take as read that all wiseness was thought by the authors to be anchored in devotion. I can also feed back that from my perspective, while Wisdom is telling me slightly abstract things about how Judaists and Christians expect each other to live their lives, an interesting enough topic, Proverbs supplied me with a large number of little rules of thumb that I'd be happy to quote to another non-believer, secure in their wisdom outside of the faith domain. In my heathen way, I can sit and wonder whether the author of Proverbs really thought that these maxims were less valuable without the faith element. It doesn't seem to me to be an obviously answered question, requiring access to the mind of someone over two millennia dead who we only know through that book as it does.

In terms of doing a good PR job for the Bible and those that try to live by it, Proverbs is hands down running away with the title thus far, in my judgment.

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 08, 2017, 08:25AMWhereas Proverbs and even Ecclesiastes seemed to me to be saying "Here's some ideas about how to live your life, and here's the framework on which we tie them", Wisdom only seems to me to have the framework.

I can take as read that all wiseness was thought by the authors to be anchored in devotion. I can also feed back that from my perspective, while Wisdom is telling me slightly abstract things about how Judaists and Christians expect each other to live their lives, an interesting enough topic, Proverbs supplied me with a large number of little rules of thumb that I'd be happy to quote to another non-believer, secure in their wisdom outside of the faith domain. In my heathen way, I can sit and wonder whether the author of Proverbs really thought that these maxims were less valuable without the faith element. It doesn't seem to me to be an obviously answered question, requiring access to the mind of someone over two millennia dead who we only know through that book as it does.

In terms of doing a good PR job for the Bible and those that try to live by it, Proverbs is hands down running away with the title thus far, in my judgment.

I don't think it requires access to the compiler of Proverb's mind when he states several times that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.  That is a paradigmatic statement.  Just as I believe that is very good if everyone would live by biblical ethics, I still would not think that an unbeliever would be truly wise, let alone ultimately to receive eternal benefit from living according to those precepts.  All of the wisdom literature is simply arguing that the religious aspect is the true foundation that puts the ethical aspect into its proper perspective.  I understand unbelievers want to separate out the ethical.  From a believer's perspective that is hanging those precepts on a foundationless sky hook. 

[ttf_MoominDave]

Yes, I get that. Just as the opposite holds true from the unbeliever's perspective. Similar to our recent discussion upthread.

Regarding what the compiler was thinking, I also understand that the way my speculation runs is not innately appealing to you (and why should it be?). I view religions as man-made tools to encourage people into particular modes of organised behaviour, a very powerful effect used repeatedly by the holders of temporal power over the ages. So I ask myself whether the writers of a given passage truly believed the non-physical portions of what they wrote, or whether they wrote them solely for the benefit of others. This is what I refer to as unknowable in this. Certainly, the writer told us in the simplest and most clearly understood terms that faith is the basis for everything else. But I instinctively question whether they truly thought so.

As I say, you're under no obligation to think that line of speculation anything other than idle and ill-founded.

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Quote from: ddickerson on Mar 08, 2017, 07:34AMThe New Testament in John describes where the 'source' of 'ALL' Wisdom comes. This book doesn't exactly spell that out.

This dovetails quite nicely with the fear of the Lord theme in wisdom literature since New Testament Christology and followed by all forms of orthodox Christianity emphasizes that Christ is the Lord incarnate and thus the Wisdom that one "fears" in the Biblical sense.

[ttf_drizabone]

Wisdom 10 text
Wisdom 11 text

Highlights

 - Wisdom guiding Israel throughout history

Summary

Chapter 10
 - examples of Wisdom throughout Israels history
   - Adam, Cain, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Israel escaping from Egypt ...

Chapter 11
 - Wisdom prospered the works of the righteous
 - and caused the works of the unrighteous to harm them and prosper the righteous
 - God is power is overwhelming
 - But he is also merciful because he loves everything because he created everything

Questions and Observations

1) The book is changed from giving wise advice to recounting how wisdom has affected people in Israel's history

2) I wouldn't have used Adam as an example of a wise man given that he is known for the most foolish decision ever.

3) Wisdom is personified here. It seems that some of the things that Wisdom is said to have done were also attributed to God, eg God leading Israel out of Egypt.

4) The idea that God is merciful and forgives the sins of those that repent sounds a lot like the gospel

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 08, 2017, 02:39PM4) The idea that God is merciful and forgives the sins of those that repent sounds a lot like the gospel

Yes, it's an interesting foreshadowing. It shows us that Jesus wasn't thinking his philosophical thoughts in a vacuum (*) - his ideas were ideas that had been bouncing around and gradually solidifying in Jewish thought for quite some while beforehand.

Which makes some sense - it's hard to imagine how a proclaimer of a new religious position could quickly gather followers to a cause that didn't espouse ideas that people were ripe to hear, primed by their own intellectual preparation.

(*) In light of the conversation with John a few posts up, I emphasise that this shows my perspective of Jesus as nothing mystical, a simple human being with an idea. If one believes that he was more, I think one must ask oneself how it came to tie up so neatly that he appeared divinely scheduled with the same thoughts that were just coming to fruition in other Judaic thinkers. Coincidence or plan? (*)

[ttf_MoominDave]

Wisdom 12 text

Highlights

 - Murder is good when God says so

Summary

 - Wrapping up the previous chapter with some brief words
 - The Canaanites were hated by Yahweh, for sacrificing children, and for cannibalism
 - He marked them for destruction to be replaced by the much more moral Israelites
 - He reassured the Israelities that it was okay to ethnically cleanse the Canaanites, because he had commissioned the work and he would mark it at the end
 - Doing this helps show the Israelites to be kind
 - Unrighteous people have gone wrong, led astray by their own inclinations

Questions and Observations

1) There are a lot of little odd apparent misdivisions in the chapters of this book.
2) It occurs to me that the accusations against the Canaanites here are pretty much identical to the infamous "blood libel" that has been used to smear Jews on various occasions over the centuries when racist feeling has been high. And I wonder if in fact there is as little truth in the accusation against the Canaanites as in the later propaganda. It is essentially justifying ethnic warfare, after all; such a morally dirty thing that people whenever it happens resort to telling all kinds of vicious lies about their victims to feel better about their actions.
3) So the national story that is being rehearsed here is that the Israelites suppressed the Canaanites. As we've gone over before, history and archaeology point to the Israelites having likely lived there all along. The Canaanites were the Israelites. Perhaps child sacrifice and cannibalism happened in the land that came to be known as Israel and Judah before they existed as entities - after all, it isn't historically unknown, usually due to religious reasons. Perhaps not. My inclination is to view the changeover as being from one mode of religious worship to another within a localised population; the followers of Moloch became followers of Yahweh, and, insecure in their status and vicious in their zeal, they promptly starting telling horrible stories about the older movement that they were replacing, likely at the point of a sword.
4) It states here that Yahweh knew that the Canaanites would come to a sticky end, due to their evil beginnings. #predestination #notreallyfair
5) It states here that there are no other gods apart from Yahweh. We've covered this topic before. #psalmssayotherwise #newstomolochbaaldagonetal
6) This really is feeling more like a NT than an OT book in some ways, isn't it?
7) I get a little lost on the logic of how slaughtering the Canaanites helped teach the Israelites to be kind... #nothowidhavedoneit
8) The keenness on justifying genocide in this chapter is pretty blood-curdling.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 09, 2017, 03:07AMYes, it's an interesting foreshadowing. It shows us that Jesus wasn't thinking his philosophical thoughts in a vacuum (*) - his ideas were ideas that had been bouncing around and gradually solidifying in Jewish thought for quite some while beforehand.

Which makes some sense - it's hard to imagine how a proclaimer of a new religious position could quickly gather followers to a cause that didn't espouse ideas that people were ripe to hear, primed by their own intellectual preparation.

(*) In light of the conversation with John a few posts up, I emphasise that this shows my perspective of Jesus as nothing mystical, a simple human being with an idea. If one believes that he was more, I think one must ask oneself how it came to tie up so neatly that he appeared divinely scheduled with the same thoughts that were just coming to fruition in other Judaic thinkers. Coincidence or plan? (*)

I agree with you agreeing.  I see Jesus explicitly teaching from the Old Testament but correcting his contemporaries and doing things that were spoken of in the OT as pertaining to the Messiah aka God's Anointed.  Which is probably not what you meant but anyway, that's what I read.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 09, 2017, 03:28AMWisdom 12 text

...

1) There are a lot of little odd apparent misdivisions in the chapters of this book.

there are

Quote2) It occurs to me that the accusations against the Canaanites here are pretty much identical to the infamous "blood libel" that has been used to smear Jews on various occasions over the centuries when racist feeling has been high. And I wonder if in fact there is as little truth in the accusation against the Canaanites as in the later propaganda. It is essentially justifying ethnic warfare, after all; such a morally dirty thing that people whenever it happens resort to telling all kinds of vicious lies about their victims to feel better about their actions.

3) So the national story that is being rehearsed here is that the Israelites suppressed the Canaanites. As we've gone over before, history and archaeology point to the Israelites having likely lived there all along. The Canaanites were the Israelites. Perhaps child sacrifice and cannibalism happened in the land that came to be known as Israel and Judah before they existed as entities - after all, it isn't historically unknown, usually due to religious reasons. Perhaps not. My inclination is to view the changeover as being from one mode of religious worship to another within a localised population; the followers of Moloch became followers of Yahweh, and, insecure in their status and vicious in their zeal, they promptly starting telling horrible stories about the older movement that they were replacing, likely at the point of a sword.

My take is that
- the Canaanites were (accused of) practising this behaviour back in Genesis before Jacob took the Hebrews into Egypt
- the Israelites were warned against practising it (Lev 18)
- they disobeyed God and he let the Canaanites stay in the land and the Israelites adopted their practices
- he warned the Israelites and then punished them when they didn't repent (Jerimiah says that they became like Sodom to God)

So I agree that the Hebrews did live with the Canaanites and practiced child sacrifice etc, but it was despite what the Law and the Prophets said and not in line with them.

Quote4) It states here that Yahweh knew that the Canaanites would come to a sticky end, due to their evil beginnings. #predestination #notreallyfair

This could be foreknowledge rather than forcing them to be bad against there will.

Would foreknowledge be fair?

Would predestination be fair if God didn't make them do it against their will?

Would you think its unfair to punish or stop a paedophile because he claims he was born that way?

And yeah, predestination isn't fair, but then neither is the world.  Some people are born with more intellect or talents than others, some with more opportunity, some with better luck.  so if god created and runs the world you wouldn't expect him to be concerned with "fair".

Quote5) It states here that there are no other gods apart from Yahweh. We've covered this topic before. #psalmssayotherwise #newstomolochbaaldagonetal

v13? this doesn't say that there is no other gods apart from Yahweh, but there are none that care for all the people.

Quote7) I get a little lost on the logic of how slaughtering the Canaanites helped teach the Israelites to be kind... #nothowidhavedoneit
8) The keenness on justifying genocide in this chapter is pretty blood-curdling.

I think that the writer is focussing on the way God acted with forbearance to his people, offering them lots of chances to repent. This is what taught them to be kind.  The Canaanites didn't seem to count. they weren't going to repent so there was no need to forbear.

That sounds logical if you assume God's right to judge, but I understand how you would see it differently from your perspective.

[ttf_drizabone]

Wisdom 13 text

Highlights

 - Nature and idol worship is foolish

Summary

 - Nature worship is foolish
 - Idol worship is foolish

Questions and Observations

1) I don't think there would be any disagreements with these

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 09, 2017, 03:47PMThis could be foreknowledge rather than forcing them to be bad against there will.

Would foreknowledge be fair?

Would predestination be fair if God didn't make them do it against their will?

Would you think its unfair to punish or stop a paedophile because he claims he was born that way?

And yeah, predestination isn't fair, but then neither is the world.  Some people are born with more intellect or talents than others, some with more opportunity, some with better luck.  so if god created and runs the world you wouldn't expect him to be concerned with "fair".
Foreknowledge on the part of an entity that supposedly has the ability to prevent the bad thing happening. Seems at least negligent to just leave it to unfold. And when the entity is responsible for creating the bad thing in the first place, it seems to me that it crosses over from innocent bystander to culpable manslaughter. And it's two different things to move from the kind of unfair that everyone simply accepts as normal variation (so-and-so was born with a stronger brain) to the kind of unfair that nobody likes (born to be viciously punished).

Of course, this theological knot goes away if one takes the line that Yahweh didn't do it. #heathentempting #imgettingintothesehashtags

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 09, 2017, 03:47PMv13? this doesn't say that there is no other gods apart from Yahweh, but there are none that care for all the people.
Ah, I see how you're reading this. It seems an ambiguous sentence to me:
For neither is there any god besides you, whose care is for all people

Is it saying:
a) That there is no god apart from Yahweh, and that Yahweh's care is for all people
or
b) That there is no god that cares for all the people apart from Yahweh
?

The Septuagint version (which I think is the earliest, in Greek) has:
οὔτε γὰρ Θεός ἐστι πλὴν σοῦ, ᾧ μέλει περὶ πάντων, ἵνα δείξῃς ὅτι οὐκ ἀδίκως ἔκρινας

Alas, I speak no Greek, and Google Translate makes a complete butchery of the above. Anyone able to read it?

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 09, 2017, 08:08PMWisdom 13 text

Highlights

 - Nature and idol worship is foolish

Summary

 - Nature worship is foolish
 - Idol worship is foolish

Questions and Observations

1) I don't think there would be any disagreements with these

• [li]If these are foolish, why isn't Yahweh-worship foolish?[/li][li]Modern pagans are into nature worship. Are they foolish?[/li]

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 10, 2017, 04:00AM

• [li]If these are foolish, why isn't Yahweh-worship foolish?[/li][li]Modern pagans are into nature worship. Are they foolish?[/li]

You have to ask 'are Pagans foolish?'. LOL! At least you acknowledge that all the tree huggers are Pagans. 

[ttf_MoominDave]

If I am to consider pagans foolish, logically I must consider Christians foolish too. And at least those that worship natural objects are directing their worship at something that demonstrably exists - that seems marginally more sensible than directing it at an unknowable object. After all, they both go in for this nonsensical concept of 'worship'. I don't consider pagans innately foolish people any more than I consider Christians innately foolish people. There are plenty of Christians whose reasoning abilities I respect immensely.

Perhaps I should have used a capital 'P'. In using the word 'pagan', I meant those that go in for Wicca and suchlike. A precise category of people, not the broad brush 'not us, but into something else' usage that Christianity tends to go for.

[ttf_ddickerson]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 10, 2017, 09:46AMIf I am to consider pagans foolish, logically I must consider Christians foolish too. And at least those that worship natural objects are directing their worship at something that demonstrably exists - that seems marginally more sensible than directing it at an unknowable object. After all, they both go in for this nonsensical concept of 'worship'. I don't consider pagans innately foolish people any more than I consider Christians innately foolish people. There are plenty of Christians whose reasoning abilities I respect immensely.

Perhaps I should have used a capital 'P'. In using the word 'pagan', I meant those that go in for Wicca and suchlike. A precise category of people, not the broad brush 'not us, but into something else' usage that Christianity tends to go for.

Well, the 10 Commandments do have a clause that says that we shouldn't have other Gods or Idols, or worship 'things'.

So, it's up to you if you consider trees, or mother nature worthy of your worship. I understand to an unbeliever, it is hard to decode all this. That's why we don't have to get all tangled up in these details. I don't go around classifying one person foolish because of his beliefs anymore than you do. From what I can tell.

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 10, 2017, 09:46AMIf I am to consider pagans foolish, logically I must consider Christians foolish too. And at least those that worship natural objects are directing their worship at something that demonstrably exists - that seems marginally more sensible than directing it at an unknowable object. After all, they both go in for this nonsensical concept of 'worship'. I don't consider pagans innately foolish people any more than I consider Christians innately foolish people. There are plenty of Christians whose reasoning abilities I respect immensely.

The argument assumes that there is a god and goes that if you're going to pick a god to worship then picking a created thing is foolish because its the creator that is the real god.  Christians and Jews are not foolish (using that assumption) because they are worshiping the creator.

So I think you would disagree with the assumption rather than the logic.  Am I wrong or just being too pedantic.

[ttf_MoominDave]

No, your logic seems fair on its own terms, but they are of course Christianity's own terms. In the spirit of the slightly snarky atheist that I seem to be channelling in this thread this week (every week, you might say...), I'd point out that anything at all can seem logical and reasonable if you make assumptions designed to make it seem logical and reasonable. One could pick other terms - one could define your god as putting an intangible part of their presence in particular trees. Or indeed idols. Or one could believe there are no gods, and choose instead to be reverently in awe of the beauty of nature (something that actually sounds like a nice idea to me, though undoubtedly it would harden into weird rituals and mysticism in time). Then ignoring that thing when worshipping becomes logically the foolish action.

Basically, the Wisdom writer is saying "We believe this, not this. If you play along with us, you must do it this way". But there are many other equally valid constructs to work within that people have followed over the years, and calling followers of those "foolish" is to invite a charge of insularity. Some implied hubris - 'but it's okay because our one is right'. Not from where I'm standing. Of course they seem foolish to those on board with you - you've got the answer to life, the universe, and everything, and they, poor saps, have deluded themselves into thinking that their different answer is correct... But saying so invites the rest of us (religionists of further persuasions, and non-religionists) to think that you too are foolish. To us their answer is just as valid as yours.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Wisdom 14 text

Highlights

 - Idol worshippers are naughty and WRONG

Summary

 - The navigator of a ship offers prayer to an idol
 - But the writer thinks that their god is really what is protecting them, so the navigator is foolish
 - Idols are abominations, creations of humanity, unlike their god (umm...)
 - Idols occurred because people respect craftsmanship in making them
 - Those that follow them indulge in murder, theft, and sexual disorders

Questions and Observations

1) This is getting a bit 'tracty'. We're right, you're wrong! And the ways in which we're going to try to pin wrong on you are entertainingly lurid, all the better for our spiritual voyeuristic pleasure. Never mind that our holy book tells us that some of the most respected of our figures engaged in the same things.

[ttf_drizabone]

I understand that different assumptions will lead to different valid conclusions and invalid conclusions.  Presuppositions do too.

In this case the writer is arguing that given the assumption of a creator god then your foolish to worship created things.

This is one of Paul's arguments in Romans so its interesting to see that what he was writing wasn't alien to pre-christian Hebrew writings.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Wisdom 15 text
Wisdom 16 text

Highlights

 - Art is bad
 - Yahweh is inventive and choosy

Summary

Chapter 15
 - Fortunately, the writer's god is a fine fellow, and they reside secure in his trust
 - Art is bad; its sophistication misleads people
 - Potters should stick to making plates, not statues
 - People get the wrong end of the religious stick when statues happen
 - The writer is not happy that some people worship "most hateful" animals (the heading specifies snakes)

Chapter 16
 - These people were destroyed by these animals
 - Yahweh offered the Israelites tasty quails instead
 - And when they were naughty destroyed them a bit by the destroying animals
 - But only a bit, because they were his people, after all
 - Yahweh once ravaged Egypt with storms
 - Contrast this with "manna from heaven"

Questions and Observations

1) There is a strain of something later seen here, for examples in the brands of Islam that only endorse non-representational art - the fear that realistic artistic figures can inspire devotion.
2) It's interesting that Christianity does not go in for the same thoughts these days. Even the Catholic church, for whom this is doctrine, have no fear at all of art. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 11, 2017, 02:37AMI understand that different assumptions will lead to different valid conclusions and invalid conclusions.  Presuppositions do too.

In this case the writer is arguing that given the assumption of a creator god then your foolish to worship created things.

This is one of Paul's arguments in Romans so its interesting to see that what he was writing wasn't alien to pre-christian Hebrew writings.



The later Christian theology worked with these same themes.  For example, the influential theologian Augustine worked with the idea of our love basically being out of wack.  Starting with  Jesus' summary of the the law as love to God and our neighbor, arguing from the order of the 10 Commandments, he stated that love to God was primary with love to neighbor flowing from that.  However, the human race has become turned in itself to love the created thing rather than the creator.  The primary created thing humans chose to love is themselves with a perverted version of self love rather than love of God first and other humans (neighbor) 2nd.  Thus the lines of thinking found in this text and as Martin has pointed out are developed more fully in Romans 1 are key themes in the Biblical text that are developed in the history of Christian theology.

[ttf_drizabone]

Wisdom 17 text
Wisdom 18 text

Highlights

 - night and dark: punishment and freedom

Summary

 - the Egyptians are punished during the night in complete darkness
 - while light shines on the "holy ones" who were rescued
 - they had decided to kill the first born of the Isrealites: they were punished by the loss of theirs.
 - death almost came to the righteous in the desert but they were saved by the actions of a blameless man  who appealed to the promises given to their ancestors.

Questions and Observations

1) the writer uses interesting contrasts between light and dark, and tells how the punishment of the Egyptians fit their crime.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Wisdom 19 text

Highlights

 - Yahweh is omni. Just omni.

Summary

 - The Egyptians took time out from their misery to pursue the Israelites
 - And this doomed them, at the hand of Yahweh
 - The Israelites that saw all of these and the previous things offered worship to Yahweh readily
 - The Egyptians deserved this (the writer says), and also so did some who abused guests, being struck blind
 - Yahweh's power can make anything do anything
 - Yahweh has always "exalted and glorified his people"

Questions and Observations

1) Well, this is pretty explicit - Yahweh is thought to know all that is to come, and to be able to make anything happen at all. We've been over (and over) before how odd it is that he supposedly takes such a close interest in human affairs, but then doesn't arrange them to leave out evilness.
2) John's comment above, made within the context of Christian theology, if extracted from that context, is interesting: "However, the human race has become turned in itself to love the created thing rather than the creator." Outside the restricted field of Christianity, this seems an exact inversion of the truth - the created thing is Christianity, and the creator is humanity.
3) Well, that concludes Wisdom. It didn't seem the most wisdom-laden book we've read so far to me, though others may beg to differ. More in the line of a tract - a rather polemical piece of text designed to rally the troops.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMPart I - The Tetrateuch
Genesis

• [li]Big picture stuff
  • [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
  [/li][li]Abraham; extensive travels, original covenant, Lot, not sacrificing Isaac[/li][li]Jacob; conflict with twin Esau, banishment, wives, 12 sons[/li][li]Joseph; betrayal to Egypt, rise, saving of family, supposed origins of 12 tribes[/li]

Exodus

• [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]

Leviticus

• [li]...many laws are given[/li]

Numbers

• [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 16, 2016, 04:49AMPart II - The Deuteronomistic History
Deuteronomy

• [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]

Joshua

• [li]Conquest of Canaan under Joshua[/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes, East and West banks of the Jordan[/li]

Judges

• [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest, compare with previous book[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson[/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North and the Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]

Ruth

• [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times in the era of the Judges[/li]

1 Samuel

• [li]Samuel is a priestly leader in a time of Philistine conflicts who needs a worthy successor[/li][li]Saul is appointed to the new role of king and with his son Jonathan defeats the Ammonites, Philistines, Amalekites, but he falls out with Samuel, who anoints David as a replacement king secretly[/li][li]David (a military hero) and Saul vie for superiority over a long period, eventually brought to an end when the Philistines kill Saul in battle[/li]

2 Samuel

• [li]The kingdom nearly splits, but David unites it, doing many heroic deeds[/li][li]But in time he becomes morally suspect and manipulated by schemers[/li]

1 Kings

• [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally but gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom, building the "first temple" and a palace; however, like David he becomes morally suspect in time[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Kings succeed in both Israel and Judah; Elijah gains prominence as a prophet[/li]

2 Kings

• [li]Long successions of kings of both Israel and Judah are described, and the prophet Elisha comes to prominence[/li][li]Most kings do not prioritise Yahweh-worship - none in Israel, but some in Judah.
  [/li][li]First Israel then Judah are unable to tread the difficult path of negotiation between stronger powers on either side, with both populations destroyed and exiled by 586 BC[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Oct 28, 2016, 07:11AMPart III - The Chronicler's History
1 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of genealogy to the beginning; return of some exiles to Judah[/li][li]Recap of Samuel written to favour David more highly[/li]

2 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of Kings with only the Judah parts and a focus on relations with Yahweh[/li][li]End of exile when Babylon falls[/li]

Ezra

• [li]Cyrus of Persia commands Judah to return home and rebuild their temple; decades later Artaxerxes of Persia commands Ezra to lead a second wave of returnees[/li]

Nehemiah

• [li]Nehemiah, a Judahite official of Artaxerxes of Persia, is appointed governor of Judah, rebuilding Jerusalem's wall; he and Ezra organise Judah, mixing enlightened social reform with brutally dogmatic interpretations of Mosaic law[/li]

Tobit Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]Tobit and his son Tobias are exiled in Nineveh when Israel falls, while Sarah lives in Media; a demon has killed seven of her husbands. With an angel's help, Tobias rescues her, and everyone lives happily ever after[/li]

Judith Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]Nebuchadnezzar is enraged by the Israelites' failure to answer a military summons, and despatches his general Holofernes with his army to suppress them; Judith, a beautiful Israelite widow, uses feminine wiles to distract Holofernes, killing him[/li]

Esther

• [li]Jewish exile in Susa Esther wins a beauty contest to become queen of Persia; factions vie to destroy the Jews in Persia, but the influence of her and her uncle Mordecai carries the day[/li]

1 Maccabees Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]In the 160s BC the Greek rulers attempt a religious crackdown in Judaea, against which Judas Maccabeus leads a rebellion[/li][li]Various competing empires trade blows, and all the while the rebellion becomes more secure; Jonathan Apphus and then Simon Thassi succeed Judas and establish a medium-term peace, along with Simon's dynasty, the Hasmonaeans[/li]

2 Maccabees  Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]Prior to the Maccabean revolt, unedifying political struggles within the priesthood result in turmoil, resulting in the crackdown of 1 Maccabees; Judas leads the first portion of his revolt, in less detail this time[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 05, 2017, 04:47AMPart IV - Wisdom Literature
Job

• [li]Job is a wealthy and good man, devoted to Yahweh[/li][li]Satan talks Yahweh into letting him test Job's faith, which he does by destroying his fortune, family, and health[/li][li]Job and his friends talk it over at length; Job is convinced of his innocence, his friends of his guilt[/li][li]Yahweh eventually turns up and ticks them all off for not respecting him enough; he restores Job's fortunes twice over[/li]

Psalms

• [li]Large collection of devotional songs/poems, whose themes include
  • [li]Overarching powerfulness of Yahweh[/li][li]Need to praise and thank Yahweh[/li][li]How bad it feels when Yahweh feels absent, and how good it feels when he feels present[/li]
  [/li]

Prayer of Manasseh Orthodox

• [li]An extra psalm[/li]

Proverbs

• [li]Large collection of wise sayings, many attributed to King Solomon. Major themes include:
  • [li]Industriousness, Humility, Fair dealing, Marital faithfulness, Religious devotion, Political savvy[/li]
  [/li]

Ecclesiastes

• [li]A harshly pragmatic sermon, attributed to Solomon, with the moral: All that one achieves will perish; the only true joy is to be taken in doing the tasks in front of you[/li]

Song of Solomon

• [li]A borderline erotic exaltation of the joys of love, possibly between Solomon and his bride, possibly between his bride and her lover[/li]

Wisdom  Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]The point of wisdom is to achieve salvation through Yahweh; those that reject this are accursed[/li]

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 1 text

Highlights

 - Prologue: This is the wisdom of a man named Jesus

Summary

 - Prologue
  - There are many great books of Jewish thought
  - But those who read them must not only understand the books, but must also acquire wisdom
  - The writer's grandfather, name of Jesus, a notable scholar, wrote the following work, a compendium of his wisdom
  - The author has translated it from Hebrew, and apologises for any inaccuracies created in the translation
  - They recommend reading in the original Hebrew, as translations of other texts are also imperfect
  - They undertook this translation project when they came to Egypt in the "38th year of Euergetes"

 - Wisdom existed before all, created by Yahweh
 - To fear Yahweh is a joyful thing, a sufficient condition for happiness
 - To fear Yahweh is to approach wisdom
 - Measure your words carefully, and resist the urge to anger
 - Live according to these religious precepts, and wisdom will come to you
 - Don't lose your fear of Yahweh
 - Don't be a hypocrite
 - Don't pride yourself

Questions and Observations

1) So here's something pretty much unique so far - a reliable-sounding attestation of the name of the author. The closest we've otherwise come to this was the prologue to 2 Maccabees, which described it as an abridgement of the work of Jason of Cyrene, but didn't tell us who'd done the abridging.
2) The translator, the author's grandson came to Egypt in the 38th year of Euergetes, at some point after which he began the translation. There were two Ptolemaic pharoahs with this name, but only one of them reigned long enough to be a candidate for this: Ptolemy VIII Euergetes II a.k.a. Ptolemy VIII Physcon, who ascended the throne in 170 BC. Thus the translator arrived in Egypt c.133 BC. From this we might stick a finger up into the wind, and hazard an informed guess that the author Jesus was born in the late 200s BC, making the work perhaps a product of the years soon before the Maccabean uprising in Judah (160s BC onwards); or perhaps a product of those years?
3) Although it isn't given in this chapter, some more is known about the author, whose family name was Ben Sira, hence "Sirach" for the book title.
4) The opening lines of the actual text (after the prologue) rather controversially plump for one particular side in a philosophical debate which no-one has yet found a convincing resolution for. The debate is often framed regarding abstract mathematics, which is where I first encountered it, with the question being: Do we discover or invent mathematics? Substituting wisdom, this is exactly the question that is begged here. The author is very clear that "wisdom" is out there waiting to be discovered, but I am much less clear that the answer is so clear.
5) The final verse is the thing that I was referring to a few chapters ago when I questioned whether Wisdom's glorifying of righteous souls crowing over unrighteous ones was quite Christian. It is striking to find such a straight condemnation of prideful behaviour so soon afterwards.
6) A personal milestone - this is my 400th chapter summary in this thread... Gosh...

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 12, 2017, 01:55AM
1) Well, this is pretty explicit - Yahweh is thought to know all that is to come, and to be able to make anything happen at all. We've been over (and over) before how odd it is that he supposedly takes such a close interest in human affairs, but then doesn't arrange them to leave out evilness.

but how would we learn about consequences?

Quote2) John's comment above, made within the context of Christian theology, if extracted from that context, is interesting: "However, the human race has become turned in itself to love the created thing rather than the creator." Outside the restricted field of Christianity, this seems an exact inversion of the truth - the created thing is Christianity, and the creator is humanity.

your preconceptions are showing again

Quote3) Well, that concludes Wisdom. It didn't seem the most wisdom-laden book we've read so far to me, though others may beg to differ. More in the line of a tract - a rather polemical piece of text designed to rally the troops.

I'm not surprised that it seems to have been written to "rally the troops" given the circumstances it was thought to have been written in.

What I found most interesting was to find thoughts similar to those expressed by Jesus and Paul, indicating that their ideas were developing in Judaism prior to christianity.
I thought the early

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 12, 2017, 09:09PM
your preconceptions are showing again


To modify and adapt a line from a classic movie-- Oh them preconceptions, Oh them devil preconceptions.