TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible

[ttf_Baron von Bone]

Quote from: John the Theologian on Mar 27, 2017, 12:08PMThought some of you might be interested in these lectures on the historical and geographical accuracy of the canonical gospels.

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/justintaylor/2017/03/27/simon-gathercole-on-the-reliability-of-new-testament-geography/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+between2worlds+%28Between+Two+Worlds%29
That's a big selling point--it's one of the things Tom Clancy fans like so much about his stuff too.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 28, 2017, 07:48PMSirach 26 text
2) Do you think that Sirach's sentiments on wives are the same as those expressed in Proverbs or worse?
The two books don't have exactly the same attitude to women in general and wives in specific, though they are identifiably from the same tradition. Here's the list of references in both Proverbs and Sirach to the word "wife".

The attitude of Proverbs can be summarised by:
 - Enjoy your wife
 - Don't seduce the wives of others
 - Quarrelling with your wife is bad for you
 - Be grateful if you are happy with your wife

All these are couched in terms of the attributes of the wife, not as I have above in terms of joint responsibilities.

The attitude of Sirach I'd summarise as:
 - Value and trust your wife
 - Don't tempt yourself with the wives of others
 - Quarrelling with your wife is bad for you
 - Be grateful if you are happy with your wife
 - A wife that is over-talky, drunken, haughty, self-willed is a sadness

There is much commonality between the thoughts of the two books on the subject. Sirach writes more about it, and is in some ways more nuanced, but is stuck completely in the view of wife as property and second-class citizen that is so inapplicable to modern life. This is the kind of thing that can turn people right off Christianity - there are too many people who read bits like this, then take them as an instruction to oppress women.

The sense I am left with is that both authors were thoughtful and reflective men of a traditionalist bent who happened to live in a society where women's rights had never been conceived of. And that conceiving of them (it isn't a particularly difficult concept...) was not something that they were inclined to be interested in doing. I suspect that if either had been asked, they would have underlined their respect for women, but argued that they had more pressing ideas to propagate.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 28, 2017, 07:48PM3) The chapter breaks consistently have the last few verses of a chapter related to the first paragraph of the next.  It happens so often that it seems to be deliberate but I can't think why it would be done.  any ideas?

I'm baffled too. It isn't to get a consistent number of verses in a chapter, as they vary chapter to chapter.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 27 text

Highlights

 - General precepts

Summary

 - Mind the moral hazards of getting rich
 - A person's speech tells you what they are like
 - What goes around comes around
 - Put yourself more amongst wise people than fools
 - Betraying secrets damages your reputation
 - Beware those that say different things to different people
 - The proud offer abuse
 - Do not be angry

Questions and Observations

1) One can be deceived by skilled speech easily enough. Ben Sira seems to overlook this possibility.
2) Quite an eclectic chapter, this one.
3) Looking forward from this unexpectedly meaty book, I see that there aren't many other books of equivalent length to be found in the whole rest of the bible. Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel are of similar lengths, but the rest of the OT apart from those consists of little nibbles, while the longest books of the NT do not exceed 30 chapters.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 28 text

Highlights

 - Treat others with generosity of spirit

Summary

 - Be merciful; Yahweh's judgement will pay you back handsomely in time
 - Be slow to anger
 - Malicious words are very dangerous; guard your tongue

Questions and Observations

1) Wise words for all of us. Barring the bit about being nice because of Yahweh's stick - but us non-believers can substitute "What goes around comes around" to reclaim useful meaning.
2) Another thread milestone... Byron's post three above was the 2000th.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 29 text

Highlights

 - Precepts on indebtedness

Summary

 - It is merciful to lend money freely to friends
 - There are those that will abuse the trust, breaking friendships
 - And there are those that will struggle to repay in all good faith
 - But it is still on balance definitely good to be merciful in this way
 - It is hazardous to be a guarantor for a debt, though needed sometimes - pick your commitments wisely
 - Be happy if you have what a life truly needs - water, food, clothes, your own accommodation
 - A good guest is content with what is offered

Questions and Observations

1) Owning one's own house lifts the spirits, but it was perhaps easier to do so in this society than in ours. Certainly less constrained in terms of where one might have it, building from scratch etc. I don't remember reading about town planners in this literature yet...

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 30 text

Highlights

 - Children, health, general attitude

Summary

 - Invest your knowledge in your children, but regularly physically discipline them
 - Do not spoil your child; be a parent to them, not a friend
 - Good health is vital; poor health a true misery
 - Be joyful

Questions and Observations

1) Again, the same child-rearing advice that doesn't fit with modern ways of doing things.

[ttf_drizabone]

Sirach 31 text

Highlights

 - riches, table manners and drinking

Summary

 - don't worry too much about riches
 - but its better to be rich than poor
 - loving gold doesn't make you righteous so its better to be rich and righteous
 - be refined at the table, be moderate, don't be a glutton
 - be temperate in drinking wine

Questions and Observations

1) table manners!  those are really important.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 31, 2017, 07:29PMSirach 31 text
Corrected link.

Quote from: drizabone on Mar 31, 2017, 07:29PM1) table manners!  those are really important.

Thinks... We live in a society of hugely distributed agriculture where the numbers of people with direct exposure to food shortage conditions are vanishingly small. All I can think of are refugees and some who lived through WW2. The horror of your days-empty stomach banging against your shrinking ribcage with no prospect of easing it in view... We've essentially forgotten what that's like. These people lived in a place and time where they were much more susceptible to a bad crop or a dry season. They would have through their lives oscillated between times of plenty and times of little. In such conditions, I can well imagine that treating your food with respect becomes a big deal.

That said, insights on good eating etiquette are a definite step down in profundity from what's gone before.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 32 text

Highlights

 - Banquet etiquette
 - General approach to doing deeds

Summary

 - If you have a role to play at a feast, play it with humility
 - Pick your battles
 - Act thoughtfully, but with resolve

Questions and Observations

1) As so often in this book, we move from one topic to another in a kind of free association of ideas that takes us rapidly between widely differing pieces of advice.
2) Another milestone... 800 chapters done.

[ttf_drizabone]

Sirach 33 text

Highlights

 - be good, value your independence, and keep your slaves working.

Summary

 - no evil will befall those who fear the Lord but watch out if you don't
 - be wise with what you say
 - Days are all alike but people have different abilities and behaviours
 - Listen to my words, for they are wise
 - Do you're best to succeed
 - Give your slaves work and food so that he doesn't become idle
 - If you only have one slave look after him

Questions and Observations

1) Abel and other would disagree with the first paragraph
2) v7-19 seem significant and I think I have missed the meaning here.
3) the advice for the treatment of slaves would be frowned on today

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 02, 2017, 10:01PMSirach 33 text

1) Abel and other would disagree with the first paragraph
Indeed! Job is perhaps the most egregious example.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 02, 2017, 10:01PM2) v7-19 seem significant and I think I have missed the meaning here.
This particular author doesn't tend to go in for obscurity and cryptic references. He wants the reader to understand him immediately. With this in mind, it seems to me that the impression taken away on first reading is likely to be the correct one. I'll go through these verses with my responses (in red):

7
Why is one day more important than another,
    when all the daylight in the year is from the sun?
8
By the Lord’s wisdom they were distinguished,
    and he appointed the different seasons and festivals.
9
Some days he exalted and hallowed,
    and some he made ordinary days.

Time has no sense of itself, no consciousness. It required the interpretation of conscious beings to lay a structure upon time.

10
All human beings come from the ground,
    and humankind[a] was created out of the dust.
11
In the fullness of his knowledge the Lord distinguished them
    and appointed their different ways.
12
Some he blessed and exalted,
    and some he made holy and brought near to himself;
but some he cursed and brought low,
    and turned them out of their place.
13
Like clay in the hand of the potter,
    to be molded as he pleases,
so all are in the hand of their Maker,
    to be given whatever he decides.

Humans are more complex. They are readiliy distinguished one from another in all sorts of dependable ways, unlike the natural processes of one day from those of the next.

14
Good is the opposite of evil,
    and life the opposite of death;
    so the sinner is the opposite of the godly.
15
Look at all the works of the Most High;
    they come in pairs, one the opposite of the other.

Ben Sira has a theory. He notes that if something has an attribute, then other similar-looking things can typically have a contrasting attribute. This is in a way definitional - if humans have noticed something being some way, it is because they have compared it with something that is different. Rocks are hard; water is soft. But he oversimplifies in the name of rhetoric - things do not come exclusively in opposite poles; fudge is moderately soft. Humans do not divide neatly into 'good' and 'evil' piles.

It suits him to draw a sharp dividing line between those who do and don't subscribe to his religion (and which side of that line would Christians have been on to him, I wonder?), but similarly this is rhetorical artifice. And perhaps he doesn't quite mean it, as it seems to me that the short series of comparisons drawn he cannot mean entirely as they are presented, due to their oversimplicity.

16
Now I was the last to keep vigil;
    I was like a gleaner following the grape-pickers;
17
by the blessing of the Lord I arrived first,
    and like a grape-picker I filled my wine press.
18
Consider that I have not labored for myself alone,
    but for all who seek instruction.
19
Hear me, you who are great among the people,
    and you leaders of the congregation, pay heed!

Some puffery here, though nothing particularly objectionable. He's in his own opinion gathered wisdom in all places he might look, and it's worth listening to. To be fair to him, it's a good collection.

Did we get the same stuff out of this passage?

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 02, 2017, 10:01PM3) the advice for the treatment of slaves would be frowned on today

It seems to my eyes that Ben Sira was above all a pragmatist. He was very interested in helping the people around him live constructive and fruitful lives, but had no interest in prescribing social justice. He writes of how to treat slaves because the people around him included slaves and their owners. Although in some chapters we read of his personal reactions, in this one we simply see recipes for a happy owner-slave relationship as existed in his society.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 34 text

Highlights

 - Rationally dismiss fanciful notions of foreseeing
 - But do hold on to Yahweh

Summary

 - Dreams are the product of the mind's fantasy; don't make anything of them
 - Divinations and omens ditto
 - Education and travel both broaden the mind
 - If you believe in Yahweh, you may act with confidence
 - Yahweh will know if an offering is ill-gotten, and its scent will not please his nostrils

Questions and Observations

1) Ben Sira's approach to dreams is surprisingly modern in its hard-headed rationality, and I commend him for it. They are not meaningless, but they are simply clearing the mind of the clutter of the day, and significant things fly past stuck together in the most peculiar ways. Far safer just to disregard them than to get bound up in interpreting them. This little passage is a pleasant surprise, particularly when elsewhere in the Bible the interpretation of dreams is held up as crucial (e.g. Moses and Pharaoh).
2) And also divinations and omens, popular pastimes amongst this society, we are told (and much more recently too). It is refreshing to see this dismissed not as is often seen in some strains of Christianity, where they warn mystically against evil influences, but rather in near-scientific terms - the projection of the subconscious mind seeing patterns where none exist. Ben Sira, you are on form here.
3) He's bang on with his next idea too - seeking learning will make you a rounder person, while travelling will do the same in a contrasting fashion. See other peoples with other ideas of doing things, have one's eyes opened. Far too many people turn themselves inwards in their adulthood - they create a life pattern that works, then bed in for the long duration. They decide (not usually consciously) that they have done all the learning that they need to do. This is a fatal mistake of the mind to make.
4) I have minorly secularly tinkered with the next moral. Ben Sira is ostensibly saying "Yahweh will back you up", but the more meaningful moral to me is that he is also saying "Believing that he will back you up will lead you to act in better ways". This to me is the purpose of religion - giving people an injection of self-belief dependent on the central authority of the religion.
5) There is a contrast of rationality in the first and second halves of this chapter. Firstly - be rational in throwing out dream interpretation, divination, and omens. Secondly - be irrational in believing in Yahweh. I think that here we start to see the conclusion of the move that Yahweh made as a concept from concrete to abstract - compare how he is described as talking to the early figures of these books with how he is completely unavailable to precise communication now. To me, this portrays a religious movement maturing - the recognition of physical impossibilities gradually pushing the concept of the deity into the only place it can logically exist - beyond the realm of human comprehension, safe from attack by those that like to probe their thoughts into logical holes.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 35 text

Highlights

 - Ethics of offerings
 - What Yahweh does

Summary

 - The Law requires many offerings
 - Missing some is not a problem if the reason for missing them is your generosity to others
 - But do be generous with your offerings to Yahweh nevertheless
 - Do not attempt to bribe Yahweh
 - Yahweh's judgements see all and are reliable

Questions and Observations

1) Did I quite pull out the correct meaning of the start of the chapter? I can't quite tell if the meaning is "Being nice to others will cut you some offerings slack", or "You need to do all of this stuff, but you can get extra credit".

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 36 text

Highlights

 - A prayer
 - A good wife is a good idea

Summary

 - "Please Yahweh, work on our behalf, and show us that you are doing so"
 - Intelligence detects lies
 - Women aren't choosy about men, but men are about women
 - A good wife makes a good man, but a man without a wife is not trusted

Questions and Observations

1) This prayer segment is unusual in Sirach thus far, feeling more devotional than anything else.
2) Although intelligence is certainly very useful in detecting lies, sufficiently skilled liars can deceive anybody.
3) Once more, Ben Sira's knowledge of women seems quite lacking. So, "a woman will accept any man as a husband", eh? I don't even believe that that can have held in his strongly patriarchal society. How about Judith, for example?
4) Made explicit here, unusually - women were regarded as possessions.
5) This is only the most recent of several occasions on which he's belaboured the importance of marrying carefully. Sensible advice, even if ideas of gender roles have changed enormously since he wrote.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 37 text

Highlights

 - Be aware of the extent to which good things persist or not

Summary

 - Friendship is not always as constant as one might like - there are those that look strong in friendship but actually prove to be weak, and there are those that are the opposite; for yourself, be constant to others
 - Filter advice through what you know of the advisor's interests
 - Choose those whom you seek advice from carefully and appropriately, and do include Yahweh
 - Wisdom in a person may be uneven - they may be able to help others while not helping themselves
 - Be moderate in what you do; extremeness is not good for body or mind

Questions and Observations

1) Is my 'Highlights' summary a fair representation of the central idea of the chapter all together?

[ttf_drizabone]

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 03, 2017, 02:19AMSirach 34 text

...

1) Ben Sira's approach to dreams is surprisingly modern in its hard-headed rationality, and I commend him for it. They are not meaningless, but they are simply clearing the mind of the clutter of the day, and significant things fly past stuck together in the most peculiar ways. Far safer just to disregard them than to get bound up in interpreting them. This little passage is a pleasant surprise, particularly when elsewhere in the Bible the interpretation of dreams is held up as crucial (e.g. Moses and Pharaoh).
2) And also divinations and omens, popular pastimes amongst this society, we are told (and much more recently too). It is refreshing to see this dismissed not as is often seen in some strains of Christianity, where they warn mystically against evil influences, but rather in near-scientific terms - the projection of the subconscious mind seeing patterns where none exist. Ben Sira, you are on form here.

Significant to me is the caveat in v6 "Unless they are sent by intervention from the Most High, pay no attention to them."  To you that means ignore all dreams, however Christians are supposed to discern which are from God and which aren't.  I'd expect that Sirach wouldn't have written this unless he thought that many get it wrong.
 
Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 05, 2017, 04:33AMSirach 35 text

...

1) Did I quite pull out the correct meaning of the start of the chapter? I can't quite tell if the meaning is "Being nice to others will cut you some offerings slack", or "You need to do all of this stuff, but you can get extra credit".

He's not clear is he.  Either seems possible, the first option seems stronger at the beginning of the section and the second at the end.

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 05, 2017, 04:42AMSirach 36 text

...

3) Once more, Ben Sira's knowledge of women seems quite lacking. So, "a woman will accept any man as a husband", eh? I don't even believe that that can have held in his strongly patriarchal society. How about Judith, for example?

I'd guess that in his society women were dependent on having a husband so couldn't afford to be choosy.

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 05, 2017, 04:48AMSirach 37 text

Highlights

 - Be aware of the extent to which good things persist or not

...

Questions and Observations

1) Is my 'Highlights' summary a fair representation of the central idea of the chapter all together?

I don't think the last section fits with the rest so don't think it fits with its central idea.  So if you exclude that secion (on moderation and its effect on health) I think that the rest of the chapter is about discerning good from bad: advice, friends and wisdom

[ttf_drizabone]

Wisdom 38 text

Highlights

 - respecting doctors, mourning and tradesmen

Summary

 - honour doctors and chemists because they have been given by God and they take away pain
 - when you are sick, pray to God for healing and then go to a doctor so that he can do it.
 - pray that God will grant the doctor success

 - if someone close to you dies then mourn for them for a few days but don't give your heart to grief, it doesn't do anyone any good

 - a master craftsman is dilligent in his craft
 - developing wisdom requires leisure time when you don't have to work
 - so cities depend on tradesmen but they are not found as rulers

Questions and Observations

1) God heals through doctors and chemists because he provides them. Or God doesn't really do anything because he's just imaginary.  Its all depends on your frame of reference doesn't it.

2) Despite my advice to Dave in the previous chapter I've summarised the decided that the theme of this chapter is about the proper respect of things: medical workers, mourning  and tradesmen.

[ttf_drizabone]

Sirach 39 text

Highlights

 - respecting scribes and praising God

Summary

 - scribes seek out wisdom and serve the great
 - their dilligence is in seeking wisdom

 - Now praise God
 - All his works are very good: whatever he says is done
 - His blessings, his vengeance, his wrath: all ar shown to be good in their time

Questions and Observations

1) more on respect, this time for scribes.  I think that the section of Praising God could even be classified as respecting God, so it fits in the theme of the last couple of chapters.

[ttf_drizabone]

Sirach 41 text

Highlights

 - advice on death, the wicked and your reputation

Summary

 - Death:
   - feared by those who value possesions and have them
   - welcomed by the needy
   - its part of life so get used to it.
 - The wicked
   - have bad and unlucky children
   - are cursed in death
 - your reputation will be remembered in death: look after it.
   - be good or at least hide your folly

Questions and Observations

1) To Ben Sirach, death is a place of destruction and "no questions" rather than one of eternal punishment or reward

[ttf_drizabone]

Sirach 42 text

Highlights

 - Ben Sirach shows how sexist he is.

Summary

 - Be ashamed when you do wrong things and don't be ashamed when you do the right things: then you will be approved by all
 - Dad's worry about their daughters: so keep a close watch on her
 - men's wickedness is better than a woman's goodness
 - God's works show his glory, wisdom and order

Questions and Observations

1) Ben Sirach's comparison of the value of men and women's behaviour is ridiculously biased.  I can't think of anything in the bible that would support it.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 08, 2017, 03:06PMSirach 38 text
Link fixed (was given as "Wisdom 38" above).

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 08, 2017, 03:06PM - respecting doctors, mourning and tradesmen

I like Ben Sira's take on the ordering of society. He gives full respect to those that do hard and unglamorous jobs, while explaining why such people do not tend to come to rule or advise.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 08, 2017, 03:14PMSirach 39 text
Link fixed (was given as "Wisdom 40" above).

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 08, 2017, 03:14PM - respecting scribes and praising God

This theme of respect is a pleasant one. He is laying out the ways in which different groups of people toil to make things better.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 09, 2017, 08:19PMSirach 41 text
Due to the confusion of links above, we've missed out Sirach 40. I'll do it after this post.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 09, 2017, 08:19PM1) To Ben Sirach, death is a place of destruction and "no questions" rather than one of eternal punishment or reward

Yes, this is interesting. The Christian "Hell" seems not in theological place yet.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 10, 2017, 04:23PMSirach 42 text
1) Ben Sirach's comparison of the value of men and women's behaviour is ridiculously biased.  I can't think of anything in the bible that would support it.

We're definitely seeing some personal views on the subject here. What we've read elsewhere in this collection of books is not radically different though. Those kooks that run websites advising adopting "Biblical gender roles" where the wife submits to her husband in all things (including corporal punishment) aren't running on fresh air. Christianity does need to own the fact that these bad attitudes are found in its holy book - it can't just handwavingly say "Oh, we don't take those bits seriously", because there are Christians out there that make a point of taking these bits seriously on the basis that this is the official sanction.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 40 text

Highlights

 - Life is hard, but faith helps and wisdom is good

Summary

 - Life is filled with toil, worries, and confusion
 - Having faith lets you buy into an eternal scheme
 - Money, achievements, family, music, art, companionship - all nice, but not a patch on having wisdom
 - Do not beg - it destroys self-respect

Questions and Observations

1) Going back to fill in this omitted chapter.
2) Ben Sira perhaps overeggs the benefits of being wise in this chapter. A foolish person with all of the above listed things it seems to me would be a pretty happy foolish person.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Sirach 43 text

Highlights

 - Marvels of nature

Summary

 - The sun is awe-inspiring
 - The moon is awe-inspiring
 - The stars are awe-inspiring
 - Rainbows are awe-inspiring
 - Meteorological phenomena are awe-inspiring
 - Yahweh made these - be impressed

Questions and Observations

1) Returning to the sequence with this one.
2) Ben Sira's knowledge of temperature-based comparisons is not a modern one. It hardly seems fair to criticise.

[ttf_drizabone]

I make a mess of those links don't I!

[ttf_MoominDave]

Pshaw. It doesn't signify. In any case, I'm one of those unbearable people that has to account things exactly, which is handy when it happens.

We had a sad occasion on Friday. We had three cats, Willow, Bianca, and Phoebe, the first two of which came from the same litter and were 16 (Phoebe is 14). They moved in along with Diane in early 2011. Bianca and Phoebe are your standard cats - alternately cute and annoying. B is often moody, P often insecurely attention-seeking. They are cats, with common cat personality flaws, but ours and well-loved. Willow was something special, a deeply lovely animal who was often quite shy, but would trustingly open up with us. She would ask for attention, but never insist. When one of us was unwell, she would always seem to sense it and come and curl up with us. When there was a disagreement between the cats, it would never be her that initiated it. A household cat is always a companion; Willow was a friend. And moreover one that we'd in the past been through life-threatening health scares with, on all sides.
But on Friday morning, it became clear that all was not well with her. Breathing heavily, she was in distress. We rang the vet, who instructed us to bring her in immediately for emergency attention. Breathing difficulties in cats are a very bad sign, we learned, and so it transpired - a combination of untreatable hyperthyroidism with the congestive heart failure that its stress on her system had caused meant that it was the end for her.

That was a hard evening. There was no way around the conclusion to end things, she'd lived a full and happy life, and we'd done all we could for her throughout it. But it really felt like pulling the plug on a friend, and still does. And the reason I'm posting this here? A new appreciation for the comfort in the idea that you'll see those that you've loved again after their departure. As she went I regretted intensely that there was no more of her to experience later. I can see just how soothing it must be to believe in this.

It occurs to me that I don't really know - does Christian theology hold that people are reunited with pets in the afterlife? It is amazing how attached one can become to them.

Btw, I'm going away later today, back next week.

[ttf_timothy42b]

Sorry to hear that, Dave. 

[ttf_drizabone]

Any loss of a relationship can be hard to take.

As to whether pets appear in the afterlife? the bible is pretty much silent on the issue.  Some have argued from the fact that animals are souls and the assumption that souls are immortal that they will be there, but I think that argument is unsupported.

[ttf_John the Theologian]

More credible evidence is that the picture of the New Heavens and New Earth in Isaiah 65 describes that the wolf and the lamb will lie down together.  Linking this with the pictures of the restoration of creation in the last 2 chapters of the Bible in which the curse is gone and the fruit trees bear fruit every month point us in the direction of continuity within the discontinuity. 

In other words the restored new creation may have the continuity of animal and plant life with the discontinuity of the reversal of the curse of death brought about by the Fall and sin.

This gives some measure of suggestion that it is possible that pets could be there in that state, but it is only a suggestion, not something definitively spoken about in Scripture or discussed much in Christian theology.

[ttf_drizabone]

Sirach 44 text
Sirach 45 text
Sirach 46 text
Sirach 47 text
Sirach 48 text
Sirach 49 text
Sirach 50 text

Highlights

 - Praise for significant Israelites and winding up

Summary

 - we had great ancestors: whether they were rich and wise or unremembered, including:
 - Enoch: pleased the Lord
 - Noah: was found perfect and bought the remnant through the flood
 - Abraham: was the father of many nations and received the covenant
 - Isaac and Jacob too
 - Moses: found led the people out of Egypt and spoke face to face with God
 - Aron: was given the covenant of priesthood
 - Phineas: was the 3rd most zealous for the Lord
 - Joshua and Caleb: saved Israel and were loyal and valiant
 - the Judges: did not fall into idolatry
 - Samuel: faithfully led the people
 - Nathan prophesied
 - David: was a mighty warrior who praised God with music and received the covenant of Kingship
 - Solomon: reigned in peace, was wise and amassed riches, but your folly caused the nation to split
 - Rehoboam and Jeroboam: were bad kings
 - Elijah: did mighty miracles and is destined to calm the wrath of God
 - Elisha: did twice as many miracles as Elijah and was brave unto death
 - Hezekiah: fortified Jerusalem and called on God to save them from the Assyrians
 - Isaiah: did miracles and saw the future
 - Josiah: was a good king, unlike the others (except for David and Hezekiah and Josiah)  
 - Ezekiel: saw a vision of God's glory
 - Zerubbabel, Jeshua and Nehemiah rebuilt the temple and the city walls after the return from Babylon
 - Simon of Onias: repaired and fortified the temple. ben Sirach thought he was wonderful
   - this might be him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_the_Just

 - bless God
 - may he bless us
 - Sirach hates the Seirites, the Philistines and the Shechemites

 - I've written this for understanding: you'll be happy if you put this wisdom into practice

Questions and Observations

1) Interesting list:
  - why does he give large amounts of space to people that are not as significant in the bible and less to those who are? eg he gives more space to Aron and Phineas  and Simon than Abraham and Moses.  
  - why does he include "bad" kings in a list of worthy ancestors

[ttf_drizabone]

Sirach 51 text

Highlights

 - Sirach thanks God and recommends wisdom

Summary

 - Sirach gives thanks to God for protecting him from various threats and for being kind to Israel
 - and tells us how he developed wisdom
 - and recommends that others do the same

[ttf_drizabone]

That's the end of Sirach so now its on to Isaiah.  Comments on Sirach are still open though.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 1 text

Highlights

 - a warning against unrepentant ritual

Summary

 - The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
 - the People have rebelled against the Lord
 - they are diseased, the country lies desolate
 - only a few left that are faithful
 - God despises the ritual of unrepentant sinners: it is empty and he will not listen to them
 - He wants repentance and promises forgiveness/cleansing

Questions and Observations

0) Isaiah is interesting

1) authorship issues: Does Isaiah record the visions of one man who could forsee the future? or is it a compilation of the words of a number of men, written after the events they talk about?

2) What is prophecy? A prediciton of the future?  Acutally I understand it as is a message to sinners to bring them to repantance, sometimes using predictions of the future to reinforce that message.

3) Historical setting: Isaiah wrote to Judah at a time when the Northern tribes had been captured by Assyria, but Judah was mostly at peace.  But it had bad kings and was mostly not following The Lord. 

4) Genre - poetic and narrative:
   

• [li] intro places the book in a historical setting [/li][li] but it is concerned with the behaviour of the people rather than a historical recounting, although it has that sometimes[/li][li] Isaiah uses a lot of picture language (mataphors and similes) in his writing.  What's a literalist to do?! [/li]

5) Significant themes of the book introduced in the first chapter (from what I remember the book covers later) :

 

• [li] faithful remnant : God keeps a small number of people faithful to him [/li][li] salvation: at least in terms of being cleansed from sin [/li][li] repentance and its importance for acceptance [/li]

[ttf_MoominDave]

Thanks for the kind cat-based words, people. Regarding what Christianity teaches about it, I recall a typically Pratchettian slice of whimsy in a footnote to one of his books, where he suggested that the enormous amount of room allocated per person in heaven would allow lots of room for pets. But I hadn't considered what the actual position might be. It sounds from John's words that it isn't a question that anyone has found the need to rule definitively on over the ages.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 12, 2017, 06:37PMSirach 44 text
Sirach 45 text
Sirach 46 text
Sirach 47 text
Sirach 48 text
Sirach 49 text
Sirach 50 text

Highlights

 - Praise for significant Israelites and winding up
I've been wasting my time making narrative summaries - Jesus ben Sira already did the job for us 2,200 years ago...

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 12, 2017, 06:37PM1) Interesting list:
  - why does he give large amounts of space to people that are not as significant in the bible and less to those who are? eg he gives more space to Aron and Phineas  and Simon than Abraham and Moses. 
  - why does he include "bad" kings in a list of worthy ancestors

Perhaps he also had access to other written sources that are now lost? Remember that history always reflects the priorities of those that write it down; we shouldn't expect Ben Sira and e.g. Ezra to have exactly the same focus when they write.

Regarding what Reho- and Jero-boam are doing in there, Ben Sira is telling us the history of his nation through people that can be used as figureheads. His concern is to identify historical pivots, and then to label them with the names of those that defined them. The division of the kingdoms is a crucial part of the story as given in this tradition, and these two kings the obvious candidates to make the events memorable with, despite their poor reputations.

The "Epilogue" is odd. Firstly a snarky little swipe at some groups of people, which doesn't feel like a winding-up topic at all. Then some text talking about the author in the third person glowingly - so were these final verses the work of the translator that wrote the prologue? Then Chapter 51 seems to stand beyond this, as something quite separate, differentiated by the book already having ended. The Hebrew text might not contain the portion that seems by the translator? Not sure where to access it though.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 14, 2017, 09:15PMSirach 51 text

Highlights

 - Sirach thanks God and recommends wisdom

Summary

 - Sirach gives thanks to God for protecting him from various threats and for being kind to Israel
 - and tells us how he developed wisdom
 - and recommends that others do the same

"Travel broadens the mind" - a pretty universal truth

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 18, 2017, 03:55PMThat's the end of Sirach so now its on to Isaiah.  Comments on Sirach are still open though.

Sorry, I've been stuck on a hand-held device far away for a week during which I've been mostly preoccupied hanging around in hospital A&E departments and photographing Scottish gravestones. I've let my duties here pile up a bit. Normal service resumes.

Btw Martin, you're past 400 summaries too now... You're a few ahead of me if we only count the protocanon, a few behind if we add in the deuterocanon. But there's not much in it; we've kept this going at a remarkably matched pace.

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMPart I - The Tetrateuch
Genesis

• [li]Big picture stuff
  • [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
  [/li][li]Abraham; extensive travels, original covenant, Lot, not sacrificing Isaac[/li][li]Jacob; conflict with twin Esau, banishment, wives, 12 sons[/li][li]Joseph; betrayal to Egypt, rise, saving of family, supposed origins of 12 tribes[/li]

Exodus

• [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]

Leviticus

• [li]...many laws are given[/li]

Numbers

• [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 16, 2016, 04:49AMPart II - The Deuteronomistic History
Deuteronomy

• [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]

Joshua

• [li]Conquest of Canaan under Joshua[/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes, East and West banks of the Jordan[/li]

Judges

• [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest, compare with previous book[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson[/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North and the Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]

Ruth

• [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times in the era of the Judges[/li]

1 Samuel

• [li]Samuel is a priestly leader in a time of Philistine conflicts who needs a worthy successor[/li][li]Saul is appointed to the new role of king and with his son Jonathan defeats the Ammonites, Philistines, Amalekites, but he falls out with Samuel, who anoints David as a replacement king secretly[/li][li]David (a military hero) and Saul vie for superiority over a long period, eventually brought to an end when the Philistines kill Saul in battle[/li]

2 Samuel

• [li]The kingdom nearly splits, but David unites it, doing many heroic deeds[/li][li]But in time he becomes morally suspect and manipulated by schemers[/li]

1 Kings

• [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally but gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom, building the "first temple" and a palace; however, like David he becomes morally suspect in time[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Kings succeed in both Israel and Judah; Elijah gains prominence as a prophet[/li]

2 Kings

• [li]Long successions of kings of both Israel and Judah are described, and the prophet Elisha comes to prominence[/li][li]Most kings do not prioritise Yahweh-worship - none in Israel, but some in Judah.
  [/li][li]First Israel then Judah are unable to tread the difficult path of negotiation between stronger powers on either side, with both populations destroyed and exiled by 586 BC[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Oct 28, 2016, 07:11AMPart III - The Chronicler's History (including miscellanea)
1 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of genealogy to the beginning; return of some exiles to Judah[/li][li]Recap of Samuel written to favour David more highly[/li]

2 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of Kings with only the Judah parts and a focus on relations with Yahweh[/li][li]End of exile when Babylon falls[/li]

Ezra

• [li]Cyrus of Persia commands Judah to return home and rebuild their temple; decades later Artaxerxes of Persia commands Ezra to lead a second wave of returnees[/li]

Nehemiah

• [li]Nehemiah, a Judahite official of Artaxerxes of Persia, is appointed governor of Judah, rebuilding Jerusalem's wall; he and Ezra organise Judah, mixing enlightened social reform with brutally dogmatic interpretations of Mosaic law[/li]

Tobit Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]Tobit and his son Tobias are exiled in Nineveh when Israel falls, while Sarah lives in Media; a demon has killed seven of her husbands. With an angel's help, Tobias rescues her, and everyone lives happily ever after[/li]

Judith Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]Nebuchadnezzar is enraged by the Israelites' failure to answer a military summons, and despatches his general Holofernes with his army to suppress them; Judith, a beautiful Israelite widow, uses feminine wiles to distract Holofernes, killing him[/li]

Esther

• [li]Jewish exile in Susa Esther wins a beauty contest to become queen of Persia; factions vie to destroy the Jews in Persia, but the influence of her and her uncle Mordecai carries the day[/li]

1 Maccabees Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]In the 160s BC the Greek rulers attempt a religious crackdown in Judaea, against which Judas Maccabeus leads a rebellion[/li][li]Various competing empires trade blows, and all the while the rebellion becomes more secure; Jonathan Apphus and then Simon Thassi succeed Judas and establish a medium-term peace, along with Simon's dynasty, the Hasmonaeans[/li]

2 Maccabees  Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]Prior to the Maccabean revolt, unedifying political struggles within the priesthood result in turmoil, resulting in the crackdown of 1 Maccabees; Judas leads the first portion of his revolt, in less detail this time[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 12, 2017, 06:25AMPart IV - Wisdom Literature
Job

• [li]Job is a wealthy and good man, devoted to Yahweh[/li][li]Satan talks Yahweh into letting him test Job's faith, which he does by destroying his fortune, family, and health[/li][li]Job and his friends talk it over at length; Job is convinced of his innocence, his friends of his guilt[/li][li]Yahweh eventually turns up and ticks them all off for not respecting him enough; he restores Job's fortunes twice over[/li]

Psalms

• [li]Large collection of devotional songs/poems, whose themes include
  • [li]Overarching powerfulness of Yahweh[/li][li]Need to praise and thank Yahweh[/li][li]How bad it feels when Yahweh feels absent, and how good it feels when he feels present[/li]
  [/li]

Prayer of Manasseh Orthodox

• [li]An extra psalm[/li]

Proverbs

• [li]Large collection of wise sayings, many attributed to King Solomon. Major themes include:
  • [li]Industriousness, Humility, Fair dealing, Marital faithfulness, Religious devotion, Political savvy[/li]
  [/li]

Ecclesiastes

• [li]A harshly pragmatic sermon, attributed to Solomon, with the moral: All that one achieves will perish; the only true joy is to be taken in doing the tasks in front of you[/li]

Song of Solomon

• [li]A borderline erotic exaltation of the joys of love, possibly between Solomon and his bride, possibly between his bride and her lover[/li]

Wisdom  Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]The point of wisdom is to achieve salvation through Yahweh; those that reject this are accursed[/li]

Sirach  Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]The collected wisdom of Joshua ben Sira (c.200 BC), a large and rambling miscellany of precepts. Major themes include:
  • [li]Death, Friendship, Happiness, Shame, Money, Sin, Social Justice, Etiquette, Women, History[/li]
  [/li]

[ttf_MoominDave]

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 18, 2017, 05:43PMIsaiah 1 text

0) Isaiah is interesting
I've been looking forward to it, expecting issues of some complexity.

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 18, 2017, 05:43PM1) authorship issues: Does Isaiah record the visions of one man who could forsee the future? or is it a compilation of the words of a number of men, written after the events they talk about?
I think you can guess my initial take on this. We don't suppose the existence of a faculty of foresight for which we have no reliable evidence or physical mechanism that we might imagine could cause it. We follow Sherlock Holmes - by eliminating the impossible, we see the possible. If we see words that we think were written before events that they are theologically supposed to describe, we ask ourselves if this is not some kind of grand 'cold reading', providing prophecy that may be fitted to any suitable occasion.

I see that the deductive position is complex. It is suggested that we may divide the book into three (possibly widely) time-separated portions due to different authors, proto-, deutero-, and trito-Isaiah, respectively chapters 1-39, 40-55, 56-66, on grounds of perspective shifts in the writing and the same phenomenon being observed elsewhere in this tradition. Further, that we may divide proto-Isaiah (i.e. this current material) into poetic words that are likely the work of the historical Isaiah and prose words that likely form a later commentary (court of King Josiah?) on the verse.

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 19, 2017, 03:56AM
I see that the deductive position is complex. It is suggested that we may divide the book into three (possibly widely) time-separated portions due to different authors, proto-, deutero-, and trito-Isaiah, respectively chapters 1-39, 40-55, 56-66, on grounds of perspective shifts in the writing and the same phenomenon being observed elsewhere in this tradition.

When I took a biblical theology class at Notre Dame in the 70s, we were told Isaiah should be really divided into Isaiah I (1-39) and Isaiah II.  I wonder if there was always support for 3, or if that is a later development.

[ttf_John the Theologian]

Quote from: timothy42b on Apr 19, 2017, 04:59AMWhen I took a biblical theology class at Notre Dame in the 70s, we were told Isaiah should be really divided into Isaiah I (1-39) and Isaiah II.  I wonder if there was always support for 3, or if that is a later development.

The main reason for dividing the book is because a unified Isaiah gives support to predictive prophecy-- namely the Cyrus narratives in Isaiah 45--  which of course, is anathema to those prone to rationalistic understandings of the text.  Scholars have attempted to find stylistic reasons, etc, but to those of orthodox faith, it sure looks like the dislike of predictive prophecy is what is driving the literary analysis. Once a number of university scholars adopt such rationalistic approaches it often seems like others just follow like lemmings over the cliff.

The classic study which argues for the unity of Isaiah is the late Princeton professor-- PhD from the University of Berlin-- O T Allis.  E J Young has a short essay which lays out the case for a unified Isaiah in summary form.

https://www.amazon.com/Unity-Isaiah-Study-Prophecy/dp/1579105505

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/ifes/4-3_young.pdf


It's a case of presuppositions again. 

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 2 text

Highlights

 - Isaiah announces the Judgement to come.

Summary

 - In the latter days the Lord will rule over all the nations from Jerusalem and there will be peace.
 - The Lord has rejected the house of Jacob because they are wicked.
 - There will be a day when the Lord will judge all the earth and man and his works will be humbled before the glory of the Lord

Questions and Observations

1) When are the latter days?

2) Is this the same as the Day of the Lord? (v12)  When is that?

3) How would this have related to contemporary Judah?

[ttf_drizabone]

oops

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 3 text
Isaiah 4 text

Highlights

 - Judgment on Judah and Jerusalem

Summary

 - the Lord is taking away the resources and skilled leaders from Judah
 - no-one left behind will want to lead
 - He is doing this because Judah and Jerusalem have turned away from the Lord
 - The Lord will judge the rulers and the daughters of Zion
 - He will take away their beauty and bravery and will leave rottenness and death.
 - women will be deperate for a husband

 - after the Lord has cleansed the land it will be beautiful and a shelter for the survivors

Questions and Observations

1) Isaiah has a good turn of phrase in v16 " glancing ... mincing ... tinkling". 

2) This chapter starts out being in the present tense but in v18 reverts to future.  maybe v1... is from the perspective of the day of the Lord as it continues on from that in the previous chapter.  Maybe time is going to be a flexible concept in this book.

3) Does this fit in with what we would expect Isaiah's hearers were experiencing?  How?

4) 4:1 sounds a bit like the Muslim version of heaven but its depicting disaster and reproach, not reward.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 5 text

Highlights

 - A parable about a vineyard.

Summary

 - my beloved had a vineyard that he planted choice grapes and nurtured but it yielded wild grapes
 - Now men of Judah what should he do?
 - He's going to break down the walls and let it eaten and trampled and filled with weeds
 - the vineyard of the Lord is Judah, he looked for justice and was given bloodshed
 - woe to those who are greedy for they shall be frustrated
 - My people will die, be exiled and be humbled
 - The Lord will be shown to be holy. The lambs and nomads will enjoy the bounty of the land
 - Woe to the wicked, for the anger of the Lord is kindled against his people; he will call for the ferocious nations of the earth to come and carry them away

Questions and Observations

1) This is pretty easy to follow so far.  The people of Judah/Jerusalem (esp the rulers and the rich) are bad, the Lord has got tired of this and is going to punish them.

2) Jesus uses this parable/story in the Gospels.  Which is why the listeners then new what he was talking about.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 6 text

Highlights

 - isaiah's calling and the judgement proclaimed

Summary

 - In the year the King Uzziah died, Isaiah saw the Lord sitting on his throne in the temple
 - There were Seraphim and smoke there, and Isaiah was scared because he was unclean
 - one of the Seraphim cleansed Isaiah

 - the Lord called for a volunteer to take a message of judgement to the people until the nation was laid waste and the people are exiled
 - Isaiah volunteered

Questions and Observations

1) Note the contrast between the two kings in v1.  I guess its significant

2) This chapter describes a call of Isaiah after 5 chapters of visions.  Either he was a prophet already and this was a more specific assignment within that role or it was his call as a prophet, and the first 5 chapters are an introduction to the book and not meant to his chronologically first visions.  Or there could be other options.

3) v13 indicates that a seed will remain as a 'stump'

4) The judgment on Israel is repeated in the New Testament gospels and Acts.  The stump symbol is referenced in Rom 12

Postscript.

Remembering 1:1 "The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."  So Isiah started prophesying in the days of Uzziah.  That could have been in the year the Uzziah died.  So Isaiah's call in this chapter is at the beginning of his career as a prophet rather than a assignment later in his career. 

Which means that
- the visions are not necessarily chronological.
- we get to look for why the text is organised the way it is
- the first 5 chapters were probably an introduction 

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 7 text

Highlights

 - Isaiah prophecies of the Assyrian invasion of Judah

Summary

 - During Ahaz's rule Israel and Syria attacked Juday.  God told Isaiah to tell Ahaz not to stress because there attack would not about to anything if he stoof firm.
 - Isaiah told Ahaz to ask for a sign from the Lord to confirm this, but Ahaz declined.
 - Isaiah said the God was going to give him one anyway: a young woman/virgin would shortly deliver her first born and that before he could tell right from wrong Israel and Syria will be laid waste and Judah would be invaded by Assyria and Egypt

Questions and Observations

1) A new vision in the time of Ahaz this time.  I wonder if there will be anything relating to Jotham's rule later.

2) there is some controvery over the sign that God gave to Ahaz because of the possible mention of a virginal birth and because in the Gospels it was claimed as a prophesy about Jesus.  I've got no problem with God revealing his plans for the future and organising virgin births but I know that not everyone agrees.  I don't know why? Anyway this link discusses some of the issues and has a interesting understanding of the implications of the sign.  https://www.goarch.org/-/the-word-almah-in-isaiah-7-14-a-new-etymology-1-

3) v21 looks like its talking about abundance but the verses around it tell of the area being taken over by Assyrians and Egyptians.  It doesn't seem to fit. Any ideas?

[ttf_MoominDave]

I said "Normal service is resumed", but I spoke too hastily. Stuck on a handheld device in a hospital bed. Gallbladder came out yesterday, in some fairly disreputable state. This stuff needs more attention than I can give on this  device. Hopefully to resume in a few days.

[ttf_drizabone]

that's ok. I'm enjoying Isaiah, so take your time to recover.

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quote from: drizabone on Apr 22, 2017, 02:24PMthat's ok. I'm enjoying Isaiah, so take your time to recover.

Isaiah got me trouble once.

I was doing music for an Army chapel.  A very conservative Baptist chaplain was running this particular service.  If there was no solo at offertory the organist usually provided something.  I played a simple psalm tone (change chords on the last accented syllable of each line) and sang that Arise, Shine, for your Light is Come from Isaiah. 

The preacher was momentarily stunned into silence and I got through a line or two, then he snapped "That'll be enough of that!  Play Doxology.  Now!"  The collection plates were only halfway back but I dutifully played Doxology. 

Apparently it was too papal sounding to be tolerated. 

[ttf_drizabone]

Isn't the Doxology full of Calvinist chords?

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 8 text

Highlights

 - More babies

Summary

 - Isaiah gets instructions to write 'Belonging to Maher-shalal-hash-baz' on it.
 - Soon his wife has a baby and they call him Maher-shalal-hash-baz to indicate that the wealth of Damascus and Syria will be taken away by Assyria before the boy can talk.
 - then the Lord said that because the people had refused his gentle flow the land will be overtaken by Assyria's torrent, but only up to their neck's.
 - Isaiah is warned not to follow the people, but to follow the Lord and fear him, because he will be both a refuge and a ruin.
 - Isaiah declares to his disciples that he will stay faithful to the Lord and not the People.
 - The Lord has given the people signs and teachings but they just ask for words from the dead. They have no light and will be thrust into darkness.

Questions and Observations

1) Maher-shalal-hash-baz means something like Quick-pickings-easy-prey

2) Another baby sign.  Only this time we know his parents, and there was nothing controversial with his conception and his name is much less impressive.  Young Maher as a sign was more about the current situation rather than something that could be used in the distant future.

3) Peter is going to describe Jesus as a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to Israel.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 9 text

Highlights

 - Another baby

Summary

 - Once there was gloom for the northern tribes but the light will shine in the latter time
 - The people walked in darkness, but have seen a great light, and they rejoice for you have broken the rod of the oppressor
 - For unto us a child is born ...
 - the government will be on his shoulders ...
 - he will have lots of great names
 - and he will reign in peace on the throne of David.
 - The Lord has judged Israel and has stirred up their enemies agains them
 - The people didn't repent so the Lord cut them off.
 - Their wickedness burns like a fire and is never satisfied.

Questions and Observations

1) I'm having a hard time summarising this but still includeing the details that I think are significant.

2) I think it was Zebulun and Naphtali that were taken by the Assyrians first. So its fair that they get to see the light first.

3) Isaiah's vision is of someone who will bring them out from the oppression, they would probably be expecting to read of someone like Gideon, but instead they get another baby! I'm going to suggest that this is the one we read about in chapter 7.

4) I expect that everyone knows that this baby prophecy is claimed for Jesus in the gospels but I'll mention it just in case you don't.

[ttf_drizabone]

Isaiah 10 text

Highlights

 - More judgement and comfort.
 - No babies.

Summary

(continuing on from the previous chapter)
 - woe to those in the government who oppress the poor and needy because they won't escape God's anger on the day of punishment.
 - woe to Assyria because they were told to judge my people but they were arrogant and destroyed many nations.
 - The Lord will punish the king of Assyria and his army because they magnified themselves above the Lord.
 - There will be a remnant in Israel that will return to the Lord. They will return.
 - The People should not be afaid because the Lord's anger (against them) will be completed, then his anger will be directed to the destruction of the Assyrians.

Questions and Observations

1) You can imagine how popular Isaiah was with the ruling class in Israel.

2) The prophecy in this chapter continues the condemnation of the bad leaders of Israel and the arrogant Assyrians as well as pronouncing comfort for the weak and oppressed.

3) I'm not sure how comfortable it would have been for them in the short term though.