Using GoFund me to finance a new horn

ttf_slide advantage · Post by **ttf_slide advantage** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:02 am

I recently became aware of a young trombone living in Utah who has decided it would be a good idea to start a Go Fund Me account to finance the new horn he says he needs.

In his appeal he mentions that he already owns a 42B but it is hindering his development. (or something along those words)

Thoughts?

I responded by saying that I found his appeal to be in extreme bad form. Asking strangers on the internet for $ is rude. When I bought my first professional horn, I figured a way to pull it off. In my case I went to the bank. On the strength of a car loan cosigned by my father which I had paid off, I asked for a 90 day note. Admittedly banks don't do loans of that type anymore, certainly not for the amount I borrowed ($225 to pay for a used Bach 12 in 1976)

I suggested that this kid start saving money he EARNED, whether by mowing yards, flipping burgers, busking music or whatever. Maybe ask granddad for the $.

Most everyone who responded had similar sentiments. My thoughts are this: If he invested some sweat equity, he probably will appreciate the horn a lot more than if it was given to him.

thoughts?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:09 am

I have a problem with the idea that a Bach 42B would be hindering ANYBODY's development, unless it's beat to death. This is not a cheap Indian TSO that is a chore to play; it's something that has been a stable in the professional world for 3 generations.

I also agree with you that this kind of use for GoFundMe is a form of scamming. GoFundMe should be for worthwhile projects much larger than a kid wanting a fancy trombone. Want to create a Brass Band in your area? Fine. Want to assist someone with extreme medical bills? Still OK. Just want a handout? Fuggedaboudit.

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:26 am

I disagree that asking strangers for money is inherently rude. I think judging the person without knowing them or their full story is potentially rude.

If you want to reach out to them, ask them for more details and a goal of having a better understanding. Otherwise, maybe you're the person being rude.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:46 am

I think in this particular case it's cultural. Without too much digging you can see he's LDS, which isn't surprising out here in Utah (ca. 1/3 of the population). The culture is different than in other areas of the us, and even within the rest of the state; it's very communal if you are on the inside. I suspect there are a number of people in that community that have chipped in and this provides the easiest avenue to go about doing so. And after he starts his career and gets established, I also wouldn't be surprised if he ends up contributing to some other similar situation when another starts their career with getting tools they need for that. It isn't not working, it's a reinvestment in your own community at least from that perspective. So the description, while probably trimming around the edges, is not unreasonable for describing the situation to non-musicians... as explaining the intricacies of why, for example, I prefer Shires over a Bach are not uncommonly lost on other trombonists, attempting to do so with the layperson who can't tell the difference between a saxophone and a trombone is probably not as effective a strategy.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:11 am

I've got mixed feelings about this; maybe because of the way he's presenting it. The general tone is "I'm a really good trombonist, so I need a better instrument". If I could give him one piece of advice, it would be that he needs to tell people how him getting a new instrument will benefit a larger community. He makes a brief mention of paying it forward, but provides no specifics. I also don't really see an indication of what he career goals are. He talks about what he's done and what he's doing, but not what he wants/plans to do in the future.

On the other hand, I find this part encouraging:QuoteI also teach private lessons to middle and high school students, and occasionally do clinics, masterclasses, or group lessons with band programs in the area on a volunteer basis.

ttf_ssking2b · Post by **ttf_ssking2b** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:12 am

This may be a scam it has been done before.

ttf_MTbassbone · Post by **ttf_MTbassbone** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:23 am

I sent the guy a PM on Facebook to provide some alternative thoughts. The comments in the post looked like they were headed down hill. I will admit my initial thoughts were not positive when I read his plea for a new axe. I thought maybe fixing up his Bach would be a good alternative. Maybe a new Thayer valve, and some good slide work would go a long way. I also mentioned if he were to attend graduate school there maybe changes to his equipment again. Ultimately, I felt it was important to mention the equipment game can be a slippery slope. If the money were to be saved for a rainy day or invested in lessons from someone who can efficiently teach you to teach yourself it may pay greater dividends. I agree a bit with Dan and Matt too. We don't know all of his story, and he may pay it forward someday. It has our attention, and maybe at the very least it will spark an interesting conversation.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:35 am

These stories seem to come up every so often, and every time on this website there seems to be quite a lot of negativity towards people who do this...

I wouldnt do this myself for a handful of reasons, but I dont understand why people take offense to someone asking for help? If you dont want to donate to the go fund me thing, dont donate....

Most posts against this sort of thing start with something like "when I bought my trombone I did this..." or "In my day I got my instrument in a different way"... why does it matter how you funded your own instrument?

I mean really, Who cares? I probably wont donate, but I dont think this person is necessarily ripping off people who do, or attempting to scam as many people as possible.... can someone explain to me why this is such a big deal?

ttf_slide advantage · Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:02 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 28, 2018, 07:26AMI disagree that asking strangers for money is inherently rude. I think judging the person without knowing them or their full story is potentially rude.

If you want to reach out to them, ask them for more details and a goal of having a better understanding. Otherwise, maybe you're the person being rude.

Okay, maybe his choice of funding a new horn may not be rude, but it is in poor taste.

I disagree that by expressing my opinions on the matter that somehow I am rude. When this kid put it out there, he should expect some feedback. If I was his teacher or parent, I would have strongly discouraged him from doing it this way.

ttf_chromebone · Post by **ttf_chromebone** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:13 am

I don't know, call me old fashioned. Whenever I wanted something like a new trombone, If I didn't have the money, I either didn't get it, or I went out and got a job to earn the money to buy it.

ttf_slide advantage · Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:23 am

Quote from: chromebone on Jan 28, 2018, 10:13AMI don't know, call me old fashioned. Whenever I wanted something like a new trombone, If I didn't have the money, I either didn't get it, or I went out and got a job to earn the money to buy it.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:26 am

I thought that GoFundMe donors were to get something in return. For example, there was a GoFundMe to create a recording. The donors above a certain level got a free copy of the recording. What is he offering in return for my contribution?

ttf_slide advantage · Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:38 am

I was incorrect in saying it is a Go Fund Me account. I went back to his Facebook post.

It is just a simple appeal for money.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:43 am

Man, i'd guess there are about 1000 other young Forum members equally deserving of a new horn. I don't see them begging for money (and I wouldn't give them anyway).

ttf_slide advantage · Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:51 am

I really would love to own a Rath R3 with nickel bell. I couldn't afford it when I first tried it. I can't afford it now.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:58 am

I think most of these are from kids that have seen the unbridled success of many GoFundMes and Kickstarters. What they see is not the consequences (free money doesn't really exist) but the possibility of getting a horn for free with very little effort on their part. I don't really blame these kids, and you need to put yourself in their shoes.

Does that mean they should get donations? Probably not, unless they are in real dire need.

ttf_slide advantage · Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:23 am

Two words

Instant gratification

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:34 am

Quote from: Greg Waits on Jan 28, 2018, 11:23AMTwo words

Instant gratification

Yup, which isn't uncommon. What is new now is that these kids can be very obvious about their want for instant gratification, which wasn't possible before. Again, I don't really blame them- they know not what they do.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:50 am

Beer is also instant gratification but that doesn't get criticized as much as millennials

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:39 pm

He owns a 42T...

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:59 pm

Yeah that is my problem... kid plays a Bach 42T...

ttf_MikeBMiller · Post by **ttf_MikeBMiller** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:25 pm

There was a college student in our local musicians FB group that started a GFM asking the world to buy him a $15,000 cello, as the one he had wasn't good enough. I don't think he got too many takers on that one. I told him to get a $5K cello and start playing some gigs.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:39 pm

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 28, 2018, 07:26AM
If you want to reach out to them, ask them for more details and a goal of having a better understanding. Otherwise, maybe you're the person being rude.

The responsibility for providing details and a goal for purposes of a better understanding rests on the shoulders of the one asking, not the ones being asked.

<Edit: Fixed Quote>

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:25 pm

My only thought on the matter is: why does it matter at all?

If a kid (or anyone for that matter) wants to ask the Internet for a new horn, let him ask. If you don't agree with his method or reasoning, then just ignore it.

There was a time, long ago, when buying anything on credit - even a 90 day note - was nearly a sin. Now it's commonplace.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:47 pm

I still dont understand how this is either rude or in poor taste? How does this kids post affect anyone else at all?

Worst case scenario for this person is that no one donates and they learn a lesson that they cant expect money from this avenue and might have to "make do" with what they already have.... best case scenario they get a new trombone...?

Only impact I see on other people here is missing out on the chance to share their story of how they bought their own trombones.
This just seems like such a non issue... but im happy to be told im missing something here?

ttf_Driving Park · Post by **ttf_Driving Park** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:55 pm

This kind of crowdfunding doesn't bother me. What does bother me is when it's something really stupid and they end up getting a metric ton of money, like that time somebody made a joke GFM/Kickstarter asking for help making a potato salad, and ended up raising $70,000. That's just absurd. I know someone who made a serious campaign to fund him buying Chipotle every day for a year...fortunately nobody parted ways with their money for that one.

ttf_sirisobhakya · Post by **ttf_sirisobhakya** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:17 pm

I think I understand why some are bothered with this kind of thing.

We earn money, some in a hard way, and we buy something including our horn with that hard-earned money. When some kid's parents bought him/her a good horn, some may feel jealous, but at least it's that family's money, and it's because of affection, so most congratulate the kid, and everyone is happy.

Begging unknown people in the open is different. You do at most crying for money, using no skill, without any effort, and you get the money. Would you feel jealous and feel that something is wrong when a beggar earns more money than you do? Some may not, but I bet the majority does. It even feels more wrong of that beggar actually already has better car and house than you. It's not your money, of course, but at least maybe you ask yourself "why do I have to work if I can get more money doing this?"

(This kid may or may not get the money or the horn, but I have seen other people get away with it, even larger sum.)

But in the end, I doubt someone would go down low and do anything similar. It is a matter of pride. Some have it, some don't.

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:28 pm

Quote from: WayneB on Jan 28, 2018, 06:39PMThe responsibility for providing details and a goal for purposes of a better understanding rests on the shoulders of the one asking, not the ones being asked.

<Edit: Fixed Quote>

Ok. Then reach out to them and recommend they do a better job of explaining why they need/want assistance. Teach him something. Of course, it could be a lot of things that are of a very personal nature. Deadbeat dad. Drug addicted mom. Already working two jobs to take care of brothers/sisters.

Instead, it's "back in my day...thus, you're doing it wrong."

Meanwhile, the minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation and everything costs more than it used to. A big one? College tuition. 1976 tuition, room AND board? $2,577. These days it's over $25k. Nearly triple the cost when accounting for inflation.

Don't want to give him money? Cool. No big deal. Want to send him a message telling him how wrong he is while relaying how it was 40yrs ago? IMO, rude.

Edit: Let me amend that. I don't think Greg set out to be rude. I don't believe that was his intent. But, he also asked for thoughts and my thought is that his response was one made without enough details, regardless of whose responsibility it is to provide them.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:30 pm

Quote from: Driving Park on Jan 28, 2018, 07:55PM...I know someone who made a serious campaign to fund him buying Chipotle every day for a year...fortunately nobody parted ways with their money for that one.

Does that include free Norvo Virus?

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:38 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 28, 2018, 10:26AMI thought that GoFundMe donors were to get something in return.

That's KickStarter. It's my understanding that GoFundMe is strictly donation and the return is feeling good about helping someone or something out.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:43 pm

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Jan 28, 2018, 08:17PMI think I understand why some are bothered with this kind of thing.

We earn money, some in a hard way, and we buy something including our horn with that hard-earned money. When some kid's parents bought him/her a good horn, some may feel jealous, but at least it's that family's money, and it's because of affection.

Begging unknown people in the open is different. You do at most crying for money, using no skill, without any effort, and you get the money. Would you feel jealous and feel that something is wrong when a beggar earns more money than you do? Some may not, but I bet the majority does. It even feels more wrong of that beggar actually already has better car and house than you. It's not your money, of course, but at least maybe you ask yourself "why do I have to work if I can get more money doing this?"

(This kid may or may not get the money or the horn, but I have seen other people get away with it, even larger sum.)

But in the end, I doubt someone would do anything like that. It is a matter of pride. Some have it, some don't.

I haven't seen the original post being discussed, so Im only going off the accounts of what has been written here, but it doesnt sound like begging to me, and It doesnt sound like this person is making any kind of secret of their situation. They say they already have a trombone but they feel its holding them back so they want a new one. Whether its holding this person back or not is irrelevant, they are not trying to trick you into giving away your money and if they were, this would probably be the least efficient way to do it. It would be a different situation if they were actively lying about being in financial difficulty, and trying to convince people that this was the only way they could get money, trying to emotionally manipulate them.

This person isnt doing anything illegal, or arguably, even anything immoral. They are just attempting to try their luck at an avenue that has successfully worked for others before. If someone can get 70 grand for making a potato salad then why not try and see if you can get a trombone out of it? If you dont, someone else probably will. I take less issue with the person doing this than I do with people who have enough money that they can give without thinking to a "cause" such as this.

ttf_hassein · Post by **ttf_hassein** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:15 pm

If ya'll really want to get technical-Banks make money out of thin air.

ttf_Driving Park · Post by **ttf_Driving Park** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:25 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 28, 2018, 08:30PMDoes that include free Norvo Virus?

That's gotta be one of the reward levels!

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:56 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 28, 2018, 08:38PMThat's KickStarter. It's my understanding that GoFundMe is strictly donation and the return is feeling good about helping someone or something out.

I don't see why one GoFundMe by one trombonist would be praised, such as the two that have recently been posted asking for money for much more famous trombonists who are retired and have no savings, while this one is being torn to pieces. There's inherently no difference, except that this unknown young guy obviously is easy to tear down, while we think of the more famous trombonists as more deserving. In the end, it's two guys with no cash asking for your money, and who knows what they'll actually use it for.

No one has to give money to any of these requests. If you feel better donating to help someone, you should do what you feel is right.

I'm just confused by this thread. It's kind of like a targeted charity toy drive. It's not like he's asking for money for drink or drugs (cuz no one would ever do that!), or funding for a nuclear program

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:38 am

I think there is a difference between two legendary trombonists - Urbie Green and Julian Priester - who are suffering financial hardship at the ends of their lives and a young guy who wants a new horn because his current Bach 42T is, in his opinion, holding him back.

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:43 pm

Quote from: Ellrod on Jan 29, 2018, 08:38AMI think there is a difference between two legendary trombonists - Urbie Green and Julian Priester - who are suffering financial hardship at the ends of their lives and a young guy who wants a new horn because his current Bach 42T is, in his opinion, holding him back.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:50 am

If he wants to beg for money for a new horn on the internet it's his prerogative, as it's my prerogative not to give him any money. He already has a good horn (that may be in need or repair), but I am very particular these days about who I decide to give my money too, and a kid who wants to upgrade to a fancy expensive horn isn't high on my priority list. I've been playing used horns I've saved and shopped for bargains on, why would I want to finance someone else. Unless the person asking had demonstrated a real need and extenuating circumstances as to why they couldn't earn and save for the horn they wanted I wouldn't be inclined to donate to his cause. It isn't particularly rude of him to ask, nor is it rude of me to decide his cause isn't worthy of my dollars. I do think that it is a little naive of him to think that people will be inclined to give him money for a horn when there are plenty of kids out there that would love to have the horn he is playing now. I would be more inclined to give to him if he were asking for help raising a few hundred dollars to repair his current horn.

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:01 am

Quote from: Radar on Jan 30, 2018, 09:50AMI do think that it is a little naive of him to think that people will be inclined to give him money for a horn when there are plenty of kids out there that would love to have the horn he is playing now.

People have gotten more for less...

https://www.gofundme.com/pay-off-dumb-speeding-ticket

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:28 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 30, 2018, 10:01AMPeople have gotten more for less...

https://www.gofundme.com/pay-off-dumb-speeding-ticketAh, sometimes it's all in the presentation/packaging.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:14 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 30, 2018, 10:01AMPeople have gotten more for less...

https://www.gofundme.com/pay-off-dumb-speeding-ticket

God bless America.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:34 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 30, 2018, 10:01AMPeople have gotten more for less...

https://www.gofundme.com/pay-off-dumb-speeding-ticket

Wow... funny the way people work - at least from what it appears - seems like because this guy is being "humorously cool" people are willing to throw couple of dollars his way... and then when other people see the traction he's getting, they have a good laugh and then tag along and donate as well for hilarity's sake...

At least that's how it appears.

In my mind, SURE everyone's free to fund whatever they want... but it is a bit a tacky to go on there basically asking for other people to fatten up your wallet. There are people in this world who are deprived of nourishing food, potable water, clothes and housing AND who don't have opportunities to earn much money if any at all. For my own part, I'd be much more inclined to help a father feed his starving kids than to help a kid whose parents bought him a high-end instrument buy yet another just "because he can". Or even letting kids who normally WOULDN'T have opportunities to explore music get the chance to do so. For my part, it's just something of higher merit.

I mean, for anyone who does donate, it's your money... but to at least consider some of the other causes that could be helped instead.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:16 pm

Problem for the needy people you mention is that they probably have no access to post on GoFundMe, and also no place to receive donations even if they did. I guess the best way to help them is to donate to Food Pantries, Church Drives, and to elect Representatives who care.

ttf_slide advantage · Post by **ttf_slide advantage** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:51 pm

I decided to donate. I'll give him my old lawn mower and then he can earn the $ he needs to buy that new horn.

It will be on the curb

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:11 pm

I don't think anyone has posted a link to the page in question...

https://www.gofundme.com/5b4ac-new-trombone

Not comments, just an observations:
I notice that a lot of people are calling him a kid. He's young (at least from my POV), but I would not characterize him as a "kid". He's been playing trombone for fifteen years and started when he was 11.

He's in the Idaho Falls area, so paying gigs are going to be few and far between. The Idaho Falls Symphony that he mentions is a volunteer organization.

ttf_slide advantage · Post by **ttf_slide advantage** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:39 pm

I hate to sound insensitive to his dilemma, but to me it doesn't matter.

ttf_Wasatch Oz · Post by **ttf_Wasatch Oz** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:14 pm

Ah! Interesting.

About 3 months ago, I attended a trombone master class with Mark Davidson (principal trombone with the Utah Symphony), hosted by Donn Schaefer who is the trombone professor and Brass Area Head at the University of Utah. The set up here is that Mark and Donn are both Shires performers and Shires was a sponsor of the event. There was fair amount of Shires marketing going on, which is fine.

The guy who is doing this GoFund me was there and it appears to me that he liked the Shires marketing (again, that's okay).

But something stood out to me; During the master class, someone accidentally kicked an empty Bach trombone case that was up on stage and I remember this guy trying to be funny, and he said; "Oh, don't worry, it's just a Bach". I don't remember anybody lanughing. But as a "Bach performer" myself (HA!), I did take notice of his comment.

ttf_sirisobhakya · Post by **ttf_sirisobhakya** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:46 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Jan 30, 2018, 02:11PMI don't think anyone has posted a link to the page in question...

https://www.gofundme.com/5b4ac-new-trombone

Not comments, just an observations:
I notice that a lot of people are calling him a kid. He's young (at least from my POV), but I would not characterize him as a "kid". He's been playing trombone for fifteen years and started when he was 11.

He's in the Idaho Falls area, so paying gigs are going to be few and far between. The Idaho Falls Symphony that he mentions is a volunteer organization.

So, he is now 26 and he can't earn the money himself?

No paying gigs, for me, is not a sound argument. Many, if not most, if not all, community bands here in Japan play for free. The musicians sometimes even have to pay membership fee; the band I am in calls for $25 a month. But the majority of the musicians buy their own instruments by themselves (some do borrow/rent, and some do use the ones their parents bought them long ago). And both new and used instruments are expensive here.

I'm sorry if I sound rude to or not respecting the person in question, but no matter how I look at the story, it still is ridiculous. He already has a high-end horn (arguably more expensive than every trombone in my section, including my bass). He is in working age. Yet he begs. If he has any urgent monetary issue, either he got triplets, his relative is sick of terminal cancer, or his house is going to be claimed, just don't buy a new horn yet!

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:15 pm

When I was a kid in the 1970s I drove 75 miles each way for lessons. On the Canadian Prairie...think of Siberia, but more empty....Siberia had a tree every 500 miles. ( Or "versts" if you read a lot of Chekov.....)
I read lots of the Russians. I had to laugh.. anything from Siberia in 1880 was exactly like my life in Canada in 1980.

Yup. Flip burgers... like I did.
Sometimes, it just feels so good that there will never be a gig for the greedy in the world. You have to feel bad for those who don't get a chance to play, but sometimes.........meh..........

ttf_sirisobhakya · Post by **ttf_sirisobhakya** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:18 pm

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Jan 30, 2018, 05:15PMWhen I was a kid in the 1970s I drove 75 miles each way for lessons. On the Canadian Prairie...think of Siberia, but more empty....Siberia had a tree every 500 miles. ( Or "versts" if you read a lot of Chekov.....)
I read lots of the Russians. I had to laugh.. anything from Siberia in 1880 was exactly like my life in Canada in 1980.

Yup. Flip burgers... like I did.
Sometimes, it just feels so good that there will never be a gig for the greedy in the world. You have to feel bad for those who don't get a chance to play, but sometimes.........meh..........

Does Canadian praerie has Gulags like Siberia?

Sorry, wrong era.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:36 pm

I imagine the young man - if he has eyes on this thread - is extremely appreciative of all the free publicity! I know I sure would be!

...Geezer