Using GoFund me to finance a new horn

[ttf_Blowero]

Quote from: Dan Hine on Feb 01, 2018, 05:15PMExcept for the fact that you’re completely ignoring the social connotations that are part of our language.  And also making assumptions about what I meant.  That’s what you do...I ought to be used to it by now.  But whatever.  I don’t like you so don’t really care what you think.
Since when is reading the actual words you wrote an "assumption"?

You're a jerk, and I'm not the only one here who thinks so.

[ttf_Stan]

Quote from: Ellrod on Feb 01, 2018, 06:23PMWell, that Bach 42 is a piece of shite and the valves are trash. All Bach 42s are. People are laughing at you.

I’m happy to take it off your hands and save you further humiliation.

That offer is open to the rest of you as well. I’m happy to take your crap Bach 42s. Sorry, can’t help with the shipping, but aren’t I doing enough?

And bologna that Jay Friedman hand-picked those pieces. He still hand picked pieces and ended up with a BACH 42, as opposed to ordering sight-unseen from a music store.  This kid isn’t asking for a plane ticket to Hopedale.  He’s asking for a pre-manufactured instrument from a local music store.

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: Blowero on Feb 01, 2018, 06:56PMSince when is reading the actual words you wrote an "assumption"?
You know what, in going back and reading it, you're right.  I did imply that the use of the word was incorrect

That being said, words are more than their definitions.  The context in which they are used matters.  So, while by the definition of the word, it was being used correctly (something I admitted in the previous post) I believe it's not necessarily being applied well here.  Plenty of people ask for things.  You'd be hard-pressed to find people who think "he often asks for things" and "he's a beggar" to mean exactly the same thing.


Quote from: Blowero on Feb 01, 2018, 06:56PMYou're a jerk, and I'm not the only one here who thinks so.

Something about rubber and glue...whatever dude.  I know I'm not a jerk and people who know me in real life will agree.  So, to be fair, maybe you aren't really all the choice words I have for you.   

[ttf_slide advantage]

Boys, boys.

Let's keep it civil. I don't want to lock the thread down....I am enjoying the discussion!

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: Greg Waits on Feb 01, 2018, 07:29PMBoys, boys.

Let's keep it civil. I don't want to lock the thread down....I am enjoying the discussion!



Apologies, Greg.

Sincerely,

The guy who more than one person thinks is a jerk

 

[ttf_slide advantage]

I'm not pointing fingers!

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: Greg Waits on Feb 01, 2018, 07:37PMI'm not pointing fingers!



You don't have to.  I will.  Sometimes I get easily riled up.  Mea culpa.

[ttf_Blowero]

Quote from: Greg Waits on Feb 01, 2018, 07:29PMBoys, boys.

Let's keep it civil. I don't want to lock the thread down....I am enjoying the discussion!



Look, Greg. It WAS civil until Dan made things personal (which he seems to have a habit of doing). I disagreed with his characterization of other people's comments (which I don't think is a crime), and he said, " I don’t like you so don’t really care what you think." That was completely uncalled for. So talk to HIM, not me.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

So ... nobody actually gave money to this guy, ... right?

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Yesterday at 06:16 AMSo ... nobody actually gave money to this guy, ... right?

Sixteen people have.  And, the good thing with GoFundMe vs Kickstarter (well, good depending on your POV) is that you don't have to meet your goal to keep the money.  So, if he sells his Bach he can probably get a used Shires.

[ttf_sonicsilver]

I agree that it's rude. Here's my reasoning.

Money represents value and we exchange it for goods and services. If someone asks me for $100 without offering me anything in return, that sets the value of the $100 bill at zero. It took me perhaps a day to earn that $100, so anyone asking me to give it away shows disrespect and selfish disregard for me and my life. Maybe I work in a difficult or dangerous job, or have other calls on my earnings: children, infirm parents. Anyone who askes me for money without offering anything in return, holds me in contempt: my time, effort and troubles are worthless to him.

I also agree that it's nonsense that he needs a very expensive new instrument. Even if his current horn is a dud, there are many good horns available second hand, right here on the forum. I bought an 88h from the classifieds for $1000 (from Ellrod actually) and a Wessex alto for a few hundred and recently won a job in a symphony orchestra using them. I economised very hard to afford them and went without other things that I wanted.

Regarding Urbie Green and Julian Priester's requests for funding, I also feel somewhat negative towards them. Of course, on a personal level, one feels sympathy for those in ill health or financial hardship. However, both these men had long and successful careers, with commensurate financial reward I assume. Knowing that they live in a society where nationalised medical insurance and pension provision is limited, they nevertheless chose not to provide privately for the eventualities they now ask for help with.

[ttf_Ellrod]

I was just reading the most recent 88H thread and got to thinking about an 88H I sold (I think I had acquired some Shires gear and couldn't see the purpose in having 2 .547 horns. Are you in Oz SS? I seem to recall shipping it to Adelaide. Or was this the one that I sent to Austria?)

I think you're a little harsh with respect to Urbie and Julian though. One, and maybe the only, clear fact from the US health care debate is that nearly no one can afford health care. That's why there are insurance schemes and gov't programs to spread the costs. And often the most serious medical conditions arise as you age, at a time when your earning capacity is almost completely eliminated. It's not like these guys can go out and play a few gigs. Maybe Urbie made some decent coin in his day (although I recall an interview with Jimmy Knepper who said his [Knepper's] house on Staten Island made more money over his career than he did), but I doubt JP made significant dough playing jazz trombone (anyone bought a copy of Love Love recently? I'd be surprised if JP saw more than $10 from Apple Music in the last decade). And his teaching in Seattle was not pensionable. 

[ttf_watermailonman]

Quote from: sonicsilver on Yesterday at 09:59 AMI agree that it's rude. Here's my reasoning.

Money represents value and we exchange it for goods and services. If someone asks me for $100 without offering me anything in return, that sets the value of the $100 bill at zero. It took me perhaps a day to earn that $100, so anyone asking me to give it away shows disrespect and selfish disregard for me and my life. Maybe I work in a difficult or dangerous job, or have other calls on my earnings: children, infirm parents. Anyone who askes me for money without offering anything in return, holds me in contempt: my time, effort and troubles are worthless to him.

I also agree that it's nonsense that he needs a very expensive new instrument. Even if his current horn is a dud, there are many good horns available second hand, right here on the forum. I bought an 88h from the classifieds for $1000 (from Ellrod actually) and a Wessex alto for a few hundred and recently won a job in a symphony orchestra using them. I economised very hard to afford them and went without other things that I wanted.

Regarding Urbie Green and Julian Priester's requests for funding, I also feel somewhat negative towards them. Of course, on a personal level, one feels sympathy for those in ill health or financial hardship. However, both these men had long and successful careers, with commensurate financial reward I assume. Knowing that they live in a society where nationalised medical insurance and pension provision is limited, they nevertheless chose not to provide privately for the eventualities they now ask for help with.

I follow your thoughts here and agree that money can be translated to time, sweat and trouble. To ask sombody to give of their time, sweat and trouble is therfore the same as asking them for an amount of money. To give that to someone who allready lives in luxury just because he wants more luxury seems a waist of my resources. Why on earth should I do that?

When it comes to real needs as they may well be in case of old retired musicians or other people who actually are poor is a different matter. In Sweden we have at least a basic welfare to guarantee that poor people get help. Maybe you don't have that luxury in the U.S.

Even though we have social security here we are not without trouble. Unfortunately some people over here are not ready to be helped. It could be because of different reasons such as drugs, mental illnesses, a life filled with criminality or any other life crises that can be a hinder to be truly helped. They still get help from our welfare but of course it is not enough to make all troubles dissappear. We do pay a lot of taxes over here and a lot of this goes to public service and basic social security to help Swedes with poor conditions in need of food, shelter and health care. Until we became an EU country we had very few beggers and homeless people on the streets. The majority of beggers and homeless we now see are "tourists" mostly from Rumania. Our welfare is also under pressure from all immigrants who have fled here from the middle east. It is a challange to take care of all people who have come.

/Tom

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Quote from: sonicsilver on Yesterday at 09:59 AMI agree that it's rude. Here's my reasoning.

Money represents value and we exchange it for goods and services. If someone asks me for $100 without offering me anything in return, that sets the value of the $100 bill at zero. It took me perhaps a day to earn that $100, so anyone asking me to give it away shows disrespect and selfish disregard for me and my life. Maybe I work in a difficult or dangerous job, or have other calls on my earnings: children, infirm parents. Anyone who askes me for money without offering anything in return, holds me in contempt: my time, effort and troubles are worthless to him.

I also agree that it's nonsense that he needs a very expensive new instrument. Even if his current horn is a dud, there are many good horns available second hand, right here on the forum. I bought an 88h from the classifieds for $1000 (from Ellrod actually) and a Wessex alto for a few hundred and recently won a job in a symphony orchestra using them. I economised very hard to afford them and went without other things that I wanted.

Regarding Urbie Green and Julian Priester's requests for funding, I also feel somewhat negative towards them. Of course, on a personal level, one feels sympathy for those in ill health or financial hardship. However, both these men had long and successful careers, with commensurate financial reward I assume. Knowing that they live in a society where nationalised medical insurance and pension provision is limited, they nevertheless chose not to provide privately for the eventualities they now ask for help with.

Could this have been the bush I was beating around?

[ttf_Matt K]

QuoteI also agree that it's nonsense that he needs a very expensive new instrument. Even if his current horn is a dud, there are many good horns available second hand, right here on the forum. I bought an 88h from the classifieds for $1000 (from Ellrod actually) and a Wessex alto for a few hundred and recently won a job in a symphony orchestra using them. I economised very hard to afford them and went without other things that I wanted.

Is your orchestra fully funded by ticket sales?

[ttf_robcat2075]

In olden times a talented but poor artist would find a rich noble or robber baron to sponsor their career.

This modern crowd-sourcing of the funds is probably no different ethically, with the advantage that it is harder for the donors to claim a right to nookie on the side.

[ttf_sonicsilver]

Quote from: Ellrod on Yesterday at 10:25 AMI was just reading the most recent 88H thread and got to thinking about an 88H I sold (I think I had acquired some Shires gear and couldn't see the purpose in having 2 .547 horns. Are you in Oz SS? I seem to recall shipping it to Adelaide. Or was this the one that I sent to Austria?)

Yes, that's the one. It's a really nice instrument.

I know I seem callous about Urbie and JP, but I assure you I'm not. If I spent my resources on a certain standard of living through my good years and chose not to make provision for a rainy day, and then become ill, it would be my own damn fault and I'd take it on the chin. I certainly won't take money from someone else's children's college fund. And I don't expect doctors to work for nothing (see reasoning above about respecting the value of someone's time and effort).

[ttf_sonicsilver]

Quote from: robcat2075 on Yesterday at 11:41 AMIn olden times a talented but poor artist would find a rich noble or robber baron to sponsor their career.

This modern crowd-sourcing of the funds is probably no different ethically, with the advantage that it is harder for the donors to claim a right to nookie on the side.

I hear that there are *ahem* donation websites for that too.



Quote from: Matt K on Yesterday at 11:13 AMIs your orchestra fully funded by ticket sales?

I don't know and in any case, the contract doesn't allow me to discuss it.

[ttf_Blowero]

Quote from: sonicsilver on Yesterday at 09:59 AM
I also agree that it's nonsense that he needs a very expensive new instrument. Even if his current horn is a dud, there are many good horns available second hand, right here on the forum.
And don't forget that the horn he currently owns is worth $1500-2500 depending whether it actually does need valve work, yet he is asking for the entire cost of a brand new Shires. Why does he need to keep 2 trombones of the same bore size?
QuoteRegarding Urbie Green and Julian Priester's requests for funding, I also feel somewhat negative towards them. Of course, on a personal level, one feels sympathy for those in ill health or financial hardship. However, both these men had long and successful careers, with commensurate financial reward I assume.
I wouldn't assume that. Details aren't given for Urbie Green, but there is a link to an article on the Julian Priester page which suggests he worked hard as a player and then as a teacher, but simply wasn't paid well and didn't receive any pension for his efforts. Sure, he had choices in life and obviously didn't make all the right ones, but I'm still sympathetic.

A musician I have worked with before recently did a crowdfunding page when he developed a medical problem that prevented him from playing for awhile. I donated to it. I guess the difference for me is what is being asked for. If he had said he needed money because he wanted a shiny brand new expensive horn, I doubt I would have given him anything. Perhaps that's not a consistent attitude for me to have, but it's how I feel.

[ttf_Bimmerman]

Quote from: sonicsilver on Yesterday at 09:59 AMI agree that it's rude. Here's my reasoning.

Money represents value and we exchange it for goods and services. If someone asks me for $100 without offering me anything in return, that sets the value of the $100 bill at zero. It took me perhaps a day to earn that $100, so anyone asking me to give it away shows disrespect and selfish disregard for me and my life. Maybe I work in a difficult or dangerous job, or have other calls on my earnings: children, infirm parents. Anyone who askes me for money without offering anything in return, holds me in contempt: my time, effort and troubles are worthless to him.

I also agree that it's nonsense that he needs a very expensive new instrument. Even if his current horn is a dud, there are many good horns available second hand, right here on the forum. I bought an 88h from the classifieds for $1000 (from Ellrod actually) and a Wessex alto for a few hundred and recently won a job in a symphony orchestra using them. I economised very hard to afford them and went without other things that I wanted.

Regarding Urbie Green and Julian Priester's requests for funding, I also feel somewhat negative towards them. Of course, on a personal level, one feels sympathy for those in ill health or financial hardship. However, both these men had long and successful careers, with commensurate financial reward I assume. Knowing that they live in a society where nationalised medical insurance and pension provision is limited, they nevertheless chose not to provide privately for the eventualities they now ask for help with.

I don't agree with crowdfunding an instrument, that just seems tacky to me. Similar to crowdfunding a car or any necessary tool for an individual.

Crowdfunding albums, or services, or....I guess 'items' to then provide to your backers, I think is a great idea.

Regarding Urbie (and others') crowdfunding for medical expenses (i.e. not elective stuff), I actually don't have a problem with that. There are any number of ways one could get into the situation where they can't afford to pay for medical treatment, especially for an elderly person only a few years removed from the 2008-2009 economic disaster. Without a reliable way to earn more money in old age, and with the recession's fallout (house foreclosure, savings/investments wiped out within a few weeks, etc).....how else would or could someone pay for their treatment?

Saying 'well you should've saved more' is great, Captain Hindsight, but that doesn't help much. It's also offensive to those who did save and invest and lost it all, in their old age, due to economic factors way outside of their control. I at 30 am able to recover from losing everything. I would not be able to at 80. I don't know whether this is one factor in Urbie's crowdfunding efforts, but I know enough people that this DID happen to to be sympathetic and not judgmental about it.

[ttf_robcat2075]

I would say that Urbie Green having expense trouble... at the age of ninety-two(!)... is neither a sign of his financial foolishness nor an indictment of our general retirement system.

Living to ninety-two is still a rare and unlikely outcome for anyone to find themselves in. It is unrealistic for any but maybe the top 5% of earners to take money away from their current needs on the outside chance that one might have to pay for elaborate age-related bills past 90.

My father's round-the-clock care at the end of his life (100) was probably costing $75-100K per year. Most people could not save for that if they wanted to.  It's more money than they will ever earn.

The only way to pay for that for everyone who might need it is to raise it from taxes on people who have more money than they will ever need. Our current social climate won't allow that.

[ttf_Ellrod]

Quote from: Blowero on Yesterday at 12:20 PM... there is a link to an article on the Julian Priester page which suggests he worked hard as a player and then as a teacher, but simply wasn't paid well and didn't receive any pension for his efforts. Sure, he had choices in life and obviously didn't make all the right ones, but I'm still sympathetic.


I don't know Mr. Priester, nor am I familiar with his life, but it looks like he chose to make a living as a jazz trombonist. That simply didn't pay enough (or maybe he didn't get points on the Herbie Hancock albums) to allow him to accumulate enough money to fund his old age (in an increasingly expensive city).

[ttf_mwpfoot]

Quote from: Bimmerman on Yesterday at 12:26 PMSaying 'well you should've saved more' is great, Captain Hindsight, but that doesn't help much. It's also offensive to those who did save and invest and lost it all, in their old age, due to economic factors way outside of their control. I at 30 am able to recover from losing everything. I would not be able to at 80. I don't know whether this is one factor in Urbie's crowdfunding efforts, but I know enough people that this DID happen to to be sympathetic and not judgmental about it.

The system is calibrated to take the last little bit you've got upon the exhale of your final breath.

God help you if you don't have a typical health arc ... beat cancer in your 50's and your prize is 30 long years of financial hardship in this great nation.

 

[ttf_sonicsilver]

Quote from: robcat2075 on Yesterday at 01:51 PMI would say that Urbie Green having expense trouble... at the age of ninety-two(!)... is neither a sign of his financial foolishness nor an indictment of our general retirement system.

Living to ninety-two is still a rare and unlikely outcome for anyone to find themselves in. It is unrealistic for any but maybe the top 5% of earners to take money away from their current needs on the outside chance that one might have to pay for elaborate age-related bills past 90.

My father's round-the-clock care at the end of his life (100) was probably costing $75-100K per year. Most people could not save for that if they wanted to.  It's more money than they will ever earn.

The only way to pay for that for everyone who might need it is to raise it from taxes on people who have more money than they will ever need. Our current social climate won't allow that.

I agree with you that almost no one can save to pay cash for extensive medical treatment. I don't agree with the sentence in bold. Also, it's not correct that a national health system needs to raise money for everyone who might need it. Governments, and in the private sector actuaries and insurers, try to predict how many people will actually need treatment, and make tax plans accordingly. Some people die young, or after a short illness. They are less costly.

But my main point is that there are just three ways of paying for a health system. 1) National insurance through taxes, 2) private insurance through a commercial policy and 3) cash payment as and when necessary. Some countries have a mixture of two or all three, Japan and Canada for example. There is of course 4) a large cadre of medical professionals charitably donates their skill to treat the needy... but Médecins Sans Frontières are quite busy elsewhere. Most of Europe manages to organise 1) to a very good standard, although it is a significant challenge, and there is a functioning private health insurance industry in most developed countries for 2).

If one knows, as in the USA, that there may one day be a lack of publicly-funded medical care AND one has modest but adequate means, why would one not take out insurance against the possibility? Or indeed, save into a private pension fund. I get the impression that Americans don't want to be taxed for these things, but aren't willing to take responsibility for the expense privately (a little like our friend who wants a new - or in fact, an additional - trombone but doesn't actually want to pay anything for it or put money aside until he can buy it himself). Or is it that these are usually provided by an employer and the market doesn't serve the individual customer, hence the problems for jobless and self-employed?

[ttf_Bimmerman]

Quote from: sonicsilver on Yesterday at 03:20 PMIf one knows, as in the USA, that there may one day be a lack of publicly-funded medical care AND one has modest but adequate means, why would one not take out insurance against the possibility? Or indeed, save into a private pension fund. I get the impression that Americans don't want to be taxed for these things, but aren't willing to take responsibility for the expense privately (a little like our friend who wants a new - or in fact, an additional - trombone but doesn't actually want to pay anything for it or put money aside until he can buy it himself). Or is it that these are usually provided by an employer and the market doesn't serve the individual customer, hence the problems for jobless and self-employed?

Setting aside the taxation politics, the big reason is that private health insurance in the US is obscenely expensive if it is not subsidized by an employer. Think $500-1000/person/month, easily, for a relatively healthy young person depending on coverage, and multiplied for a family. As you get older and start using medical services, your coverage costs go up significantly.

Let's say you're earning $4k/month, so $48k/year, without a family. If you're in the SF Bay Area, or NYC, where there are more jobs for musicians than the Midwest, rent is on average $1500/month, taxes on your income will be on the order of $1k or so, meaning you have, on average, $1.5k per month to cover utilities, food, health insurance, transportation, other bills, etc. When healthcare alone will cost $1k, and you only receive it while you are able to pay for it....you can probably see where I'm going with this.

As for private pension plans, they exist, but if you are living paycheck to paycheck already it's not really possible to make use of them.

Most larger companies subsidize healthcare for their employees, but most of those employees aren't gigging musicians.

[ttf_sirisobhakya]

Quote from: Matt K on Yesterday at 11:13 AMIs your orchestra fully funded by ticket sales?

I believe no orchestra asks for the money online without playing for the donators in return. An orchestra normally recieves fund from the city or audience, in return providing them entertainment and a component needed in ceremonies.

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

Quote from: Bimmerman on Yesterday at 03:49 PMWhen healthcare alone will cost $1k..
It's the insurance that costs $1k.  You still have to pay for your own healthcare in addition to that, up to the deductible.

Just to be clear...

Sorry, off-topic.  Sort of.

[ttf_robcat2075]

 I don't agree with the sentence in bold. Also, it's not correct that a national health system needs to raise money for everyone who might need it. Governments, and in the private sector actuaries and insurers, try to predict how many people will actually need treatment, and make tax plans accordingly. Some people die young, or after a short illness. They are less costly.
[/quote]

When I say "might need it" I pretty much mean what you mean... the predictable fraction of people who will live to that age and be sick.

They have more expenses than the money that has been raised for their care and the only remedy is to raise more money from someone who has it... if it is goal to care for these people.


Consider Urbie Green.  I have no doubt that he has qualified for and is receiving Social Security and if he isn't also qualified for Medicare then he must have some avenue to Medicaid.

But obviously they are not covering everything or he wouldn't need to be raising money. If we want them to cover the extra problems of an Urbie Green, they need to be funded with more money than they are.

I'm not opposed to a more substantial payroll taxes during person's working career but it's politically impossible because no one of working age wants to chip in for something 50 years in advance that they might not even need.

[ttf_Blowero]

Quote from: sonicsilver on Yesterday at 03:20 PMI get the impression that [s]Americans[/s] Republicans don't want to be taxed for these things, but aren't willing to take responsibility for the expense privately 
Fixed that for you. 

[ttf_Bimmerman]

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Yesterday at 07:39 PMIt's the insurance that costs $1k.  You still have to pay for your own healthcare in addition to that, up to the deductible.

Just to be clear...

Sorry, off-topic.  Sort of.

Yep, you're absolutely right.

Which makes it so much worse.

[ttf_Bimmerman]

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Yesterday at 07:39 PMIt's the insurance that costs $1k.  You still have to pay for your own healthcare in addition to that, up to the deductible.

Just to be clear...

Sorry, off-topic.  Sort of.

Yep, you're absolutely right.

Which makes it so much worse.