Hi all,
I'm mostly a tenor player (amateur level), who out of curiosity bought an alto (cheap Amati) and a bass trombone (Yamaha 421, iirc) a while back. I find them quite fun to play from time to time, but my tone is not very good, especially on the alto. However, in my not so long experience, I think playing these trombones may have helped my tenor in different ways. I think playing the bass trombone helps my air flow when returning to the tenor, and playing the alto has increased my upper range somewhat on the tenor. OTOH this may be just psychological. Also, after playing only bass or alto for some time, it takes a couple of days to get my embouchure set for tenor again.
What's your take on this? Is it recommended to try tripling on bass/tenor/alto? Can it be done, or even beneficial, or is it more likely to destroy my embouchure on all three?
Also, what mouthpieces would you recommend for such a situation? I've usually played on a Yamaha 48 on tenor, Yamaha 59 (I think) on bass and something 21 on alto (IIRC). I've also recently tried using a 48 on alto as well, which I find much easier to play on, since it's what I'm used to on tenor. Would it be possible to use the same size on all three instruments? Or would it be better to match two of them (like I did) and keep the third distinct? Or just keep all three distinct?
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
-
ttf_henrikbe
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
-
ttf_BGuttman
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
It can be done, but you have to remember that they are three different instruments (even though each has a slide) and you need to practice each one consistently to be able to switch back and forth.
What mouthpiece? Some can switch different sizes with no problems. I am not so gifted. I use the same rim size on alto and tenor but the alto mouthpiece is shallower. In my case, a Wick 4BL on tenor and a Bach 4C on alto.
For bass I don't like too big a mouthpiece unless I have a lot of face time on it. I generally use a 1 1/2 G size although some prefer a 2G sie.
What mouthpiece? Some can switch different sizes with no problems. I am not so gifted. I use the same rim size on alto and tenor but the alto mouthpiece is shallower. In my case, a Wick 4BL on tenor and a Bach 4C on alto.
For bass I don't like too big a mouthpiece unless I have a lot of face time on it. I generally use a 1 1/2 G size although some prefer a 2G sie.
-
ttf_Le.Tromboniste
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
There are very good players who do it, although you probably can't expect to be equally good on all three and as good on all three as the best players of each. In the early music world, you're also kind of expected as a trombone player to play slide trumpet. Tenor cornetto is not uncommon, and some of us also do ophicleide and/or serpent. I don't know that doubling helps or hurts. I think if you believe it will hurt your playing, then it will.
The key thing is to have a clear, distinct sound concept on each instrument, whatever it is. You can kind of get away with playing bass like you play tenor or vice versa, but that probably won't be successful. A lot of people try to play alto like they play tenor, and they usually get the same sound they'd get on tenor but less good.
As for the mouthpiece issue, that varies a lot and I don't think there is a single valid answer. Some people get the best result with having the same rim on all their horns, some people get the best result having very different mouthpieces for each horn. I tried both approaches - the first didn't work for me, and the second does, so that's what I do (and quite to the extreme, quite large bass pieces, very small alto pieces). I feel it helps me approach each instrument as a different one and get a clear and distinct concept, and make the instrument sound at its best. I wouldn't ever claim that it's a better approach though, as I know very good players who get their best results with the extreme opposite approach or having precisely the same rim size (sometimes literally the same rim), and most players I know are somewhere in between. I would encourage keeping an open mind and trying each approach, and choose for yourself what feels and sounds better.
The key thing is to have a clear, distinct sound concept on each instrument, whatever it is. You can kind of get away with playing bass like you play tenor or vice versa, but that probably won't be successful. A lot of people try to play alto like they play tenor, and they usually get the same sound they'd get on tenor but less good.
As for the mouthpiece issue, that varies a lot and I don't think there is a single valid answer. Some people get the best result with having the same rim on all their horns, some people get the best result having very different mouthpieces for each horn. I tried both approaches - the first didn't work for me, and the second does, so that's what I do (and quite to the extreme, quite large bass pieces, very small alto pieces). I feel it helps me approach each instrument as a different one and get a clear and distinct concept, and make the instrument sound at its best. I wouldn't ever claim that it's a better approach though, as I know very good players who get their best results with the extreme opposite approach or having precisely the same rim size (sometimes literally the same rim), and most players I know are somewhere in between. I would encourage keeping an open mind and trying each approach, and choose for yourself what feels and sounds better.
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Ask Charles Vernon about it.
-
ttf_Matt K
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
It depends on what type of embouchure you have. I work best with a rim on the large size for tenor and alto (Elliott 104N) and towards the larger side on bass as well (ca. 114). Other players do well on the opposite side of the spectrum. I've seen smaller than 15Cs played very well on alto and 2Gs played professionally on bass.
In general I'd recommend getting good on one first and then branching out in the same way I'd recommend getting one good horn rather than 3 okay horns BUT it depends on what your needs are and your aspirations. Alto is very rarely called for and there are even professionals in the orchestral world who will use a larger horn, or even just their large bore horneven when its stylistically called for to not be done on alto. However, I will admit it is fun to play.
Bear in mind that if you play in a group, it isn't just your fun though! And the better you are at being a musician the better groups you can get into and the more fun others are having, etc. It's somewhat symbiotic. So balance your efforts so that you can maximize that and I think you'll be on the right track.
So a few things specifically: 21 is super small, if it is a Bach 21 at least. Like, really really small. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone play something that small ever. If it is a 21 (and not a 12), it's about as close to a trumpet mouthpiece as it is a bass trombone mouthpiece. That's a huge spread. And it isn't unusual or even uncommon for someone to have a different embouchure on mouthpieces that are that different. I definitely do on trumpet for sure.
I too an am amateur now, though I have a degree in music. For a few years, I played everything on my Elliott 104N from alto to bass and it did work fine. As I started to do more bass work, I started to need something larger though. If your embouchure is like mine, you would probably benefit from a rim of that size and sticking with it until you have a better grasp of what you are doing with it. I can't highly recommend reaching out to Doug and seeing what he has to say. His advice has undoubtedly saved me a lot of unnecessary work.
In general I'd recommend getting good on one first and then branching out in the same way I'd recommend getting one good horn rather than 3 okay horns BUT it depends on what your needs are and your aspirations. Alto is very rarely called for and there are even professionals in the orchestral world who will use a larger horn, or even just their large bore horneven when its stylistically called for to not be done on alto. However, I will admit it is fun to play.
Bear in mind that if you play in a group, it isn't just your fun though! And the better you are at being a musician the better groups you can get into and the more fun others are having, etc. It's somewhat symbiotic. So balance your efforts so that you can maximize that and I think you'll be on the right track.
So a few things specifically: 21 is super small, if it is a Bach 21 at least. Like, really really small. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone play something that small ever. If it is a 21 (and not a 12), it's about as close to a trumpet mouthpiece as it is a bass trombone mouthpiece. That's a huge spread. And it isn't unusual or even uncommon for someone to have a different embouchure on mouthpieces that are that different. I definitely do on trumpet for sure.
I too an am amateur now, though I have a degree in music. For a few years, I played everything on my Elliott 104N from alto to bass and it did work fine. As I started to do more bass work, I started to need something larger though. If your embouchure is like mine, you would probably benefit from a rim of that size and sticking with it until you have a better grasp of what you are doing with it. I can't highly recommend reaching out to Doug and seeing what he has to say. His advice has undoubtedly saved me a lot of unnecessary work.
-
ttf_BGuttman
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Maybe 21 is a King M-21, which is 12C sized.
-
ttf_trombonemetal
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:33 pm
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
I play all three. The other day I had a rehearsal where I doubled alto and bass (but not tenor) in a wind ensemble setting (a first for me!).
For a long time I tried the one rim for everything approach but that wound up not being the best for me. On alto I use a brass ark 11c and Griego oft alto, on tenor a Griego Alessi 5c, and on bass a Griego .75 and Dave Taylor 1. Youll notice these are all right in the middle of normal for their respective instrument.
I have found that playing alto and bass has helped my tenor playing enormously (thats my primary horn).
For a long time I tried the one rim for everything approach but that wound up not being the best for me. On alto I use a brass ark 11c and Griego oft alto, on tenor a Griego Alessi 5c, and on bass a Griego .75 and Dave Taylor 1. Youll notice these are all right in the middle of normal for their respective instrument.
I have found that playing alto and bass has helped my tenor playing enormously (thats my primary horn).
-
ttf_Le.Tromboniste
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Quote from: Matt K on Jan 23, 2018, 10:13AM
So a few things specifically: 21 is super small, if it is a Bach 21 at least. Like, really really small. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone play something that small ever. If it is a 21 (and not a 12), it's about as close to a trumpet mouthpiece as it is a bass trombone mouthpiece. That's a huge spread. And it isn't unusual or even uncommon for someone to have a different embouchure on mouthpieces that are that different. I definitely do on trumpet for sure.
Granted, I'm in the extreme minority on this, but I play on 22.5 mm mouthpieces on alto, which is well outside of the standard range of most if not all makers. About as far from a Bach 22C than the 22C is from a 6.5AL. And yes about halfway in-between a bass trombone and trumpet mouthpiece (which is not entirely illogical given the alto trombone itself is more or less halfway between a tenor/bass and trumpet in terms of length and bore size). It takes some adaptation and yes, somewhat of a different embouchure.
So a few things specifically: 21 is super small, if it is a Bach 21 at least. Like, really really small. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone play something that small ever. If it is a 21 (and not a 12), it's about as close to a trumpet mouthpiece as it is a bass trombone mouthpiece. That's a huge spread. And it isn't unusual or even uncommon for someone to have a different embouchure on mouthpieces that are that different. I definitely do on trumpet for sure.
Granted, I'm in the extreme minority on this, but I play on 22.5 mm mouthpieces on alto, which is well outside of the standard range of most if not all makers. About as far from a Bach 22C than the 22C is from a 6.5AL. And yes about halfway in-between a bass trombone and trumpet mouthpiece (which is not entirely illogical given the alto trombone itself is more or less halfway between a tenor/bass and trumpet in terms of length and bore size). It takes some adaptation and yes, somewhat of a different embouchure.
-
ttf_watermailonman
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:36 pm
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
You will know if/when you are ready to double. My recommendation is to learn to play one mouthpiece first. You need a well developed embouchure in the first place before you can successfully switch between different rims.
For several years - since 1980 - I own an alto but could not play it very well. I tried to double but the result was I had no strength or sound on the alto. I gave up and put the alto in the box.
1984 after a complete change of embouchure I went to music college for four years. I could still not double efficiently. I had no strength nor sound on the alto mouthpiece. After graduate my embouchure began to settle and I picked up the alto again. I played the same rim on both and it begun to work. As my embouchure got stronger on the tenor I noticed the switch was easier. I bought my first bass trombone 1989 and began to switch more regularly.
Now 2018 the switch between different mouthpieces works with no problem. I can play most rims as long as the shape/edge of the rims are the same. As long as the contour is comfortable the size of the rims do not matter.
My point is it can be done but I do think you should wait until your embouchure is strong enough. Your embouchure will probaly suffer when you start to experiment with this, until you accept that you need to approach ALL trombones including its mouthpiece differently. That goes for different sizes of trombones as alto, tenor and bass but also as every size of instrument vary between brand, model and year and even vary between trombones with the same specification. You need a strong embouchure and you need to practice all trombones you want to master.
/Tom
For several years - since 1980 - I own an alto but could not play it very well. I tried to double but the result was I had no strength or sound on the alto. I gave up and put the alto in the box.
1984 after a complete change of embouchure I went to music college for four years. I could still not double efficiently. I had no strength nor sound on the alto mouthpiece. After graduate my embouchure began to settle and I picked up the alto again. I played the same rim on both and it begun to work. As my embouchure got stronger on the tenor I noticed the switch was easier. I bought my first bass trombone 1989 and began to switch more regularly.
Now 2018 the switch between different mouthpieces works with no problem. I can play most rims as long as the shape/edge of the rims are the same. As long as the contour is comfortable the size of the rims do not matter.
My point is it can be done but I do think you should wait until your embouchure is strong enough. Your embouchure will probaly suffer when you start to experiment with this, until you accept that you need to approach ALL trombones including its mouthpiece differently. That goes for different sizes of trombones as alto, tenor and bass but also as every size of instrument vary between brand, model and year and even vary between trombones with the same specification. You need a strong embouchure and you need to practice all trombones you want to master.
/Tom
-
ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
I agree with Watermelon.
Dont give up! Practice more! I play tenor and bass and I have for many years, who knows if Im even doing that right
Dont give up! Practice more! I play tenor and bass and I have for many years, who knows if Im even doing that right
-
ttf_Matt K
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jan 23, 2018, 11:54AMGranted, I'm in the extreme minority on this, but I play on 22.5 mm mouthpieces on alto, which is well outside of the standard range of most if not all makers. About as far from a Bach 22C than the 22C is from a 6.5AL. And yes about halfway in-between a bass trombone and trumpet mouthpiece (which is not entirely illogical given the alto trombone itself is more or less halfway between a tenor/bass and trumpet in terms of length and bore size). It takes some adaptation and yes, somewhat of a different embouchure.
It occurs to me that I did not finish that as completely as I had hoped. I meant to say that it isn't inherently bad or that it necessarily is a different embouchure for someone but rather that if one is playing 3 sizes and they get confused switching between them it may well be that the embochures are different for them and they are not adequately adjusting. E.g. If you are a higher placement on trombone that doesn't necessarily mean you will be on trumpet etc. But that isn't something that is immediately evident or even consistently true from player to player.
So the OP might do well on the point that I did flesh out (as I have the most experience with that path) - by using a single rim or maybe two rims until they are used to those and then switching. The other possibility is realizing that they need perhaps two or three embouchures for the sizes they are playing and consciously switch between those sizes instead of trying to use the wrong setup for 2/3 of their combinations. And I say that only because it sounds like it isn't working per se. That advice would very much be different if, for example, a student came in to my studio and they sounded great on all three sizes right off the bat and didn't have any complaints about unusual sensations.
Speaking of sensations, bear in mind too that the alto and bass have very different sized bells and the alto in particular even a different length from your ear. That really threw me off when I was playing, especially bass at first, but when I recorded it sounded fine. The more you do it, the more you'll get used to that sensation so don't make the assumption that if you're doing X differently that it's working because it may well be that you are just getting more familiar with the feedback you are getting.
Easy to see why JJ Johnson referred to the instrument as a beast to be tamed!
It occurs to me that I did not finish that as completely as I had hoped. I meant to say that it isn't inherently bad or that it necessarily is a different embouchure for someone but rather that if one is playing 3 sizes and they get confused switching between them it may well be that the embochures are different for them and they are not adequately adjusting. E.g. If you are a higher placement on trombone that doesn't necessarily mean you will be on trumpet etc. But that isn't something that is immediately evident or even consistently true from player to player.
So the OP might do well on the point that I did flesh out (as I have the most experience with that path) - by using a single rim or maybe two rims until they are used to those and then switching. The other possibility is realizing that they need perhaps two or three embouchures for the sizes they are playing and consciously switch between those sizes instead of trying to use the wrong setup for 2/3 of their combinations. And I say that only because it sounds like it isn't working per se. That advice would very much be different if, for example, a student came in to my studio and they sounded great on all three sizes right off the bat and didn't have any complaints about unusual sensations.
Speaking of sensations, bear in mind too that the alto and bass have very different sized bells and the alto in particular even a different length from your ear. That really threw me off when I was playing, especially bass at first, but when I recorded it sounded fine. The more you do it, the more you'll get used to that sensation so don't make the assumption that if you're doing X differently that it's working because it may well be that you are just getting more familiar with the feedback you are getting.
Easy to see why JJ Johnson referred to the instrument as a beast to be tamed!
-
ttf_watermailonman
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:36 pm
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
I want to add to my previous post that to approach the instruments differently has nothing to do with thinking differently on the technical issue "lips". I aim for a sound and then I just concentrate to play the (any) instrument efficiently. If I need something technical to help me find the approach then I think "air" and "control of resonance" because this is where the instruments differ.
Now when switching works for me I never feel awkward in the contact lips/mouthpiece. If I felt something to be awkward there, then I know that switch does not work. Every mouthpiece I choose must be comfortable so I can concentrate only on my playing and not concentrate on what my lips are doing.
The right approach comes whith the right sound. The right sound comes with the right approach. They go hand in hand but I prefer to go by sound.
/Tom
Now when switching works for me I never feel awkward in the contact lips/mouthpiece. If I felt something to be awkward there, then I know that switch does not work. Every mouthpiece I choose must be comfortable so I can concentrate only on my playing and not concentrate on what my lips are doing.
The right approach comes whith the right sound. The right sound comes with the right approach. They go hand in hand but I prefer to go by sound.
/Tom
-
ttf_henrikbe
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Quote from: Matt K on Jan 23, 2018, 10:13AMSo a few things specifically: 21 is super small, if it is a Bach 21 at least. Like, really really small. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone play something that small ever. If it is a 21 (and not a 12), it's about as close to a trumpet mouthpiece as it is a bass trombone mouthpiece. That's a huge spread. And it isn't unusual or even uncommon for someone to have a different embouchure on mouthpieces that are that different. I definitely do on trumpet for sure.
I don't know much about the mouthpiece, other than that it has the text "21 c" on it, and nothing else. It certainly doesn't look anything like a trumpet mouthpiece. If I see it alone, and not next to my 48, I might not even be able to tell for sure if it's my 21 mp or my 48 mp. On the lips I can feel the difference immediately, though.
I don't know much about the mouthpiece, other than that it has the text "21 c" on it, and nothing else. It certainly doesn't look anything like a trumpet mouthpiece. If I see it alone, and not next to my 48, I might not even be able to tell for sure if it's my 21 mp or my 48 mp. On the lips I can feel the difference immediately, though.
-
ttf_Matt K
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Quote from: henrikbe on Jan 24, 2018, 04:18AMI don't know much about the mouthpiece, other than that it has the text "21 c" on it, and nothing else. It certainly doesn't look anything like a trumpet mouthpiece. If I see it alone, and not next to my 48, I might not even be able to tell for sure if it's my 21 mp or my 48 mp. On the lips I can feel the difference immediately, though.
Bruce might be right. Coudl be a generic mouthpiece too in which case you would also need to be careful if it's nickel plated instead of gold. There's nothing in herently wrong about using the 48 on the alto. Although the overtones might feel odd compared to a shank specifically for alto. I don't know about Amati horns, but some altos have a different receiver from a typical small bore tenor that makes the insertion depth of the mouhtpiece different. Doug Elliott has a backbore for altos as well as two variations on their exterior to make sure they are inserted correctly (ALTO and ALTO S) though other shapes exist I'm sure for all the weird variations of receiver that have been produced over the years. Others also make ones specifically for alto as well but I'm honestly just less familiar with those offerings. People have used Bach and other pieces that weren't specifically designed for alto (again, 15C being the smallest that I've seen) though several of them that I've seen had the shank altered to specifically fit the alto.
In short, part of the reason it feels different may also be that the overtones aren't lining up very well.
Another common procedure for alto trombones from China is to swap out the leadpipe. Might not be worth it in your case. Depends on what your long term goals are for alto. It's fun but not necessary and it might make more sense to dedicate time to tenor and bass to get more gigs and then introduce alto as you get more comfortable. Or not! I love playing alto.
Bruce might be right. Coudl be a generic mouthpiece too in which case you would also need to be careful if it's nickel plated instead of gold. There's nothing in herently wrong about using the 48 on the alto. Although the overtones might feel odd compared to a shank specifically for alto. I don't know about Amati horns, but some altos have a different receiver from a typical small bore tenor that makes the insertion depth of the mouhtpiece different. Doug Elliott has a backbore for altos as well as two variations on their exterior to make sure they are inserted correctly (ALTO and ALTO S) though other shapes exist I'm sure for all the weird variations of receiver that have been produced over the years. Others also make ones specifically for alto as well but I'm honestly just less familiar with those offerings. People have used Bach and other pieces that weren't specifically designed for alto (again, 15C being the smallest that I've seen) though several of them that I've seen had the shank altered to specifically fit the alto.
In short, part of the reason it feels different may also be that the overtones aren't lining up very well.
Another common procedure for alto trombones from China is to swap out the leadpipe. Might not be worth it in your case. Depends on what your long term goals are for alto. It's fun but not necessary and it might make more sense to dedicate time to tenor and bass to get more gigs and then introduce alto as you get more comfortable. Or not! I love playing alto.
-
ttf_vegasbound
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
3 instruments requires 3 times the practice time, if you do not have this time, or are prepared to put the work in you will play 3 instruments badly instead of one instrument well!
-
ttf_savio
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Some can do it, some can not. I think, like Tom told, you need to first develop strong chops on the tenor. Maybe first try two instruments, then three if it works. To find out there is only one answer, try it. As vegasbound told it needs a lot of work, but so do everything we want to achieve. And motivation.
Leif
Leif
-
ttf_timothy42b
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Quote from: vegasbound on Jan 24, 2018, 04:53AM3 instruments requires 3 times the practice time, if you do not have this time, or are prepared to put the work in you will play 3 instruments badly instead of one instrument well!
Hmm. What if you're at the point of diminishing returns on your main instrument? You've reached a certain level of accomplishment, enough to play adequately, but far short of the pro ranks, and you're not going further without huge investment of time. You may be up against the limits of your potential.
You can probably get to the same level on a couple more instruments.
Just thinking out loud.
Hmm. What if you're at the point of diminishing returns on your main instrument? You've reached a certain level of accomplishment, enough to play adequately, but far short of the pro ranks, and you're not going further without huge investment of time. You may be up against the limits of your potential.
You can probably get to the same level on a couple more instruments.
Just thinking out loud.
-
ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Will you get the opportunity to play all three in a meaningful setting? I am myself a amateur player doubling on tenor and base. I own an alto but the lack of a meaningful setting in which to play it has effectively killed my alto practice.
-
ttf_vegasbound
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Quote from: timothy42b on Jan 24, 2018, 05:46AMHmm. What if you're at the point of diminishing returns on your main instrument? You've reached a certain level of accomplishment, enough to play adequately, but far short of the pro ranks, and you're not going further without huge investment of time. You may be up against the limits of your potential.
You can probably get to the same level on a couple more instruments.
Just thinking out loud.
Only if you put in the requisite amount of time that got you to that point on your main instrument, otherwise you will be stealing time from your main instrument for little return other than saying you double,
You can probably get to the same level on a couple more instruments.
Just thinking out loud.
Only if you put in the requisite amount of time that got you to that point on your main instrument, otherwise you will be stealing time from your main instrument for little return other than saying you double,
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Quote from: vegasbound on Jan 24, 2018, 07:01AMOnly if you put in the requisite amount of time that got you to that point on your main instrument, otherwise you will be stealing time from your main instrument for little return other than saying you double,
I disagree with this, but only lately. Once I matched my alto mouthpiece with my tenor mouthpiece, and did some mods to my alto, I don't have to put much work into maintaining my chops on it.
This goes against what I used to think and wrote about a long time ago.
I disagree with this, but only lately. Once I matched my alto mouthpiece with my tenor mouthpiece, and did some mods to my alto, I don't have to put much work into maintaining my chops on it.
This goes against what I used to think and wrote about a long time ago.
-
ttf_Matt K
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
There is a compelling body of research that suggests doing different types of activities increases the long-term learnng you do. E.g. in math if you're doing two types of equations, alternate them isntead of doing a bunch of the same type at the same time. There's an interesting book that is sort of a meta study of those research called Make it Stick if it interests anyone.
I don't know how it translates to things like alto but to the extent that you are aware of differences and how to correct for them it might make learning faster. But when you don't it can be confusing. E.g. you have to balance it with the old monicker that practice makes permanent, not perfect. So if you're alternating doing two things incorrectly, it'll make you worse at both of those things. But if you're practicing two things 'correctly', it'll make you better at those things faster than if you were to bulk practice in one thing right and then bulk the other one right.
Or something along those lines.
I don't know how it translates to things like alto but to the extent that you are aware of differences and how to correct for them it might make learning faster. But when you don't it can be confusing. E.g. you have to balance it with the old monicker that practice makes permanent, not perfect. So if you're alternating doing two things incorrectly, it'll make you worse at both of those things. But if you're practicing two things 'correctly', it'll make you better at those things faster than if you were to bulk practice in one thing right and then bulk the other one right.
Or something along those lines.
-
ttf_anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Some nuggets of advice from great teachers and colleagues that has stuck with me over the years with regards to doubling on Alto and Bass:
Start and end the day on your main horn (large bore tenor I assume?) solidify home base so to speak. Also get comfortable over the entire range of the tenor, after all the notes you are going to play on Alto and Bass are there on the Tenor as well.
Play the same things you do on Tenor on the other horns.... Rochut's different octaves, clef's etc, all the usual flexibility exercises. Michael Davis 20min warmup (which could be called daily maintenance and takes longer than 20min!) is a fabulous resource.
It's OK to just learn the next piece you are going to play on Alto and concentrate on making that one piece good. Eventually you'll get through most of the standard repertoire. Also it's quite satisfying when something comes round again that you've played before!
Join a group on Bass Trombone, Big Bands especially are great fun and the parts will take you all over the range of the horn. (remember those Rochut's in diff octaves!)
Mouthpiece selection is a biggie! Remember everything will feel weird to begin with. A 2G is a great place to start on Bass, like wise a 11C/12C on Alto. Once you get comfy on these you can refine the sound a bit more with the mouthpiece later on.
Like life it's a journey, remember to have fun doing it!
H.
Start and end the day on your main horn (large bore tenor I assume?) solidify home base so to speak. Also get comfortable over the entire range of the tenor, after all the notes you are going to play on Alto and Bass are there on the Tenor as well.
Play the same things you do on Tenor on the other horns.... Rochut's different octaves, clef's etc, all the usual flexibility exercises. Michael Davis 20min warmup (which could be called daily maintenance and takes longer than 20min!) is a fabulous resource.
It's OK to just learn the next piece you are going to play on Alto and concentrate on making that one piece good. Eventually you'll get through most of the standard repertoire. Also it's quite satisfying when something comes round again that you've played before!
Join a group on Bass Trombone, Big Bands especially are great fun and the parts will take you all over the range of the horn. (remember those Rochut's in diff octaves!)
Mouthpiece selection is a biggie! Remember everything will feel weird to begin with. A 2G is a great place to start on Bass, like wise a 11C/12C on Alto. Once you get comfy on these you can refine the sound a bit more with the mouthpiece later on.
Like life it's a journey, remember to have fun doing it!
H.
-
ttf_watermailonman
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:36 pm
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Quote from: vegasbound on Jan 24, 2018, 04:53AM3 instruments requires 3 times the practice time, if you do not have this time, or are prepared to put the work in you will play 3 instruments badly instead of one instrument well!
This sounds logical but I don't find this to be the case at all. You need a good and well developed embouchure and you will use the sum of skills on all instruments when you play another instrument. You will benefit from ALL playing you've done if you do it right. You need to know the music well enough on the instrument for the day that you are going to play, but to be able to play the Mozart Requiem on alto I don't have to have practiced the alto as much as I have done the tenor. You do need to practice every instrument so you can play the parts you want to play and you need to play that part in tune and with a good sound. Of course you can be excellent on one size and good on the others. As long as you can perform anthing on the stand without complaints and as long as you get the next call you are probably doing allright.
/Tom
This sounds logical but I don't find this to be the case at all. You need a good and well developed embouchure and you will use the sum of skills on all instruments when you play another instrument. You will benefit from ALL playing you've done if you do it right. You need to know the music well enough on the instrument for the day that you are going to play, but to be able to play the Mozart Requiem on alto I don't have to have practiced the alto as much as I have done the tenor. You do need to practice every instrument so you can play the parts you want to play and you need to play that part in tune and with a good sound. Of course you can be excellent on one size and good on the others. As long as you can perform anthing on the stand without complaints and as long as you get the next call you are probably doing allright.
/Tom
-
ttf_MikeBMiller
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Why stop at 3? Get a soprano and a contra!
-
ttf_MikeBMiller
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay?
Why stop at 3? Get a soprano and a contra!