Looking for tuba advice from non-tubists

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:06 am

Depends on the type of playing you are looking to do...as someone who studied tuba in the UK. I would always go with EEb as my first choice, and if I had the money a CC..... In the USA it always seems that in orchestral and or brass quintet it is CC tuba being first choice

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:27 am

Quote from: pete edwards on Dec 08, 2017, 02:44AMI've got an old Holton "Monster" Eb which is more the size & sound of a 4/4 Bb. It only has 3 valves but the "privilege" tones between the 1st partial and the pedals are really excellent so it has a great low range.
the advantage of Eb over F are they are typically way less expensive and you can read bass clef as tenor clef (or Bb treble) & not have to do a whole lot of thinking.
Yes that is an excelent tuba, I did have a York monster Eb with three valves that also hade very good priviliged tones, actually as good or better many BBb tuba tones. But they are all gone, If you happen to find one of those, I say get it!

ttf_Driving Park · Post by **ttf_Driving Park** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:59 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 11, 2017, 11:52AMWait, there's an Eb euphonium? I did not know that.

British EEb tubas often look, play, and sound like bass euphoniums IMO. But, for what it's worth, Yamaha did manufacture a rare alto euphonium in E flat, seen here.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:09 am

Wow, a first valve trigger. Seems very useful.

ttf_John Beers Jr. · Post by **ttf_John Beers Jr.** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:55 pm

If I were looking to grab a tuba to double on (I am...) and had the cash at the moment (I don't), I'd probably grab something like this guy:
http://www.hornstash.com/products/Used-Conn-4J-BBb-Tuba-7436XX-2878.html

I tried a 4J at Dillon several years back and it was by far the easiest-to-center tuba I've tried to date. Now, the fact that I don't really know how to play tuba may impact that to some degree, as well as the fact that I'm always at the mercy of whatever mouthpiece the dude who's letting me try the things happens to have available. But, for being a 4/4 tuba, I found it easy to play and relatively affordable, especially given that it comes with a full complement of valves, and, since, it's always been at the corner of my mind just in case I happen to need a tuba in a hurry or see one on the market for a steal.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:26 pm

Quote from: John Beers Jr. on Dec 12, 2017, 12:55PMIf I were looking to grab a tuba to double on (I am...) and had the cash at the moment (I don't), I'd probably grab something like this guy:
http://www.hornstash.com/products/Used-Conn-4J-BBb-Tuba-7436XX-2878.html

I tried a 4J at Dillon several years back and it was by far the easiest-to-center tuba I've tried to date. Now, the fact that I don't really know how to play tuba may impact that to some degree, as well as the fact that I'm always at the mercy of whatever mouthpiece the dude who's letting me try the things happens to have available. But, for being a 4/4 tuba, I found it easy to play and relatively affordable, especially given that it comes with a full complement of valves, and, since, it's always been at the corner of my mind just in case I happen to need a tuba in a hurry or see one on the market for a steal.

Thanks for the suggestion. Some of the Conns have been mentioned more than once. This whole thing is a moving target, taking up more of my time than I wished. I'm going to meet with the Tuba Exchange guys in a couple of weeks to play some new and used tubas, and also try to see Mack Brass, since they are close together. If I were really ambitious, I'd also swing up to Baltimore Brass. I'll probably keep changing my mind until I get to play something. Anyway, the current contender is the Mack tu210, which is a Hirsbrunner 192 clone.

The old contender was a Miraphone 186, but I heard some complaints about it being a little stuffy down low, plus it didn't have a mouthpiece or a case, and had a fair bit of damage. People seem to really like these chinese Macks. Some of the details may be wonky, like rough lacquer or braces that aren't dead straight, but the sound and playability are reportedly right up there with the originals. I'm anxious to play some of these so my opinion means something.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:59 pm

I used to play some tuba before and liked the Eb tuba. Tried a Bb also but found the Eb easier to play. I never tried the C tuba. But I don't have a clue about tubas. Isn't there a tuba forum somewhere? Or do they sit in the pub?

Leif

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:27 pm

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:32 am

Quote from: savio on Dec 12, 2017, 09:59PMI used to play some tuba before and liked the Eb tuba. Tried a Bb also but found the Eb easier to play. I never tried the C tuba. But I don't have a clue about tubas. Isn't there a tuba forum somewhere? Or do they sit in the pub?

Leif

Yeah, there's a tuba forum, but they're all tubists...

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Post by **ttf_The Bone Ranger** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:13 am

What are you hoping to use the tuba for? Quintets, bands, large orchestras?

If you just want to have fun with a tuba, any old thing will do. If youre hoping to play it for cash, you might have to think a little harder.

If this is your first entry into the tuba world, itd be hard to go past a Mirafone 186, in Bb or C. These are to tuba players what the Bach 50 is to bass trombone players; everyone has either owned one or knows somebody who does, its been around forever, it makes an iconic sound, and its been played by many famous players over the years.

If youre looking for a decent all-rounder, dont get anything too big. A 3/4 or 4/4 Bb or C, or an Eb from Besson, Yamaha etc will likely cover most repertoire pretty well. Bb or C will have a little more low end, Eb will be a little more nimble up top.

My personal horn is a Rudolf Meinl 3/4 C, which is a classic mid-size horn that does most things well. Big enough to support a good size orchestra or band, and small enough to play in chamber settings.

But honestly, if this is your first tuba experience, just get something solid and dive in.

Andrew

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:56 am

Quote What are you hoping to use the tubas for? Chamber brass groups, small orchestra, scaring the neighbor kids off the lawn, just the usual stuff.

But there are other things. I found I didn't really enjoy bass trombone or get the chance to use my euphonium, so I'm hoping this will replace both of those. Also tuba should give me more opportunities here, as there is a lack of players. Also, I sometimes have pain in my arm when playing trombone, and I need a way to keep playing without hurting myself.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:36 am

Ben Griffin here on the Forum is selling a Yamaha 3/4 size Bb tuba. It's in excellent and is an excellent player. Look him up.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:40 am

I've doubled on valves-- tuba etc-- for over 40 years. A lot of tuba. Too much professional tuba.

A few points from about 10 years of hard reading of TubeNet, the tuba website:
1. Yes, tubists are stark raving insane. Get three of them in a room and you'll get 10 opinions about what to buy. Avoid tubists. Tubists love nothing more than spending other people;s money...
2. For a first tuba avoid the Chinese ones that are knock offs of American ones-- lousy resale value, actually zero.
Chinese tubas are for players who already know how to play--- and have a strong interest in the home made repairs and maintenance to keep a piece of bent metal and lousy metal running. Almost running, if you read TubeNet a lot.
A lot of Chinese horns have crashed and burned before they leave the factory. Once you blow into it the deterioration begins again, constantly.
3. BBb only. Forget the rest. Even real tubists chase their tails when it comes to key of horn.

The hard news you don't want to read? Yes, tuba should be fun, but if you experience arm pain on bone then hauling a tuba plus it's case, will kill you.
Plan on investing in a lot of mechanical dollies to strap onto the case-- or cases. Hauling is a pain. Get used to avoiding stairs and looking for ramps to buildings.

The tuba world is built on a lot of dreams and grand schemes. Some times they work. But consider this-- shouldn't there be piles of young adults in any area who spent the best years of their lives playing tuba, and should be willing and thrilled to play in an orchestra? Or in a brass band? If not, then it is the hauling aspect, and the demands of having young children in their new family, have taken them out of the game.

Read TubeNet for the real tubist's perspective on this.
Just like the trombone world, the tuba world is full of failed and miserable tubists who quit playing to raise a family and get back into it only after the kids are gone....but by then the weight of the horn is all they give a sh*t about. Tubists past the age of 50 would sell their souls to have 5 lbs taken off of their horns.

****
But the good news!!!
Three tubas to really consider:
#1-- the famed Olds O-99. Small but with a big bore and big sound for it's size. The newest ones would be from the 1970s when Olds failed, so they are all old old horns. But portable and playable.

#2- King 2341. Famous unevolved horns in BBb. I played one in high school with detachable bell that broke into two pieces for two cases. Monstrously heavy in the cases. Expensive even used.
But the good news about an AMERICAN MADE KING----- the resale value should be there if you quit. And if you quit it'll be because of your back, not because it isn't fun to play marches in flat key signatures in a band.

#3-- the Miraphones you mentioned. But they are flimsy things compared to a King. And piston valves are 10X easier to maintain than rotary valves.

My point? DO read TubeNet. Search for the Olds O-99 on tubenet to confirm my suspicions.
And go to the Home Depot website to look into the best hauling dollies you can afford and will fit into your vehicle. Your vehicle has to hold what you buy. Don't forget that.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:57 am

Small point about 3/4 Yamaha tubas. They are blatty with any mouthpiece, and mine needed a sousaphone tuning bit between the mouthpiece and leadpipe to bring it down to pitch. They are small and sharp. The YBB-103, the valued one, is the best of the 3/4 size, but obsolete since about 1990. Old horns now. Easy to carry, but limited in use. Great in a pit.

If you can find a 4 valve Yamaha good luck, nobody sells the ones they already have, used.

ttf_fsung · Post by **ttf_fsung** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:58 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 13, 2017, 06:57AMSmall point about 3/4 Yamaha tubas. FOR ME [t]hey are blatty with any mouthpiece, and mine needed a sousaphone tuning bit between the mouthpiece and leadpipe to bring it down to pitch. They are small and sharp.
FTFY.

Personally, never had a problem with blattyness or intonation on the Yammy 3/4s I've played paired with either a Conn 120s or Yammy 65.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:59 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 13, 2017, 06:40AMThe tuba world is built on a lot of dreams and grand schemes. Some times they work. But consider this-- shouldn't there be piles of young adults in any area who spent the best years of their lives playing tuba, and should be willing and thrilled to play in an orchestra? Or in a brass band? If not, then it is the hauling aspect, and the demands of having young children in their new family, have taken them out of the game.

Read TubeNet for the real tubist's perspective on this.
Just like the trombone world, the tuba world is full of failed and miserable tubists who quit playing to raise a family and get back into it only after the kids are gone....but by then the weight of the horn is all they give a sh*t about. Tubists past the age of 50 would sell their souls to have 5 lbs taken off of their horns.I play with a community orchestra that has the same problem with bass players. We generally end up hiring one or two for the concerts.

One thing about tuba is that one can (and often does) get all the way through college without owning a horn. Unless they run out and buy a tuba after they graduate, there's no instrument sitting in a closet silently reminding them of what they've lost. Without that motivation, they're far less likely to get back into it. Even if they do have fond memories, there's the obstacle of not having a horn, and most people would find it hard to justify (to themselves, let alone to a spouse) the expense of buying one when there are so many other demands on the bank account.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:10 am

fsung, push hard enough and all tubas blat. 3/4 sizes just blatttttt sooner.

I own a $400 Italian BB tuba of unknown make...almost perfect intonation. 32" tall and .750 bore...a monster horn at about 13 lbs and very portable. I got very lucky. Fits in any vehicle in a Cabela's canvas sack.

My baritone is 1950 Besson and compensating, and perfect. $395.

New modern Yamaha tubas cost about $15K+ for one worth keeping.
Read TubeNet and use the search function there. Free to use. Very valuable info if you read enough.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:24 am

Wow, geez, remind me not to come here if I ever get depressed.

Chinese - I have a chinese euph, and it has been ok as a double because I don't know any better. I hope the same will be true of a tuba. I wouldn't own a chinese trombone as my primary, although I've played at least one that was worthy. I'm going to at least look at the chinese tubas, and try to keep an open mind. The practicality issue of buying used is the big obstacle. There's a Miraphone in Colorado I would snag right now if I had a way to get it here. Tips on shipping would be helpful.

Tube net - yeah, I go and read a few every day. It kind of drives home the point that I'm never going to know anything about tubas until I play one, regardless of how much research I do. So I'm going to visit Tuba Exchange and Mack.

Shoulder - my problem with my shoulder is not the weight, but the position. Euphonium relaxes my shoulder, but I don't have anywhere to go play euph where there aren't 4-5 players already. Tuba cases have either straps (for soft case) or wheels (for hard case). I know an 85 year old guy who totes his Eb around. I think I can manage the weight.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:38 am

Shipping by way of Greyhound seems to be very popular for Tubas. You do have to pick the Tuba up at the buss depot.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:22 am

[Snide remark]
Buss depot? Maybe we need to tell Donald Trump about this!
[/Snide remark]

Do they get handled a little more delicately by the folks at the bus depot? I wonder.

I know I accidentally bought a tuba from Canada. Paid $600 for the horn and $400 for the shipping including a customs expediter. It was a bargain at $600 but a bit overpriced at $1000.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:01 am

Not trying to depress you, jackbird. But you did ask for constructive comments, and if I can save you thousands of dollars, and years of your life, then it is constructive.
Tuba is fun, if you go into it well prepared. Otherwise it could be a money pit, and a lot of hard work without much reward.

And do go to TubeNet, hundreds of posts there about shipping, the perils, and the best way to do it cheaply and safely....if you could do it BOTH cheaply and safely then TubeNet would only have one message about it, but it seems dangerous or expensive to ship mostly.

Olds O-99, or King 2341. Check them out. Do it once, do it right, and enjoy from day 1. The community bands/orchestras I get hired to play in are full of tubists who make the mistake of buying cheap, getting p*ssed off about the quality, trying to unload garbage horns on the innocent and unsuspecting public, and then get really miffed when they find out that the going rate for a horn worth keeping might be $5K used.

Please, read TubeNet. Lots of good warnings there.

ttf_mwpfoot · Post by **ttf_mwpfoot** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:05 am

Several years ago it was under $100 to ship a tuba from Indiana to California.

Large objects like tubas travel space-permitting, and they aren't precisely tracked - so this method requires some patience, and faith.

Mine eventually arrived just fine.

(That was an old Conn Eb Helicon that I bought to start. I recently added a Conn 20J with the recording bell to go bigger and louder and lower, but I'm just starting to get the hang of it. These are great horns for my uses but probably not yours.)

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:40 am

Two more cents from me...

Yes, the Olds O-99-4 is a great little tuba. You will want the 4-valve version, of course. And the King 2341 is also great and indestructible. They did evolve, though. The newer ones are more recommended than the older ones.

I have owned tubas with tall and short stack bells. The 2341 puts the bell just above my ear. The taller stacks, like the 186, put it WAY above you. I don't think it matters - it is not blasting right into you ear. I do like the shorter tubas, for handling and storing, etc. And they look nicer.

Chinese-made horns? Quality is questionable, and resale is horrible. Resale on a King or German-made tuba will be about what you paid for it. So, why bother? So, again...

Stick with Mira, MW, Meinl, B&S, Yamaha, etc. As bonesmarsh said... do it once.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:45 am

How does the King 2341 compare with the Conn 5J? I have a friend who borrowed one and wound up buying one for himself. And he majored in Euph.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:13 pm

Well, Bruce....that is a question for TubeNet and the mysteries of the tubist's mind. Again...difference? Ask 3 tubists and wait for 10 opinions.

Tubists have too much time to count rests and think about nonsense. Seems to me that the King has a bore of .680 vs larger for most others.

I'll clarify my comments about the Yamahas....bore is tiny, for kids, and they're sharp. If you had a tuning slide long enough to bring it down to A-440 it'd hit the player in the leg. Great idea for a horn...but a questionable R&D. The one absolutely great thing about small Yamaha horns is that the valves are interchangeable. Designed to be like Lego to keep a fleet of them in repair and at least one in a school functioning. Unscrew the bell section and big bows for repair and adding undamaged parts from another horn wit ha screw driver. Valves are all the same....1, 2, 3 are all the same...one valve shot?-- pull one from another horn and the band program goes on until repair is done. If you have 3 or 4 , you should have one not trashed as long as you keep swapping out valves and unscrewing bells to rejig.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:21 pm

Sounds like to OP is going to where he can actually try instruments and decide for himself, which is really the best way to do it. Even as a non-tubist.

ttf_fsung · Post by **ttf_fsung** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:31 pm

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 13, 2017, 08:10AMfsung, push [s]hard enough[/s] too hard and all tubas blat. 3/4 sizes just blatttttt sooner.

FTFY.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:47 am

Ah yes, fsung. You are more correct than I was. One of the truly terrifying lessons from TubeNet is that all tubists dream of the day when they have $30K to $50K of their own dream money to buy the famed copies of the Jacobs York. The famed 6/4 sized YamaYorks....which no human can make blattttttt. For the extra $25K you just get a more pronounced "mwaaaahhhhhhhhhh"...like a great fretless bass, with more watts to the amp power.

I did try a famed Holton monster CC in '85 for a while, and it did not blaaaatttttt. But I couldn't hold it at 40lbs, and you had to have a special mouthpiece made with a shank to fit the leadpipe going to the almost 1" bore. Not for the faint of heart, or humans.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:39 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 14, 2017, 04:47AMAh yes, fsung. You are more correct than I was. One of the truly terrifying lessons from TubeNet is that all tubists dream of the day when they have $30K to $50K of their own dream money to buy the famed copies of the Jacobs York. The famed 6/4 sized YamaYorks....which no human can make blattttttt. For the extra $25K you just get a more pronounced "mwaaaahhhhhhhhhh"...like a great fretless bass, with more watts to the amp power.

I did try a famed Holton monster CC in '85 for a while, and it did not blaaaatttttt. But I couldn't hold it at 40lbs, and you had to have a special mouthpiece made with a shank to fit the leadpipe going to the almost 1" bore. Not for the faint of heart, or humans.
These days I find myself lugging the Tuba to just as many gigs as the bass bone or Euphonium, and unless I can afford to hire someone to lug it around for me I'll pass on the 6/4 monsters. I Like my Miraphone 186 CC just for being able to strap it to my back and carry it without hurting myself. I do wish it didn't have the tall stack and was more compact, it doesn't fit well in the back of my wifes car and I have to put it in the back seat. The older I get the more I appreciate portability in an instrument.

ttf_fsung · Post by **ttf_fsung** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:25 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 14, 2017, 04:47AMAh yes, fsung. You are more correct than I was. One of the truly terrifying lessons from TubeNet is that all tubists dream of the day when they have $30K to $50K of their own dream money to buy the famed copies of the Jacobs York. The famed 6/4 sized YamaYorks....which no human can make blattttttt. For the extra $25K you just get a more pronounced "mwaaaahhhhhhhhhh"...like a great fretless bass, with more watts to the amp power.

I did try a famed Holton monster CC in '85 for a while, and it did not blaaaatttttt. But I couldn't hold it at 40lbs, and you had to have a special mouthpiece made with a shank to fit the leadpipe going to the almost 1" bore. Not for the faint of heart, or humans.

It's about knowing and understanding the character and limitations of an instrumenttuba or otherwiseand using it appropriately instead of trying to do something with it that it's not designed or intended to do. As Sabutin likes to say, choose the right instrument for the job. If you're having to overblow any instrument to the point it gets blatty and "blatty" is not the desired effect musically, then it ain't the right instrument for the job.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:14 am

ok, last question. Is it possible to have a compensating rotary tuba, or is the compensating system only available with pistons?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:41 pm

Quote from: jackbird on Dec 17, 2017, 10:14AMok, last question. Is it possible to have a compensating rotary tuba, or is the compensating system only available with pistons?

I've seen rotary compensating French horns, but not a rotary compensating tuba. Almost every compensating Euph or Tuba seems to use piston valves. They also don't seem to do C or F.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:28 pm

I'm doubtful of the wisdom of a four-valve compensating system. It only compensates when you use the fourth valve. And you don't really need a fourth valve if you have a three-valve compensating system.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:38 pm

The 4 valve compensator is useful for the extended range. It puts the notes down in the "trigger" register in tune

The 3 valve compensator fixes problems with the 3rd valve so you have 1-2-3 more in tune.

ttf_sirisobhakya · Post by **ttf_sirisobhakya** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:57 pm

Quote from: jackbird on Dec 17, 2017, 10:14AMok, last question. Is it possible to have a compensating rotary tuba, or is the compensating system only available with pistons?

It is possible, but I think it would be prohibitively expensive, considering the normal Bb 4-valved rotary tuba is as expensive as the compensated piston one. I also think (this is entirely my observation of only some tubist and can be totally wrong) that the users of rotary tuba, particularly the Germans, are familiar with lipping and alternate fingerings. Some tubas also have trigger/kicker to further help. Those devices are almost certainly cheaper than compensating rotaries. So no demand, thus no supply.

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Post by **ttf_The Bone Ranger** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:36 pm

Quote from: robcat2075 on Dec 17, 2017, 04:28PMI'm doubtful of the wisdom of a four-valve compensating system. It only compensates when you use the fourth valve. And you don't really need a fourth valve if you have a three-valve compensating system.

It seems the rest of the world disagrees with your wisdom. Three valve compensating tubas have gone the way of the dodo.

A four-valve compensating tuba will give you a full chromatic range, whereas a 3 valve horn will always be missing a tritone before the pedal notes.

Andrew

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:59 pm

Yes, I have a 4v compensating euph. It erases the shortcomings of a single valve trombone.

Lipping notes? Alternate fingerings? How barbaric.

The tuba world confuses me. The makers of big tubas brag how "point and shoot" in tune they are, apparently without a compensating system at all. I'm glad I play trombone.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:36 am

The two best in tune tuba players I've played with seemed to be pulling valve slides constantly. It almost seems like they're playing a Superbone. But a couple of other tuba players I know play very well in tune lipping.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:24 am

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Dec 17, 2017, 06:36PMIt seems the rest of the world disagrees with your wisdom. Three valve compensating tubas have gone the way of the dodo.

A four-valve compensating tuba will give you a full chromatic range, whereas a 3 valve horn will always be missing a tritone before the pedal notes.

Notes almost never encountered in tuba literature. For the sort of playing the OP has said he will be doing they will never be needed.

ttf_trombonemetal · Post by **ttf_trombonemetal** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:44 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Dec 18, 2017, 08:24AMNotes almost never encountered in tuba literature. For the sort of playing the OP has said he will be doing they will never be needed.

Seems like if you play the lowest instrument being able to play all the low notes is a good idea. Im not sure if compensated is necessary but I think 4 valves is a no brainer.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:53 am

I think all of the best advice is pointing to a compensating 4v Eb, like a Wessex Solo or Champion. This should be an easy transition from my Wessex Dolce Euphonium.

I don't have all the answers, but I think I have enough answers to start playing some horns. Thanks for all the input. Now to find an available horn...

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:22 am

Quote from: trombonemetal on Dec 18, 2017, 08:44AMSeems like if you play the lowest instrument being able to play all the low notes is a good idea. Im not sure if compensated is necessary but I think 4 valves is a no brainer.

Show me five standard repertoire orchestra pieces that community orchestras play that need those notes.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:09 am

Theoretical considerations are great. But very few actual tubists play compensating tubas. I wonder why?...

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:24 am

Quote from: greenbean on Dec 18, 2017, 10:09AMTheoretical considerations are great. But very few actual tubists play compensating tubas. I wonder why?...

Compensators are very common in Brass Bands. Euphs, Eb tubas, and BBb tubas are all compensating. Some of the challenge works will require those notes.

If you play in an orchestra on an Eb tuba, you will easily need all the notes in the "compensating" range. If you are trying to play contrabassoon or string bass parts (in proper octave -- they are both written an octave higher) you will need the compensating notes on a BBb.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:31 am

Well, the OP feels that he needs the notes, thus he needs the notes. Same reason I don't like playing single trigger bass. There's nothing theoretical about intonation. It took me years to be able to play a trombone really in tune. I want to short circuit that as much as possible on tuba. I may still have to make adjustments, but far fewer of them. Plus, I'm used to playing the compensating euph, this will be just slightly bigger.

ttf_trombonemetal · Post by **ttf_trombonemetal** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:56 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Dec 18, 2017, 09:22AMShow me five standard repertoire orchestra pieces that community orchestras play that need those notes.

Show me five great modern orchestral tuba players who play a 3 valve compensating horns. In fact, show me one.

There is no reason to not get a horn with four valves. Why voluntarily limit yourself to antiquated technology? What happens when Christmas pops has a low Eb?

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:15 am

Quote from: trombonemetal on Dec 18, 2017, 10:56AMShow me five great modern orchestral tuba players who play a 3 valve compensating horns. In fact, show me one.

Show me a maybe-or-maybe not community orchestra player, one just now coming to tuba from trombone, who needs more.

That is how the OP has defined himself, not as a great modern orchestral tuba player who has put in the many hours needed to overcome the limitations of non-compensating designs and the enormous time needed to make those five more notes at the bottom worth ever using.

Making those five notes the main driver of a tuba choice is just slightly more practical than making zombie attacks the main driver of a home purchase.

ttf_trombonemetal · Post by **ttf_trombonemetal** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:23 am

Playing a fully chromatic modern instrument = zombie attack??

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:09 pm

Actually, I am confused...

To the OP. Why do want advice from non-tubists, anyway? Wouldn't it make more sense to ask people who "know what they are talking about?" Like tuba players? (Insert tuba player jokes here.

)

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:57 pm

Quote from: greenbean on Dec 18, 2017, 12:09PMActually, I am confused...

To the OP. Why do want advice from non-tubists, anyway? Wouldn't it make more sense to ask people who "know what they are talking about?" Like tuba players? (Insert tuba player jokes here.

)

Well, to be honest, I've asked both camps, but I specifically wanted advice from people whose point of view I could understand. I wanted to hear from people who have gone through the same sort of transition. Tenor to bass to tuba. Tuba players say things, and you've got no idea what it relates to. Some tuba players have this outlandish idea of size, where only things that need a tractor to be moved around are worthy. And of course the same chinese bashing thing happens over there as over here. Tubas are so ridiculously expensive, that more tubists look for general purpose tubas because they can't afford 10 of them. But a lot of the same things happen there as here. Here, everybody recommends trombones that are impossible to find, or prohibitively expensive when they show up (Elkhart 62h, Greenhoe, 613h, duo gravis, etc).

Of course, I've had recommendations for everything, but primarily Eb and BBb. A lot of practical things came up that I'd never thought of, like the number of spit valves (1 with a rotary system, 4+ with pistons), weight, arm position, side the instrument leans to, but the compensation system turned out to be the killer. I'm not going to spend as much time on tuba as on bone, so I don't expect to learn all the tuning idiosyncrasies like on my trombone.

I still have time to change my mind a couple dozen times, but I think keeping it similar to my euph will be a good idea. I think I can learn the Eb fingerings. My valve technique will be slower than my reading, so no problem there. I just have to start playing some instruments to narrow it down, and that will have to wait until after Christmas, I think.