Looking for tuba advice from non-tubists

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:06 pm

Quote from: jackbird on Dec 17, 2017, 06:59PMYes, I have a 4v compensating euph. It erases the shortcomings of a single valve trombone.

Lipping notes? Alternate fingerings? How barbaric.

The tuba world confuses me. The makers of big tubas brag how "point and shoot" in tune they are, apparently without a compensating system at all. I'm glad I play trombone.
I find lipping notes easier on Tuba than on Euphonium, also most Tubas are designed so that at least the first valve slide is easily reachable for slide pulling (My first and 4th valve slides are both easily pulled on my Miraphone 186). I see less need for a compensating tuba because of this than a Euphonium (although I personally play a non-compensating Euph. and take advantage of alternate fingerings and lipping on that instrument as well). Tubas are inherently heavy instruments and a compensating system adds extra weight that isn't all that necessary.

ttf_SensitiveJohn · Post by **ttf_SensitiveJohn** » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:16 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Dec 18, 2017, 10:24AMIf you play in an orchestra on an Eb tuba, you will easily need all the notes in the "compensating" range. If you are trying to play contrabassoon or string bass parts (in proper octave -- they are both written an octave higher) you will need the compensating notes on a BBb.

Isn't the lowest note of a string bass E1, the same as the bass guitar?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:44 pm

Some string basses have 5 strings and go to C1. Contrabassoon goes to Bb0

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:09 pm

C extensions (on what would be the E string) are much more common than 5 string upright basses.
A 5 string goes to low B

ttf_SensitiveJohn · Post by **ttf_SensitiveJohn** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:49 am

C1 and B0 are very low notes. I wonder if speakers can project them properly? I suspect that one would have to hear it in person, and in a big room, in order to hear it properly.

ttf_basslizard · Post by **ttf_basslizard** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:12 am

Quote from: jackbird on Dec 18, 2017, 12:57PMWell, to be honest, I've asked both camps, but I specifically wanted advice from people whose point of view I could understand. I wanted to hear from people who have gone through the same sort of transition. Tenor to bass to tuba. Tuba players say things, and you've got no idea what it relates to. Some tuba players have this outlandish idea of size, where only things that need a tractor to be moved around are worthy. And of course the same chinese bashing thing happens over there as over here. Tubas are so ridiculously expensive, that more tubists look for general purpose tubas because they can't afford 10 of them. But a lot of the same things happen there as here. Here, everybody recommends trombones that are impossible to find, or prohibitively expensive when they show up (Elkhart 62h, Greenhoe, 613h, duo gravis, etc).

Of course, I've had recommendations for everything, but primarily Eb and BBb. A lot of practical things came up that I'd never thought of, like the number of spit valves (1 with a rotary system, 4+ with pistons), weight, arm position, side the instrument leans to, but the compensation system turned out to be the killer. I'm not going to spend as much time on tuba as on bone, so I don't expect to learn all the tuning idiosyncrasies like on my trombone.

I still have time to change my mind a couple dozen times, but I think keeping it similar to my euph will be a good idea. I think I can learn the Eb fingerings. My valve technique will be slower than my reading, so no problem there. I just have to start playing some instruments to narrow it down, and that will have to wait until after Christmas, I think.

I'm laughing a little, since I just bought an Elkhart 62H on Ebay, marvelous, amazing, holy grail of horns!
I will stick by my recommendation that you find a safe little BBb tuba, 3-4 valves doesn't matter. My tuba is a very basic 3-valve horn that suits what I use it for - playing with my kids' pep band, in my sextet group (trumpets, horn, trombones, and me on the tuba). If you can try a few horns, that's great. For versatility, stick with a basic horn.

I am currently working on a solo that has me playing pedal tones down into a low F, and yes, it's not spon-on. It is, however, so low that nobody seems to notice that it's not quite right. I have pep band music that does use those low pedal tones, so to whoever said they're rare, well, they're in the cheap Hal Leonard arrangements.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:20 pm

As a sort of resolution to this issue, I went today and bought a Mack Brass tuba from Tom McGrady. I got a BBb 4 rotor 3/4 size (Cerveny 683 Arion copy Jinbao Jbbb220) . My initial reaction is God, its disconcertingly large. I can't hear the difference between F and Bb, I sound like a junior high school student. I think Tom gave me some good advice amd information, I just hope I can make proper use of it.

Its going to take weeks /months of practice to be less embarrassing on tuba. The good news is my bass trombone immediately sounded better. Also, even the smallish 24AW is so big it wont effect my tbone embouchure. Does tuba really use an embouchure?

I don't feel that I'm qualified at this point to offer a critique of the tuba. Tom helped me with the initial tuning, and its pretty good. The valves work well, and the slides move. I can't comment on the sound right now, as I'm still sorting that out. It does sound big for what is described as a 3/4 size tuba. Even With my non-tuba chops, I actually get a better sound down low than in the middle range. I may try to have a real tuba player have a look at it.

Anyway, its going to take some time.

ttf_trombonemetal · Post by **ttf_trombonemetal** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:12 am

Something thats really helped my tuba students is an exercise called paper clip.

Unbend a paper clip part way so you can put one end in the mouthpiece receiver alongside the shank of the mouthpiece. Dont jamb it in there, you dont want to scratch anything. What it does is make you focus your embouchure more. Its like buzzing the mouthpiece alone, but you get the harmonic series on the horn to help guide you. Doesnt work on trombone or trumpet for some reason. It sounds stupid, but its been getting great results.

Good luck and happy practicing!!

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:04 am

Trombonemetal,
Yeah I can see how that would help. The partials are sooo far apart and the slots are so wide, training my embouchure (and ear) to where Bb-F-Bb are will help a lot, but for now I am getting lost in the partials. I crack 3 out of 4 notes. Low Bb just jumps out of this horn, but it feels too low. High F sounds a half step low, but it isn't.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:10 am

I bet that will be a great horn. I have a Cerveny 683 stencil. It it really more of a compactly wrapped 4/4 horn. The born is quite large, .787, and it plays like other 4/4 tubas. Mine plays like a dream and is easy to play in tune.

I also remember being shocked at how bad I was during the first few months. Then I built up some lip muscle and everything came together.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:26 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Dec 18, 2017, 09:22AMShow me five standard repertoire orchestra pieces that community orchestras play that need those notes.
Mathis Der Maler, Symphony no 3, Cello Concerto, Niblissima Visione, Hindemith. Sinfonietta Leos by Janaceck. Tod und Verklang, Ein Heldenleben, Salome, Don Quiote, Macbeth, R Strauss. Manfred Symphony, Symphony no 2,no 5,no 6, Hamlet, Tchaikowsky.
Bolero Ravel. Symphony no 1, no2, no5, no6,no 7 and no8, Mahler. Lulu, Wozzeck, Violin Concerto, Alban Berg. Symphony no 4, no 6, no 7, no 9, Bruckner. Six Pieces, A Webern. Symphony no5, Prokofief. A London Symphony, Symphony no 4, Vaugan-Williams. Isle Of The Dead, Symphony no 2, Rachmaninoff. Symphony no 1, no 5, Shostakovich. Symphony no 2, Brahms. Hansel Und Gretel, Humperdinck. Nocturnes, Debussy.

Some of this is not played much in community orchestras i Sweden, all of this has been played though.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:29 am

Quote from: Radar on Dec 18, 2017, 04:06PMI find lipping notes easier on Tuba than on Euphonium, also most Tubas are designed so that at least the first valve slide is easily reachable for slide pulling (My first and 4th valve slides are both easily pulled on my Miraphone 186). I see less need for a compensating tuba because of this than a Euphonium (although I personally play a non-compensating Euph. and take advantage of alternate fingerings and lipping on that instrument as well). Tubas are inherently heavy instruments and a compensating system adds extra weight that isn't all that necessary.

Yes that is a common way to play tuba (and Euphonium) Maybe we are Barbarians?

ttf_John Beers Jr. · Post by **ttf_John Beers Jr.** » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:04 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Dec 30, 2017, 08:26AMMathis Der Maler, Symphony no 3, Cello Concerto, Niblissima Visione, Hindemith. Sinfonietta Leos by Janaceck. Tod und Verklang, Ein Heldenleben, Salome, Don Quiote, Macbeth, R Strauss. Manfred Symphony, Symphony no 2,no 5,no 6, Hamlet, Tchaikowsky.
Bolero Ravel. Symphony no 1, no2, no5, no6,no 7 and no8, Mahler. Lulu, Wozzeck, Violin Concerto, Alban Berg. Symphony no 4, no 6, no 7, no 9, Bruckner. Six Pieces, A Webern. Symphony no5, Prokofief. A London Symphony, Symphony no 4, Vaugan-Williams. Isle Of The Dead, Symphony no 2, Rachmaninoff. Symphony no 1, no 5, Shostakovich. Symphony no 2, Brahms. Hansel Und Gretel, Humperdinck. Nocturnes, Debussy.

Some of this is not played much in community orchestras i Sweden, all of this has been played though.

Community Orchestras with whom I've played (as a trombonist, not a tubist) have done:
Brahms 2
Bolero
Mahler 1
Humpergretel
Rachmaninoff 2

I've played some pieces in community bands/brassbands that have had the bass bone part go down to pedal D (doubled with tuba) as well, but I can't name any off the top of my head.

EDIT: They've done Tchaik5, also, but I'm not seeing any notes lower than F in the tuba part on IMSLP.

ttf_Davidus1 · Post by **ttf_Davidus1** » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:09 pm

Quote from: jackbird on Dec 12, 2017, 01:26PMThanks for the suggestion. Some of the Conns have been mentioned more than once. This whole thing is a moving target, taking up more of my time than I wished. I'm going to meet with the Tuba Exchange guys in a couple of weeks to play some new and used tubas, and also try to see Mack Brass, since they are close together. If I were really ambitious, I'd also swing up to Baltimore Brass. I'll probably keep changing my mind until I get to play something. Anyway, the current contender is the Mack tu210, which is a Hirsbrunner 192 clone.

The old contender was a Miraphone 186, but I heard some complaints about it being a little stuffy down low, plus it didn't have a mouthpiece or a case, and had a fair bit of damage. People seem to really like these chinese Macks. Some of the details may be wonky, like rough lacquer or braces that aren't dead straight, but the sound and playability are reportedly right up there with the originals. I'm anxious to play some of these so my opinion means something.

Miraphones are not stuffy down low. I don't know where you heard that but it isn't true. Miraphone 186 CC tubas were the standard orchestral tuba not too many years back. The Miraphone 186BBb tubas are solid instruments for any type of playing. You'll never go wrong with a 186. Their low range is excellent and not at all stuffy. I played one for over 10 years in the military and owned a couple myself.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:43 am

QuoteEDIT: They've done Tchaik5, also, but I'm not seeing any notes lower than F in the tuba part on IMSLP.Well there are many low A in the bass trombone where the tuba is written one octave lower. In the fourth movement (Allegre vivace)there are some low Gs in the basstrombone, those are in the tuba part too but one octave lower.
If you play a three valve EEb tuba you have to fake all tones lower then contra A or play one octave up. That is how it is.

ttf_John Beers Jr. · Post by **ttf_John Beers Jr.** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:24 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jan 02, 2018, 03:43AMWell there are many low A in the bass trombone where the tuba is written one octave lower. In the fourth movement (Allegre vivace)there are some low Gs in the basstrombone, those are in the tuba part too but one octave lower.
If you play a three valve EEb tuba you have to fake all tones lower then contra A or play one octave up. That is how it is.

Oh ok, you were talking about an Eb tuba (is EEb the correct nomenclature? Somehow I got the impression that the changeover to double-letters happened at CC) and I was thinking about BBb. That wasn't a clear distinction when I followed the thread back.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:35 am

Quote from: Davidus1 on Jan 01, 2018, 04:09PMMiraphones are not stuffy down low. I don't know where you heard that but it isn't true. Miraphone 186 CC tubas were the standard orchestral tuba not too many years back. The Miraphone 186BBb tubas are solid instruments for any type of playing. You'll never go wrong with a 186. Their low range is excellent and not at all stuffy. I played one for over 10 years in the military and owned a couple myself.

I totally agree I've never played a 186 that I thought to be stuffy in the low register or anywhere else. As an all around instrument I love my Miraphone 186 CC, it's great for small ensembles but I also play it as the sole tuba in a 50 piece concert band and no one has a problem hearing my bass lines, even in the lowest register. Honestly because a couple of the groups I played Trombone or Euphonium with had a real need for Tuba (I hadn't played one since occasionally picking up Sousaphone with the Army reserve Band for parades, and I retired from there in 2000) I picked up a beater Yamaha YBB 321 (an instrument that I thought to be very underrated) and worked on Tuba on that, then bought my own Conn Sousaphone, I then at the urging of the Tuba instructor I'd been working with picked up the Miraphone 186 CC. I sold the Yamaha because the Miraphone could do anything the bigger Yamaha could, and now have the Conn Sousaphone for Marching and outdoor gigs, and the Miraphone. If you are seriously worried about stuffiness in the low register then you don't want a 3/4 Tuba, if you want a big low register sound you want a 4/4 or bigger. I find myself really enjoying playing tuba more than Tenor Trombone these days, and I'm actually in more demand on Tuba as well. Making the Transition to Tuba from Trombone is a slippery slope, you may find they want you on Tuba more than they do on Trombone.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:37 am

The stuffy bit is something I just heard from one source. Probably shouldn't have paid any attention to it. I tend to discount people's accounts of stuffy small bore trombone, but I didn't think a tuba should be stuffy at all. Anyway, I think the 186 is probably out of my league. I'm going to look into some smaller tubas. After playing what is billed as a 3/4 BBb or a tightly wrapped 4/4, I think that size is sonically too big for me to manage. The whole thing was I wanted to get something I can just pick up and play almost like a euph, but with more weight. Maybe I should look at a small bore F. I really just need something that can play bass bone parts but with a bit more heft than a euphonium.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:58 am

I played a Mirafone 5 valve F (180-5U) in an orchestra, a quintet, and a concert band. I was able to keep up with just about all the parts I was presented with (except when I was given a Bb treble tuba part - couldn't figure out the fingerings on the fly). I still have it but don't play it as much as I used to.

Note that Kilton Vinal Smith played an F tuba for his entire stint as tuba player for the Boston Symphony Orchestra.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:03 pm

Please note that beginner tubists in school programs play only BBb tuba. They do not play Eb, EEb,F, CC or anything else. If you're having difficulty differentiating between Bb-F-Bb you should really think some more about the necessity of selecting anything other than a small BBb.

I realize that you do not want to waste your money, that you want to buy the perfect horn the first time out-- but you'll get nothing but conflicting opinions here, and even more conflicting opinion on TubeNet, where I believe that you've asked the same questions using a different user name.

If you're committed to playing tuba, rent a small 3/4 BBb Yamaha and really get into it. I owned a small 3/4 YBB-103 and loved it to pieces.

You should also consider the resale value, if you choose to buy a more expensive horn later once you learn to love tuba. Far far easier to resell a BBb model.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:54 pm

Bonesmarsh,
I've heard from elsewhere that one group always started learners on Eb. So generalizations may not be what you think they should be. I've stated earlier in this thread that I was seeking help from tubists and non-tubists at the same time. Being an adult, I recognize the contradictory nature of internet advice, but thanks for restating.

I needed a little introductory information, which I now have. Its time to start playing instruments. I'll put together the experiences from playing with the contradictory internet advice.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:05 pm

Please understand, Jackbird, that it really doesn't make a difference whether you use one name on each Forum or different ones. I will resist any user trying to create two accounts on THIS forum, but that's just our rules (we had a few guys create one account to ask legitimate questions and another to be a troll).

I don't care which tuba you choose. I think the BBb fingerings will flow better but my experience on several full size ones and Sousaphones was that they didn't fit ME. I went Eb and eventually F and did fine. But you may find a small BBb to be just the ticket.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:53 pm

Quote from: jackbird on Dec 29, 2017, 08:20PMAs a sort of resolution to this issue, I went today and bought a Mack Brass tuba from Tom McGrady. I got a BBb 4 rotor 3/4 size (Cerveny 683 Arion copy Jinbao Jbbb220) . My initial reaction is God, its disconcertingly large. I can't hear the difference between F and Bb, I sound like a junior high school student.

This is why I doubted the need for a valve to play those five notes at the very bottom that never show up in parts anyway.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:26 am

Quote from: jackbird on Jan 02, 2018, 07:54PMBonesmarsh,
I've heard from elsewhere that one group always started learners on Eb.

I would guess that those beginners may have started on Eb sheet music as well as Eb instruments, so until they advanced quite a bit they would be limited in playing music in concert pitch.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:50 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 02, 2018, 10:53PMThis is why I doubted the need for a valve to play those five notes at the very bottom that never show up in parts anyway.

It's not just about the low notes, which initially I can't play anyway. The 4th valve plays a huge role in intonation, which needs to be pretty good if this instrument isn't going to eff with my ears.

I've been picking up the instrument every hour or so and seeing if I can play a tuning Bb right out of the gate. I'm getting better at that. Scales, intervals, melodies. Trying to slur passages to make it sound like music rather than isolated blattts. I may be able to make this instrument work for me. The more I read, the more I find that people like this model, which is the same as the defunct Wessex Prague, Cerveny Arion 683. Plus, access to some of the smaller Eb horns in reliable condition is limited. Wessex seems to be sold out of the Champion, Solo, and Bombino, as well as the Junior/Imp. Mack sold me the smallest horn he had, although he supposedly carries a Yammie 103 clone w/4 valves.

Practice is clearly the key, but a smaller horn might have given me a leg up (mainly because of the air issue). This 220 has a .787 bore while some of the small Ebs have a .6x. That has to be more manageable. The BBb will go as low as I'll ever need to (or be able to) go. I have started exploring the "trigger" range, but have yet to reach the pedal range, and then pedal trigger is just a fog below that. It may be a while before I'm willing to play with other people. I've had the horn less than a week, so it's still too early to make predictions, but I am starting to enjoy it more. Playing some Rochut, and want to start playing some basslines off the page.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:56 am

Quote from: jackbird on Jan 03, 2018, 06:50AMIt's not just about the low notes, which initially I can't play anyway. The 4th valve plays a huge role in intonation, which needs to be pretty good if this instrument isn't going to eff with my ears.

Some tubas but not all have another harmonic series in the "trigger" range. I guess they're false tones, but they don't feel like it. If yours has it, open will be an Eb below your Bb, and your valves will work down from there. If you're not playing that range yet on your 4th valve you probably can't check if these exist on your horn, but when you get there you should see.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:08 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Jan 03, 2018, 04:26AMI would guess that those beginners may have started on Eb sheet music as well as Eb instruments, so until they advanced quite a bit they would be limited in playing music in concert pitch.

Some of those beginners were trumpet players who found the fingerings on an Eb tuba easier to follow since they would use the same "buttons" for a particular note placement on the staff.

Some of those beginners were small children for whom a large BBb is too hard to fill.

Jackbird, I found a 24AW way too big to fill. I went to Helleberg style pieces. I have a Schilke 66 that works well for me, as well as a Mirafone H2. In fact, I have 3 different sized ones: the Mirafone being the smallest, the Schilke a little larger, and a Perantucci S25 (it has a new number now) as the biggest. When I haven't played in a while, I need to use the Mirafone for a couple of days, then switch to the Schilke. When I'm really playing a lot of tube the Perantucci goes in.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:01 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 03, 2018, 09:08AM
Jackbird, I found a 24AW way too big to fill. I went to Helleberg style pieces. I have a Schilke 66 that works well for me, as well as a Mirafone H2. In fact, I have 3 different sized ones: the Mirafone being the smallest, the Schilke a little larger, and a Perantucci S25 (it has a new number now) as the biggest. When I haven't played in a while, I need to use the Mirafone for a couple of days, then switch to the Schilke. When I'm really playing a lot of tube the Perantucci goes in.

The 24AW is what came with it, but a tuba playing friend also recommended the Helleberg. As I understand it, "Helleberg" is a style rather than a brand or model. Is that right? It's a conical mouthpiece? I like more conical shapes on my bass bone. What Helleberg model with a relatively small throat but possibly deep cup would you recommend?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:08 am

I liked the Mirafone H2 as a "starter" piece. The Schilke 66 and 67 are both Hellebergs; the 66 being a little smaller. Both are larger than the Mirafone.

Marcinkiewicz has a whole series of Hellebergs numbered H1 to H4. I have an H1, but it seems a tad big; maybe the higher numbers are smaller.

Lots of tuba players like the Conn Helleberg but they are not made any more and you'll have to find a used one.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:16 am

The answer to the Hellberg question is... both. Conn made two versions of the Helleberg mpc. Regular (120S) and 7B. The 7B might have a slightly smaller rim diameter and a bit deeper, IIRC. Both have fairly flat rims - but they do vary.

Helleberg is also a style of mpc. Most makers offer one. The Schilke is especially nice and I have heard good things about the Faxx.

When I started on tuba, I used an 18, which I thought worked well. I then moved to a Conn Helleberg, also excellent. I stumbled across a Schilke Helleberg - even better! But the 18 is probably a better place to start. They are plentiful and cheap. Maybe the Faxx 18 if you want something new...

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:12 am

One other possibility is the plastic Kellyberg. My quintet tubist started on one. He's basically a Euph player but the Kelly worked great for him. And the price was good.

My first tuba mouthpiece was an unbranded 25 (similar to the Bach, but probably not made as well -- how would I have known?). Smaller than the 18.

One other suggestion to get you started. I have a period (late 19th Century) tuba mouthpiece that is basically a more conical 1 1/2 G. See if your bass trombone mouthpiece gives you better control over the partials. As you develop you will discover that it's too small and can intelligently move on to something bigger.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:41 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 03, 2018, 10:08AMI liked the Mirafone H2 as a "starter" piece. The Schilke 66 and 67 are both Hellebergs; the 66 being a little smaller. Both are larger than the Mirafone.

Marcinkiewicz has a whole series of Hellebergs numbered H1 to H4. I have an H1, but it seems a tad big; maybe the higher numbers are smaller.

Lots of tuba players like the Conn Helleberg but they are not made any more and you'll have to find a used one.
Conn still has two models of Helleberg still available the 120S (standard Model) or the 7B.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:47 pm

Quote from: Radar on Jan 03, 2018, 05:41PMConn still has two models of Helleberg still available the 120S (standard Model) or the 7B.

Yeah, I bought the S from Hickey's. They said it would make me sound like a pipe organ.

Bigger inside diameter, smaller throat. We'll see.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:14 pm

Quote from: robcat2075 on Dec 07, 2017, 08:20PMI double the motion.

A Bb tuba would make the most sense to a trombone player without previous valve experience and the 3/4 school models can be found used cheaply. I have one.

I also have an Eb tuba. It's more like a euphonium than a real bass instrument.

Robcat,

You kind of speak of it in a deprecating kind of way, but I'm interested in your tuba. First, you say it's kind of like a big euphonium. How tall is it? What's the bell size? What year was it born? How much does it weigh? I've watched your video a couple times, and I think the tone is ok. Do you know of other horns like yours?

I think that's the kind of thing that will work for me. A BBb, even 3/4 is just too much horn for me, and I don't need all that low range. Something closer to the euphonium will be helpful. Is there anything you could say about it or how to find one on the used market?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:31 pm

His looks like mine, which is a Conn Worcester (made shortly after they bought out the Isaac Fiske company) from 1892. Instruments from that period all seem similar (I've seen several).

A 3 valve Eb like mine will come pretty cheap; generally under $500 and maybe even under $200. My tuba has a shank slightly larger than a bass trombone and I use a contra mouthpiece on it. If you lived closer I'd be happy to let you try mine, but there's no way I can send it to you (besides, it's the main one I play when I need to play tuba).

Here's one that needs a little TLC (and a waterkey):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-C-G-Conn-Tuba/292337353748?hash=item4410aa0414:g:TA0AAOSwh1haEa59

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:42 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 06, 2018, 07:31PMHere's one that needs a little TLC (and a waterkey):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-C-G-Conn-Tuba/292337353748?hash=item4410aa0414:g:TA0AAOSwh1haEa59

Thanks for the link. This horn represents what scares me about the combination of my ignorance and the plethora of tuba options. How do you know it's an Eb? High or low pitch? Do the valves or slides work? Holes in tubes? Its represented as not working, so thete might be a whole lot more wrong with it than he discloses. Would it be too insulting to offer him $250 because of the lack of info and the risk it can't be fixed?

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:04 am

Quote from: jackbird on Jan 03, 2018, 06:50AMIt's not just about the low notes, which initially I can't play anyway. The 4th valve plays a huge role in intonation, which needs to be pretty good if this instrument isn't going to eff with my ears.

There really is no valve scheme that solves it all. My preference is the 3-valve compensating tuba to address the intonation problem.

But you have that 4th valve now. When a double low C comes up at the philharmonic, you will have no excuses!

Quote from: jackbird on Jan 06, 2018, 07:14PMRobcat,

You kind of speak of it in a deprecating kind of way,
I call it skepticism

Quotebut I'm interested in your tuba. First, you say it's kind of like a big euphonium. How tall is it? What's the bell size? What year was it born? How much does it weigh?
My Eb tuba is 28" tall, the bell is 12.5" wide, it weighs about 9 lbs.

It was made by Goumat & Co around 1900 A.D.

QuoteI've watched your video a couple times, and I think the tone is ok.

I think it's the best-sounding $29 tuba on the planet.

QuoteDo you know of other horns like yours?
It's the only Eb tuba I've ever encountered personally and I've never heard of anyone else having a Goumat of any sort.

QuoteI think that's the kind of thing that will work for me. A BBb, even 3/4 is just too much horn for me, and I don't need all that low range. Something closer to the euphonium will be helpful. Is there anything you could say about it or how to find one on the used market?
I think you should stick with the 3/4 tuba you have. I don't think an Eb is enough of a tuba to do the job.

The first time I tried a tuba was in high school when I brought home a sousaphone over the summer. My trombone mouthpiece at the time was a Bach 11C so the tuba mouthpiece felt impossibly large. I got some notes and scales going but nothing musical. I didn't have the air for it.

The second time I tried tuba was the last year of college after I had been playing bass trombone for several years on a Schilke 60 which is about as large as BT mouthpieces get. A tuba mouthpiece still felt too large to me so I wrapped a bit of tape on the end of my Schilke and used that in the tuba. I was able to play the conventional tuba range with appropriate sound and flexibility with that.

The third time I tried tuba was in recent years. I got the 3/4 tuba first and experimented with both the Schilke 60 and a conventional [s]Conn[/s] Bach 24AW. Each had pluses and minuses for me but experimenting back and forth over several months I got more comfortable with the regular tuba size and began to feel it was feasible.

Later I got a 4/4 tuba. The Schilke 60 didn't work well on that so I stuck with the 24AW. I got it to be manageable although I feel like my sound is on the pinched side. If I put years into it, as real tuba players do, I might fix that but it's not a priority in the grand scheme of life.

I think the leap from trombone mouthpiece to tuba mouthpiece is a huge one and the time you've had so far is not enough. The transition took a long time for me.

I suspect a smaller tuba mouthpiece would make sense for what you are doing right now (I haven't read the whole thread. Maybe you are already on a small mouthpiece.)

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:48 pm

" Yammie 103 clone with 4 valves...."

When I studied tuba with the late great John Griffiths he was doing R&D for Yamaha. Yamaha was trying to do an endorsement deal with The Canadian Brass. Yamaha built the horns-- Schilke rebuilt them and cleaned them up, and gave them to the Brats. Then Yamaha introduced the stock horns that were supposed to be copies of the Brats horns-- except they weren't.

The 103 was designed to be a quintet horn with 4 valves in CC for Chuck Dallenbach. Yamaha copied the Dallenbach horn and beefed it up to BBb, and threw out the 4th valve. That was the 103. There was a 4 valve model in BBb that you'll NEVER find used. They're obsolete for about the past 30 years, like the 103.

So, a Yammie 103 clone with 4 valves is never to be found, but if you did, it'd be THE ONE. The original owners never let them go-- ever.

A note about Eb tubas. Modern tubas in Eb designed for Brit brass band work, and the very serious professional models designed for orchestral use, have 17" to `19" bells. If you want to go to TubeNet and get the 10 million page answer about which is better, suit yourself.
The smaller obsolete Eb tuba which is not big enough for any modern use, has the 12" to 13" bell.

John brought the original prototype BBb 103 to my lessons. He loved it. I loved it. I bought one, 25 years later.....and found it to be impossible to be played in tune by an adult with a proper mouthpiece.

Two things to look out for on any tuba--mouthpieces can be bought to make any tuba play better in tune-- the other ones make fantastically expensive paper weights and usually make 99.99999% of tubas play more out of tune....hence the hoards of amateur tubists who use community band owned tubas and still spend $1K a year on mouthpieces. ha ha hah hahaha

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:15 pm

Bonesmarsh,
The 4 valve 103 exists as a Jinbao clone, I think called a 355. http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-TU520L__BBb_Tuba.php

I think I can find a voice for the small obsolete bass Eb. Even if its only in my practice room or my low brass quartet. I know my limitations and I don't have any interest in playing a contrabass.

Yeah, the dreaded mouthpiece quest. Well, I'll just find Mr Elliott at a show and have him sort me out. Avoid the expensive guess work.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:36 am

Quote from: jackbird on Jan 07, 2018, 06:15PMBonesmarsh,
The 4 valve 103 exists as a Jinbao clone, I think called a 355. http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-TU520L__BBb_Tuba.php

I think I can find a voice for the small obsolete bass Eb. Even if its only in my practice room or my low brass quartet. I know my limitations and I don't have any interest in playing a contrabass.

Yeah, the dreaded mouthpiece quest. Well, I'll just find Mr Elliott at a show and have him sort me out. Avoid the expensive guess work.
Be careful about calling the Eb obsolete, here in the states they have become less common than they used to be, but they are very common over in the UK, and still used quite a bit in Brass bands. There are many Eb players around who will take offense at you calling their instrument obsolete.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:27 pm

Quote from: Radar on Jan 08, 2018, 11:36AMBe careful about calling the Eb obsolete, here in the states they have become less common than they used to be, but they are very common over in the UK, and still used quite a bit in Brass bands. There are many Eb players around who will take offense at you calling their instrument obsolete.

Maybe you didn't catch it, but I was repeating bonesmarsh's snark in a possibly sarcastic tone
QuoteBonesmarsh: The smaller obsolete Eb tuba which is not big enough for any modern useI don't share that assessment.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:53 pm

Nothing wrong with the small Eb tuba. I used mine as a double in Big Band (different sound from bass bone). I also used it in a reading band (20 pieces) where it filled out the ensemble just fine.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:37 pm

The tiny version is obsolete, and as I recall, all beginner band methods 50 years ago had special Eb tuba books as standard issue. The 13" belled versions were sold as 3/4 size models for kids to begin on-- especially transplanted former trumpet players who got stuck on them to shore up weak bass lines.

Lots of other bizarre 3/4 size Eb horns around in the early 1900s...cavalry mounted bands used them. Helicons were in Eb. Sousies were in Eb.

The MODERN Eb tuba, with 17" to 19" bell is alive and well, and in terms of sheer numbers likely is in more hands than CC tubas. Modern Ebs, as played by John Fletcher, are the best of all possible tuba worlds-- but you still have to practice them 20 hours a day, and all the expensive mouthpieces won't save you....TubeNet has two choices for modern large Eb. No point mentioning the two choieces....those debates are raging as I write this....

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:26 am

Oy, the Cimbasso.
This was the sound I've been hearing in my head. No wonder I can't settle on a tuba. I never wanted a tuba at all. I wanted a cimbasso! "Fiddle section exterminator"?!?!?!?

https://youtu.be/mEa4VqsXBug?t=19m10s

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:11 pm

You will be looking far and wide to find an inexpensive cimbasso. I think Wessex has about the best value, and you still will be paying a couple of thousand US$.

Time to look at cost/benefits.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:16 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 09, 2018, 12:11PMYou will be looking far and wide to find an inexpensive cimbasso. I think Wessex has about the best value, and you still will be paying a couple of thousand US$.

Time to look at cost/benefits.

If I were looking at this from a financially pragmatic point of view, I'd sell all my horns for recycling scrap. I'm not making any money at this, or not enough to justify another horn, anyway.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:39 pm

Is a cimbasso conceptually very different from a valve contrabass trombone?

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:44 pm

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 09, 2018, 01:39PMIs a cimbasso conceptually very different from a valve contrabass trombone?

Don't think so. Cimbasso can have 5 rotary valves,and slide kickers. And a cow catcher for slow clarinet players.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:11 pm

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 09, 2018, 01:39PMIs a cimbasso conceptually very different from a valve contrabass trombone?
A moderna cimbasso is a valve contrabass trombone.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:38 pm

I'd stick with the 3/4 tuba for a while until you get you low chops working well.