Independent Sterling King Duo Gravis Bass Trombone ???

ttf_Bob Weller · Post by **ttf_Bob Weller** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:38 am

Has anybody else noticed this unusual independent version?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/King-6B-Duo-Gravis-Silversonic-Professional-Bass-Trombone-Bb-F-Gb-D-NICE-QuinnTh/263346992424?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D41375%26meid%3D152007761a3243bea81b39ba298a129f%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D263355173748&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850

I have never seen a Duo Gravis from this era that was independent and it is a Silver Sonic.

Thanks, Bob

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:53 am

It's not a 6B, it's a 7B. The 7B was available in SilverSonic as well.

ttf_Tbonedude · Post by **ttf_Tbonedude** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:03 am

For a short while, the Duo Gravis name was applied to the 7B, which would make sense in this case. Notice that "6B" is nowhere to be found in the bell engraving.

It could also be custom. The configuration of the tubing where it exits the valve isn't characteristic of Kings from that era. Most had a right-angle bend where this horn has a straight exit from the rear of the valve. The linkages don't match each other, with the F-trigger being square stock and the Gb-trigger being round.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:07 am

For comparison, here's my 1980 King 7B

ttf_Bob Weller · Post by **ttf_Bob Weller** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:16 am

I was noticing a couple things that made me curious. The serial number still on the slide instead of a slide number. Earlier style straps in case bell mount. Engraving on the bell.

Thanks, Bob

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:25 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Dec 05, 2017, 11:07AMFor comparison, here's my 1980 King 7B

That's a significantly different wrap. Note the hard turns on the return side of each attachment. Later 7B's did flatten out the forward loop on the inlet side of the attachments, but I do not think think they ever changed the return side (the current Wessex 7B clone still has the same sharp bends).

My vote is for a custom, either by a very good independent shop or a factory special/prototype.

Hey, Jonathan Hodgetts! If you intend to continue making the PBF562, you might want to consider changing the attachments wraps to incorporate the smoother transitions that this horn has.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:28 am

I don't think this is the right case for the instrument. The accessory box toward the back end interferes with the F-slide. My King 7B had a case with no accessory box back there.

Note that King cases of the period had a pair of plastic tabs that held the bell brace. These tabs would break and you had to figure out something else to keep the bell section in position. Plastic foam was a common choice.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:48 am

Quinn was kind enough to include a clear pic of the serial number. 494007, which dates the instrument to sometime around 1974-1975. Too early for a 2107. It's a DG (Model 1490).

The way the returns are set up reminds me of some of George McCracken's work of French horns. Of course, there's lots of other people who do stuff like that.

Bruce, you may be right about the case. The bell barely fits. You can also see where someone has cut away part of the partition of the slide pocket. Maybe someone wanted a smaller case so they shoehorned it into one for a 5B/1480?

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:55 am

agreed, a 5B case-- but not an H.N. White era one, as those were the alligator hide finish.

If it were from '74/'75 it should have nylon linkage on the valves somewhere. A mystery for sure.

Could it just be a later model with a sterling DG bell grafted on....much less work that way?

ttf_EWadie99 · Post by **ttf_EWadie99** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:10 pm

Even though I was disappointed to find out that it's not an actual 7B silversonic, but it's also interesting to hear the fact that they did exsist at one point!

It looks to me to be a modified King Duo Gravis (6B) SS with a King 7B valve section added by a previous owner.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:42 pm

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 05, 2017, 11:55AMagreed, a 5B case-- but not an H.N. White era one, as those were the alligator hide finish.

If it were from '74/'75 it should have nylon linkage on the valves somewhere. A mystery for sure.

Could it just be a later model with a sterling DG bell grafted on....much less work that way?More likely a DG with a custom valve section. The slide is from 74-75, so it's definitely not just a DG bell grafted onto a 7B or 8B.

DG bell (and marked as such)
DG slide
King valves with black plastic stop plates
OEM King linkage on the f valve
Custom linkage on Gb valve. It still uses the plastic part that the string attaches to, but the metal lever is unlike those used on the 7B, 8B, or Benge 290.
Custom attachment wraps, similar to 7B/8B, but with improvements.

Based on the stop plates, I'd guess that the valves are probably newer than the rest of the horn, likely from a 7B. The plastic parts in the linkage look like the pics of 7B/8B parts I see on the web. For some reason, they felt it necessary to fabricate a new lever for the Gb valve. Instead of pushing the valve open and pulling it closed, the new lever pulls it open and pushes it closed.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:33 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Dec 05, 2017, 02:42PMMore likely a DG with a custom valve section. The slide is from 74-75, so it's definitely not just a DG bell grafted onto a 7B or 8B.

DG bell (and marked as such)
DG slide
King valves with black plastic stop plates
OEM King linkage on the f valve
Custom linkage on Gb valve. It still uses the plastic part that the string attaches to, but the metal lever is unlike those used on the 7B, 8B, or Benge 290.
Custom attachment wraps, similar to 7B/8B, but with improvements.

Based on the stop plates, I'd guess that the valves are probably newer than the rest of the horn, likely from a 7B. The plastic parts in the linkage look like the pics of 7B/8B parts I see on the web. For some reason, they felt it necessary to fabricate a new lever for the Gb valve. Instead of pushing the valve open and pulling it closed, the new lever pulls it open and pushes it closed.

... and the thought plickens!

Take a close look at the stop-plate side of the valve. I don't think King ever did those on a "real" 7B. In fact, they stopped doing that removable plate on the 6B Duo Gravis. I'm going to guess those are BOTH regular Duo Gravis valves. This would explain the difference in tubing layout noted earlier in this thread. I think this was a "real" Duo Gravis, retrofitted to a (then) new 7B tubing set, using 6B valves... only two parts to custom-fabricate.

I wish I could try this horn!

Are we all SURE King made a Silver Sonic version of the 7B? I haven't found one in the few catalogs I've been able to see PDFs of.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:38 pm

Quote from: boneagain on Dec 05, 2017, 05:33PM

Are we all SURE King made a Silver Sonic version of the 7B? I haven't found one in the few catalogs I've been able to see PDFs of.

Anecdotal, but I've never seen one. Plenty of the 6B, 2016, Duo Gravis, but never an independent stock SilverSonic.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:04 am

So, whoever cobbled this together had access to the new 7/8B attachment bends, the "old" 6B valves (complete with removable bottom cap and hold-down rings), new plastic stop plates and string arms, and means to custom fabricate a couple 45 degree legs.

I'll ask Mr. McCracken about this when I see him today. I suspect we might learn something by emailing Chuck Ward, though.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:15 pm

I brought the pictures to George McCracken this morning. He cannot specifically recall building that. He DID say that the angles coming out of the valves (one 45 instead of a 45 and a 90) are much like what he originally worked on on the first iterations of the 7B. He also noted that there were a NUMBER of semi-custom requests handled at King around this time. He said it IS possible he put it together. Long time ago

Actually, he smiled two or more times, but enough emoticons.

Considering the parts used, HIGH likelihood it came from the factory this way, and was a very special order.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:21 pm

The first listing he had it for $400 less. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F263355173748

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:45 am

Something I've noticed is that for a long long time there were no DGs for sale anywhere. And nobody wanted them.

The peanut gallery on TTF chirps positively, and horns show up for sale at inflated prices. Watch for it-- a good thread about a Conn 70H, and Conn 70Hs show up for sale at high prices.

Threads about obscure Conn basses, and 83Hs show up at high prices.

One thing about the old DG, and I bought mine in 1979, is that it arrived on the cusp of the dependent/independent wars. Independent horns were offered to counter the small size of the Bach valves in the 50B2 line. So, the independent wars were on.
Not a whole lot of R&D being done to improve a horn to make it feel and sound like a single valve horn, just a lot of soldering and bending. Usually it did not work, but it made a lot of stinker horns show up on the market to capture market share when the double valve in-lines took market share.
Follow the money, and you'll find the root of all R&D.

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:28 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 07, 2017, 05:45AMSomething I've noticed is that for a long long time there were no DGs for sale anywhere. And nobody wanted them.

The peanut gallery on TTF chirps positively, and horns show up for sale at inflated prices. Watch for it-- a good thread about a Conn 70H, and Conn 70Hs show up for sale at high prices.

Threads about obscure Conn basses, and 83Hs show up at high prices.

Perhaps we should regularly start threads talking about how terrible these instruments are. Worth a shot?

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:53 am

There was a thread claiming that 83H's are great? I would love to see that!

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:46 am

Check the classifieds.

10 years ago nobody outside the hard-core OCD bone community knew the word "Elkhart." See?

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:50 am

Quote from: greenbean on Dec 07, 2017, 06:53AMThere was a thread claiming that 83H's are great? I would love to see that!How soon we forget:
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,103102.msg1221391.html

ttf_John Beers Jr. · Post by **ttf_John Beers Jr.** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:06 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 07, 2017, 05:45AMSomething I've noticed is that for a long long time there were no DGs for sale anywhere. And nobody wanted them.

The peanut gallery on TTF chirps positively, and horns show up for sale at inflated prices. Watch for it-- a good thread about a Conn 70H, and Conn 70Hs show up for sale at high prices.

Threads about obscure Conn basses, and 83Hs show up at high prices.

One thing about the old DG, and I bought mine in 1979, is that it arrived on the cusp of the dependent/independent wars. Independent horns were offered to counter the small size of the Bach valves in the 50B2 line. So, the independent wars were on.
Not a whole lot of R&D being done to improve a horn to make it feel and sound like a single valve horn, just a lot of soldering and bending. Usually it did not work, but it made a lot of stinker horns show up on the market to capture market share when the double valve in-lines took market share.
Follow the money, and you'll find the root of all R&D.

I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing. There are a lot of missing horns out there, and calling attention to them and bringing them back to the market may be able to help some low-income players.

A great example of this is the UMI-era 88HO's.

You NEVER see one for sale, but they must have made tens of thousands of the things between 1980 (or whatever) and 2000 with string-linkages and open wraps, but you'll never actually see one for sale. Either they were all destroyed by rambunctious middle/highschoolers (I could believe that perhaps 30% were destroyed, but 95% is a bit excessive) or they're just sitting in attics because nobody has remembered them for years and years. Sure, they might not carry the same panache as an Elkhart-era horn, but they work perfectly well.

Wouldn't it be good for everyone if 10,000 professional-quality Bb/F trombones hit the market in approximately the $1000 price range?

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:42 am

Quote from: John Beers Jr. on Dec 07, 2017, 09:06AMWouldn't it be good for everyone if 10,000 professional-quality Bb/F trombones hit the market in approximately the $1000 price range?Good for everyone except the people trying to sell similar horns for $2000.

ttf_Stan · Post by **ttf_Stan** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:17 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 07, 2017, 05:45AMSomething I've noticed is that for a long long time there were no DGs for sale anywhere. And nobody wanted them.

The peanut gallery on TTF chirps positively, and horns show up for sale at inflated prices. Watch for it-- a good thread about a Conn 70H, and Conn 70Hs show up for sale at high prices.

Threads about obscure Conn basses, and 83Hs show up at high prices.

Man, I thought the exact same thing when that 83H showed up for sale. The wording of the description was too close to the thread content to be a coincidence.

WE'RE TREND SETTERS

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:52 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Dec 07, 2017, 07:50AMHow soon we forget:
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,103102.msg1221391.html

Well, that is the classified ad. Where is the positive thread that preceded this?

Isn't that what bonesmarsh is talking about? I searched for 83H threads in the Instruments section. Pretty much all negative comments about the model.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:35 pm

Quote from: greenbean on Yesterday at 05:52 PMWell, that is the classified ad. Where is the positive thread that preceded this?

Isn't that what bonesmarsh is talking about? I searched for 83H threads in the Instruments section. Pretty much all negative comments about the model.

Yup, I can't remember a positive comment about one.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:00 am

My comments about the 70H and 83H illustrate the same thing, from opposite directions.

70H threads are generally positive, and then one or more show up online for sale by folk who remember they have one in the closet. A discontinued 75 year old horn that would have fetched $200 10 years ago, now commands a $2,000 price...and is likely worth twice that, even for a horn being 75 years old.

The seller of the 83H, finding nothing positive online, started their own positive comments, within the classified ad. A $200 horn 10 years ago, the seller wanted a lot more, just based one one positive comment-- their own.

Check the mouthpieces threads current. Some comments and questions about K&M mouthpieces from Malta. They were introduced here on TTF with a huge splash and lots of positive feedback. Until you looked closer, went to the K&M website and found out the new TTF members being positive were all from Malta, and endorsing K&M as business partners. That is called shilling.

A TTF member frequently wrote positive comments about the horns offered by their company--without having it disclosed that they were employees of that company. They were called on it, and now have their affiliation clearly marked in their address box. That was not shilling, as they did not play the horns they endorsed themselves, but it needed addressing to keep things online free and obvious.

Read with comprehension, folks.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:00 am

My comments about the 70H and 83H illustrate the same thing, from opposite directions.

70H threads are generally positive, and then one or more show up online for sale by folk who remember they have one in the closet. A discontinued 75 year old horn that would have fetched $200 10 years ago, now commands a $2,000 price...and is likely worth twice that, even for a horn being 75 years old.

The seller of the 83H, finding nothing positive online, started their own positive comments, within the classified ad. A $200 horn 10 years ago, the seller wanted a lot more, just based one one positive comment-- their own.

Check the mouthpieces threads current. Some comments and questions about K&M mouthpieces from Malta. They were introduced here on TTF with a huge splash and lots of positive feedback. Until you looked closer, went to the K&M website and found out the new TTF members being positive were all from Malta, and endorsing K&M as business partners. That is called shilling.

A TTF member frequently wrote positive comments about the horns offered by their company--without having it disclosed that they were employees of that company. They were called on it, and now have their affiliation clearly marked in their address box. That was not shilling, as they did not play the horns they endorsed themselves, but it needed addressing to keep things online free and obvious.

Read with comprehension, folks.