Full sound, whisper tones etc.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:12 pm

I am in the process of experimentation (more mentally than physically, as I am still recovering from hernia surgery) in the making and using (mostly for jazz I guess) different nuances/colours between full sound (as in classical) and airy sound up to the whispering/sub tones (in other words how to make chops flexible enough to be able to make any of the above at will (not interested in double buzz and airy sound provoked by embouchure and endurance deficiencies).

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:20 am

Quote from: bonenick on Nov 12, 2017, 02:12PMI am in the process of experimentation (more mentally than physically, as I am still recovering from hernia surgery) in the making and using (mostly for jazz I guess) different nuances/colours between full sound (as in classical) and airy sound up to the whispering/sub tones (in other words how to make chops flexible enough to be able to make any of the above at will (not interested in double buzz and airy sound provoked by embouchure and endurance deficiencies).

I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. I have not had a hernia surgery but I suppose you should be careful for a couple of weeks. Then you could start to develop your sound. It is good to practice softer nuances for a lot of reasons and if you are limited to only the comfortable register within the staff this could be the register to work at. Personally I would go for an open classical tone without airy or fuzzy noises. There are personalities in jazz who has integrated such noises into their sound, but I think it is more by accident. It is a shortcoming that they have turned to their personal signum. They might not be proud but we have learned to recognise and accept it. One player I come to think of is Kay Winding, one of my favourites.

/Tom

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:41 am

I am not playing for now, nor I am doing anything that requires substantial physical efforts (doctor's orders)

To make it really clear:

1. Full sound - no need for explication

2. Whisper tone, aka airy fuzzy sound:

I believe that you can, and probably should practice those. But made at will, not by mistake or as caused by excessive playing or deficient embouchure.

From my discussion on the subject with Sam Burtis:

"Yes. very quiet playing at the very least. Also...and this is similar in nature...what I call "half-buzzes," where the m'pce (in or out of the horn)...is held so lightly in contact w/the chops that one can buzz whole scales w/out moving the slide, and do it very quietly."

Hope Sam doesn't mind me sharing that.

https://youtu.be/jztGQW7fml8
https://youtu.be/VfL2tedA8xY

Those are two different approaches, but both are related somehow to my questions. Hope that makes it cluster. I'll check Kay Whinding though now. Lots of time for listening music

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:48 am

Listen to some more of that "Wynton Shreds" video and emulate his airy, unfocused tone

Unfortunately what you're asking here goes against what many of the people here have spent a lifetime trying to push out of their playing. There are plenty of jazzers here, but even many of them would probably advocate using a focused, clear sound.

The Wynton Tone is more of a trumpet thing, I think.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:55 am

I guess that we are going nowhere with this.

Bashing Wynton is not my thing. There are others trumpet/flugelish players who used it for a certain effect, and did it very efficiently, as far as I am concerned.

True, never heard any low brass jazzers do that. It may be a trumpet/Flügel Horn thing only.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:57 am

I've heard Conrad do it.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:19 am

Heard several NYC or former NYC players use the effect. Doug is right, you can hear it on his album Sketches of Spain in the cadenza on track 1 before the multiphonics I believe. Jeff Busch out here in Pittsburgh also uses a lot in his playing. I can sort of emulate it by using a technique similar to circular breathing... but without the circular part. You basically force additional air through the mouthpiece beyond what the tone requires. Its a balancing act, because too much and the tone stops.

Probably the best way to work on the effect is to play a pitch and back off on volume until you're only blowing air but no pitch is coming out. Then start buzzing again and keep the air flow the same but add the pitch back in.

ttf_growlerbox · Post by **ttf_growlerbox** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:34 pm

Not sure if it's exactly what you're all talking about, but Glenn Ferris uses this sort of "half-tone," breathy effect. I would call it anything but unfocussed. His trombone/double bass/cello trio album "Face Lift" is full of beautiful examples.

And if Harrison has anything to say about it, I'll see him down at the oval after school ...

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:39 pm

Yes, I've heard Glenn Ferris do that too.

What Matt described is actually an exercise I use.

ttf_growlerbox · Post by **ttf_growlerbox** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:42 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 13, 2017, 12:39PMWhat Matt described is actually an exercise I use.

This bit?

Quote from: Matt K on Nov 13, 2017, 10:19AMProbably the best way to work on the effect is to play a pitch and back off on volume until you're only blowing air but no pitch is coming out. Then start buzzing again and keep the air flow the same but add the pitch back in.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:49 pm

Yes

I call it "Exploring pppppppppppp"

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:19 pm

I like that effect. It's different and valid when done with taste. It's not hard.... you just have to experiment a little. Not in the orchestra of course

Chris Stearn

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:55 pm

I think it sounds great when Wynton does it but in my mind it's not necessarily a sound I'm pursuing on trombone.. to each his own I suppose

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:57 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Nov 13, 2017, 10:19AMHeard several NYC or former NYC players use the effect
....

Probably the best way to work on the effect is to play a pitch and back off on volume until you're only blowing air but no pitch is coming out. Then start buzzing again and keep the air flow the same but add the pitch back in.

Isn't this a way to find out how to play the softest you can? To have a lot of air passing that is not the tone is totally beyond my scope. What I try to achieve with my everyday practice is to get the maximum tone out of the 5.5 litres of air I,ve got. Probably what is described as full tone. Why?
1. To save air and still be able to play long phrases with vibrato and controlled tone musically.
2. To be able to be heard in the first place.
3. To be able to play dynamically.
4. Have tone that blends.
I guess the fuzzy/airy tone practice is for mic or is it just a way of practice?

/Tom

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:02 pm

I'm not talking about "a lot of air" passing but not vibrating. It's more like learning to play at a whisper of volume and then backing off of that. The only purpose in continuing to blow at all is so you don't relax - you're still playing even if there's no sound.

This is my version of a Reinhardt exercise. It promotes efficiency in the buzz, not inefficiency.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:11 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 13, 2017, 11:02PMI'm not talking about "a lot of air" passing but not vibrating. It's more like learning to play at a whisper of volume and then backing off of that. The only purpose in continuing to blow at all is so you don't relax - as if you're still playing even if there's no sound.

Okey, so it is a way of practice. By doing this you probably discover (in time) that you can do a lot with a very small amount of air. It is beneficial to play very soft. I try to be as economic with air as possible and playing soft helps a lot to find out how much is absolutely needed. Often little air can sound more than you think. My discovery after playing as soft as possible and for as long as possible.

/Tom

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:00 am

The whisper tone is very soft and is a way of practise. the "halftone buzz" is a way of freebuzz/into the horn, you buzz with just a little contact with the mpc. It is used in performance (and practised of course).
Another effect is the fuzzy tone you can get with an apperture that is "to big", that is the same effect a jazz singer could use like a whispered woice. Not as soft as the whisper ton and not the same sound as the "halftone buzz".
The Swedish composer/arranger Bengt-Arne Wallin asked for that effect sometimes calling it subtone, Lasse Samuelsson wanted the same effect calling it "lose lip". For a "full tone" the lips do touch in the vibrating cycle (like in a full sound singing the vocalchords touch) in the "subtone" the lips hardly touch, like in a whispered song. The Sedish trombonist Olav Holmqvist was very good at this.
So there is at least three different effects in this discousion.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:46 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Nov 14, 2017, 02:00AMThe whisper tone is very soft and is a way of practise. the "halftone buzz" is a way of freebuzz/into the horn, you buzz with just a little contact with the mpc. It is used in performance (and practised of course).
Another effect is the fuzzy tone you can get with an apperture that is "to big", that is the same effect a jazz singer could use like a whispered woice. Not as soft as the whisper ton and not the same sound as the "halftone buzz".
The Swedish composer/arranger Bengt-Arne Wallin asked for that effect sometimes calling it subtone, Lasse Samuelsson wanted the same effect calling it "lose lip". For a "full tone" the lips do touch in the vibrating cycle (like in a full sound singing the vocalchords touch) in the "subtone" the lips hardly touch, like in a whispered song. The Sedish trombonist Olav Holmqvist was very good at this.
So there is at least three different effects in this discousion.

Thank's for the explanation. To bad I never had the possibility to hear Olov do this live. Think this latter effect has complety eluded me.

/Tom

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:50 am

Who is Olov?

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:25 am

Quote from: bonenick on Nov 14, 2017, 03:50AMWho is Olov?

Olav Holmqvist is a Swedish trombonist that is unknown in TTF except for some who know anything about the Swedish Radio Band, Rias rundfunk bigband in Berlin or James Last Band. Hi is wellknown in Sweden as a great studio player.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:25 am

Quote from: bonenick on Nov 14, 2017, 03:50AMWho is Olov?

Olav Holmqvist is a Swedish trombonist that is unknown in TTF except for some who know anything about the Swedish Radio Band, Rias rundfunk bigband in Berlin or James Last Band. Hi is wellknown in Sweden as a great studio player.