The aging trombonist (and how to do it gracefully)

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:01 am

This topic has been on my mind for a while. It came up today on the Trombone Pedagogy Group on Facebook, and it warrants further discussion.

Through my years in bands, I've had friends whose playing changed. One good older friend, after some questionable long tones in the middle register, announced: "I have old man's tone". He started practicing more and working on it. Whatever he did, he got back to his old self.

Some 20 years later, I found myself wondering on how to avoid playing problems as I age. Around this time, I found an exercise on Al Kay's website with this tech tip. http://alkay.ca/documents/clinic_sheets/alkay_playloud_e.pdf
I couldn't play the 3-note self evaluation to my satisfaction until I changed my embouchure, and this has allowed me to build embouchure strength as I practice daily.

With the number of colleagues who are struggling with playing issues as they age, I've been trying to find a way to discuss this and show my friends how to deal with it. I do play with a group of pro retirees who are playing at high levels into their 80s so it can be done. Other friends are in denial.

I raised this aging topic with an 80 year old trumpeter friend, and his answer was short: "Perhaps they never had it in the first place." Ouch, but likely accurate.

What are you doing that helps you?

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:15 am

One exercise that stands out for me is this one from Jeff Reynolds.

Start at, say, F

, drop a fourth to C

, then up a fifth to G

Half notes. Use different dynamics.

Move the pattern up and down. Eg. Chromatically down to E-B-F# or up Eb-Bb-F.

Good for strength, range, tone.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:16 am

I took up the cello.

ttf_Graham Martin · Post by **ttf_Graham Martin** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:55 pm

Big problem for me!

In 2016 I was playing lead trombone in three big Swing bands, plus two Traditional Jazz bands. In 2017 I had to pull out of all these bands because of a fast declining lip, caused by a host of old age problems.

I still practice every day but nothing seems to improve the situations of no reliable top range (or even reliable tonguing at all), a rotten tone, insufficient air for long notes, and no stamina.

I do not have suggestions for exercises that improve playing in old age, because I have not found any that work. However, I do have one warning. For a while I was practicing with a Yamaha Silent Brass, which allowed me to play somewhere near my old high range. But as soon as you take out the mute, the range is gone.

This suggested to me that resistance is a factor, and therefore I got out my old Christian Lindberg Resistance Balancer. Loaded up with the maximum weights, this did help a little bit when unmuted, but nowhere near enough to resume my old playing status.

Because the range needed is a lot lower and to try an retain my interest, I have decided to return to my old concert band and sit in on second. And just do my best.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Nov 11, 2017, 11:16AMI took up the cello.

I wish I could play the cello. Closest I get to that with a stringed instrument is a yuke.

But I am going to do a lot more arranging because I have some ideas to make our local community band/s a lot more entertaining.

On the playing side, I am going to watch this topic with a great deal of interest.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:02 pm

If resistance helps the range, maybe a tighter throat and backbore will help. I don't know where you would go from a Bach 11C (maybe a Jet-Tone A?) but for example a Wick 4AL you can go to a 4BL and get a smaller aperture.

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:08 pm

What is the age that this kicks in?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:19 pm

Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 11, 2017, 03:08PMWhat is the age that this kicks in?

It's different for each of us. But it gets harder and harder to hit those really high notes. You use the middle of your range more. Suddenly the 1st trombone parts are uncomfortable.

Dunno where I am on the spectrum. We have Max Croot playing shows at 89 and I know a few guys who are under 60 and can't play a high G.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:53 pm

I don't feel like it's a range problem (for me).

It's a problem with the time it takes to get warmed up so that it sounds like the good old days, and some days it never happens.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:11 pm

Quote from: Torobone on Nov 11, 2017, 08:01AMThis topic has been on my mind for a while. It came up today on the Trombone Pedagogy Group on Facebook, and it warrants further discussion.

Through my years in bands, I've had friends whose playing changed. One good older friend, after some questionable long tones in the middle register, announced: "I have old man's tone". He started practicing more and working on it. Whatever he did, he got back to his old self.

Some 20 years later, I found myself wondering on how to avoid playing problems as I age. Around this time, I found an exercise on Al Kay's website with this tech tip. http://alkay.ca/documents/clinic_sheets/alkay_playloud_e.pdf
I couldn't play the 3-note self evaluation to my satisfaction until I changed my embouchure, and this has allowed me to build embouchure strength as I practice daily.

With the number of colleagues who are struggling with playing issues as they age, I've been trying to find a way to discuss this and show my friends how to deal with it. I do play with a group of pro retirees who are playing at high levels into their 80s so it can be done. Other friends are in denial.

I raised this aging topic with an 80 year old trumpeter friend, and his answer was short: "Perhaps they never had it in the first place." Ouch, but likely accurate.

What are you doing that helps you?

For me, it's having regular private sessions with a masterful player who understands & teaches great playing mechanics and musicality. That as well as me promoting my own health & well-being.

While I am still growing in strength and technique, there may come a time when everything I do will merely be a delay tactic. So it could be - if we somehow find a way to graph it - that a very old player now declining and me still ascending might possibly come to share a point on that graph - from a technical standpoint but probably never a musicality standpoint.

...Geezer

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:25 pm

Quote from: Graham Martin on Nov 11, 2017, 02:55PMBig problem for me!

Grah, I'm sorry to read this, but thanks for sharing. You are on my list of people on TTF who I'd like to visit, and I admire your knowledge. Admitting there is a problem is the first step to solving it.

My breakthrough 10 years ago was figuring out lip compression. This means that my note production comes more from pressing my lips together as opposed to pressing the mouthpiece into my face. Everything has improved since then, and my embouchure gains strength regularly. Starting at 53, I feel I started to really play, with sound production being simpler, more focused, etc. My performance range is up to

when soloing. With a stronger embouchure, I do parlor tricks in rehearsals like playing Ebs in 1st position and bend 2nd line Bbs down to Fs. My bass trombone range is pedal F.

I have good friends who are in various stages of aging problems. I have tried to help them, but it's hard until they see the need for help. I'm patient with them because I know I could soon have problems myself. Aging is a series of unfortunate events.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm

I think age is not as much of an issue as whether you're playing correctly for your own physical makeup. If you're not, you're going to be suffering from it at any age, just a little more able to get by when you're younger.

Longstanding incorrect habits are harder to change. Especially if you deny their existence, which a lot of players are very stubborn about.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:30 pm

My breakthrough 10 years ago was figuring out lip compression. This means that my note production comes more from pressing my lips together as opposed to pressing the mouthpiece into my face. Everything has improved since then, and my embouchure gains strength regularly.

This is interesting. When I was young, I could play high pretty much by being strong. Over the past couple years, Ive begun to appreciate theres technique involved. The MRI of the French horn player and Eli Epsteins YouTube video helped. More recently, lessons with R Sauer and Doug E got me thinking more about air stream focus, aperture and tongue placement. Still a work in progress, though.

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:25 pm

Quote from: Ellrod on Nov 11, 2017, 05:30PMMy breakthrough 10 years ago was figuring out lip compression. This means that my note production comes more from pressing my lips together as opposed to pressing the mouthpiece into my face. Everything has improved since then, and my embouchure gains strength regularly.

This is interesting. When I was young, I could play high pretty much by being strong. Over the past couple years, Ive begun to appreciate theres technique involved. The MRI of the French horn player and Eli Epsteins YouTube video helped. More recently, lessons with R Sauer and Doug E got me thinking more about air stream focus, aperture and tongue placement. Still a work in progress, though.

I look at strength in the following way. To hold my bass trombone, I have to be able to lift 6 pounds and hold it steady. To do this with facility, I need to lift a 30 lb. dumbbell.

The same thing seems to be true with my face. I look on range building exercises as a way of building strength, which helps me better hold long tones. As a young player, I used to find playing long tones as part of a chord boring. These days, I look on long notes in a musical piece as a way of checking my note production and I look for ways to improve my sound.

I rarely just practice long tones, simply because it's rather boring. Instead, it was suggested to me by Al Kay to take a popular ballad and play it at 1/4 tempo. The resulting long tones should be played to sound like music (as everything we play should).

Another small epiphany for me this year was understanding Al Kay's explanation of the use of apertures to build strength and range. A wide aperture takes a lot of air and strength, and it can peel paint from walls. In my last lesson, he had me use a larger aperture to play to high F

. I'm unlikely to use this note anywhere in this fashion, but it showed my progress.

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:14 pm

This might not be helpful to us older players, but my help the younger ones; Stay in good physical shape. Eat a a balanced diet. Drink lots of water. There are old guys running, riding bikes, rowing and other activities that they have done consistently their whole life and they are in better physical condition than the average person 10 years younger. I met Bill Watrous in the early eighties and he was was running back then. Best way to stay healthy is to stay healthy.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:39 pm

I'm only 52, but I play regularly with guys in their 70s and 80s. Physical condition is a huge factor, especially weight, but I think mental condition is equally important. One guy I know who's probably in his 60s/70s has lost his ability to make an embouchure. Hes a professor. He keeps working at, but I can see it grates on him.

I think as you age, you should look at it as if music is helping to support the rest of your life rather than the other way around. Music should make you feel better. Maybe you can't play first in the concert band any more, but you can still get together with a buddy to play duets. I really respect the older guys I play with, and want to help them keep going as long as it brings them joy.

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:03 am

Depending on who you play duets with, it can be more challenging than finding refuge in a community band. I play trios with 2 bassoonists and they can play all day moving their fingers while I work my ass off.

I too know some high level players that are struggling. Often it's aging coupled with playing issues that were not fixed. On the other side of this, a top pro, now in his 70s, played an Urbie solo at rehearsal last week and did quite a nice job. There is hope. Conditioning, lifestyle and fitness do play a big part.

My wife asked me when I expect to stop playing. I told her that every day is a gift.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:44 am

Post removed.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:00 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 11, 2017, 04:38PMI think age is not as much of an issue as whether you're playing correctly for your own physical makeup. If you're not, you're going to be suffering from it at any age, just a little more able to get by when you're younger.

Longstanding incorrect habits are harder to change. Especially if you deny their existence, which a lot of players are very stubborn about.

Right on. My first serious atempt at owning the trumpet lead range ended with an abdominal hernia (my brother is not a musician nor he has to do any hard physical labour as an IT engineer, but got one as well). Still, that made me think about my not so correct posture and less than perfect body use...

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:12 am

A book I read yesterday (Barefoot Running - yeah, long story) made a curious assertion:

After age 60, we need to become full time athletes.

The book itself isn't exactly high level, but that comment rings true. After 60, and some of us are a good way past, it takes some effort to remain physically healthy.

What effect that has on chops I dunno.

For a musician though health is not just muscle strength and flexibility, but protection of our hearing, and that better start long before it's lost. You can get some muscle tone back later but as far as I know hearing is gone for good.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:25 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 12, 2017, 05:12AMA book I read yesterday (Barefoot Running - yeah, long story) made a curious assertion:

After age 60, we need to become full time athletes.

The book itself isn't exactly high level, but that comment rings true. After 60, and some of us are a good way past, it takes some effort to remain physically healthy.

What effect that has on chops I dunno.

For a musician though health is not just muscle strength and flexibility, but protection of our hearing, and that better start long before it's lost. You can get some muscle tone back later but as far as I know hearing is gone for good.

That's a good thing to ponder. As an "elderly athlete", I can tell you that gaining strength in muscles that are already being exercised to the max is tough - unless I gain weight. When I gain weight, my strength soars. My chops tend to act the same way. As I have gained muscular weight, my range has increased. But as far as chops are concerned, there is another factor; technique. My range has gone up also b/c of better technique.

So, I figure if I wanted to - say, throw a discus further; increased strength would certainly be important. But with increased technique, I will wager there would be at least an equal gain. My conclusion is that while it may be extremely difficult for an already-in-shape "elderly athlete" to gain additional strength, it certainly is not impossible to make gains in playing when concentrating on making gains in technique. And as Pre59 pointed out, one can ALWAYS make gains in technique!

I am entering into my elderly years playing trombone and approaching it as a "technique freak". That is what I drill myself on daily for about 2 of the 4 hours I spend on my horn. The other two hours are spent playing music; whether it be band/ensemble music or ballads.

...Geezer

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:33 am

Geezer,

these are all valid points. However, I believe that as age advances, especially 55+, one should be more careful to any body abuse signals - muscles are more prone to tearing, bones to breaking, you should be more attentive to any excessive physical strain wether muscles, bones, ligaments or internal organs are concerned.

Of course, control and correct technique rules over brute force in any age.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:46 am

Quote from: bonenick on Nov 12, 2017, 05:33AMGeezer,

these are all valid points. However, I believe that as age advances, especially 55+, one should be more careful to any body abuse signals - muscles are more prone to tearing, bones to breaking, you should be more attentive to any excessive physical strain wether muscles, bones, ligaments or internal organs are concerned.

Of course, control and correct technique rules over brute force in any age.

Agreed. And that is also why a thorough warm-up is extremely important to me as an "elderly athlete". Younger players may feel they do not need to warm up to play well. Good for them; I hope they enjoy their youth! But I increasingly try for a slower, more gentle warm-up and that is a new concept for me, as I have always tended towards a quicker, harsher warm-up. Old age may suck in many ways, but it doesn't have to mean it's light's out quitting time either. Old age isn't for sissies.

...Geezer

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:14 am

Quote from: Torobone on Nov 11, 2017, 04:25PM.
My breakthrough 10 years ago was figuring out lip compression. This means that my note production comes more from pressing my lips together as opposed to pressing the mouthpiece into my face.

This brings up the question of where the compression should be focused. Should it be more vertical or more horizontal? Most likely a combination of both, but to what degree?

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:33 am

Quote from: cigmar on Nov 12, 2017, 06:14AMThis brings up the question of where the compression should be focused. Should it be more vertical or more horizontal? Most likely a combination of both, but to what degree?

Good question. Here's what I did. Before I started down the path of lip compression, I used to push the mouthpiece into my face, and I would get a red ring on my lips and face. I had played this way for about 40 years with decent but limiting results.

The first thing I did to improve was vertical compression. The result was a more controlled but noticably darker sound. After a couple of years (I'm a slow learner I guess), my teacher (Al Kay) noticed my sound was a bit strained. He suggested that I stop working so hard on the vertical aspect and try to get more lip into the mouthpiece. More lip equals greater vibration, so I got a lot more sound with less effort. It allowed me to progress a lot further. It was an easy transition for me to this better approach.

Greater compression has allowed me to control attacks, play higher, and develop facial strength. I'm greatly indebted to Al as he is the only teacher I've had that could identify what was going on and make direct suggestions for improvement. He has retired away from Toronto now, but I plan at some point to make the 3 hour drive to see him again.

I hope this is helpful. Our trombone journey is a personal one.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:15 am

Quote from: Torobone on Nov 12, 2017, 06:33AMGood question. Here's what I did. Before I started down the path of lip compression, I used to push the mouthpiece into my face, and I would get a red ring on my lips and face. I had played this way for about 40 years with decent but limiting results.

The first thing I did to improve was vertical compression. The result was a more controlled but noticably darker sound. After a couple of years (I'm a slow learner I guess), my teacher (Al Kay) noticed my sound was a bit strained. He suggested that I stop working so hard on the vertical aspect and try to get more lip into the mouthpiece. More lip equals greater vibration, so I got a lot more sound with less effort. It allowed me to progress a lot further. It was an easy transition for me to this better approach.

Greater compression has allowed me to control attacks, play higher, and develop facial strength. I'm greatly indebted to Al as he is the only teacher I've had that could identify what was going on and make direct suggestions for improvement. He has retired away from Toronto now, but I plan at some point to make the 3 hour drive to see him again.

I hope this is helpful. Our trombone journey is a personal one.

Trombonisms by Bill Watrous is a good source of info re aperture etc. First published in 1983 and gone the way of the Dodo it seems. I've never met anyone else who's even heard of it, let alone owns a copy, strange.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:15 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Nov 12, 2017, 08:15AMTrombonisms by Bill Watrous is a good source of info re aperture etc. First published in 1983 and gone way of the Dodo it seems. I've never met anyone else who's even heard of it, let alone owns a copy, strange.

I have one. It's actually by Watrous and Alan Raph (Bass Trombonist Extraordinaire). I hope it's still in print -- lots of good stuff in there.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:33 am

I have it as well; bought it a couple years ago.

...Geezer

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:07 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Nov 12, 2017, 09:15AMI have one. It's actually by Watrous and Alan Raph (Bass Trombonist Extraordinaire). I hope it's still in print -- lots of good stuff in there.

I thought I saw it on the Bonecat website.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:19 am

Quote from: cigmar on Nov 12, 2017, 06:14AMThis brings up the question of where the compression should be focused. Should it be more vertical or more horizontal? Most likely a combination of both, but to what degree?

My thinking these days is that the embouchure focuses the air stream at a particular point in the mpc which changes from register to register if not note to note, while the position of the tongue helps with the speed of the airflow). FWIW.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:23 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Nov 12, 2017, 09:15AMI have one. It's actually by Watrous and Alan Raph (Bass Trombonist Extraordinaire). I hope it's still in print -- lots of good stuff in there.

I saw him at the Bulls Head in London and had a front row seat. I noticed from time to time that he played a kind of false note, so I set about trying to re-create it.

I realised that using his aperture "model" that he might not have been quite on the best setting for that particular note. Of course I could be completely wrong, and it was an entirely musical choice, but the outcome was still the same for me, which was for to start practicing with what I guessed would be the completely wrong setting, i.e. too pinched when playing a low note and too loose with a high one, and everything in-between.

At this time I was busy playing lucrative bass/gtr gigs, so there was no real threat to my livelihood through screwing up my tbn chops.

This is the model that I use now, but it flies in the face of the current technique which is more about air speed and tongue shaping. I struggle with this idea because I can play all of my higher tones at different volumes, and with just an air start and a loose tongue.

About 9 years ago I started to play with my lower jaw pushed forward slightly, it hurt a lot to start with, but not any more, and that was a real result as well..

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:01 pm

Not to be morbid, but realistically, we all know that old age will eventually win. There. That was the elephant in the room.

Sometimes the best offense we can mount is a delay tactic.

...Geezer

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:02 pm

Quote from: Ellrod on Nov 12, 2017, 10:19AMMy thinking these days is that the embouchure focuses the air stream at a particular point in the mpc which changes from register to register if not note to note, while the position of the tongue helps with the speed of the airflow). FWIW.

FWIW, the first part of my warmup routine is to find the centre of the first note I play. This is normally a middle Bb, and when the note is centred, it is pretty obvious. I normally move the mouthpiece around as part of this process. This takes about 15 seconds.

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Nov 12, 2017, 12:01PMNot to be morbid, but realistically, we all know that old age will eventually win. There. That was the elephant in the room.

Sometimes the best offense we can mount is a delay tactic.

...Geezer

Yup, aging is inevitable. For me, it's mostly a series of unfortunate events.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:09 pm

I pretty much use the same centering warm-up, except I use slurs.

I have been on this Forum for maybe five years. I have witnessed several 'bone players quit by not being able to cope with old age and all that comes with it. I don't wish to be one of them. You only lose when you give up. And as long as you don't give up, it should be considered a win.

...Geezer

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:51 pm

Quote from: Torobone on Nov 12, 2017, 12:03PMYup, aging is inevitable. For me, it's mostly a series of unfortunate events.

Satchel Paige: Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:12 pm

I take a line from George Burns, who said something to the effect that "any day I wake up on this side of the dirt is a good day".

ttf_SMunger · Post by **ttf_SMunger** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:14 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Nov 12, 2017, 12:09PMI have been on this Forum for maybe five years. I have witnessed several 'bone players quit by not being able to cope with old age and all that comes with it. I don't wish to be one of them. You only lose when you give up. And as long as you don't give up, it should be considered a win.
...Geezer

Whoever you're referring to didn't necessarily "quit" because they "couldn't cope with old age". They may have come to a decision that it made sense to move on to other pursuits either due to pain, their playing actually making a physical ailment worse, or the inability to play at the level they demanded of themselves. You may reach the same decision some day.

ttf_Max Croot · Post by **ttf_Max Croot** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:11 pm

Hi. You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old because you stop playing. I've lost 2 wives to cancer and all I can say is thank god for music and the trombone because it helps me to cope. The older I get the better I used to be, but I still keep up my practice to do what I do. Currently playing Little Mermaid and music gives me something to look forward to and something to practice for. Eating properly, bit of exercise and no alcohol. I've seen to many old muso's go down with the grog. also look forward and keep the right state of mind. Life Happens Remember, You can't turn back the clock but you can wind it up again. Cheers Max

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:47 pm

Another age-related reason I play less (and play worse for it) is that I have more interests now. Some are musical, others not at all, but I like them and they all take time to pursue if i want to do them well.

When trombone was one of few interests it was possible to spend hours a day practicing. But now it is just one of many. I enjoy the other things partly because they are new, whereas trombone is mostly going to be retreading old ground for me.

I did bands and orchestras for years, that scene is not going to change. I'm looking for new things to do.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:11 am

You can't do it gracefully. It will be hard hard work. After age 50 you have to run twice as fast as you can , just to stand still effortlessly.

Brass players older than myself warned me. The trumpet players I worked with got up at 4AM to warm up at 5AM for 10AM church service gigs. That was a huge help, that advice.

Me? I'm 56 and have been a letter carrier (mailman) for 28 years. 7 years in the army before that. 35 years on my feet all day. Working hard. The blessing of all that? Age 56 and I could walk or work to death any kid between the ages of 20 and 40 trying to follow me. Heart and lung health off the scale from sucking wind through a balaclava covering the face in the Canadian arctic climate 6 months a year.

No way to do it gracefully. None.
Stretch daily. If it hurts, as it should, do it TWICE
No red meat. No smoking. No booze.
You want fun after age 55? A strong cup of good tea is about it.

Unfortunately I've outlived my orthopedic surgeon and my bad knee has outlived it's warranty....but I do 15 miles with a 40 lb pack daily.

Breathing hard walking 15 miles daily wit ha pack keeps my need to do breathing exercises on the horn to a minimum. Sorting mail, and reaching to 400 boxes keeps my need to do physio on the arms to minimum.

In a way I'm blessed by having a ****** brutal life...it makes playing the horn effortless. Still, I recently got into baritone in a crack brass band and really love the change to valves again. Doubling makes it fun mentally.

Grace? The grace comes at rehearsal after you torture yourself every of the preceding week and still have 100% chops and 100% body for those few hours. I'm looking forward to blowing my balls off until I'm 95. But I know it will not be fun.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:44 am

Quote from: SMunger on Nov 12, 2017, 07:14PMWhoever you're referring to didn't necessarily "quit" because they "couldn't cope with old age". They may have come to a decision that it made sense to move on to other pursuits either due to pain, their playing actually making a physical ailment worse, or the inability to play at the level they demanded of themselves. You may reach the same decision some day.

From your profile:

Gender: Male
Age: 5

Pretty mature advice for a 5-year old! Thanks for sticking up for us older guys, son.

Quote from: Max Croot on Nov 12, 2017, 11:11PMHi. You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old because you stop playing. I've lost 2 wives to cancer and all I can say is thank god for music and the trombone because it helps me to cope. The older I get the better I used to be, but I still keep up my practice to do what I do. Currently playing Little Mermaid and music gives me something to look forward to and something to practice for. Eating properly, bit of exercise and no alcohol. I've seen to many old muso's go down with the grog. also look forward and keep the right state of mind. Life Happens Remember, You can't turn back the clock but you can wind it up again. Cheers Max

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Nov 13, 2017, 04:11AMYou can't do it gracefully. It will be hard hard work. After age 50 you have to run twice as fast as you can , just to stand still effortlessly.

Brass players older than myself warned me. The trumpet players I worked with got up at 4AM to warm up at 5AM for 10AM church service gigs. That was a huge help, that advice.

Me? I'm 56 and have been a letter carrier (mailman) for 28 years. 7 years in the army before that. 35 years on my feet all day. Working hard. The blessing of all that? Age 56 and I could walk or work to death any kid between the ages of 20 and 40 trying to follow me. Heart and lung health off the scale from sucking wind through a balaclava covering the face in the Canadian arctic climate 6 months a year.

No way to do it gracefully. None.
Stretch daily. If it hurts, as it should, do it TWICE
No red meat. No smoking. No booze.
You want fun after age 55? A strong cup of good tea is about it.

Unfortunately I've outlived my orthopedic surgeon and my bad knee has outlived it's warranty....but I do 15 miles with a 40 lb pack daily.

Breathing hard walking 15 miles daily wit ha pack keeps my need to do breathing exercises on the horn to a minimum. Sorting mail, and reaching to 400 boxes keeps my need to do physio on the arms to minimum.

In a way I'm blessed by having a ****** brutal life...it makes playing the horn effortless. Still, I recently got into baritone in a crack brass band and really love the change to valves again. Doubling makes it fun mentally.

Grace? The grace comes at rehearsal after you torture yourself every of the preceding week and still have 100% chops and 100% body for those few hours. I'm looking forward to blowing my balls off until I'm 95. But I know it will not be fun.

AWESOME!

Along with the sage advice above, I might add that attitude probably plays just as strong or even a stronger role in how we age. I look around me and see grumpy older people sometimes and I wonder where they come from. Then I realize that they come mainly from grumpy younger people. Then I see happy, well-adjusted, very active older people and it makes me realize that to some degree at least, old age is a state of mind.

...Geezer

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:17 am

So:

1) Practice hard

2) Stay in shape, including cardio, stretching and some weights. Do it regularly.

3) Eat right, avoiding red meat, and for some of my friends, go vegan.

4) Stay away from alcohol

I would add:

5) Practice smart. You can accomplish a lot in 1/2 hour a day if you have the right goals and know how to do it.

6) Either love your routine or find some other way to practice. I have an 87 year old friend who still plays Kopprash, Rochut, and other things daily. Any suggestions to change his routine are not listened to. He still plays great for his age including solos in front of the band.

7) Don't do anything beyond your physical limits. The famous last words of a redneck are purported to be: "Hey fellas, watch this!". On the other side, I helped my daughter move, and I become quite adept at finding younger people to do the heavy lifting.

8) Play smart. Along with #5, I'm always looking for easier ways to improve my results. As an example, pro pitchers know how to throw a baseball at 90 mph. The general population can maybe throw 70 mph. Yes they are young, but they know about technique to get that velocity. There are better ways to play trombone that are easier, use less air, and are better musically. I'm still making progress.

9) Remember to love music. If it isn't fun, find out why.

10) Be honest with yourself. One main difference I've found between good pros and bad amateurs is objective self-criticism. An amateur might say "That was pretty good", and get it right about 50-70% of the time. A pro will say: "That was ok, but I can do better" and work to improve. Perfect every time is unattainable, but it's a better target than pretty good. If your playing starts to really suffer, fix it or move down the section.

11) Forget abstinence in #3 & 4, but cut back. At 63, and now off business trips, I can finally manage my weight. Instead of a good, big steak for dinner, my wife and I split one and often have enough for a lunch or two. That happens once per month, and beef happens in smaller portions once per week. I'm down 20 lbs this year. In the past, we all had a beer at our chair during swing band gigs and rehearsals. Now, I might have a drink when I get home.

12) Get smaller equipment. I have already bought a single trigger bass for the eventuality where my double trigger gets to be too much. You may find it easier to play a .508 rather than a .547.

13) Don't hold back the up and coming young players. Like #10, be honest and helpful. Let them have a turn at solos, etc.

ttf_Nanook · Post by **ttf_Nanook** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:17 am

A few years back I had the pleasure of seeing Dick Nash and Harold Betters play, I think it was on both of their 85th Birthdays. Nash was hitting some incredibly high notes and Harold was as good as ever...It was an enjoyable and inspirational evening of music...

Since I started playing really late in life, I like to say half Jokingly, " I hope I get decent before I die"...

I guess we're all doing the best we can...

Nanook

ttf_ctivey · Post by **ttf_ctivey** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:33 pm

Quote from: Nanook on Nov 13, 2017, 09:17AM A few years back I had the pleasure of seeing Dick Nash and Harold Betters play, I think it was on both of their 85th Birthdays. Nash was hitting some incredibly high notes and Harold was as good as ever...It was an enjoyable and inspirational evening of music...

Dick Nash (age 89) took a few solos at the ITF this summer and sounded great. Bill Watrous (age 78) was there too, swinging hard. Both had amazing high ranges.

+1 to the early morning routine - I (age 55) spend 1.5-2 hr every morning doing buzzing, lip slurs, long tones, playing loud, etc., just to keep up with the college kids in rehearsal later in the day. Absent strength training, we all start to lose muscle mass at about 4%/decade starting in our 40s, so there's definitely a sense of running faster and faster to stay in the same place.

I also have benefited from teachers, although my current one is retiring. Can anyone recommend teachers who have experience working with older folks and willing to work through Skype?

This topic is great! Nice to see others' perspectives on a topic I've considered a good bit.

Chris

ttf_ctivey · Post by **ttf_ctivey** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:37 pm

One more thing - Pablo Casals, the cellist, was asked at age 81 why he continues to practice 4-5 hours every day. He is said to have replied, "Because I feel that I am just beginning to make some progress!"

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:03 pm

I do all of my practice standing, hopefully to avoid deep vein "trombosis"..

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:11 pm

Well, here I am still in the gig I won back in 1984.... will be 62 next month.
What's it like now compared to back then ?
Overall..... EASIER.
The physical act of playing is at it's most efficient.... high low, soft loud... still works.
I know most of the rep. Done the standard stuff many times.... it's still fun and gives my brain a workout, but I am more comfortable.
So, you say, there must be downsides.....
Yup.... eyesight is the biggest one.... it's not bad, but not as good as it was, and I have yet to find glasses that I really like.... upside is that I remember music quicker because that makes life easier.
Hearing is okay.... a bit off the top, but I have no issues with a gig playing quarter tones this week.
I do get more tired... not on the gig... travelling.... the back end of last week I played in Inverness Thursday night, drove to Edinburgh Friday morning, did afternoon and evening rehearsals there and morning and afternoon Saturday, then drove back to Inverness for an evening show. Sunday I drove back to Glasgow. The rest of Sunday I was out of it. Tomorrow is Glasgow, Wednesday Edinburgh, Thursday and Friday Huddersfield and Saturday Glasgow, Sunday Edinburgh, Monday Perth, Tuesday Edinburgh, Wednesday Glasgow.... you get the picture. Driving gets tougher.
I still want to get better on trombone and enjoy practice.
So many people go on about how much harder it gets, so I am quite surprised at the 'business-as-usual' way things are up to now.
Nobody is getting younger.... but it's okay.... honest.

Chris Stearn

ttf_Nanook · Post by **ttf_Nanook** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:47 pm

M. Stern I went and had my ophthalmologist examine my eyes for the distance that my music stand sits from my eyes...Worked really well for me... I used old frames and it cost me around $50... Now I'm considering getting the very top portion of the lens made for long distance viewing so I can see the conductor/audience better in my recently joined community band...Depending on the cost I may go that route...

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:07 pm

Quote from: Nanook on Nov 13, 2017, 01:47PMM. Stern I went and had my ophthalmologist examine my eyes for the distance that my music stand sits from my eyes...Worked really well for me... I used old frames and it cost me around $50... Now I'm considering getting the very top portion of the lens made for long distance viewing so I can see the conductor/audience better in my recently joined community band...Depending on the cost I may go that route...

Just had such a set made.... didn't feel right for me.... great for driving though. I did use them last week after driving with them for 4 hours.

Chris Stearn

ttf_Graham Martin · Post by **ttf_Graham Martin** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:11 pm

Quote from: ctivey on Nov 13, 2017, 12:33PMDick Nash (age 89) took a few solos at the ITF this summer and sounded great. Bill Watrous (age 78) was there too, swinging hard. Both had amazing high ranges.

snip

This topic is great! Nice to see others' perspectives on a topic I've considered a good bit.

Chris
Yes I agree!

There have been quite a few mentions of Bill Watrous in this topic and I must say that I very much admire his ballad playing. I guess I also relate a bit to him because he is about the same age as myself - a year younger actually. Because of this I have read a lot about him, and the point they always make about Bill is his insistence on a good mike and amplification, so that he can play very quietly. I have often wondered if this playing quietly is to stay off potential lip problems associated with age?

Oh, and like Bill, I also do a bit of jogging on my twice-a-day long walks. I must admit the number of paces has declined a little in recent times, because Maggie is now 15 and she is slowing down a lot due to a cruciate ligament operation and arthritis. Aren't we all? I also have cervical spondylosis, which is one other factor influencing my playing decline.

Anyway, on the recommendation of my regular doctor, I am seeing a Physician today to try and find out if the many medical complaints affecting my playing, have a common cause.

On the plus side, I think I have found a swing club where I can get a bit of a blow each week with some similarly aged and experienced musicians. It is difficult to keep up the practice at home if you do not have a playing outlet where you can express yourself jazzwise, and there is an audience to impress.