Non-Doodle Fast Jazz Articulations

[ttf_aarronyis]

Hi y'all
Very curious to hear what are your approaches to fast articulation in a jazz setting?
I have been looking for a means of approaching faster playing/articulation in general that isn't as much smooth doodle tonguing and more of a 'defined' (lack of a better word) attack at speed ala Elliot Mason etc
Keen to hear your different approaches!   

[ttf_Arrowhead99]

The phrase "non-doodle fast jazz articulations" is something of a misnomer, being that doodle tonguing is the system for articulating fast (and defined). Doodle tonguing can be customized to your own tastes. you can add "ta" articulations to the technique (or whatever) for a more percussive effect.
I have no idea what articulations Elliot Mason uses, but it sounds like something similiar to that of what Rosolino used- a fast single tongue with perhaps an older style doodle tongue; also, some across the grain stuff.
I know some other folks use a very soft double tongue -> "du-ga-lu-ga" (or whatever), but that kind of articulation has a unique set of restrictions.

Can you expand on what kind of effect you are going for?

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

Doodle is only the system for those who can do it well.  Lots of players can't or don't doodle but manage to play fast and smooth with other articulations.

Some doodlers can get a very defined articulation with it; others can't.

I use a very legato double and triple tongue, and sometimes a forward and backward brush of the tip across the bump on the roof of my mouth, which creates a doodle-like effect but without much definition.

[ttf_Pre59]

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 06, 2017, 10:43PM
Doodle is only the system for those who can do it well.  Lots of players can't or don't doodle but manage to play fast and smooth with other articulations.


Yes.
Playing "across the grain", also called "fretting" can sometimes have an advantage over doodle tonguing because it's not so volume dependant, i.e. it works at louder playing volumes. To make it really work though, it's necessary to become familiar with the upper harmonics in the lower slide positions.
With both of these techniques, having a super clean production without having to use any tongue is a major asset.

[ttf_TromboneMonkey]

I single tongue everything with a hybrid "Ta Da" with across the grain playing.  It ends up being "ta dee ah dah" or something similar depending on the line.  I get around pretty well.

[ttf_Arrowhead99]

While I can't say for sure, legendary Jazz/Ska trombonist Don Drummond seemed to have used a soft double tongue for his double time passages.
 

[ttf_aarronyis]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone it's interesting to see your different ways of doing it! I suppose in terms of effect i'm going for is a less sort of 'smooth' sound that i've heard most 'doodler's' use and a more aggressive approach- I have a sound conception in my head from other instruments wherein the players (ie saxophone- coltrane, sonny rollins trumpet- scott tinkler) have a stronger attack to each note even at speed, the challenge of course being how to relate that to the physicality of the trombone (and why the question ) But thanks so much for your thoughts again

[ttf_Pre59]

Quote from: aarronyis on Nov 08, 2017, 02:18AMThanks for your thoughts everyone it's interesting to see your different ways of doing it! I suppose in terms of effect i'm going for is a less sort of 'smooth' sound that i've heard most 'doodler's' use and a more aggressive approach- I have a sound conception in my head from other instruments wherein the players (ie saxophone- coltrane, sonny rollins trumpet- scott tinkler) have a stronger attack to each note even at speed, the challenge of course being how to relate that to the physicality of the trombone (and why the question ) But thanks so much for your thoughts again

Many improvisers play to their strongest technique, which could be speed, range, playing outside etc. I don't think that this leads to the most interesting trombone solos, especially the ones which are almost entirely doodle lead.
Two thoughts that often come to my mind are; is this the best use of a trombone? And, apart from the obvious respect for the technical ability, can I take anything away from it that has moved me?

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quote from: Pre59 on Nov 08, 2017, 04:21AMMany improvisers play to their strongest technique, which could be speed, range, playing outside etc. I don't think that this leads to the most interesting trombone solos, especially the ones which are almost entirely doodle lead.


I don't know how universally true that is.  I suspect some trombonists improvise on their strength, but others develop their strength so they can improvise on what their passion leads to.

[ttf_Pre59]

Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 08, 2017, 05:04AMI don't know how universally true that is.  I suspect some trombonists improvise on their strength, but others develop their strength so they can improvise on what their passion leads to.

I did say many, not all..

[ttf_kwbryson]

Quote from: Pre59 on Nov 08, 2017, 04:21AMMany improvisers play to their strongest technique, which could be speed, range, playing outside etc. I don't think that this leads to the most interesting trombone solos, especially the ones which are almost entirely doodle lead.
Two thoughts that often come to my mind are; is this the best use of a trombone? And, apart from the obvious respect for the technical ability, can I take anything away from it that has moved me?

I took one of Hal Crook's improv classes when I was in school.  He often mentioned that the aim should be for all of the above.  Play technical when called for, and kill it, but also move people emotionally (easy for a player like him to say!).  The way I see it as a working professional, playing jazz into today's world calls for me to be capable at fast playing.  If I want to be marketable for gigs (other than big band or section work) I need to have at least some chops to keep up on a songs called at a fast tempo, or to speak the language along side trumpet or sax players.

Since the age of 15 I have been very moved by John Coltrane's playing; fast or otherwise!

[ttf_kwbryson]

Quote from: Pre59 on Nov 08, 2017, 04:21AMMany improvisers play to their strongest technique, which could be speed, range, playing outside etc. I don't think that this leads to the most interesting trombone solos, especially the ones which are almost entirely doodle lead.
Two thoughts that often come to my mind are; is this the best use of a trombone? And, apart from the obvious respect for the technical ability, can I take anything away from it that has moved me?

I took one of Hal Crook's improv classes when I was in school.  He often mentioned that the aim should be for all of the above.  Play technical when called for, and kill it, but also move people emotionally (easy for a player like him to say!).  The way I see it as a working professional, playing jazz into today's world calls for me to be capable at fast playing.  If I want to be marketable for gigs (other than big band or section work) I need to have at least some chops to keep up on a songs called at a fast tempo, or to speak the language along side trumpet or sax players.

Since the age of 15 I have been very moved by John Coltrane's playing; fast or otherwise!