I don't have a lot of experience playing lead trombone, but am finding myself more and more being put in that position in one of my bands because of our inability to find a lead player who is reliable, or isn't already committed to too many other groups. Being Tuba and Euphonium are my primary instruments bass trombone is actually my preferential part to play on trombone. I seem to have no problem with chops and I can get up into the higher register of the horn, but I am having a problem with picking out the correct partial in the upper register (A above the bass clef staff, or the A in the middle of the Treble/G clef staff and higher), especially when coming in cold after not playing for multiple bars. I often play the notes in a higher partial than they should be in. If I've been playing a note previously I can hit the note by thinking the interval from the previous note. Are there any exercises, or ways to get better at hitting these upper register notes cold reliably other than just doing it a lot? I've taken to using a clip on tuner not for intonation (which I know needs to be adjusted for by ear) but to verify that I've hit the correct partial during rehearsals. Is this something there are specific exercises for, or is it just a matter of doing it repeatedly until you get the feel for where the notes lie up there?
Picking out high notes out of thin air.
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ttf_Radar
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ttf_robcat2075
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
There's quite a bit of discussion of the problem among horn players, for whom it's almost all "high" notes.
One of many...
Hornmasters on Accuracy, an Introduction and Part I
QuoteFarkas presents a classic exercise of fairly random pitches to work on first note accuracy. One goal he states is to attempt to hear the notes and intervals before each attack. This is a major key to accuracy, to which Farkas adds
Quote but particularly for the purpose of this exercise, try to taste each note. Every note has a distinct muscular setting, almost a flavor of its own. It is this distinction in taste and feel, almost instinctive, that we wish to develop for each note on the horn.
That's a level of control and skill most of us will not have but what other way is there to get that first note out correctly?
One of many...
Hornmasters on Accuracy, an Introduction and Part I
QuoteFarkas presents a classic exercise of fairly random pitches to work on first note accuracy. One goal he states is to attempt to hear the notes and intervals before each attack. This is a major key to accuracy, to which Farkas adds
Quote but particularly for the purpose of this exercise, try to taste each note. Every note has a distinct muscular setting, almost a flavor of its own. It is this distinction in taste and feel, almost instinctive, that we wish to develop for each note on the horn.
That's a level of control and skill most of us will not have but what other way is there to get that first note out correctly?
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ttf_Doug Elliott
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
If you don't hear it first you have virtually no chance. That's a necessary first step.
If you're a doubler playing on a less-than-familiar mouthpiece that's probably too small, that's one reason for overshooting.
If you're a doubler playing on a less-than-familiar mouthpiece that's probably too small, that's one reason for overshooting.
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ttf_bonenick
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
I was just about to write that this skill is about a combination between muscle money/ aperture control and hearing actually the note before playing it.
As a freshman doubler on the other end (tenor Trombone/Trumpet) I found that refusing to play/practice the other instrument before a challenging part to play on the same day makes me more reliable.
As a freshman doubler on the other end (tenor Trombone/Trumpet) I found that refusing to play/practice the other instrument before a challenging part to play on the same day makes me more reliable.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
A few years ago I heard the Britten "Serenade for tenor, horn and strings" where the horn solo has quite a few high notes to pick out of thin air.
The strain or pressure or whatever was so great he was turning purple. It was scary to watch but he did nail the notes.
The strain or pressure or whatever was so great he was turning purple. It was scary to watch but he did nail the notes.
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ttf_BGuttman
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Carrying your lip slurs high enough will help find partials.
I also do some octaves into the trouble range (from an octave below).
And I'll third (fourth?) that you MUST be able to hear the note before you play it.
I also do some octaves into the trouble range (from an octave below).
And I'll third (fourth?) that you MUST be able to hear the note before you play it.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
That's one of my big problems. I can play lots higher than I can hear!
I'm trying to learn to hear notes in that range, and I think a lot of it is just the small number of hours I've spent up there compared to the amount of time hammering away at notes in the staff.
Doug suggested to me that the Maxted exercises were helpful for this, because they are such logical sequences. That helps connect the note to the sound.
I had another idea just today but it's on the goofy side even for me, so I won't reveal it until I test it. Don't tell Geezer there might be another video coming.
It's worse on an unfamiliar horn. I think the entire constellation of physical sensations connects somehow to the sound and pitch. I played last night's rehearsal on alto because my left wrist was aching and I wanted to rest it. It was a bit hard to hear even midrange pitches and high notes were a problem to hear, though not to hit.
I'm trying to learn to hear notes in that range, and I think a lot of it is just the small number of hours I've spent up there compared to the amount of time hammering away at notes in the staff.
Doug suggested to me that the Maxted exercises were helpful for this, because they are such logical sequences. That helps connect the note to the sound.
I had another idea just today but it's on the goofy side even for me, so I won't reveal it until I test it. Don't tell Geezer there might be another video coming.
It's worse on an unfamiliar horn. I think the entire constellation of physical sensations connects somehow to the sound and pitch. I played last night's rehearsal on alto because my left wrist was aching and I wanted to rest it. It was a bit hard to hear even midrange pitches and high notes were a problem to hear, though not to hit.
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ttf_11914227
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
I read a tip a while ago either on this forum or another, I apologize I really do not remember where, if given the chance, play the note down an octave very very quietly and then come in on the high one, giving you a chance to hear the note before playing it.
I've done it a few times when I'm not quite comfortable on the note I'm playing and it works out well. Although, I've also only really done it in marching band where everything is loud enough to mask me unless I try to be heard.
I've done it a few times when I'm not quite comfortable on the note I'm playing and it works out well. Although, I've also only really done it in marching band where everything is loud enough to mask me unless I try to be heard.
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ttf_bigbassbone1
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Oct 31, 2017, 10:27AMIf you don't hear it first you have virtually no chance. That's a necessary first step.
If you're a doubler playing on a less-than-familiar mouthpiece that's probably too small, that's one reason for overshooting.
I spend a lot of my practice focused on this skill. It's not just high register, I find that producing clear and consistent sounds reliably in any register is one of the hardest things about brass playing.
Whilst I completely agree that hearing the note first seems to be the most effective way of achieving this, (almost every teacher I have had at various points mentioned this) it's not a skill I feel like I totally understand. I don't have perfect pitch, and whilst my relative pitch is ok, it's slow and I am not as good as most at it.
The way I go about ensuring consistency in all registers, is that I do a lot of focused practice of varied articulations on notes long and short across the entire register. While I am doing this, I pay very close attention to what my body is doing when I achieve a good sounding note with immediate and good attack, so that I can effectively repeat the process to play the note in the same way again.
I find that by focusing on a reliable physical process that I know confidently produces a quality result, I have good success in consistently hitting quality sounding notes in any register. It is not totally black and white, by that I mean that of course some element of my inner ear comes into play to help, and of course when I play with other people I am very active in listening and adjusting. All i am saying is that I find it more helpful to bring the focus forward to simple repeatable and reliable physical motions that help me make sound.
Whilst I am not %100 sure of this, I think that if I suddenly lost my hearing, I would still be able to Buzz correct pitches on the mouthpiece because I am very aware of how specific pitches feel.
To The OP, I'm not sure if that is helpful, but maybe next time you are in the practice room pay attention to what your body does when you successfully do what you are asking. Analyse and attempt to repeat that. I think your ear will happen almost automatically after a while. I find doing it this way also gives you a VERY clear picture of how to fix something if it goes wrong, just because you are very aware of what you are doing or attempting to do!
If you're a doubler playing on a less-than-familiar mouthpiece that's probably too small, that's one reason for overshooting.
I spend a lot of my practice focused on this skill. It's not just high register, I find that producing clear and consistent sounds reliably in any register is one of the hardest things about brass playing.
Whilst I completely agree that hearing the note first seems to be the most effective way of achieving this, (almost every teacher I have had at various points mentioned this) it's not a skill I feel like I totally understand. I don't have perfect pitch, and whilst my relative pitch is ok, it's slow and I am not as good as most at it.
The way I go about ensuring consistency in all registers, is that I do a lot of focused practice of varied articulations on notes long and short across the entire register. While I am doing this, I pay very close attention to what my body is doing when I achieve a good sounding note with immediate and good attack, so that I can effectively repeat the process to play the note in the same way again.
I find that by focusing on a reliable physical process that I know confidently produces a quality result, I have good success in consistently hitting quality sounding notes in any register. It is not totally black and white, by that I mean that of course some element of my inner ear comes into play to help, and of course when I play with other people I am very active in listening and adjusting. All i am saying is that I find it more helpful to bring the focus forward to simple repeatable and reliable physical motions that help me make sound.
Whilst I am not %100 sure of this, I think that if I suddenly lost my hearing, I would still be able to Buzz correct pitches on the mouthpiece because I am very aware of how specific pitches feel.
To The OP, I'm not sure if that is helpful, but maybe next time you are in the practice room pay attention to what your body does when you successfully do what you are asking. Analyse and attempt to repeat that. I think your ear will happen almost automatically after a while. I find doing it this way also gives you a VERY clear picture of how to fix something if it goes wrong, just because you are very aware of what you are doing or attempting to do!
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ttf_davdud101
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Oct 31, 2017, 10:27AMIf you don't hear it first you have virtually no chance. That's a necessary first step.
If you're a doubler playing on a less-than-familiar mouthpiece that's probably too small, that's one reason for overshooting.
Doug puts it best (at least for what my experience has been). By hearing exactly where the note is - this might require getting extremely comfortable with your music and horn, and later on it gets in your "inner ear" - your chops and air can be taught to automatically set up to hit that note on that partial.
The most awkward is setting up for the right note/partial but wrong position...
If you're a doubler playing on a less-than-familiar mouthpiece that's probably too small, that's one reason for overshooting.
Doug puts it best (at least for what my experience has been). By hearing exactly where the note is - this might require getting extremely comfortable with your music and horn, and later on it gets in your "inner ear" - your chops and air can be taught to automatically set up to hit that note on that partial.
The most awkward is setting up for the right note/partial but wrong position...
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ttf_watermailonman
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Oct 31, 2017, 10:27AMIf you don't hear it first you have virtually no chance. That's a necessary first step.
If you're a doubler playing on a less-than-familiar mouthpiece that's probably too small, that's one reason for overshooting.
I have three suggestions:
1. Sing in a choire. It helps to be able to hear in advance what the part will sound like. Can you sing the part you are going to play? I mean practice to sing an unknown part and check how you are doing. It helps to know how to play the piano.
2. Play in a symphony orchestra. Lots of rests and awkward chords, until you get used to the music. I have just become a member of an amateur symphony orchestra, at a fairly high amateure level. We are now playing the second symphony of Felix Mendelsohn. Lots of high notes. No clue first time what role your part is if you haven't heard the piece before. If you are unprepared then you do not know what chord note you are assigned until you have played the part with the section. You do not know if the conductor will give you a sign when to play either. Lots of things to do better. If I had to work in a symphony orchestra for profession then I would have to prepare for each work not to make a fool of myself, but in this orchestra I don't have to do this.
3. Something about technique to start cold. Don't start notes with your lips together. It is much easier to nail notes if you are a little loose/open in the centre of your lips. A symphony orchestra is a good place to practice that skill. Count 56 bars and nail a loud high chord note with sforzando, full sound or begin in pianissimo on a
# 
in a a-major chord after a fermata when the conductor moves his baton in a small sweeping gesture. It takes some skills to do that together as a section. Not at all like playing in a big band.
/Tom
If you're a doubler playing on a less-than-familiar mouthpiece that's probably too small, that's one reason for overshooting.
I have three suggestions:
1. Sing in a choire. It helps to be able to hear in advance what the part will sound like. Can you sing the part you are going to play? I mean practice to sing an unknown part and check how you are doing. It helps to know how to play the piano.
2. Play in a symphony orchestra. Lots of rests and awkward chords, until you get used to the music. I have just become a member of an amateur symphony orchestra, at a fairly high amateure level. We are now playing the second symphony of Felix Mendelsohn. Lots of high notes. No clue first time what role your part is if you haven't heard the piece before. If you are unprepared then you do not know what chord note you are assigned until you have played the part with the section. You do not know if the conductor will give you a sign when to play either. Lots of things to do better. If I had to work in a symphony orchestra for profession then I would have to prepare for each work not to make a fool of myself, but in this orchestra I don't have to do this.
3. Something about technique to start cold. Don't start notes with your lips together. It is much easier to nail notes if you are a little loose/open in the centre of your lips. A symphony orchestra is a good place to practice that skill. Count 56 bars and nail a loud high chord note with sforzando, full sound or begin in pianissimo on a
# in a a-major chord after a fermata when the conductor moves his baton in a small sweeping gesture. It takes some skills to do that together as a section. Not at all like playing in a big band./Tom
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ttf_Doug Elliott
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: watermailonman on Oct 31, 2017, 02:23PM
3. Don't start the notes with your lips together. It is much easier to nail the notes between entrences if you are a little loose/open in the centre of your lips.
/Tom
I suppose it's easier to nail notes using whatever technique you are accustomed to... of course.
But my opinion is that starting with lips apart is one of the exact reasons people have trouble with this and other things.
3. Don't start the notes with your lips together. It is much easier to nail the notes between entrences if you are a little loose/open in the centre of your lips.
/Tom
I suppose it's easier to nail notes using whatever technique you are accustomed to... of course.
But my opinion is that starting with lips apart is one of the exact reasons people have trouble with this and other things.
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ttf_watermailonman
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Oct 31, 2017, 02:34PMI suppose it's easier to nail notes using whatever technique you are accustomed to... of course.
But my opinion is that starting with lips apart is one of the exact reasons people have trouble with this and other things.
I suppose it is up to the individual player, but my attacks gets better/more secure if I have a slight open aparture and not completely closed. It is not an embouchure with loose mouth corners or loose lips. It is just the centre I try to keep loose. The sound starts immediately and I avoid the risk of getting a "prr-start" in the attack. I guess it is different with different techniques. To me it is easier to start clean this way, especially when cold/after a long rest.
/Tom
But my opinion is that starting with lips apart is one of the exact reasons people have trouble with this and other things.
I suppose it is up to the individual player, but my attacks gets better/more secure if I have a slight open aparture and not completely closed. It is not an embouchure with loose mouth corners or loose lips. It is just the centre I try to keep loose. The sound starts immediately and I avoid the risk of getting a "prr-start" in the attack. I guess it is different with different techniques. To me it is easier to start clean this way, especially when cold/after a long rest.
/Tom
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ttf_Radar
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Thanks for the input so far, I do think my ability to hear those pitches in my head is probably the biggest part of my problem. Since they are above my singing range (and I do sing regularly in a choir) it's harder for me to pitch the higher notes correctly in my head without another note to go from. That does give me something to work on.
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ttf_bonenick
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
If you cannot sing them whistle...or buzz it. Both are a good practice.
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ttf_afugate
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: Radar on Oct 31, 2017, 04:16PMThanks for the input so far, I do think my ability to hear those pitches in my head is probably the biggest part of my problem. Since they are above my singing range (and I do sing regularly in a choir) it's harder for me to pitch the higher notes correctly in my head without another note to go from. That does give me something to work on.
Very often, the note you need to play has been played recently by another instrument in the ensemble. Listen for that to get the pitch in your head.
--Andy in OKC
Very often, the note you need to play has been played recently by another instrument in the ensemble. Listen for that to get the pitch in your head.
--Andy in OKC
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ttf_baileyman
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Often lead trombone is doubling lead trumpet. There is something about listening to lead trumpet that seems to make it much easier to hit the right notes. In a Thad Jones chart, though, this goes out the window.
Small patterns seem to help security up there, but only if the notes aren't a struggle. Something like this in scalar intervals where 1 is the start note:
1 2 1 3 1 4 1 3 1 2 1
and move it around to different start notes, turn it upside down, try a different pattern, etc.
As for hearing the note, this seems to improve the more often I play the note, as the brain seems to then be able to imagine it better and relate that imagination to the feel that makes it happen.
Small patterns seem to help security up there, but only if the notes aren't a struggle. Something like this in scalar intervals where 1 is the start note:
1 2 1 3 1 4 1 3 1 2 1
and move it around to different start notes, turn it upside down, try a different pattern, etc.
As for hearing the note, this seems to improve the more often I play the note, as the brain seems to then be able to imagine it better and relate that imagination to the feel that makes it happen.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: Radar on Oct 31, 2017, 04:16PMThanks for the input so far, I do think my ability to hear those pitches in my head is probably the biggest part of my problem. Since they are above my singing range (and I do sing regularly in a choir) it's harder for me to pitch the higher notes correctly in my head without another note to go from.
I sing in a choir, but my voice tops out between D and F above the staff depending on the time of day, so it isn't much help. I'm pretty solid on pitch below that though, voice or instrument. That's been my theory, that I have problems above where I can sing, and it may have to do with being unable to relate to the physical sensations accompanying voice production.
I sing in a choir, but my voice tops out between D and F above the staff depending on the time of day, so it isn't much help. I'm pretty solid on pitch below that though, voice or instrument. That's been my theory, that I have problems above where I can sing, and it may have to do with being unable to relate to the physical sensations accompanying voice production.
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ttf_hyperbolica
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: baileyman on Nov 01, 2017, 04:42AMOften lead trombone is doubling lead trumpet. There is something about listening to lead trumpet that seems to make it much easier to hit the right notes. In a Thad Jones chart, though, this goes out the window.
Small patterns seem to help security up there, but only if the notes aren't a struggle. Something like this in scalar intervals where 1 is the start note:
1 2 1 3 1 4 1 3 1 2 1
and move it around to different start notes, turn it upside down, try a different pattern, etc.
As for hearing the note, this seems to improve the more often I play the note, as the brain seems to then be able to imagine it better and relate that imagination to the feel that makes it happen.
Yes. Intervals cure a number of things. If you need to see them in print, Arbans has good ones, but you can make your own as baileyman suggests. The ability to hear the note or the interval to the note is key. And there's no substitute for just doing it a lot of times (practice). You don't need perfect pitch, just good relative pitch, which can easily be developed. Luckily, you're probably never asked to wake up in the morning and pump out a high C# without reference. You almost always have a reference.
The big example of this is the high F as the first note in the Beethoven 5 alto trombone part. You sit out for several movements, and your first note in the piece is that high F. Luckily, there's a lot of sound around you so you can hear the pitch before you play it. The rest is muscle memory, as others have suggested. And muscle memory only comes from... practice.
Maybe take a day where you stop your practice at random times and pick off a G, or a B natural or a Db. The next day move to a different note.
Small patterns seem to help security up there, but only if the notes aren't a struggle. Something like this in scalar intervals where 1 is the start note:
1 2 1 3 1 4 1 3 1 2 1
and move it around to different start notes, turn it upside down, try a different pattern, etc.
As for hearing the note, this seems to improve the more often I play the note, as the brain seems to then be able to imagine it better and relate that imagination to the feel that makes it happen.
Yes. Intervals cure a number of things. If you need to see them in print, Arbans has good ones, but you can make your own as baileyman suggests. The ability to hear the note or the interval to the note is key. And there's no substitute for just doing it a lot of times (practice). You don't need perfect pitch, just good relative pitch, which can easily be developed. Luckily, you're probably never asked to wake up in the morning and pump out a high C# without reference. You almost always have a reference.
The big example of this is the high F as the first note in the Beethoven 5 alto trombone part. You sit out for several movements, and your first note in the piece is that high F. Luckily, there's a lot of sound around you so you can hear the pitch before you play it. The rest is muscle memory, as others have suggested. And muscle memory only comes from... practice.
Maybe take a day where you stop your practice at random times and pick off a G, or a B natural or a Db. The next day move to a different note.
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ttf_Jerry
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
I have had great success with Michael Davis' "Total Trombone" and "Bone Kill" etudes books. The "Total Trombone" etudes include an alternating triads and 4ths and 5ths etudes which have helped my ear immensely. The "Bone Kill" book contains five suites of three etudes each. They encompass the full range of the instrument using all kinds of jumps and intervals. Depending upon the style and speed one chooses to play, reinforces the type of attacks and entrances related to playing lead in a big band. Also, having found the correct mouthpiece makes it all work as my chops function correctly and have become stronger.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Some great posts here! I like to agree with bigbassbone1, Timothy and hyperbolica, especially.
Being able to not only hear, but to lyrically sing the pitches in my head is a fantastic way to play and I stated so months ago on another thread. Glad to see it gain traction! And yet as others have stated, I can not as yet hear some pitches in my head above those I which can not sing. So there are other tools to use; technique, muscle-memory, tissue-memory and good old-fashioned high-school horn-slotting. I have chosen a horn I like above all my others b/c it has the most wide-open slots all up and down. I find it easier to hit certain pitches whose horn slots are more open than they are on my other horns. As I advance, that may change! Not too hard to imagine a seasoned top-tiered pro liking a horn with narrow slots.
I also think a great way to learn to hit notes dead-on is to "ping" them. Horn up, breath in, press, blow. Horn down and rest for a four-count. Rinse and repeat all up and down the horn; kinda spidery-like as in some long-tones patterns but short notes instead of long ones and with removing the horn from the chops being critical in this particular exercise. This isn't an endurance exercise, it's a precision one. Big dif!
Someone else posted while I was typing. Good to see excitement over a topic that isn't silly.
...Geezer
Being able to not only hear, but to lyrically sing the pitches in my head is a fantastic way to play and I stated so months ago on another thread. Glad to see it gain traction! And yet as others have stated, I can not as yet hear some pitches in my head above those I which can not sing. So there are other tools to use; technique, muscle-memory, tissue-memory and good old-fashioned high-school horn-slotting. I have chosen a horn I like above all my others b/c it has the most wide-open slots all up and down. I find it easier to hit certain pitches whose horn slots are more open than they are on my other horns. As I advance, that may change! Not too hard to imagine a seasoned top-tiered pro liking a horn with narrow slots.
I also think a great way to learn to hit notes dead-on is to "ping" them. Horn up, breath in, press, blow. Horn down and rest for a four-count. Rinse and repeat all up and down the horn; kinda spidery-like as in some long-tones patterns but short notes instead of long ones and with removing the horn from the chops being critical in this particular exercise. This isn't an endurance exercise, it's a precision one. Big dif!
Someone else posted while I was typing. Good to see excitement over a topic that isn't silly.
...Geezer
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ttf_robcat2075
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: 11914227 on Oct 31, 2017, 11:44AMI read a tip a while ago either on this forum or another, I apologize I really do not remember where, if given the chance, play the note down an octave very very quietly and then come in on the high one, giving you a chance to hear the note before playing it.
I dimly recall a passage in Philip Farkas' "The Art of French Horn Playing" where he mentions this as a possible strategy, without admitting he ever did it himself.
I dimly recall a passage in Philip Farkas' "The Art of French Horn Playing" where he mentions this as a possible strategy, without admitting he ever did it himself.
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ttf_Quiros
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
The challenge exists in the opposite end of the register as well, especially for me.
To add to the discussion of note tasting/muscle memory, Julie Landsman has a video in her Caruso method series regarding the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ySWKxz-Udc
What that stands out to me is that on top of being able to hear the note and feel the note on your lips, the "taste" also includes proper timing and subdivision.
To add to the discussion of note tasting/muscle memory, Julie Landsman has a video in her Caruso method series regarding the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ySWKxz-Udc
What that stands out to me is that on top of being able to hear the note and feel the note on your lips, the "taste" also includes proper timing and subdivision.
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ttf_baileyman
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
"Taste" is a word I use for the whole constellation of stuff arranged to make the note happen. tongue position especially seems like "taste". Through regular repetition I hope for these tastes to become worn like grooves into my brain and become automatic.
This afternoon's gig underlines however, how easy it is outside of the practice room to keep doing the previous thing, the thing that may have worn a deeper groove on the brain than the new thing.
This afternoon's gig underlines however, how easy it is outside of the practice room to keep doing the previous thing, the thing that may have worn a deeper groove on the brain than the new thing.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: robcat2075 on Nov 01, 2017, 07:40AMI dimly recall a passage in Philip Farkas' "The Art of French Horn Playing" where he mentions this as a possible strategy, without admitting he ever did it himself.
Several people have mentioned this strategy (playing the note quietly an octave lower.)
But wait. To do that accurately, you're going to have to think that note clearly in the lower octave. So you've already picked the note out of the air, only you've done it in familiar territory.
It follows perhaps that it was the thinking the note that made the strategy work, and we could use this without actually playing the lower note.
Several people have mentioned this strategy (playing the note quietly an octave lower.)
But wait. To do that accurately, you're going to have to think that note clearly in the lower octave. So you've already picked the note out of the air, only you've done it in familiar territory.
It follows perhaps that it was the thinking the note that made the strategy work, and we could use this without actually playing the lower note.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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ttf_LowrBrass
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 03, 2017, 04:59AMSeveral people have mentioned this strategy (playing the note quietly an octave lower.)
But wait. To do that accurately, you're going to have to think that note clearly in the lower octave. So you've already picked the note out of the air, only you've done it in familiar territory.
It follows perhaps that it was the thinking the note that made the strategy work, and we could use this without actually playing the lower note.
Joke...? Sometimes I can't tell.
Lower partials are bigger targets that require less precision and have more room for small inaccuracies. We're all in agreement about this, yeah?
But wait. To do that accurately, you're going to have to think that note clearly in the lower octave. So you've already picked the note out of the air, only you've done it in familiar territory.
It follows perhaps that it was the thinking the note that made the strategy work, and we could use this without actually playing the lower note.
Joke...? Sometimes I can't tell.
Lower partials are bigger targets that require less precision and have more room for small inaccuracies. We're all in agreement about this, yeah?
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ttf_timothy42b
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: LowrBrass on Nov 03, 2017, 05:43AMJoke...? Sometimes I can't tell.
Lower partials are bigger targets that require less precision and have more room for small inaccuracies. We're all in agreement about this, yeah?
I don't think that follows. You still need to think it to hit it clean. And if you were able to play the lower octave with less precision, would that help you hit the higher one?
Not a joke. I am seriously proposing that it is the mental image of the low octave that helps you hit the high one, not the playing of the low one. This should be testable.
Lower partials are bigger targets that require less precision and have more room for small inaccuracies. We're all in agreement about this, yeah?
I don't think that follows. You still need to think it to hit it clean. And if you were able to play the lower octave with less precision, would that help you hit the higher one?
Not a joke. I am seriously proposing that it is the mental image of the low octave that helps you hit the high one, not the playing of the low one. This should be testable.
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ttf_bonenick
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Small target...I was hesitating to post this as I am rather a beginner on the trombone but here it is...
There is a trumpet book written by Claude Rippas, called warm ups from the middle. To me, they aren't warm ups, more like flexibility drills.
My favourite drill was:
G4-C5-C4-C5/-G4-C4-C5-G4 2x in sixteen notes slured.
I basically take any 3 neigbouring parrtials and do the same. The closest the partials the more difficult it is. If you add tonguing it gets even harder.
There is a trumpet book written by Claude Rippas, called warm ups from the middle. To me, they aren't warm ups, more like flexibility drills.
My favourite drill was:
G4-C5-C4-C5/-G4-C4-C5-G4 2x in sixteen notes slured.
I basically take any 3 neigbouring parrtials and do the same. The closest the partials the more difficult it is. If you add tonguing it gets even harder.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 03, 2017, 06:04AMI don't think that follows. You still need to think it to hit it clean. And if you were able to play the lower octave with less precision, would that help you hit the higher one?
Not a joke. I am seriously proposing that it is the mental image of the low octave that helps you hit the high one, not the playing of the low one. This should be testable.
If that is truly helpful to you, alrighty then.
If you can not mentally sing a high pitch, perhaps mentally sing a pitch in a chord? So perhaps think-sing the 3rd or 5th below the high target note? I
...Geezer
Not a joke. I am seriously proposing that it is the mental image of the low octave that helps you hit the high one, not the playing of the low one. This should be testable.
If that is truly helpful to you, alrighty then.
If you can not mentally sing a high pitch, perhaps mentally sing a pitch in a chord? So perhaps think-sing the 3rd or 5th below the high target note? I
...Geezer
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ttf_timothy42b
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Nov 03, 2017, 06:35AMIf that is truly helpful to you, alrighty then.
If you can not mentally sing a high pitch, perhaps mentally sing a pitch in a chord? So perhaps think-sing the 3rd or 5th below the high target note? I
...Geezer
Well, let's back up.
We agree that thinking the note first is important to hitting it.
Several of us (including me) say we have much more trouble doing that in the upper range than in the middle.
Some people observe that playing the note an octave below assists in nailing a high entry.
We know it's easier to hit that low note - otherwise we wouldn't bother, we'd just play the high note.
Why is it easier, and why does it work? I think it's easier because those notes are familiar ones that I've played many times and can sing, so they're easier to think the pitch. The counter idea is that the partials are farther apart and less precision is required.
If I'm right, then it is the thinking of the low pitch that helps, not the playing. So we can use that approach instead, and not get caught playing it.
If you can not mentally sing a high pitch, perhaps mentally sing a pitch in a chord? So perhaps think-sing the 3rd or 5th below the high target note? I
...Geezer
Well, let's back up.
We agree that thinking the note first is important to hitting it.
Several of us (including me) say we have much more trouble doing that in the upper range than in the middle.
Some people observe that playing the note an octave below assists in nailing a high entry.
We know it's easier to hit that low note - otherwise we wouldn't bother, we'd just play the high note.
Why is it easier, and why does it work? I think it's easier because those notes are familiar ones that I've played many times and can sing, so they're easier to think the pitch. The counter idea is that the partials are farther apart and less precision is required.
If I'm right, then it is the thinking of the low pitch that helps, not the playing. So we can use that approach instead, and not get caught playing it.
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ttf_Steven
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 01, 2017, 05:53AMI sing in a choir, but my voice tops out between D and F above the staff depending on the time of day, so it isn't much help. I'm pretty solid on pitch below that though, voice or instrument. That's been my theory, that I have problems above where I can sing, and it may have to do with being unable to relate to the physical sensations accompanying voice production.
This makes perfect sense to me, but I know plenty of soprano singers whose trombone range gets iffy about the same place mine does. Surely they can sing those notes. On the other hand, they can't sing the notes that on trombone they can wake from a deep sleep and play.
This makes perfect sense to me, but I know plenty of soprano singers whose trombone range gets iffy about the same place mine does. Surely they can sing those notes. On the other hand, they can't sing the notes that on trombone they can wake from a deep sleep and play.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 03, 2017, 07:36AMWell, let's back up.
We agree that thinking the note first is important to hitting it.
Several of us (including me) say we have much more trouble doing that in the upper range than in the middle.
Some people observe that playing the note an octave below assists in nailing a high entry.
We know it's easier to hit that low note - otherwise we wouldn't bother, we'd just play the high note.
Why is it easier, and why does it work? I think it's easier because those notes are familiar ones that I've played many times and can sing, so they're easier to think the pitch. The counter idea is that the partials are farther apart and less precision is required.
If I'm right, then it is the thinking of the low pitch that helps, not the playing. So we can use that approach instead, and not get caught playing it.
Playing - correct playing - always helps. If it doesn't help then it isn't correct. And to my understanding, there are two approaches to that - if I have it right in it's most simplistic terms:
1) Reinhardt - the correct embouchure creates the sound
2) Burtis - the correct sound (via Caruso) creates the embouchure.
My theory is that if both are done properly, both should produce the same result.
...Geezer
We agree that thinking the note first is important to hitting it.
Several of us (including me) say we have much more trouble doing that in the upper range than in the middle.
Some people observe that playing the note an octave below assists in nailing a high entry.
We know it's easier to hit that low note - otherwise we wouldn't bother, we'd just play the high note.
Why is it easier, and why does it work? I think it's easier because those notes are familiar ones that I've played many times and can sing, so they're easier to think the pitch. The counter idea is that the partials are farther apart and less precision is required.
If I'm right, then it is the thinking of the low pitch that helps, not the playing. So we can use that approach instead, and not get caught playing it.
Playing - correct playing - always helps. If it doesn't help then it isn't correct. And to my understanding, there are two approaches to that - if I have it right in it's most simplistic terms:
1) Reinhardt - the correct embouchure creates the sound
2) Burtis - the correct sound (via Caruso) creates the embouchure.
My theory is that if both are done properly, both should produce the same result.
...Geezer
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ttf_Doug Elliott
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
I have perfect pitch so I don't have a problem hearing a note before I play it. That has been a tremendous advantage for me from the time I started playing.
I still miss high notes sometimes. One thing that almost guarantees accuracy is to barely touch a freebuzz on the note I'm going to play, to establish the feel of it in advance. But I also have the advantage of freebuzzing as a regular practice technique for several decades.
I still miss high notes sometimes. One thing that almost guarantees accuracy is to barely touch a freebuzz on the note I'm going to play, to establish the feel of it in advance. But I also have the advantage of freebuzzing as a regular practice technique for several decades.
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ttf_Matt K
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
What helps me the most, not having perfect pitch, is having good relative pitch. Spend some time studying aural theory. Being able to pick out which intervals exist in a chord. So if you are hearing on pitch, you can sing a 3rd/5th/7th/9th above it... then progress towards being able to identify the voicing of the chord, etc. Eventually you will get to the point with enough practice that you can pick out what else is going on around you and can generate the pitch in your head.
I did this, as Harrison suggested, by singing intervals with drones. Its tedious but really pays off after doing it only for a short while.
I did this, as Harrison suggested, by singing intervals with drones. Its tedious but really pays off after doing it only for a short while.
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ttf_savio
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Speaking about singing, when I studied music we had to sing something called "modus novus". It was atonal and help our ears and read music. But I was so nervous the first time so the teacher stopped me after the first note and told; did you all listen that note? It is the first time we heard a note without any overtones. We all had to laugh and I never forget that moment. He was a very good teacher and it was always a bit of humor in the way he teach.
Ok I can't hit so much high notes no matter thin or thick air. Lucky people like Doug with perfect pitch but we others can still practice our ears so it get closer. Many ways to do it and singing is one of them. By the way, lately I focused on high notes and in fact they are better. I can now play the Mozart requiem solo "nearly ok" each time I try. So it helps to practice things!
Leif
Ok I can't hit so much high notes no matter thin or thick air. Lucky people like Doug with perfect pitch but we others can still practice our ears so it get closer. Many ways to do it and singing is one of them. By the way, lately I focused on high notes and in fact they are better. I can now play the Mozart requiem solo "nearly ok" each time I try. So it helps to practice things!
Leif
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ttf_watermailonman
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: savio on Nov 03, 2017, 10:04AMSpeaking about singing, when I studied music we had to sing something called "modus novus". It was atonal and help our ears and read music. But I was so nervous the first time so the teacher stopped me after the first note and told; did you all listen that note? It is the first time we heard a note without any overtones. We all had to laugh and I never forget that moment. He was a very good teacher and it was always a bit of humor in the way he teach.
Ok I can't hit so much high notes no matter thin or thick air. Lucky people like Doug with perfect pitch but we others can still practice our ears so it get closer. Many ways to do it and singing is one of them. By the way, lately I focused on high notes and in fact they are better. I can now play the Mozart requiem solo "nearly ok" each time I try. So it helps to practice things!
Leif
Yes "Modus Novus" and before that book we had "Modus Vetus". I remember I was good at reading intervals when at the Music college, I guess it was because I sung a lot in choires. I did also study Singing at the college, and have actually that in my examina which led to I also had pupils in singing when working in the public music school. I taught both brass and singing.
Leif, we also had some books by Jörgen Jersild to practice rythm. Are they used in Norway too? We used our pencils to drum them on the desk or we sang them.
/Tom
Ok I can't hit so much high notes no matter thin or thick air. Lucky people like Doug with perfect pitch but we others can still practice our ears so it get closer. Many ways to do it and singing is one of them. By the way, lately I focused on high notes and in fact they are better. I can now play the Mozart requiem solo "nearly ok" each time I try. So it helps to practice things!
Leif
Yes "Modus Novus" and before that book we had "Modus Vetus". I remember I was good at reading intervals when at the Music college, I guess it was because I sung a lot in choires. I did also study Singing at the college, and have actually that in my examina which led to I also had pupils in singing when working in the public music school. I taught both brass and singing.
Leif, we also had some books by Jörgen Jersild to practice rythm. Are they used in Norway too? We used our pencils to drum them on the desk or we sang them.
/Tom
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ttf_Bob Riddle
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Lot's of good info here. Different things work for different people in regards to hitting high notes cold.I have heard the word "taste" used often from various players.My take is that taste is pretty much the same as "feel" .Personally I try to hear/feel the notes.If you are already a good player with a pretty good embouchure foundation,then there has to to be a physical/mental way to get your chop/body to know what to do.this like everything else we do it can be a learned thing.Be patient take your time,incorporate some of whats been said here.Someone mentioned playing the note/line an octave lower.That can be a big help if you can use that as a relationship point to your chop/body feel..Also,be patient. Incorporating any of these ideas takes time/patience and the ability to stay as relaxed as possible.
Good Luck!
Bob
Good Luck!
Bob
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ttf_LowrBrass
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 03, 2017, 06:04AMI don't think that follows. You still need to think it to hit it clean. And if you were able to play the lower octave with less precision, would that help you hit the higher one?
Yes.
If I aim a little too low or too high for the lower note, I can still "cleanly" hit the right partial. It may be flat or sharp, and I'll hear it and quickly adjust, but I'll still be solidly in the right partial.
If I aim a little too low or too high for the higher note, I'll hit a wrong partial.
So honing my accuracy on the more-forgiving lower note helps me better aim the less-forgiving higher note.
To Quiros' point (if I'm reading it right), this is exactly why low/pedal notes are tricky, too: the target is SO big that it's pretty easy to hit the right partial, but the pitch is SO forgiving that you can play an entire scale in a single partial without moving your slide (see also: Walt's Pedal Note Benders), which makes it very difficult to nail the right damn pitch without hearing it first.
In the end, these are all just mental techniques, and we've all got different brains, so whatever works for everyone's different brains, right?
Yes.
If I aim a little too low or too high for the lower note, I can still "cleanly" hit the right partial. It may be flat or sharp, and I'll hear it and quickly adjust, but I'll still be solidly in the right partial.
If I aim a little too low or too high for the higher note, I'll hit a wrong partial.
So honing my accuracy on the more-forgiving lower note helps me better aim the less-forgiving higher note.
To Quiros' point (if I'm reading it right), this is exactly why low/pedal notes are tricky, too: the target is SO big that it's pretty easy to hit the right partial, but the pitch is SO forgiving that you can play an entire scale in a single partial without moving your slide (see also: Walt's Pedal Note Benders), which makes it very difficult to nail the right damn pitch without hearing it first.
In the end, these are all just mental techniques, and we've all got different brains, so whatever works for everyone's different brains, right?
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ttf_sabutin
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Nov 03, 2017, 08:01AMPlaying - correct playing - always helps. If it doesn't help then it isn't correct. And to my understanding, there are two approaches to that - if I have it right in it's most simplistic terms:
---snip---
2) Burtis - the correct sound (via Caruso) creates the embouchure.
---snip---
...Geezer
That's not quite it, Geezer. It's more of a two-stage operation. Done right, Caruso-style exercises create a correct gestalt...the whole enchilada, from the in-breath and other physical, mental and musical preparations for the note to the initial attack and sustained tone. Attempting to make a "good" sound has nothing to do with that process, and in fact during the the early stages of doing Caruso stuff a good sound is very rarely present. One of the most difficult parts of learning Carmine's approach is giving up the attempt to sound "good" while doing his exercises, and that alone probably explains why there is so relatively little Caruso influence in mainstream pedagogy. Sounding bad in the practice room in front of all of your friends, enemies, competitors and teachers??? HORRORS!!! Having people sound bad in your teaching studio in front of your bosses and competitors? Ditto.
Carmine never encouraged people to "get a good sound" while playing his exercises. he just wanted us to do them the way he told us to do them. His point was that if you did his exercises well, a good sound would be the eventual result. The embouchure and all of the surrounding systems...breathing, support, horn angle, tongue and mouth/vocal cavity positions etc....are balanced out by doing Caruso-syle exercises, and then comes the good sound. One of the strongest points of the Caruso experience...for me, anyway...was sitting in the waiting room outside of his little teaching studio and hearing master musicians and young students alike struggle with his simplest exercises.
"How could the Six Notes/Intervals/Harmonics be that hard???" was the thought. "I thought it was only me. Phew!!!"
Yup.
Later...
S.
---snip---
2) Burtis - the correct sound (via Caruso) creates the embouchure.
---snip---
...Geezer
That's not quite it, Geezer. It's more of a two-stage operation. Done right, Caruso-style exercises create a correct gestalt...the whole enchilada, from the in-breath and other physical, mental and musical preparations for the note to the initial attack and sustained tone. Attempting to make a "good" sound has nothing to do with that process, and in fact during the the early stages of doing Caruso stuff a good sound is very rarely present. One of the most difficult parts of learning Carmine's approach is giving up the attempt to sound "good" while doing his exercises, and that alone probably explains why there is so relatively little Caruso influence in mainstream pedagogy. Sounding bad in the practice room in front of all of your friends, enemies, competitors and teachers??? HORRORS!!! Having people sound bad in your teaching studio in front of your bosses and competitors? Ditto.
Carmine never encouraged people to "get a good sound" while playing his exercises. he just wanted us to do them the way he told us to do them. His point was that if you did his exercises well, a good sound would be the eventual result. The embouchure and all of the surrounding systems...breathing, support, horn angle, tongue and mouth/vocal cavity positions etc....are balanced out by doing Caruso-syle exercises, and then comes the good sound. One of the strongest points of the Caruso experience...for me, anyway...was sitting in the waiting room outside of his little teaching studio and hearing master musicians and young students alike struggle with his simplest exercises.
"How could the Six Notes/Intervals/Harmonics be that hard???" was the thought. "I thought it was only me. Phew!!!"
Yup.
Later...
S.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: sabutin on Nov 05, 2017, 07:28AMThat's not quite it, Geezer. It's more of a two-stage operation. Done right, Caruso-style exercises create a correct gestalt...the whole enchilada, from the in-breath and other physical, mental and musical preparations for the note to the initial attack and sustained tone. Attempting to make a "good" sound has nothing to do with that process, and in fact during the the early stages of doing Caruso stuff a good sound is very rarely present. One of the most difficult parts of learning Carmine's approach is giving up the attempt to sound "good" while doing his exercises, and that alone probably explains why there is so relatively little Caruso influence in mainstream pedagogy. Sounding bad in the practice room in front of all of your friends, enemies, competitors and teachers??? HORRORS!!! Having people sound bad in your teaching studio in front of your bosses and competitors? Ditto.
Carmine never encouraged people to "get a good sound" while playing his exercises. he just wanted us to do them the way he told us to do them. His point was that if you did his exercises well, a good sound would be the eventual result. The embouchure and all of the surrounding systems...breathing, support, horn angle, tongue and mouth/vocal cavity positions etc....are balanced out by doing Caruso-syle exercises, and then comes the good sound. One of the strongest points of the Caruso experience...for me, anyway...was sitting in the waiting room outside of his little teaching studio and hearing master musicians and young students alike struggle with his simplest exercises.
"How could the Six Notes/Intervals/Harmonics be that hard???" was the thought. "I thought it was only me. Phew!!!"
Yup.
Later...
S.
Thank you, Sam. That is an extremely difficult concept for me to grasp. I think students would need one-on-one face time with an instructor of that system to really "get" it. I don't think it could be taught verbally over the Internet.
And I agree, who the heck wants to sound bad for an extended period of time until it all clicks. That right there would seem to be a deal-breaker for most.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent, folks. As you were...
...Geezer
Carmine never encouraged people to "get a good sound" while playing his exercises. he just wanted us to do them the way he told us to do them. His point was that if you did his exercises well, a good sound would be the eventual result. The embouchure and all of the surrounding systems...breathing, support, horn angle, tongue and mouth/vocal cavity positions etc....are balanced out by doing Caruso-syle exercises, and then comes the good sound. One of the strongest points of the Caruso experience...for me, anyway...was sitting in the waiting room outside of his little teaching studio and hearing master musicians and young students alike struggle with his simplest exercises.
"How could the Six Notes/Intervals/Harmonics be that hard???" was the thought. "I thought it was only me. Phew!!!"
Yup.
Later...
S.
Thank you, Sam. That is an extremely difficult concept for me to grasp. I think students would need one-on-one face time with an instructor of that system to really "get" it. I don't think it could be taught verbally over the Internet.
And I agree, who the heck wants to sound bad for an extended period of time until it all clicks. That right there would seem to be a deal-breaker for most.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent, folks. As you were...
...Geezer
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ttf_sabutin
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Nov 05, 2017, 08:11AM
---snip---
And I agree, who the heck wants to sound bad for an extended period of time until it all clicks. That right there would seem to be a deal-breaker for most.
---snip---
But...the other things that Carmine emphasized over and over again were:
1-Do not overdo his exercises
and
2-Always practice musical things as well as doing his exercises. And when you are playing with others...fuggedaboudit and just play.
Number 2 is where the "sound" thing came in. Doing Carmine's exercises in rational amounts does not immediately change the way you play. They sneak up on you on little cat feet. So there you are, playing a Rochut or a tune or the Cello Suites or whatever, pretty much as you have always been able to play them. Ditto in ensembles. A week, a month...some period of time goes by, and one day you notice you have ranges and flexibilities that you didn't have before. Or your sound through the ranges and volumes is better. Nothing radical, just...better. Not only that, Carmine's exercises are sounding better, too.
As His Royal Hipness Lord Buckley was wont to say, "Double euphoria head!!!"
And this continues...not necessarily in a straight line because there are always stops, starts and retreats, plus as Carmine liked to remind us "We're only human..."
But it continues.
As far as you can take it.
Bet on it.
S.
---snip---
And I agree, who the heck wants to sound bad for an extended period of time until it all clicks. That right there would seem to be a deal-breaker for most.
---snip---
But...the other things that Carmine emphasized over and over again were:
1-Do not overdo his exercises
and
2-Always practice musical things as well as doing his exercises. And when you are playing with others...fuggedaboudit and just play.
Number 2 is where the "sound" thing came in. Doing Carmine's exercises in rational amounts does not immediately change the way you play. They sneak up on you on little cat feet. So there you are, playing a Rochut or a tune or the Cello Suites or whatever, pretty much as you have always been able to play them. Ditto in ensembles. A week, a month...some period of time goes by, and one day you notice you have ranges and flexibilities that you didn't have before. Or your sound through the ranges and volumes is better. Nothing radical, just...better. Not only that, Carmine's exercises are sounding better, too.
As His Royal Hipness Lord Buckley was wont to say, "Double euphoria head!!!"
And this continues...not necessarily in a straight line because there are always stops, starts and retreats, plus as Carmine liked to remind us "We're only human..."
But it continues.
As far as you can take it.
Bet on it.
S.
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ttf_Torobone
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
I play lead bone in a Sinatra band. Some of the arrangements require a high dramatic entry, like a high C as the first note of the arrangement for Lady is a Tramp. This phrase is an octave below the lead trumpet, and continues for 8 bars. I have exposed shot notes on high Bb as well later in the piece.
Like Doug said, I don't always get them all, but I try. I'm mad if I miss any, and go home and practice more.
Two main ideas have been discussed:
1. How do I "hear" the note? Perfect pitch is indeed useful. I have good (according to some) pitch, but by no means perfect. Where possible, like before we start "Lady", I'll softly play middle C to get the note in my head.
2. Embouchure strength is also key. If you have the strength and technique to free buzz, I would suggest that you have a better chance of hitting the note than does that don't free buzz. Developing this strength is something that comes easy to some. It took 40 years of playing before it clicked for me about 10 years ago. Sam's comments are some of the best in this area.
3. Ok, here's a third idea. Having studied with Al Kay, I spent a lot of my lesson time with him on preparing for critical entries. His main idea is to get everything ready, including air and embouchure, and then use your tongue behind the teeth to hold everything in readiness. A quick release of the tongue starts the note at the right time. This takes a lot of practice. Anybody who has met Al knows him to be (one of) the best lead players ever.
This phrase is an octave below the lead trumpet, and continues for 8 bars. I have exposed shot notes on high Bb as well later in the piece.Like Doug said, I don't always get them all, but I try. I'm mad if I miss any, and go home and practice more.
Two main ideas have been discussed:
1. How do I "hear" the note? Perfect pitch is indeed useful. I have good (according to some) pitch, but by no means perfect. Where possible, like before we start "Lady", I'll softly play middle C to get the note in my head.
2. Embouchure strength is also key. If you have the strength and technique to free buzz, I would suggest that you have a better chance of hitting the note than does that don't free buzz. Developing this strength is something that comes easy to some. It took 40 years of playing before it clicked for me about 10 years ago. Sam's comments are some of the best in this area.
3. Ok, here's a third idea. Having studied with Al Kay, I spent a lot of my lesson time with him on preparing for critical entries. His main idea is to get everything ready, including air and embouchure, and then use your tongue behind the teeth to hold everything in readiness. A quick release of the tongue starts the note at the right time. This takes a lot of practice. Anybody who has met Al knows him to be (one of) the best lead players ever.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
I tried my wacko idea last night.
Yup, Sturgeon principle rules.
What if I could force myself to hear the note clearly in my head, by eliminating feedback from the trombone?
So I put in regular foam earplugs, then slapped on a set of Koss Pro-4A headphones playing white noise, and tried playing.
It didn't help. I could hear myself fine. If anything, it seemed louder than a practice mute, though softer than playing a straight mute. Actually it was kind of surprising how well I could hear myself.
I did try thinking the note an octave lower, rather than playing it, and this does seem to work.
Yup, Sturgeon principle rules.
What if I could force myself to hear the note clearly in my head, by eliminating feedback from the trombone?
So I put in regular foam earplugs, then slapped on a set of Koss Pro-4A headphones playing white noise, and tried playing.
It didn't help. I could hear myself fine. If anything, it seemed louder than a practice mute, though softer than playing a straight mute. Actually it was kind of surprising how well I could hear myself.
I did try thinking the note an octave lower, rather than playing it, and this does seem to work.
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ttf_ddickerson
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
To hear the pitch before you play it, try sitting down at a good piano, and play the pitches in the register that you're concerned with, and learn what they sound like. If you do this enough, when you need to play an A, you will be able to hear it, because you've heard it a thousand times.
Yes, this is done in the practice room.
Play an A on the piano, listen to it. Play the A on your trombone. Do this with all the pitches you have trouble with. It will get easier with time.
Yes, this is done in the practice room.
Play an A on the piano, listen to it. Play the A on your trombone. Do this with all the pitches you have trouble with. It will get easier with time.
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ttf_Radar
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Thanks again for all of the great suggestions, and discussion!! I'm definately working on trying to hear the tune before playing it, and thinking it an octave down first has seemed to help some. The more I play up there the easier it does seem to get, which seems like a much too obvious and overly simplified solution but it is working.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
The size of the lap makes a difference too.
Hitting a high D when I'm already on a C is not that hard. Hitting the same note, or rather thinking the same note, from Ab in the staff is a different task.
Hitting a high D when I'm already on a C is not that hard. Hitting the same note, or rather thinking the same note, from Ab in the staff is a different task.
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ttf_hyperbolica
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 09, 2017, 10:35AMThe size of the lap makes a difference too.
Hitting a high D when I'm already on a C is not that hard. Hitting the same note, or rather thinking the same note, from Ab in the staff is a different task.
Interval training covers a lot of ground, and this is part of it. Abto D is tritone, which should narrow it down for you a lot. Interval training helps your relative pitch and muscle memory associated with your inner ear can help with the rest. Repeating that interval over and over during several practice sessions help a lot.
Hitting a high D when I'm already on a C is not that hard. Hitting the same note, or rather thinking the same note, from Ab in the staff is a different task.
Interval training covers a lot of ground, and this is part of it. Abto D is tritone, which should narrow it down for you a lot. Interval training helps your relative pitch and muscle memory associated with your inner ear can help with the rest. Repeating that interval over and over during several practice sessions help a lot.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: hyperbolica on Nov 09, 2017, 10:54AMInterval training covers a lot of ground, and this is part of it. Abto D is tritone, which should narrow it down for you a lot. Interval training helps your relative pitch and muscle memory associated with your inner ear can help with the rest. Repeating that interval over and over during several practice sessions help a lot.
Yes. That kind of difficulty points out a gap in my skill set. I need to work more intervals. One thing that helps that is trying to play a tune by ear - if I can hear the leap in my mind, then identify the interval, I know what note to play next.
Yes. That kind of difficulty points out a gap in my skill set. I need to work more intervals. One thing that helps that is trying to play a tune by ear - if I can hear the leap in my mind, then identify the interval, I know what note to play next.
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ttf_slide advantage
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Picking out high notes out of thin air.
Quote from: hyperbolica on Nov 09, 2017, 10:54AMInterval training covers a lot of ground, and this is part of it. Abto D is tritone, which should narrow it down for you a lot. Interval training helps your relative pitch and muscle memory associated with your inner ear can help with the rest. Repeating that interval over and over during several practice sessions help a lot.
Good advice
Good advice