Another Wagner conundrum.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:52 pm

I conduct a local rehearsal orchestra. No public concerts and the only audience (free!) are family and friends. Having said that, we don't even allow them to come to our Spring term final session because that is when the conductor goes mad and chooses music which is far too difficult for us.

Now I am choosing music for next term and we will be doing Wagner's "Rienzi" Overture and Tchaikovsky's "6th Symphony" and I am wondering about including Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries" This is all about opportunities to play repertoire they would never get a chance to play anywhere else.

My problem is that from looking at YouTube recordings of "Ride" and looking at scores, the trombone sections sometimes use a contra and sometimes not, while the score doesn't seem to indicate it.

Can anyone give some guidance?

Thanks

Stewbones

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:03 pm

Your music probably has a part labeled "tuba" which is probably the contrabass trombone part.

Given the situation I'd just let the tuba player play the part and work with 3 trombones and tuba.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:28 pm

The scores indicate 4 trombones and a tuba (and a bass trumpet!) I have 4 trombones and a tuba.

Rienzi uses 3 trombones and an ophicleide/bass tuba and a contrabassoon/serpent. I was thinking of 3 Bb/F tenors and a bass trombone on the ophicleide part with the tuba playing the Contrabassoon/Serpent part. The ranges would work quite well.

I haven't, as yet, ordered the music so I don't know what the scoring will be apart from the brass being 8 horns (4 horns doubled) 3 trumpets, bass trumpet, 4 trombones, tuba.

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:30 pm

From a recent Facebook discussion in the bass trombone group I got the sense that when to use bass and when to use contra is not always clear and not always agreed upon to this day.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:38 pm

I remember Steve Norrell telling me that when he played The Ring for Levine, he was told to use his double valve bass trombone. In fact, a good bass trombone player can cover all the notes of a contrabass trombone part.

I'm not sure a contra (or even 4th trombone) is used in the Ride, although Die Valkyre is scored for 4 trombones and tuba. If you have 4 trombones, and there are 4 trombone parts, a TTBB ensemble should work.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:45 pm

If this is the usual published Ride extract - parts are a single side of paper, entitled "The Ride of the Valkyries" or somesuch similar, it's for a normal i.e. 3-player section. No contra, no bass trumpet.

The opera 4th trombone part makes more sense on bass than contra at that particular point, but I suspect that's not a relevant question here if it's the above version.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:59 pm

As I understand it, there are portions of Die Walküre where the fourth trombone part is more of a contra part. Never played the whole thing, myself. I have played "Ride" (the prelude to Act III) from the opera parts (Kalmus edition off of IMSLP); it has four parts and works well with a bass trombone on fourth.

It's somewhat dependent on how much of it you're going to play. If you go all the way to the end of Scene I, you get some low B's on the fourth part and a low D on the third - but most orchestras don't do the whole thing. If memory serves, we stopped somewhere around rehearsal number 18.

Die Walküre also has eight(!) horn parts. There are parts of the opera where four of the horns double on Wagner tuben, but one Ride they're all on horn. We only had four horns, so they ended up creating composite parts so that most of the lines were covered.

ttf_sf105 · Post by **ttf_sf105** » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:53 am

Ed Solomons will doubtless contribute soon here

I believe the Walkure part is a bass/contra double and that the Ride itself is for Bass. I've done it that way and it makes more sense than trying to play it on contra.

Alternatively, your orchestra might want to use one of the reduced (i.e. conventional) orchestra arrangements, especially if you're not hiring the 4 Wagner tuben.

S

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:11 am

I'm fairly sure the Ride is for bass. But Ring parts are a mess in general - lots of contradictions in different editions. Wouldn't be surprised that some editions have contra where others have bass and vice versa.

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:52 am

The Ring cycle trombone parts per se are not a mess in general. It is only the fourth trombone part that is a problem. To cut a long story short, the fourth trombone part is a doubling part for bass and contrabass trombone and for the Ride (the opening of Act III in Die Walküre), the fourth trombonist plays the bass trombone. I could go on at great length, suffice to say that for the purposes of keeping this discussion simple, the Ride of the Valkyries is intended to be for two tenor and two bass trombones.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:44 pm

Thank you everyone.

Ed, your final comment is interesting as I was thinking that it would be for 3 tenors and 1 bass. It is not a problem as I am fortunate enough to have 1 player who does alto, tenor and bass, 1 who does tenor, and 2 who do tenor and bass so it is feasible to follow your suggestion of 2+2.

Thanks again.

Stewbones

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:28 pm

There is no question about that part of the Ring cycle. The ride is NOT intended to be played on contrabass. Wagner expected contemporary trombones, which could have been any mixture of tenor and tenor/bass trombones, but 3 and 4 would be tenor/bass (Bb/F) for sure. Been there researched it.
It would help here on the forum if people refrained from posting if they they don't actually know the answer to a question. Simple but effective.
A lot of pros cheat by playing bass or contra all the time... don't give us examples here..... that is a personal choice. The history has been researched.

Chris Stearn

ttf_Rockymountaintrombone · Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:42 pm

If you are only doing the "Ride..." part of Die Walkure, most of the versions to buy/rent are for the normal 3 trombone and tuba section. While having the whole original Wagner orchestra there with 8 horns and bass trumpet, etc. would be fun, even professional orchestras would seldom use that version unless they were doing much larger, more significant excerpts of the opera that included the Ride in the mix. In that case, it's mostly cost driven, but even in a freebie situation, it would be a lot of hassle to find that many players, not to mention some of the instruments like bass trumpet.

Some of the smaller orchestrations sound better than others, but all of them give you a good overall view of the piece. The trombones get to play pretty much the same parts either way, and they are probably the only ones that will fully enjoy playing it. String players usually hate it - tons of notes, and very few of them are the tune!

Jim Scott

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:42 am

Quote from: Stewbones43 on Oct 13, 2017, 03:28PMRienzi uses 3 trombones and an ophicleide/bass tuba and a contrabassoon/serpent. I was thinking of 3 Bb/F tenors and a bass trombone on the ophicleide part with the tuba playing the Contrabassoon/Serpent part. The ranges would work quite well.

The one time I performed the Rienzi overture, we did it using a regular TTB section plus tuba and I ended up playing the serpent part on euphonium, which worked well, as Wagner never really scored for contrabassoon and the serpent is an 8 instrument, not 16.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:19 am

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Oct 15, 2017, 01:42AMThe one time I performed the Rienzi overture, we did it using a regular TTB section plus tuba and I ended up playing the serpent part on euphonium, which worked well, as Wagner never really scored for contrabassoon and the serpent is an 8’ instrument, not 16’.

Thanks Ed, that puts another option into the mix. The only problem is that my euphonium player, who also doubled on tenor and bass trombone, has recently left the orchestra to be replaced by one of the tenor and bass doublers.

More food for thought.

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:46 am

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Oct 15, 2017, 01:42AMThe one time I performed the Rienzi overture, we did it using a regular TTB section plus tuba and I ended up playing the serpent part on euphonium, which worked well, as Wagner never really scored for contrabassoon and the serpent is an 8 instrument, not 16.

Yes, the euphonium is a much closer sound to the serpent than using a big tuba. Still miles away but much closer. And a fairly good approximation of an ophicleide sound can be had on euphonium with a smaller mouthpiece, which is not really possible on a tuba.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:46 am

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Oct 15, 2017, 01:42AMThe one time I performed the Rienzi overture, we did it using a regular TTB section plus tuba and I ended up playing the serpent part on euphonium, which worked well, as Wagner never really scored for contrabassoon and the serpent is an 8 instrument, not 16.

Yes, the euphonium is a much closer sound to the serpent than using a big tuba. Still miles away but much closer. And a fairly good approximation of an ophicleide sound can be had on euphonium with a smaller mouthpiece, which is not really possible on a tuba.