That pesky high D....

[ttf_davdud101]

This has been mentioned in another somewhat recent thread, but I figured it'd be nice for my personal use to target this "issue" directly.
Right now, my useable full-sounding range tops out at about a #, with a good over that.

But for whatever reason, I am completely eluded by most the D and Eb in between. I can get the E just below since it only lies one position down, but moving the slide further causes me to drop partials entirely rather than land on an Eb or D in the positions following the E.

I clearly POSSESS the strength needed to play these notes, but I'm not sure if it's just that I tend towards using wrong positions or *what*. But I cannot, for the life of me, find these pitches on any horn.

Who knows what to do? I want to get to playing 2 and 3 octave scales in the high range, but lacking these notes makes it a bit of a "squeal-fest" on the in-between notes that don't seem to exist in my playing.

[ttf_BGuttman]

The traditional way to do it is a gliss from above and from below.  If you can hit Bb in 5 (I'm talking about the one 4 lines above the bass staff) you can gliss up to B natural, C, C# or D.  Also, try to gliss down from F to E, then Eb, and then D in 4th.

Note that C can be more comfortable in 1st and there is a D somewhere between 2nd and 3rd (don't remember exactly where).  Once you get above top Bb, there are a number of partials that work.

[ttf_Geezerhorn]

You probably do have the muscle.

Something that is helping me is slurring as softly as I can in 1st from (middle) Bb, up to F, up to (high) Bb, up to C, back down to (high) Bb, the (high) Bb up to C and on up to D, then back down to C and then (high) Bb.

Move down to 2nd and repeat. Move down to 3rd and repeat. Etc, all the way down. Or for a variation, I stop at third position and work back up.

I am trying for as natural, easy and open tone on D as I can get on the first (middle) Bb and that means concentrating on technique. The muscle will take care of itself. It's the lip membranes, tongue, etc I am training. It doesn't happen overnight.

Every once-in-a-while I will check to see how my high Eb is coming, but I am not concentrating on it until I get the cherry-popping sound on the high D that I want each and every time I want it.

I view high D as a speed bump for most trombone players. I will wager that after it is firmly secure and with a lovely tone, the other notes up to high F would be a lot easier, b/c all the correct mechanics are in place.

...Geezer

[ttf_VVJOFan]

For vehement anti-buzzers, skip this reply...

What worked, for me, to connect registers and fix annoying notes like G and Ab, was mouthpiece glisses of a third. Starting in the middle-low range (F on the staff) gliss up and down a third. Move up a semitone and gliss up and down a major third. [Do each three times before moving up a semitone. It is helpful to play chromatics on a keyboard with one hand while buzzing to keep your pitch honest.]

Work up to and through your problem registers trying to fill in the cracks so you have a totally smooth gliss. Rest as needed during the exercise.

This is not a one day fix. It takes a period time to really find your settings and to be able to move them smoothly through the ranges. You should feel better or sound betterright after doing it though.

[ttf_Quiros]

Quote from: BGuttman on Oct 04, 2017, 07:01AMNote that C can be more comfortable in 1st and there is a D somewhere between 2nd and 3rd (don't remember exactly where).  Once you get above top Bb, there are a number of partials that work.

I usually go for D in 2/3 and E-flat in 1/2. Easier to hit than the partial above, and my D in 1st tends to be flat.

[ttf_baileyman]

A couple thoughts:

One is that C and that neighborhood is a pretty common topping out point in the "hauling up", strength approach to higher notes.  I think what's happening in that case is having chops, mouth, breath tuned for something like F or G and then more tightness, more air, maybe more pressure, harder tonguing, tighter throat, C happens. 

Stop me if that's not what is happening. 

Two is that the jump to F sounds like a new embouchure and other face stuff tuned for that higher pitch.  Maybe lip compression, curl, piece moving, and F happens.  The effort at that pitch may not know how to modify for lower pitches.   

If I am reading this right, you may have something like an octave gap where the face-stuff is not tuned well to the partial you want to sound. 

sabutin has a million (or more) exercises that take those good lower notes and stretch them up, and those good higher notes and stretch them down, and fill in the blanks. 

I for one sure wish I had had some good higher notes to stretch down.  It's been a relentless stepping out into the higher unknown one baby step at a time.  Your problem seems much simpler. 

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

Acoustically, most trombones just doesn't resonate those pitches well, so you're not getting any help - you have to produce those yourself.  The F and even F# above it are very strong resonances so it's not at all unusual to get those strongly before you find the D.  When you do get a D working it's more like a controlled squeak that you can power through to sound like a real note.  Expect it to be a bit unstable.

[ttf_watermailonman]

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Oct 04, 2017, 02:26PMAcoustically, most trombones just doesn't resonate those pitches well, so you're not getting any help - you have to produce those yourself.  The F and even F# above it are very strong resonances so it's not at all unusual to get those strongly before you find the D.  When you do get a D working it's more like a controlled squeak that you can power through to sound like a real note.  Expect it to be a bit unstable.

Yes, to what Doug is saying but there is another important matter to consider too. It depends very much on how you tune your instrument.

I do not tune Bb at a closed position. I don't even tune my  D  at a closed position. The only notes I play at a closed position is the  on the valve and the  . All the other notes are off the bumpers.

If you tune your Bb  b at the bumpers then you have no high D on first. At least I haven't! Then your best choice is to find the note at a very, VERY flat second position, and that note is weaker. It is more reliable on first position, but then you need to play with "long positions". It could mean you have no    in 7:th 

/Tom

[ttf_Bimmerman]

That high Eb I've found locks in MUCH nicer in a super sharp 2nd, sharper than a regular G normally would. It has never been secure for me in 3rd for whatever reason.

I was able to get a good F long before I had a usable D. I could squeal the really high Bb about as well as I could 'play' a D, while having a note-like F and Eb. Weird. It took a while before that turned into actual usable notes, and I think the only exercise I did was playing the west side story somewhere solo over and over and over when I was young. It worked, but also annoyed the hell out of my parents.

[ttf_Andrew Meronek]

In addition to comments already provided, don't worry too much about having a great tone in that range at first, either. Tone comes with experience in the high register, after you've built up the muscle strength and memory of how it properly feels. The important thing when building range is to make sure that your registers are "connected" in the sense that you can slur in and out of your high register. If you have a high register but you can't do that, it likely means that you're fighting the natural mechanics of your embouchure in some way.

[ttf_Geezerhorn]

Something I learned today: I will no longer think of certain notes as "pesky" or "unstable" or anything other than potentially terrific. I don't want to enable any negative associations with any note and by so doing perhaps cause myself to tense up and maybe do something awkward. If a certain note takes time, it takes time. If a certain note needs TLC to make nice with, it needs TLC. But I am not going to put the horn up to my face thinking "Uh-oh" on any given note. I want to believe that if I give my chops the correct mechanics, they will "learn" to work it out.

Believe it or not, notes starting on F in the staff and going downward used to be "pesky" and I found myself approaching them differently than any other note above. Bad form became enabled and the situation became a "self-fulfilling prophecy', so to speak. I had to retrain myself to just play a middle F in a more relaxed state. In time, my chops retrained, one note at a time, all the way down the slide. Now I don't give those notes a second thought (well, until now lol). My point is to build up a good mental approach and a good mechanical technique for all notes - including a fabulous high D - and they will come. No note wants to be forced out and no one wants to hear a note that is.

...Geezer   

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Quote from: watermailonman on Oct 04, 2017, 04:13PMYes, to what Doug is saying but there is another important matter to consider too. It depends very much on how you tune your instrument.

I do not tune Bb at a closed position. I don't even tune my  D  at a closed position. The only notes I play at a closed position is the  on the valve and the  . All the other notes are off the bumpers.

If you tune your Bb  b at the bumpers then you have no high D on first. At least I haven't! Then your best choice is to find the note at a very, VERY flat second position, and that note is weaker. It is more reliable on first position, but then you need to play with "long positions". It could mean you have no    in 7:th 

/Tom


+1

[ttf_sterb225]

I have been chasing the outer reaches of the possible range for years and have recently come to the realization that 'less is more'.  Simply put, all that strength built working towards the higher reaches can be too much of a good thing with the larger stronger muscles at the outer edges of the aperture overtaking and choking off the inner portions that need to stay softer and compliant to produce the buzz.  I consciously try to do the least possible amount of work as I head up the scale, keeping the buzz from getting choked off and dying and not letting the air speed up tot the point that I need to press or pinch ... if its not coming easy I must be doing something out of whack.  All that said, the reliability of that dreadful area that has the D in it is great improved.

[ttf_timothy42b]

I have Maxted 9 on the stand this week. 

I can't tell a lot of difference between the D and the F and the notes in between.

What I really struggle with in this range, actually about from the A up, is hearing where the notes are.

They're above my vocal range, and I haven't played them thousands of times like the notes an octave down, and i end up missing them high or low because I'm not sure enough in my brain of where that note is. 

The Maxted does help, because the patterns are usually so logical they point to the note.  But it's a work in progress. 

[ttf_svenlarsson]

Quote from: sterb225 on Oct 04, 2017, 06:35PMI have been chasing the outer reaches of the possible range for years and have recently come to the realization that 'less is more'.  Simply put, all that strength built working towards the higher reaches can be too much of a good thing with the larger stronger muscles at the outer edges of the aperture overtaking and choking off the inner portions that need to stay softer and compliant to produce the buzz.  I consciously try to do the least possible amount of work as I head up the scale, keeping the buzz from getting choked off and dying and not letting the air speed up tot the point that I need to press or pinch ... if its not coming easy I must be doing something out of whack.  All that said, the reliability of that dreadful area that has the D in it is great improved.


Right on the money!

The problem for very many students have is just what is described above.
The airflow must be permitted to pass the lips, to many players are squezing the lips together.

Of course the "tuning Bb" should not be against the bumper.

There are three positions to chose for high D, 1.  2,5.  and 4.
If the embouchure isn´t ready for the tone, no positions will work. So keep practising.
If you have the chops and want to find the 1,5 position (it is very delicat) try the following, it may help, if it does not just forget it.
Play an A on the fifth line for two beats, then legat to D above the staff on 4 pos. Do it again but now the D is on 1pos. Move up one octave, the same positions. Now try A - D the D now in the middle of 1 and 4 positions, what I call 2,5 (it is a thad closer to 2) .
Now play F# (on #3 pos.) to D on 2,5. Then work on A F# D, F# A D many times until you find the spot.
If you don´t care to find it you can always play it on 1 pos. if your Bb is out from the bumper enough.

I like to play the high tones on the mpc, making sure that the embouchure is not to tight. If you have a reason to not do that just forget it.

[ttf_Pre59]

I don't remember reading on this forum about using flexibilities to build range, rather that a steady long note climb. Is it not a recognised way anymore?

[ttf_hyperbolica]

Quote from: Pre59 on Oct 05, 2017, 02:38PMI don't remember reading on this forum about using flexibilities to build range, rather that a steady long note climb. Is it not a recognised way anymore?

Do you mean the interval exercises? I use those to maintain range and more than that to maintain accuracy, confidence and the ability to hear the high notes. Plus for flexibility too. Recognized or not, I still use them and recommend when asked.

[ttf_sterb225]

I started to make the greatest strides when I added slurs that start at Bb at the bottom of the staff and extend to (and now through) the F two octaves above the staff.  This is what helps me maintain the 'feel' of a soft and open aperture up into the high range as well as start the air flow out slow and relaxed so I'm not trying to muscle through the high notes with fast air pushing against a stiffly set (pinched) aperture.  My absolute limit of squeak was F two octaves above and now I am getting a clean F (still with limited power) and my squeak ends at the next Bb above.  The dreaded D through E area are real notes in any of the positions.  The next big step is going to be folding these new notes into more melodies during my practice so they are more in my ear when the need arises outside the practice room.  The other most recent change is that I have added an Axe Handle to my horn - making it less likely for tension to develop in my grip and translate into pressing.

[ttf_Pre59]

Quote from: hyperbolica on Oct 05, 2017, 03:39PMDo you mean the interval exercises? I use those to maintain range and more than that to maintain accuracy, confidence and the ability to hear the high notes. Plus for flexibility too. Recognized or not, I still use them and recommend when asked.

Yes to both of the above posts. I have my own versions as well, but I'm surprised that this technique that was prevalent back in the day doesn't get get discussed much now. Having a super high range that one can't musically slur up to, or down from is not much practical use.

[ttf_Geordie]

My high range is a work in progress.  Knowing what pitch/sound you want to hear before you play has been critical for me. Much helped by some earlier advice here about playing familiar tunes an octave higher. Knowing the tune helps me anticipate the required sound/pitch. 

[ttf_svenlarsson]

Quote from: Pre59 on Oct 05, 2017, 02:38PMI don't remember reading on this forum about using flexibilities to build range, rather that a steady long note climb. Is it not a recognised way anymore?
Absolutelly right.
I have allways used flexibilities both for my self and for my students.
Its funny that it is so selldom mentioned in TTF as a good way to build embouchure.
One of my favorites is triplets : (partials) 6,565,454,353,2 and eightnote: 2435,4658,6543,2 and 1324,3546,5432,1. 4658,6986,4658,698--. 68,910,98,68,9-  and so on as high as you like, try staying on the high tone for at least 4 beats.
This is just exemples, with just a little imagination you can lots of patterns.

[ttf_savio]

Svenne, partial 6 is F above the staff? I'm not so familiar with the partials yet. But partial 1 is pedal Bb?

Leif

[ttf_Pre59]

Quote from: svenlarsson on Yesterday at 02:19 AMAbsolutelly right.
I have allways used flexibilities both for my self and for my students.
Its funny that it is so selldom mentioned in TTF as a good way to build embouchure.
One of my favorites is triplets : (partials) 6,565,454,353,2 and eightnote: 2435,4658,6543,2 and 1324,3546,5432,1. 4658,6986,4658,698--. 68,910,98,68,9-  and so on as high as you like, try staying on the high tone for at least 4 beats.
This is just exemples, with just a little imagination you can lots of patterns.

They're also a great way to keep practice fresh; there must be millions of possible note combinations, and it's almost essential for those who want to use fretting for jazz improvisation. Triplets are my fave at the moment..

[ttf_svenlarsson]

Quote from: savio on Yesterday at 12:27 PMSvenne, partial 6 is F above the staff? I'm not so familiar with the partials yet. But partial 1 is pedal Bb?

Leif
Yes.
As long as we stay in the first position yes. Pedal E is still the first partial. F above the staff on the first position it is the sixth partial, if played on fourth position it is the seventh, played on the sixth position it is the eight partial.
All the tones in the seventh partiak are flatt. All the tones in eleventh partial are in the middle of two tones, so both flatt or sharp depending on what ton you compare it with. ( like high Eb on very sharp second or very flatt first, both right just a matter of whom you studied with)

In first position the partials line up from the bottom (pedal)  1 Bb,  2 Bb, 3 F, 4 Bb, 5 D, 6 F, 7 Ab, 8 Bb, 9 C, 10 D, 11 E/Eb, 12 F, 13 G/Gb, 14 Ab, 15 A, 16 Bb.
Trumpet players in the reanesance played somtimes up to the 32nd partial. Some (rather few) trombone players include the 24th partial in their performance range.

The "doubble pedals" are not part of this, neither the "falsett stimme", fake tones.
You did not come to Stockholm this summer? 

[ttf_savio]

Thanks Svenne, then I got it. Eleventh partial you say, that's just a dream yet but I get the tenth on a good day. I was in Örebro this summer and visited some relatives, but the rest of the family wouldn't go to Stockholm. Instead we was in a museum with lot of war airplanes near Linköping. In fact lot of things there even for the kids. Didn't know Sweden had so solid amount of many different war airplanes through the history. And we was also some days at Liseberg, the kids and the wife demands it so I have nothing to say. I'm only allowed to buy thickets as usual and wait. Thanks god they have beer.

Anyway, my high register is in fact little better after I have practiced it more the last half year. More control up to high Bb at least.


Leif

[ttf_svenlarsson]

You have a beautiful low range that I and many other on TTF love. The singing range!

[ttf_svenlarsson]

You have a beautiful low range that I and many other on TTF love. The singing range!