Looking for a professional trombone

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:28 pm

Hello, my name is Kenneth and Im a freshman who plays trombone. Currently I have a 606 King trombone which I have played since sixth grade. I am the best trombone in my grade and we have a fairly large school.I play in pep band and I am the only freshmen in jazz band 1, which I play 2nd chair in. What Im worried about is that all the other trombone in jazz band have good f attachment horns and I have a student trombone so I am looking to purchase a good trombone. Ive been looking at eBay and I would like some help figuring out which horn I should get. Some Ebay links I have looked at are https://www.ebay.com/itm/322768638745 , https://www.ebay.com/itm/263239966771 , https://www.ebay.com/itm/152717487657 , https://www.ebay.com/itm/232503865572 , and https://www.ebay.com/itm/162692674231 . Let me know if these are good or bad or if you have any recommendations for me. My price range is ~$1000

ttf_MikeBMiller · Post by **ttf_MikeBMiller** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:51 pm

Kenneth -

The only problem with ebay is you can't try a horn out and most sellers won't let you return it if you don't like it. I have bought several horns on ebay and some were great while others were not so great and I ended up selling them. I don't know where you live, but in many areas there are a lot of trombones on Craigslist that can actually try before buying. Dillonmusic.com is a good source of used instruments and I believe they will give you a trial period. And the classified ads on this forum can be a good source of used instruments. Just make sure to work out a trial period with the seller before committing to anything. Good luck on your purchase.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:03 pm

I don't want to stop you, but you don't need an F-attachment to play 1st or 2nd trombone in Concert Band, Big, Band, or Orchestra. In fact, a large bore with F will sound a bit fuzzy on the top parts; especially if you are playing on too big a mouthpiece for your stage of development.

The choice of what to buy (if anything) should be taken with your teacher. If you don't have one you should get one.

Note also: don't shop on price. The really cheap horns (especially on Ebay) are not worth the price.

Are you experiencing some snobbery among your section mates? You are probably better equipped for Jazz Band than they are.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:27 pm

When you're trying to choose between a Bach 42BO and a Conn 48 it's an indication you should not be thinking about changing your horn until you get a little more idea what the different horns sound like. Those are two completely different trombones - almost in the the greatest extreme possible.

The Conn 48H is a nice horn for jazz band or in 1st or 2nd in a concert band. Your King 606 is better for that kind of playing than a Bach 42B, the Conn 88H would not be totally out of place for 2nd chair in the concert band, but would not be my first choice for 2nd chair in jazz band.

Perhaps what you really need is a King 3B. Get out and try some horns if you can.

ttf_bhcordova · Post by **ttf_bhcordova** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:14 pm

Your freshman year is not the best time to be looking for a professional grade horn. Marching band can be very hard on a horn. It's better to get a professional grade horn once you've gotten into college. Then your college trombone instructor can advise you on a new horn.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:22 pm

Quote from: BillO on Oct 02, 2017, 01:27PMWhen you're trying to choose between a Bach 42BO and a Conn 48 it's an indication you should not be thinking about changing your horn until you get a little more idea what the different horns sound like. Those are two completely different trombones - almost in the the greatest extreme possible.

The Conn 48H is a nice horn for jazz band or in 1st or 2nd in a concert band. Your King 606 is better for that kind of playing than a Bach 42B, the Conn 88H would not be totally out of place for 2nd chair in the concert band, but would not be my first choice for 2nd chair in jazz band.

Perhaps what you really need is a King 3B. Get out and try some horns if you can.

My thought too is to recommend s King 3B with F-valve or a Bach 36 Bb/F. A cheaper trombone could be a Benge 175f, also with a trigger. The King is the smallest and can be used in both jazz and classical music both as an amateur and professional. It is a good trombone if you need to play 3:rd in a big band or first and second in a symphonic wind orchestra or brass band. It could also be the choice for first or second in a big band although I think a King 2b fits those parts better. A Bach 36 or a (used) Benge 175f is between the 48h and a conn 88h in size and then you lean more towards the classical repertoire. I played the second part on my Bach 36BO this weekend with a professional wind orchestra over here, and the first trombone player used a Conn 88h. I picked a 5G sized mouthpiece to get the most out of the loud sections and to blend better with the larger Conn 88h. The difference in size is not that big and a lot of the sound is in the mouthpiece and of course in the emboschure. Some of the arrangements fit the smaller instrument better and I even scaled down and used a more shallow mouthpiece when we had to play ppp. I think my set up had the advantage in the softer nuances. That said: A Bach 36 can fit a professional wind orchestra very well and you can change the sound a lot with the help of different mouthpieces and/or leadpipes.

What about ebay?

I have had good experience with ebay. Most of the trombones I have bought have been great horns, but I tend to like ALL kinds of horns and accept and like the differences. If you are not rich you should not take the risk of buying something you might not like. In that case it is probably safer to try before you buy.

/Tom

ttf_ranttila · Post by **ttf_ranttila** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:08 pm

Thanks for all of the advice guys. Sounds like Ill need to do some more research about what trombones will fit a 1st and 2nd part. Ill talk to my band teacher about getting a trombone and see what he thinks. I like your suggestions of the king 3b because it looks like the bore isnt too big or too small. I have one more question though. How do I know if I get a good trombone or a bad trombone even if Im just trying it out? What should I look for as far as quality? Also, if you want to give me any more advice and what bone I should buy, tell me.

-Kenneth

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:23 pm

If you need this much help you should have someone who knows something about trombones go shopping with you. You will need somebody who can recognize if a trombone has been damaged and how serious the damage is. You need somebody who can recognize the difference between a slide badly out of alignment versus a slide that just needs a clean and lube.

If the Bank of Mom and Dad can help, a new Yamaha 640 might be the ticket. Yamaha trombones are probably the safest buy out there -- any one you grab will play like any other. And the medium bore will cover almost any requirement.

If the Bank of Mom and Dad is not quite as flush, a new Wessex Tubas Medium Bore with F might be a good alternative (don't know the model number).

But a used King 3B with F from a reputable dealer could be just the ticket.

ttf_ranttila · Post by **ttf_ranttila** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:52 pm

Quote from: bhcordova on Oct 02, 2017, 02:14PMYour freshman year is not the best time to be looking for a professional grade horn. Marching band can be very hard on a horn. It's better to get a professional grade horn once you've gotten into college. Then your college trombone instructor can advise you on a new horn.

I forgot to say but Ive already been in marching band for 2 years

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:00 pm

Don't get rid of the 606. It's a perfect horn for Marching Band and for Pep Band. If you get a better horn, you want to keep it as long as possible and Marching Band and Pep Band are both hard on instruments (not just trombones).

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:11 pm

I feel a good used horn may as well be purchased now as long as you can take care of it. Large or medium. Doesnt really matter at this point unless youre winning all state and playing in front of orchestras already. Plus if it turns out you gel better with a large bore horn when youre developing there are plenty of Bach 42x owners who probably will be looking to trade for a 36x or the like. Downsizing and upsizing is what a lot of trombonists do. Thats not good or bad really. Preferences and playing venues change as players change.

That being said you definitely will change... youre a freshman. And in my opinion a jazz band shouldnt have all large horns in the trombone section. Thats not the sound they should be teaching high schoolers. But it is a sound that some pros like. Play your appropriately-sized trombone in jazz band and if you can protect a high end instrument from careless students around you ( a high schooler just brought in his trumpet that got kicked down the football bleachers when a kid ran up the bleachers not the stairs in the band area ) get some lessons to gauge your physiology and whether or not you can make use of a different instrument at this point.

ttf_ranttila · Post by **ttf_ranttila** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:00 am

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Oct 02, 2017, 10:11PM ( a high schooler just brought in his trumpet that got kicked down the football bleachers when a kid ran up the bleachers not the stairs in the band area )Ouch thats gotta hurt

ttf_crazytrombonist505 · Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:49 am

Here is a Benge 175F (which is similar to a King 3B) for sale in the classified add section here on the forum. My experience with Benge trombones has been very good. A good price and from a trusted seller.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,102106.0.html

Good luck!

ttf_crazytrombonist505 · Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:50 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Oct 02, 2017, 06:00PMDon't get rid of the 606. It's a perfect horn for Marching Band and for Pep Band. If you get a better horn, you want to keep it as long as possible and Marching Band and Pep Band are both hard on instruments (not just trombones).

Agreed!

ttf_Bjroosevelt · Post by **ttf_Bjroosevelt** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:59 am

I've just completed a shopping experience for my son who is in his second year of middle school concert band. I'm told he plays at about a freshman level.

My recommendations:

1). Find some music stores and try out some used instruments. Write down the brand name/model numbers....what you liked about them and what you didn't. After trying several of each brand, you will have a much better feel for which brand of instrument is right for you. For my kid, every Conn he played was golden. Every Bach was horrid.

2). If you are interested in Jazz band, don't penalize yourself with a large (.550 - .585) bore. 0.525 max. You don't even need a dual bore. 0.525 has 3 major benefits. A) It is an intermediate horn so it will most likely cost you a lot less if bought used, than a large bore. B) It will sound better for Jazz than a large bore. C). It will take less air so it will be easier to play than a large bore. Your face won't turn nearly as red.

3). F-trigger is cool, but not necessary. With that said, the F-trigger is very motivating to my son. He has private lessons and his teacher has him use the F-trigger during each lesson because it makes certain passages easier to play.

4). I forgot to mention. If you are still playing a 12C mouthpiece, upgrade to a 5G or a 6.5AL before you buy a new horn......otherwise you are just wasting your money on a new horn.

For school, my son plays a King 608f which we acquired used from DJ Kennedy on the Trombone Forum. You might want to contact. DJ to see what he has after you have tried out some used instruments at you local shops. For home, my son has an old Conn 88H which has this incredibly beautiful mellow sound. It is clearly harder for him to play than the King. The mellowness of the tone would most likely get lost in his school band.

ttf_ranttila · Post by **ttf_ranttila** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Oct 03, 2017, 09:59AM4). I forgot to mention. If you are still playing a 12C mouthpiece, upgrade to a 5G or a 6.5AL before you buy a new horn......otherwise you are just wasting your money on a new horn.

I use a 12c mouthpiece. Whats the difference between the three mouthpieces and why does it make that much of a difference if I keep using the 12c mouthpiece rather than getting the others?

ttf_Bruce the budgie · Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:34 pm

The 12C has a shallower cup than the others. When I swapped mine out for a 6 1/2 AL (teacher recommendation) on a .500 bore Bach beginner horn, I immediately noticed a difference in tone. At the time I compared it to replacing worn-out fiddle strings with new ones: warmer, fuller, and easier on the ears.

Nowadays I use a 5G on a .525 Yamaha trigger horn; it gives me the smooth full tone I like. It also lets me make the bell sizzle, but Im still working on finding tasteful, articulate ways to apply that effect.

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:02 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Oct 02, 2017, 06:00PMDon't get rid of the 606. It's a perfect horn for Marching Band and for Pep Band. If you get a better horn, you want to keep it as long as possible and Marching Band and Pep Band are both hard on instruments (not just trombones).
Bruce Guttman is right on.

Additional comments:
You're a high school freshman. You have lots of growing to do - physically and as a musician.
You may remain a trombonist, but your needs and desires will surely change over the next several years.
You are not yet a professional - so you really don't need a "professional" trombone. Yet!

For Jazz Band (and Pep Band) a straight trombone (without F-attachment) is perfectly satisfactory.
This is actually what a true professional would play, except for the Bass Trombone part.
That being said,
¤ I understand that in certain parts of the U.S., high school band directors encourage their
marching band students to play F-attachment trombones.
No musical advantage there, and some cost in terms of weight, flexibility, and potential
damage to the instruments - but they do it anyway. (Perhaps they think it looks cool?)
¤ There are some real advantages to an F-attachment, in terms of ease of playing some of the
6th & 7th position notes, and convenience.
But most trombonists - especially in high school - don't really NEED an F-attachment.

I agree with BJRoosevelt that a 0.525" bore trombone would be a perfect "step up" from the 606,
if you want to "go larger." A 0.547" bore (like the Conn 88H and Bach 42 horns you looked at)
would almost certainly be too much. And without guidance from a competent trombone teacher,
taking on a large-bore could actually make your tromboning worse at this stage of your life.

There are plenty of options for fine USED small-bore (0.500" and 0.508") and medium-bore (0.525")
trombones, with and without F-attachments. An excellent place to shop for such an instrument is
right here on the Trombone Forum. Lots of helpful, knowledgeable, honest folks who may be
willing to part with one of their treasures. Check the Classified Ads; if you don't see what you want,
post a "WTB" (Want To Buy) message outlining your desires.

The 12C mouthpiece is probably just fine for your small-bore 606. For a "fatter" sound to complement your
F-attachment band mates, you may want to experiment with a slightly larger mouthpiece
(e.g., 11C, 7C, 6¾C, 6½A - or their rough equivalents in other brands).
If you acquire a medium-bore horn, you could go as large as a 6½AL (or rough equivalent).
Depending on your anatomy and playing style, as you mature you may want to experiment with other pieces
that may be a little larger yet. But if I were your teacher, I'd caution you to wait a while.

ttf_wayne88ny · Post by **ttf_wayne88ny** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:30 pm

Quote from: ranttila on Oct 03, 2017, 05:55PMI use a 12c mouthpiece. Whats the difference between the three mouthpieces and why does it make that much of a difference if I keep using the 12c mouthpiece rather than getting the others?

Nothing wrong with a 12C. My first trombone teacher, who freelanced a lot around town (big bands, combos, Ice Capades, etc.), played a King 2B with a 12C mouthpiece. In my opinion, a 5G is not a good mouthpiece for a trombone with a bore smaller than .525 Personnaly, I wouldn't use a 6 1/2AL on a trombone with a bore smaller than .525, although a lot of players do. As you can see, there's a wide variety of opinions on mouthpieces, so don't use a certain mouthpiece just because someone tells you to (including me). When it comes to mouthpieces, there is no one size that fits all players. Most importantly, if a mouthpiece does not play well for you with the trombone you are using, at whatever stage of development you are at, don't use it. You will only slow your progess if you are struggling with your equipment.

ttf_Bjroosevelt · Post by **ttf_Bjroosevelt** » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:16 am

Agree with Bruce the Budgie and the group.

Try out a 6.5AL. Most music shops will let you try one out on your current horn before purchasing. Bach makes them for $70 - $90 or so. Other companies make the 6.5AL size and cost less. You can buy used if it is in decent condition. I think you will be surprised how much it improves your tone (and even range).. The 6.5AL is the stock mouthpiece on many 0.525 bore horns. I'd be shocked if it doesn't make your current horn A LOT better.

Son had a Bach TB300 (.500) bore peashooter when he started. After about a year he upgraded to a larger mouthpiece. He could get a lot more out of his instrument with it. He settled in on the 6.5AL after trying several others. He still uses the 6.5AL on the King 608.

In addition, getting used to a 6.5AL mouthpiece will make your transition to a 0.525 bore horn much easier. Getting used to a larger horn and a large mouthpiece at the same time is simply more difficult than simply getting used to a larger horn. Good luck.

ttf_ranttila · Post by **ttf_ranttila** » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:50 am

Would a 6.5AL mouthpiece work well on a .508 like the king 3b or would there be a smaller mouthpiece that would be better to play with?

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:48 am

Quote from: ranttila on Oct 04, 2017, 04:50AMWould a 6.5AL mouthpiece work well on a .508 like the king 3b or would there be a smaller mouthpiece that would be better to play with?
I believe it comes with a 6.5AL. My 3B did.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:49 am

Quote from: ranttila on Oct 04, 2017, 04:50AMWould a 6.5AL mouthpiece work well on a .508 like the king 3b or would there be a smaller mouthpiece that would be better to play with?

That depends more on you than the horn. I know people playing 3B's (and the like) with 6.5 AL's and lots of other mouthpieces. If the mouthpiece fits, use it. If not, use something else. Your teacher should be the best guide.

ttf_Bjroosevelt · Post by **ttf_Bjroosevelt** » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:07 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Oct 04, 2017, 05:49AM....... If the mouthpiece fits, use it. If not, use something else. Your teacher should be the best guide.

I think this means: "if the mouthpiece fits you"....like it gives you the sound you want and it helps you play better....Just about any small shank mouthpiece will 'fit' the horns you are considering.

Need to reaffirm the importance of trying a new mouthpiece before buying....My son currently uses the 6.5AL which his horn teacher believes is a highly over-rated mouthpiece.....but my son still uses it.....Why? Because his teacher heard him playing the mouthpiece. It is pretty obviously that the 6.5AL is the right mouthpiece for my son on his King horn. His teacher would never use it for himself.

I think that the most popular mouthpieces use the coding system Bach uses. 12C, 5G, 6.5AL etc. There are other manufacturers that use different coding systems - i.e. Yamaha, Schilke. You will be able to find reference charts for cup size, diameter, back bore etc online if you want to compare the physical specs. I think Yamaha makes a 12C too, but I believe most of the rest of their mouthpieces use a totally different numbering system....not sure. Schilke uses a 100% different coding system.

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:43 am

The numbers are guidelines unless youre Scott Laskey or Doug Elliott. ( maybe others? ). Their mouthpieces use numbers that coresponds units of measurement that we actually use. Dougs 115 bass trombone rim is 1.15 and Scotts 93 rim is 29.3mm. But thats according to how they measure them. And there are so many more factors to the rim size and shape and then theres the cup and throat and backbore and even the overall length.

Use what fits you and what makes the right sounds and what doesnt make things difficult.

ttf_John the Theologian · Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:14 pm

Quote from: ranttila on Oct 04, 2017, 04:50AMWould a 6.5AL mouthpiece work well on a .508 like the king 3b or would there be a smaller mouthpiece that would be better to play with?

I play a Marcinckewicz 8H-- same size as a Bach 6 1/2 AL but different shaped rim--on my Conn 48H and it works great. A Conn 48H is a small bore.

BTW, Bach 6 1/2 ALs are available all over-- many in good used condition, but there are many similar mouthpieces that are the same size. Besides the M 8H that I play, other manufacturers used the Bach numbering system such as Benge, UMI, FAXX and are very close in size. Others here on the forum can suggest other brands such as Yamaha-- I believe the Y 48 is similar-- so you should be able to get a used mp in good shape for minimal cost.

I would suggest looking here on the forum for a used mp in the 6 1 1/2 AL size and give it a try.

ttf_ranttila · Post by **ttf_ranttila** » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:56 pm

Quote from: crazytrombonist505 on Oct 03, 2017, 06:49AMHere is a Benge 175F (which is similar to a King 3B) for sale in the classified add section here on the forum. My experience with Benge trombones has been very good. A good price and from a trusted seller.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,102106.0.html

Good luck!

Do you guys think that this is a good quality trombone for the price? Im thinking about buying it.

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:58 pm

Yes, the Benge 175F would have been a good buy - nice, well-made 0.525" bore F-attachment trombone at a fair price from an honest & responsible Trombone Forum seller. This size trombone would work well with a 6½A or 6½AL mouthpiece. Unfortunately, it has apparently come and gone (probably sold) at eBay.

Strike while the iron is hot!

ttf_Woolworth · Post by **ttf_Woolworth** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:06 am

(excerpt from my trombone clinic)

There is so much to be said about instruments, mouthpieces, and accessories. It's difficult to discuss instruments in "absolutes" because people are different, play differently, and have different needs. One size NEVER fits all. Rather than recommend specific brand names or models, I will attempt to give you some information regarding the advantages and disadvantages of various instruments.

Equipment

1) Beginner Trombone-a small bore (.500) straight tenor instrument. As the name implies, this instrument will serve you well for the first two or three years. Because of its high resistance it is easy for a beginner to produce a characteristic tone with these instruments, but as your playing matures you will outgrow this instrument.

2) Intermediate or Step Up Trombone-a medium bore(.525) instrument, possibly with an F attachment. A good choice for the advancing high school student. These instruments are playable in any solo or ensemble situation, and will serve you even into college.

3) Professional Trombones-there are a myriad of options available, including bore size, bell size, bell flare, brass composition, plating, lightweight slides, and valve types. The choice of a professional instrument depends on the type of playing you do.

Choosing An Instrument

1) A small-bore tenor is a must for big band playing. They are also appropriate for marching band, jazz combo, and commercial playing. They are not always appropriate for concert band, orchestra, and chamber music. They may be used on certain period solo work (i.e. Arthur Pryor). These instruments are characterized by a bright and cutting tone. Bore sizes range from .484 to .510.

2) A Medium-bore tenor with an F-attachment is your best choice if your goal is to play through high school, and possibly into college, but not pursue music as a career. This instrument is usable in every playing situation, from solo and chamber music to symphony orchestra and big band. If you own only one instrument it should be a medium bore tenor. Bore size is .525.

3) A large-bore tenor with an F-attachment is a good choice for symphony performance and the majority of solo work, due to its full, dark tone. It is useful in chamber music as well as concert band. It may work in the jazz combo but is inappropriate in the big band, except possibly on the 3rd part or as a substitute for a bass trombone. Bore size is .547.

4) A Bass Trombone, as the name implies, is used specifically for playing the lowest parts in an ensemble. In the last 75 years the bass trombone has also emerged as a viable solo instrument, and many great works are written specifically for this magnificent instrument. They are available with single or double valves, and bell sizes up to 10 ½ inches. Bore size is .562.

ttf_John the Theologian · Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:10 am

Quote from: Woolworth on Oct 05, 2017, 07:06AM(excerpt from my trombone clinic)

There is so much to be said about instruments, mouthpieces, and accessories. It's difficult to discuss instruments in "absolutes" because people are different, play differently, and have different needs. One size NEVER fits all. Rather than recommend specific brand names or models, I will attempt to give you some information regarding the advantages and disadvantages of various instruments.

Equipment

1) Beginner Trombone-a small bore (.500) straight tenor instrument. As the name implies, this instrument will serve you well for the first two or three years. Because of its high resistance it is easy for a beginner to produce a characteristic tone with these instruments, but as your playing matures you will outgrow this instrument.

2) Intermediate or Step Up Trombone-a medium bore(.525) instrument, possibly with an F attachment. A good choice for the advancing high school student. These instruments are playable in any solo or ensemble situation, and will serve you even into college.

3) Professional Trombones-there are a myriad of options available, including bore size, bell size, bell flare, brass composition, plating, lightweight slides, and valve types. The choice of a professional instrument depends on the type of playing you do.

Choosing An Instrument

1) A small-bore tenor is a must for big band playing. They are also appropriate for marching band, jazz combo, and commercial playing. They are not always appropriate for concert band, orchestra, and chamber music. They may be used on certain period solo work (i.e. Arthur Pryor). These instruments are characterized by a bright and cutting tone. Bore sizes range from .484 to .510.

2) A Medium-bore tenor with an F-attachment is your best choice if your goal is to play through high school, and possibly into college, but not pursue music as a career. This instrument is usable in every playing situation, from solo and chamber music to symphony orchestra and big band. If you own only one instrument it should be a medium bore tenor. Bore size is .525.

3) A large-bore tenor with an F-attachment is a good choice for symphony performance and the majority of solo work, due to its full, dark tone. It is useful in chamber music as well as concert band. It may work in the jazz combo but is inappropriate in the big band, except possibly on the 3rd part or as a substitute for a bass trombone. Bore size is .547.

4) A Bass Trombone, as the name implies, is used specifically for playing the lowest parts in an ensemble. In the last 75 years the bass trombone has also emerged as a viable solo instrument, and many great works are written specifically for this magnificent instrument. They are available with single or double valves, and bell sizes up to 10 ½ inches. Bore size is .562.

Very nice summary.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:35 am

Quote from: Woolworth on Oct 05, 2017, 07:06AM(excerpt from my trombone clinic)

There is so much to be said about instruments, mouthpieces, and accessories. It's difficult to discuss instruments in "absolutes" because people are different, play differently, and have different needs. One size NEVER fits all. Rather than recommend specific brand names or models, I will attempt to give you some information regarding the advantages and disadvantages of various instruments.

Equipment

1) Beginner Trombone-a small bore (.500) straight tenor instrument. As the name implies, this instrument will serve you well for the first two or three years. Because of its high resistance it is easy for a beginner to produce a characteristic tone with these instruments, but as your playing matures you will outgrow this instrument.

2) Intermediate or Step Up Trombone-a medium bore(.525) instrument, possibly with an F attachment. A good choice for the advancing high school student. These instruments are playable in any solo or ensemble situation, and will serve you even into college.

3) Professional Trombones-there are a myriad of options available, including bore size, bell size, bell flare, brass composition, plating, lightweight slides, and valve types. The choice of a professional instrument depends on the type of playing you do.

Choosing An Instrument

1) A small-bore tenor is a must for big band playing. They are also appropriate for marching band, jazz combo, and commercial playing. They are not always appropriate for concert band, orchestra, and chamber music. They may be used on certain period solo work (i.e. Arthur Pryor). These instruments are characterized by a bright and cutting tone. Bore sizes range from .484 to .510.

2) A Medium-bore tenor with an F-attachment is your best choice if your goal is to play through high school, and possibly into college, but not pursue music as a career. This instrument is usable in every playing situation, from solo and chamber music to symphony orchestra and big band. If you own only one instrument it should be a medium bore tenor. Bore size is .525.

3) A large-bore tenor with an F-attachment is a good choice for symphony performance and the majority of solo work, due to its full, dark tone. It is useful in chamber music as well as concert band. It may work in the jazz combo but is inappropriate in the big band, except possibly on the 3rd part or as a substitute for a bass trombone. Bore size is .547.

4) A Bass Trombone, as the name implies, is used specifically for playing the lowest parts in an ensemble. In the last 75 years the bass trombone has also emerged as a viable solo instrument, and many great works are written specifically for this magnificent instrument. They are available with single or double valves, and bell sizes up to 10 ½ inches. Bore size is .562.

It is easy to write a list like this. A young player could read that list and think that this simplified look on things is the truth. A .500 horn can be a beginners horn but it can also be a professionals horn. It is not a horn that you outgrow. If you read your list you could draw that to conclusion. There are other things too I have arguments with in the list. The term step-up horn suggest you have to change if/when you become a better player or grow up. Look at the individual player and his needs in his context is another way to look at it.

I do agree that a .500 horn as a good beginners horn, but this is another case. There are a lot of reasons not starting on big equipment. One is weight, one is air, one is cost, since the valve adds to the cost of the instrument. If it is the "children's horn"- better described as a C-trombone with a Bb valve - it could be different because it makes it possible to play the whole register within five positions. Could be good if you are a small beginner with short arms.

/Tom

ttf_Woolworth · Post by **ttf_Woolworth** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:53 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Oct 05, 2017, 07:35AMIt is easy to write a list like this. A young player could read that list and think that this simplified look on things is the truth. I do not agree to the rules you apply to those categories. A .500 horn is not a NON professional horn that you outgrow. If you read yor list you could draw that to conclusion. There are other things too I have arguments with in the list. The term step-up horn suggest you have to change if/when you become a better player or grow up. Your list is to much details. Look at the individual player and his needs instead of labelling everything in detail.

Please re-read my first paragraph.

ttf_pizzaman · Post by **ttf_pizzaman** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:46 am

Quote from: Woolworth on Oct 05, 2017, 07:06AM(excerpt from my trombone clinic)

1) Beginner Trombone-a small bore (.500) straight tenor instrument. As the name implies, this instrument will serve you well for the first two or three years.

Student horns I'm familiar with are outgrown after a decade of daily practice.

Quote from: Woolworth on Oct 05, 2017, 07:06AM(excerpt from my trombone clinic)
2) Intermediate or Step Up Trombone-a medium bore(.525) instrument, possibly with an F attachment. A good choice for the advancing high school student.

Reminds me of my local music store telling parents step up horns are silver.

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:43 am

I believe what he was getting at is that a step up instrument ( still cheap and not geared towards people who make their living playing or are capable of feeling the difference between build qualities ) would tend to be .525 because students most likely can only afford one trombone so it should be able to fit in with a wind ensemble or orchestra like a large bore and also in a jazz band like a small bore. I was fortunate enough to have several horns at my disposal when in high school playing bass trombone in jazz band, large bore in wind ensemble, small bore in another jazz band and combos, and any other group I could play in.

Some step up trombones are exactly the same as a student horn like the YSL-354 and YSL-200AD

cheeky beaky, but it works and they still seem to sell them.

ttf_crazytrombonist505 · Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:56 am

OP, if you are still looking for a horn, here is a very nice King 3b w/ F attachment on eBay with a starting bid of $650. This horn looks like its in nice shape.

https://www.ebay.com/i/142539632466

Good luck!

(Im not associated with the seller or sale)

ttf_ranttila · Post by **ttf_ranttila** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:59 am

Quote from: crazytrombonist505 on Oct 16, 2017, 05:56AMOP, if you are still looking for a horn, here is a very nice King 3b w/ F attachment on eBay with a starting bid of $650. This horn looks like its in nice shape.

https://www.ebay.com/i/142539632466

Good luck!

(Im not associated with the seller or sale)

Thanks for the recommendation! I might just buy it.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:47 am

All trombones have the opportunity to be professional. Its just waiting for the right trombonist.

Leif

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:09 am

What has your trombone teacher suggested?

If you don't have one then get one .., a far better investment of your $1000

Once the top two are answered and you know what horn you need...talk to DJ!!

ttf_ranttila · Post by **ttf_ranttila** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:44 am

Quote from: vegasbound on Oct 20, 2017, 10:09AMWhat has your trombone teacher suggested?

If you don't have one then get one .., a far better investment of your $1000

Once the top two are answered and you know what horn you need...talk to DJ!!
I honestly have not found the time to talk to my teacher one on one about buying a trombone.

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:50 am

Quote from: ranttila on Oct 20, 2017, 10:44AM I honestly have not found the time to talk to my teacher one on one about buying a trombone.

Then make time...it is important to get his/ her input as he/she knows you and your playing..... Same goes for any change in mouthpiece etc

ttf_ranttila · Post by **ttf_ranttila** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:28 pm

Quote from: crazytrombonist505 on Oct 16, 2017, 05:56AMOP, if you are still looking for a horn, here is a very nice King 3b w/ F attachment on eBay with a starting bid of $650. This horn looks like its in nice shape.

https://www.ebay.com/i/142539632466

Good luck!

(Im not associated with the seller or sale)

Thanks for the shout, but unfortunately I got beat out in the bidding war.

ttf_crazytrombonist505 · Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:29 am

Quote from: ranttila on Oct 21, 2017, 07:28PM Thanks for the shout, but unfortunately I got beat out in the bidding war.

It happens...

Dont stop looking. More horns will pop up that you may have better luck on.

ttf_Roscotrombone · Post by **ttf_Roscotrombone** » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:09 am

Quote from: savio on Oct 20, 2017, 09:47AMAll trombones have the opportunity to be professional. Its just waiting for the right trombonist.

Leif

The very well known composer/arranger Alan Fernie (UK brass band scene mainly) has helped us out at a couple of contests.

He usually plays on a Yamaha 354 but on one occasion he had loaned it to someone and turned up with a Bach Prelude borrowed from a school he teaches in....a cheap student horn by all accounts.

All I can say is that liquid gold came out of that bell.

Cue the rush to buy a cheap student horn!!

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:41 pm

It is said that Jack Teagarden could make anything sound great (although he also said that the R counterweight on a Reynolds he was playing stood for "Rotten"). We often say it: it's usually the Indian more than the arrow.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:05 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Oct 29, 2017, 12:41PMit's usually the Indian more than the arrow.

In way more things than just music. Understanding this (despite the saying being just a little outdated, ahem...) is a key along the path to success in life.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:49 pm

And what's wrong with saying that First Nations people are good archers? In fact some tribes were and some weren't. You may hear of buffalo hunting Creae with good archery skills but I don't know the Hopi or Zuni to have been so famed. Sorry, sidebar. And we really shouldn't be calling them Indians -- it was an error made 500 years ago by an Italian sailing for Castile.

ttf_ranttila · Post by **ttf_ranttila** » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:00 pm

Update: Im getting a beautiful LT36GO from DJ Kennedy. Im really excited to get it, but it hasnt shipped yet.

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:21 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Oct 29, 2017, 06:49PMAnd what's wrong with saying that First Nations people are good archers? In fact some tribes were and some weren't. You may hear of buffalo hunting Creae with good archery skills but I don't know the Hopi or Zuni to have been so famed. Sorry, sidebar. And we really shouldn't be calling them Indians -- it was an error made 500 years ago by an Italian sailing for Castile.

Please stop.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:31 pm

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Nov 05, 2017, 08:21PMPlease stop.

I did.

Incidentally, ranttila, you made a great choice. I'm sure you will be happy with it.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:31 pm

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Nov 05, 2017, 08:21PMPlease stop.

I did.

Incidentally, ranttila, you made a great choice. I'm sure you will be happy with it.