Pedal tone question

[ttf_jmtheob]

Hi, Everybody,

Anyone have any insight into why, on my bass, Ab and G pedals are more of a struggle than any of the others (e.g. not so hard with with A or F and on down to C pedal)? My lips don't "catch as easily on those two. 

[ttf_Exzaclee]

I'm posting primarily to see the replies of other bass trombonists.

I want to ask, though, how much have you experimented with moving the positions around? I find with both of these notes that they respond better with shorter slide positions.

[ttf_jmtheob]

Quote from: Exzaclee on Oct 01, 2017, 01:12PMI'm posting primarily to see the replies of other bass trombonists.

I want to ask, though, how much have you experimented with moving the positions around? I find with both of these notes that they respond better with shorter slide positions.

Yes, I had suspected that somehow the pedal was not quite in tune with the partial above it acoustically, but it didn't seem to make much difference.

[ttf_sonicsilver]

Many bass trombonists (and tenor trombonists for that matter) have an embouchure shift somewhere around pedal G, Gb, F or possibly E, to keep going into lower pedal notes.

Perhaps, for your face, Ab and G are the last bits of the pre-shift embouchure and not quite as solid as the Bb and A, or the post-shift pedals Gb downwards.

[ttf_greenbean]

Quote from: sonicsilver on Oct 01, 2017, 02:14PMMany bass trombonists (and tenor trombonists for that matter) have an embouchure shift somewhere around pedal G, Gb, F or possibly E, to keep going into lower pedal notes.

Perhaps, for your face, Ab and G are the last bits of the pre-shift embouchure and not quite as solid as the Bb and A, or the post-shift pedals Gb downwards.


This describes my situation exactly.  I usually shift at Gb and below.  So, Ab and G are getting close to where I need to shift but not quite.  I am trying to build as much overlap as possible:  I would like to be able play pedals from maybe G down using the high placement (shifted) but also play down as low as possible with my regular embouchure - at least as far as F.  I think the more overlap you have, the more flexibility. 

[ttf_jmtheob]

Quote from: sonicsilver on Oct 01, 2017, 02:14PMMany bass trombonists (and tenor trombonists for that matter) have an embouchure shift somewhere around pedal G, Gb, F or possibly E, to keep going into lower pedal notes.

Perhaps, for your face, Ab and G are the last bits of the pre-shift embouchure and not quite as solid as the Bb and A, or the post-shift pedals Gb downwards.



That makes some sense.  I am striving to follow the Phil Teele advice about not shifting and that may be what I have to work on.  Thanks for the opinions and keep em coming.  I'll try them all.

[ttf_kbiggs]

I think Phil Teele also says (1) that the pedal tone warm-ups are an "ideal" situation, and you should strive for discipline by doing your best to play the pedals without an embouchure shift* or mouthpiece replacement* AND (2) in a performance all bets are off, and you do what you need to do to get the notes to speak. (Perhaps it was Gabe, or Chris, or Sam who said it... maybe someone else...)

The audience doesn't care whether you play the note "correctly," with optimal support, proper embouchure, etc. They just want to hear the music, in this case, a pedal tone. 

Doing the Teele exercises in a disciplined manner (as prescribed) allows you to expand the pedal range downward so that you can eventually, with deliberate practice and patience, play a pedal F or E (for example) with the "normal" placement and with the "shift" placement*. That is, you develop some overlap with these two different mpc placements* or embouchure settings*.   


*I'm using these terms interchangeably. Some folks make a distinction, but my feeling/belief is that in this situation, there isn't any difference. Reasonable people can disagree.

[ttf_savio]

Quote from: Exzaclee on Oct 01, 2017, 01:12PMI'm posting primarily to see the replies of other bass trombonists.

I want to ask, though, how much have you experimented with moving the positions around? I find with both of these notes that they respond better with shorter slide positions.

I think that is because you are not "firm" enough on the pedals. Strange thing is we get tired if we play lot of low notes. We loosen up and the pitch go down. To the OP I dont have any answer why pedal Ab and G is problem. Could it be the horn?

I have a question to all bass trombone players; I find all pedals so easy to get in tune? But I still have big problems to get the pedals below E and Eb sound very strong(fff)  Pedal C# and C is like impossible to get stronger than mf. B and double pedal Bb is just whispering. Why is it so? I tried the method of Alan Raph but it didnt work for me.

Leif

[ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist]

I find I get much more fatigued playing high/tenor than low/bass. There would be dozens of explanations... but what I’ve found with regard to this thread is that pedals seem to be more smooshy. Super easy to bend a fifth or so and they take more work to learn where the centers are for each note on each trombone I play. This, again, could be personal. Your trouble notes do sound familiar that around a shift point the notes are less secure.

[ttf_GetzenBassPlayer]

As others have said, it is probably where you need to shift. James Markey has a video where he explains why you need to shift to play the pedal notes. It is very informative. I practice my pedal tones everyday. I will play Bordogni down two octaves in addition to doing a exercise where I do something similar to Phil Teele except I do it with shifts.

[ttf_Burgerbob]

I used to have a large issue with that range. Nowadays I gliss through them with a big, full sound to make sure I'm not changing too much with my face to make anything happen. Harder than it sounds at first.

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: kbiggs on Oct 01, 2017, 03:49PMI think Phil Teele also says (1) that the pedal tone warm-ups are an "ideal" situation, and you should strive for discipline by doing your best to play the pedals without an embouchure shift* or mouthpiece replacement* AND (2) in a performance all bets are off, and you do what you need to do to get the notes to speak. (Perhaps it was Gabe, or Chris, or Sam who said it... maybe someone else...)

The audience doesn't care whether you play the note "correctly," with optimal support, proper embouchure, etc. They just want to hear the music, in this case, a pedal tone. 

Doing the Teele exercises in a disciplined manner (as prescribed) allows you to expand the pedal range downward so that you can eventually, with deliberate practice and patience, play a pedal F or E (for example) with the "normal" placement and with the "shift" placement*. That is, you develop some overlap with these two different mpc placements* or embouchure settings*.   


*I'm using these terms interchangeably. Some folks make a distinction, but my feeling/belief is that in this situation, there isn't any difference. Reasonable people can disagree.

Teele is on the money.... work and work to play pedals without a shift.... it will be good for you in developing flexibility. On the gig do anything that works and don't worry about it.
In the OP's case, I suspect that the issue may be the instrument itself or the instrument/mouthpiece combination.... he should try another instrument and see if the problem is the same. If it goes it's the instrument, if it's the same there is a shift going on.

Chris Stearn

[ttf_svenlarsson]

Quote from: savio on Oct 01, 2017, 04:20PMI think that is because you are not "firm" enough on the pedals. Strange thing is we get tired if we play lot of low notes. We loosen up and the pitch go down. To the OP I dont have any answer why pedal Ab and G is problem. Could it be the horn?

I have a question to all bass trombone players; I find all pedals so easy to get in tune? But I still have big problems to get the pedals below E and Eb sound very strong(fff)  Pedal C# and C is like impossible to get stronger than mf. B and double pedal Bb is just whispering. Why is it so? I tried the method of Alan Raph but it didnt work for me.

Leif
Yes Leif, if the pedals are played with a to relaxed embouchure embouchure they go flatt.
For me firm corners (yes it should be debated: what is firm corners really?) is a key.
For me, I practise (every day) all pedals (and doubble pedals) as low as I can, long and loud. But I do also practise the shifts. My shifts: I drop my jaw slightly keeping the lips in the mouthpiece, not separating the lips. For the lowest pedals and doubble pedals the mpc moves towards my nose, a little.
It is astonishing how differently people can play very good!
And how a good working embouchure can be destroyed by a teacher who believs on a holy grale embouchure.
As Sam say, you can try everything, use wht works, but don´t keep what does not work!

[ttf_sabutin]

Quote from: sonicsilver on Oct 01, 2017, 02:14PMMany bass trombonists (and tenor trombonists for that matter) have an embouchure shift somewhere around pedal G, Gb, F or possibly E, to keep going into lower pedal notes.

Perhaps, for your face, Ab and G are the last bits of the pre-shift embouchure and not quite as solid as the Bb and A, or the post-shift pedals Gb downwards.



Bingo!!!

S.

[ttf_sabutin]

Quote from: sonicsilver on Oct 01, 2017, 02:14PMMany bass trombonists (and tenor trombonists for that matter) have an embouchure shift somewhere around pedal G, Gb, F or possibly E, to keep going into lower pedal notes.

Perhaps, for your face, Ab and G are the last bits of the pre-shift embouchure and not quite as solid as the Bb and A, or the post-shift pedals Gb downwards.



Bingo!!!

S.