There has been some recent interest in Besson 10-10 trombones so here is a link to a 1958 catalogue with all the brass instruments which were for the American market.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/10gl6dk11bhz5ai/Besson%201958.pdf?dl=0
Cheers
Stewbones
Besson 10-10 information
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ttf_Stewbones43
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ttf_walldaja
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Besson 10-10 information
Thanks for posting. I got a silver 10-10 around 1966 and played it through high school and in several Salvation Army bands. I sold it to my best friend in high school just before I graduated and have regretted it ever since. He played it in the US Navy and then his son took it to high school and college. Last time I saw him I asked if I could see it and he admitted it had gotten in really poor shape though he was thinking about getting it refinished.
I came across a new-old-stock 2-20 but the gentleman who had it wanted $1,200 for it.
We do stupid things when we're young.
I came across a new-old-stock 2-20 but the gentleman who had it wanted $1,200 for it.
We do stupid things when we're young.
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ttf_Stewbones43
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Besson 10-10 information
Quote from: walldaja on Oct 10, 2017, 11:54AM
I came across a new-old-stock 2-20 but the gentleman who had it wanted $1,200 for it.
We do stupid things when we're young.
We can do stupid things when we are older so beware, $1200 for a student horn is way too much. If it is new old stock then $500 would be as high as I would go. It is a small bore horn rather like the old Conn 14H, but much stronger. An ideal Marching Band horn!
Cheers
Stewbones
I came across a new-old-stock 2-20 but the gentleman who had it wanted $1,200 for it.
We do stupid things when we're young.
We can do stupid things when we are older so beware, $1200 for a student horn is way too much. If it is new old stock then $500 would be as high as I would go. It is a small bore horn rather like the old Conn 14H, but much stronger. An ideal Marching Band horn!
Cheers
Stewbones
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ttf_Stewbones43
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Besson 10-10 information
Quote from: walldaja on Oct 10, 2017, 11:54AMThanks for posting. I got a silver 10-10 around 1966 and played it through high school and in several Salvation Army bands. I sold it to my best friend in high school just before I graduated and have regretted it ever since. He played it in the US Navy and then his son took it to high school and college. Last time I saw him I asked if I could see it and he admitted it had gotten in really poor shape though he was thinking about getting it refinished.
I came across a new-old-stock 2-20 but the gentleman who had it wanted $1,200 for it.
We do stupid things when we're young.
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,102579.0.html
This may be of interest to anyone looking for a 10-10. The Boosey and Hawkes "Imperial" 523A is a badge-engineered version of the 10-10.
Rumour was that the Besson name was better regarded in the US where Boosey and Hawkes were considered to be a purely British focused manufacturer aiming only at the British Military and Brass Band scene, so instruments for the US market were Bessons but identical instruments for the UK market were either brand. 10-10s were not officially sold in the UK but you could buy an identical B&H Imperial 523 or a Besson Academy.
Cheers
Stewbones
Cheers
Stewbones
I came across a new-old-stock 2-20 but the gentleman who had it wanted $1,200 for it.
We do stupid things when we're young.
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,102579.0.html
This may be of interest to anyone looking for a 10-10. The Boosey and Hawkes "Imperial" 523A is a badge-engineered version of the 10-10.
Rumour was that the Besson name was better regarded in the US where Boosey and Hawkes were considered to be a purely British focused manufacturer aiming only at the British Military and Brass Band scene, so instruments for the US market were Bessons but identical instruments for the UK market were either brand. 10-10s were not officially sold in the UK but you could buy an identical B&H Imperial 523 or a Besson Academy.
Cheers
Stewbones
Cheers
Stewbones
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ttf_MaestroHound
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Besson 10-10 information
Quote from: Stewbones43 on Oct 14, 2017, 09:24AMhttp://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,102579.0.html
This may be of interest to anyone looking for a 10-10. The Boosey and Hawkes "Imperial" 523A is a badge-engineered version of the 10-10.
Rumour was that the Besson name was better regarded in the US where Boosey and Hawkes were considered to be a purely British focused manufacturer aiming only at the British Military and Brass Band scene, so instruments for the US market were Bessons but identical instruments for the UK market were either brand. 10-10s were not officially sold in the UK but you could buy an identical B&H Imperial 523 or a Besson Academy.
Oh good to know. I just recently picked one up (satin silver plated) from a surplus store for really low price (for the condition) at $199. I believe it was used in the Canadian military. I had played 10-10 before, too, but since it is silver plated I wasn't sure if the slide was nickel or not. It does feel somewhat lighter than how I remember 10-10 to have played, though.
It sure is pretty!
This may be of interest to anyone looking for a 10-10. The Boosey and Hawkes "Imperial" 523A is a badge-engineered version of the 10-10.
Rumour was that the Besson name was better regarded in the US where Boosey and Hawkes were considered to be a purely British focused manufacturer aiming only at the British Military and Brass Band scene, so instruments for the US market were Bessons but identical instruments for the UK market were either brand. 10-10s were not officially sold in the UK but you could buy an identical B&H Imperial 523 or a Besson Academy.
Oh good to know. I just recently picked one up (satin silver plated) from a surplus store for really low price (for the condition) at $199. I believe it was used in the Canadian military. I had played 10-10 before, too, but since it is silver plated I wasn't sure if the slide was nickel or not. It does feel somewhat lighter than how I remember 10-10 to have played, though.
It sure is pretty!
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ttf_Stewbones43
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Besson 10-10 information
Hi MaestroHound,
That looks to be a very nice B&H "Imperial" but is it the 523 version? It is difficult to judge sizes on photographs so here are some clues to help.
Standard "Imperial" bore was 0.487in and bell was around 7.25in; 523 was 0.523in bore and 8in bell. The 523 had a spring loaded hand slide(Sometimes removed!) the standard "Imperial" had plain bumpers(cork or fabric)
The width of the bell section makes me think that yours is the standard model; think a cross between a King 2B and an Abrams Tank. It will play lead trombone in a big band or front row in a college marching band!
Cheers
Stewbones
That looks to be a very nice B&H "Imperial" but is it the 523 version? It is difficult to judge sizes on photographs so here are some clues to help.
Standard "Imperial" bore was 0.487in and bell was around 7.25in; 523 was 0.523in bore and 8in bell. The 523 had a spring loaded hand slide(Sometimes removed!) the standard "Imperial" had plain bumpers(cork or fabric)
The width of the bell section makes me think that yours is the standard model; think a cross between a King 2B and an Abrams Tank. It will play lead trombone in a big band or front row in a college marching band!
Cheers
Stewbones
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ttf_MaestroHound
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Besson 10-10 information
Quote from: Stewbones43 on Oct 14, 2017, 02:02PMHi MaestroHound,
That looks to be a very nice B&H "Imperial" but is it the 523 version? It is difficult to judge sizes on photographs so here are some clues to help.
Standard "Imperial" bore was 0.487in and bell was around 7.25in; 523 was 0.523in bore and 8in bell. The 523 had a spring loaded hand slide(Sometimes removed!) the standard "Imperial" had plain bumpers(cork or fabric)
The width of the bell section makes me think that yours is the standard model; think a cross between a King 2B and an Abrams Tank. It will play lead trombone in a big band or front row in a college marching band!
Yes, it is a 523--says 523A on the bell (not sure what "A" stands for. "America" for North America exports, "Army" for military production, or??), and the bore is a hair smaller than lower leg of Yamaha 456G (.525"), so .523" sounds about right. Bell is 8" as well. Yes, spring loaded bumper--still there. I would love to try the "standard" version, too, if I get a chance, though!
That looks to be a very nice B&H "Imperial" but is it the 523 version? It is difficult to judge sizes on photographs so here are some clues to help.
Standard "Imperial" bore was 0.487in and bell was around 7.25in; 523 was 0.523in bore and 8in bell. The 523 had a spring loaded hand slide(Sometimes removed!) the standard "Imperial" had plain bumpers(cork or fabric)
The width of the bell section makes me think that yours is the standard model; think a cross between a King 2B and an Abrams Tank. It will play lead trombone in a big band or front row in a college marching band!
Yes, it is a 523--says 523A on the bell (not sure what "A" stands for. "America" for North America exports, "Army" for military production, or??), and the bore is a hair smaller than lower leg of Yamaha 456G (.525"), so .523" sounds about right. Bell is 8" as well. Yes, spring loaded bumper--still there. I would love to try the "standard" version, too, if I get a chance, though!
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ttf_Goddardo
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Besson 10-10 information
I hadn't realised that some of the Besson and Boosey & Hawkes instruments were the same. Was this true for the entire ranges or just a few instruments? Did this change with time?
This catalogue was an interesting read. Besson were not lying about the response and slide (lightning quick even before slide lubricant is added). Thank you for posting it.
This catalogue was an interesting read. Besson were not lying about the response and slide (lightning quick even before slide lubricant is added). Thank you for posting it.
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ttf_Stewbones43
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Besson 10-10 information
Good for you with the much rarer 523(A) "Imperial".
Sorry I can't help with the significance of the "A" after the 523.
The standard small bore "Imperial" is not uncommon on UK Ebay but beware, many are the older, converted high pitch models and most will have had a pretty rough life.
The Besson 8-10 shown in the catalogue link at the start of this thread was the same as the small bore "Imperial", as was the Besson "Academy 402".
My 10-10 had an aftermarket F section added, possibly by Paxmans, the UK French Horn makers.
Cheers
Stewbones
Sorry I can't help with the significance of the "A" after the 523.
The standard small bore "Imperial" is not uncommon on UK Ebay but beware, many are the older, converted high pitch models and most will have had a pretty rough life.
The Besson 8-10 shown in the catalogue link at the start of this thread was the same as the small bore "Imperial", as was the Besson "Academy 402".
My 10-10 had an aftermarket F section added, possibly by Paxmans, the UK French Horn makers.
Cheers
Stewbones
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ttf_Stewbones43
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Besson 10-10 information
Quote from: Goddardo on Oct 15, 2017, 05:25AMI hadn't realised that some of the Besson and Boosey & Hawkes instruments were the same. Was this true for the entire ranges or just a few instruments? Did this change with time?
This catalogue was an interesting read. Besson were not lying about the response and slide (lightning quick even before slide lubricant is added). Thank you for posting it.
Hi Mark,
Following the amalgamation of Boosey and Hawkes with Besson UK in 1948, the companies soon rationalised their product ranges.
The B&H student line was "Regent" and the Besson equivalent was "Westminster". These covered all brass band instruments and Bb trumpets.
The B&H intermediate or step-up line was "Emperor" and the Besson was "Stratford". There were trumpet, cornet and tenor trombone(Bb and Bb/F) models in these ranges.
The B&H professional line was the "Imperial" and the Besson line was "New Standard" for valved instruments and "Academy" for trombones although some trombones, especially the older G bass trombones were "New Standard" models. The 8-10 was a professional line.
All the above models were identical within their 3 groups except for engraving and valve caps and finger buttons. There were different counter weights on the trombones also.
French horns were covered by imported student models under the Lafleur/Alliance label and there was an "Imperial" full double horn which was a clone of the Alexander 103 model with the 6 port rotary change valve. I have no information about any Besson equivalent to the "Imperial" horn.
B&H and Besson did their own separate ranges for some special professional models. Besson did a range of "Symphony" trumpets in various keys and a line of commercial trumpets labelled "New Creation" Their 10-10 range was made for the US market (see the catalogue link above). B&H did trumpets and trombones under the "Sessionair" label which were aimed at commercial players and the trumpets were endorsed by the likes of Kenny Baker and Eddie Calvert. They only made 52 trombones; 50 were the standard range and 2 were experimental ones. I have one of the experimental models.
There were many other models which surface from time to time. These tend to be student line instruments with names such as Oxford, Cambridge, Varsity, 78, 35, 2-20, and Clippertone (a resurrected name from the old Hawkes company pre 1931.
There may have been others which I have yet to learn about.
Cheers
Stewbones
This catalogue was an interesting read. Besson were not lying about the response and slide (lightning quick even before slide lubricant is added). Thank you for posting it.
Hi Mark,
Following the amalgamation of Boosey and Hawkes with Besson UK in 1948, the companies soon rationalised their product ranges.
The B&H student line was "Regent" and the Besson equivalent was "Westminster". These covered all brass band instruments and Bb trumpets.
The B&H intermediate or step-up line was "Emperor" and the Besson was "Stratford". There were trumpet, cornet and tenor trombone(Bb and Bb/F) models in these ranges.
The B&H professional line was the "Imperial" and the Besson line was "New Standard" for valved instruments and "Academy" for trombones although some trombones, especially the older G bass trombones were "New Standard" models. The 8-10 was a professional line.
All the above models were identical within their 3 groups except for engraving and valve caps and finger buttons. There were different counter weights on the trombones also.
French horns were covered by imported student models under the Lafleur/Alliance label and there was an "Imperial" full double horn which was a clone of the Alexander 103 model with the 6 port rotary change valve. I have no information about any Besson equivalent to the "Imperial" horn.
B&H and Besson did their own separate ranges for some special professional models. Besson did a range of "Symphony" trumpets in various keys and a line of commercial trumpets labelled "New Creation" Their 10-10 range was made for the US market (see the catalogue link above). B&H did trumpets and trombones under the "Sessionair" label which were aimed at commercial players and the trumpets were endorsed by the likes of Kenny Baker and Eddie Calvert. They only made 52 trombones; 50 were the standard range and 2 were experimental ones. I have one of the experimental models.
There were many other models which surface from time to time. These tend to be student line instruments with names such as Oxford, Cambridge, Varsity, 78, 35, 2-20, and Clippertone (a resurrected name from the old Hawkes company pre 1931.
There may have been others which I have yet to learn about.
Cheers
Stewbones
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ttf_dj kennedy
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Besson 10-10 information
I ACTUALLY HAD SOMEONE ASK FOR A 10 10 THIS SPRING !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
=================
WENT TO SPAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------ in searching the bunker and the ships hold 00deep in the salt caverns of strategic materials besides the canisters of civil defense rations
AHA !!!! a 10-10--in lacquer ---the most difficult situation was the case tattered by BOER WAR remains and russian front battlefield pickups
oh how the hours flew in the case rebuild !!!!!!!!
having grown up playing a 10$$ besson found abandoned with brittle flaking off laq in a gatorish slick leather bound case in the band room
nickle outers--massively heavy weight ----played so much by me that i wore a hole thru the outer --stilll played by me --once frequently shined w brasso
with a flat black flare [ala jj] in plumed hats and tall bear skin type hats --oh how i love this horn
---
forgotten //obscure //passed over//unknown --so i have collected as many i can find ---knowing exactly what to look for
--------------
the 10-10 even more obscure !!!
-----------
after the search for THE SPANISH TREASURE and its shipping -- up in the high place under the eves in the art house --protected by dust --in a martin case
MINT CONDITION 10-10!!! and in the shipping room --another in silver plate !!!!!!
-----------
actually ''OLD BESSIE --AKA -OLD BLACK MAGIC '' is a plain bell -small bell --there being several variations after --up until the year of disaster 1958
when thereafter the massively heavy weights were soldered on
----------------
meanwhile the euphoniums ruled ever and forever 3 speed raleighs austin healy cooper bodied pre crewe autos
so much change --much for the better --but in many way elegance and manners well speech poetic thought humour --how sad my spelling of words i would use
thespelling has fallen beehind and once i used ONLY FOUNTAIN PENS !!!!!!!
----------
SO BESSON AFFFECIANATAUTOS --TAKE HEART !!!!!!! and brave the brass beaters -save from recycling the old thing -relish in the tatters --AMERIKKKA is going thru and will continue
to follow the grande empire -as the power of the orient yellow menace in time will perhaps overshadow the bird with white head
---------
i really love my BENTLEY -- but at least i can use OLD BESSIE !!!!!!!!
=================
WENT TO SPAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------ in searching the bunker and the ships hold 00deep in the salt caverns of strategic materials besides the canisters of civil defense rations
AHA !!!! a 10-10--in lacquer ---the most difficult situation was the case tattered by BOER WAR remains and russian front battlefield pickups
oh how the hours flew in the case rebuild !!!!!!!!
having grown up playing a 10$$ besson found abandoned with brittle flaking off laq in a gatorish slick leather bound case in the band room
nickle outers--massively heavy weight ----played so much by me that i wore a hole thru the outer --stilll played by me --once frequently shined w brasso
with a flat black flare [ala jj] in plumed hats and tall bear skin type hats --oh how i love this horn
---forgotten //obscure //passed over//unknown --so i have collected as many i can find ---knowing exactly what to look for
--------------
the 10-10 even more obscure !!!
-----------
after the search for THE SPANISH TREASURE and its shipping -- up in the high place under the eves in the art house --protected by dust --in a martin case
MINT CONDITION 10-10!!! and in the shipping room --another in silver plate !!!!!!
-----------
actually ''OLD BESSIE --AKA -OLD BLACK MAGIC '' is a plain bell -small bell --there being several variations after --up until the year of disaster 1958
when thereafter the massively heavy weights were soldered on
----------------
meanwhile the euphoniums ruled ever and forever 3 speed raleighs austin healy cooper bodied pre crewe autos
so much change --much for the better --but in many way elegance and manners well speech poetic thought humour --how sad my spelling of words i would use
thespelling has fallen beehind and once i used ONLY FOUNTAIN PENS !!!!!!!
----------
SO BESSON AFFFECIANATAUTOS --TAKE HEART !!!!!!! and brave the brass beaters -save from recycling the old thing -relish in the tatters --AMERIKKKA is going thru and will continue
to follow the grande empire -as the power of the orient yellow menace in time will perhaps overshadow the bird with white head
---------
i really love my BENTLEY -- but at least i can use OLD BESSIE !!!!!!!!
-
ttf_dj kennedy
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Besson 10-10 information
I ACTUALLY HAD SOMEONE ASK FOR A 10 10 THIS SPRING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=================
WENT TO SPAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------ in searching the bunker and the ships hold 00deep in the salt caverns of strategic materials besides the canisters of civil defense rations
AHA !!!! a 10-10--in lacquer ---the most difficult situation was the case tattered by BOER WAR remains and russian front battlefield pickups
oh how the hours flew in the case rebuild !!!!!!!!
having grown up playing a 10$$ besson found abandoned with brittle flaking off laq in a gatorish slick leather bound case in the band room
nickle outers--massively heavy weight ----played so much by me that i wore a hole thru the outer --stilll played by me --once frequently shined w brasso
with a flat black flare [ala jj] in plumed hats and tall bear skin type hats --oh how i love this horn ---
forgotten //obscure //passed over//unknown --so i have collected as many i can find ---knowing exactly what to look for
--------------
the 10-10 even more obscure !!!
-----------
after the search for THE SPANISH TREASURE and its shipping -- up in the high place under the eves in the art house --protected by dust --in a martin case
MINT CONDITION 10-10!!! and in the shipping room --another in silver plate !!!!!!
-----------
actually ''OLD BESSIE --AKA -OLD BLACK MAGIC '' is a plain bell -small bell --there being several variations after --up until the year of disaster 1958
when thereafter the massively heavy weights were soldered on
----------------
meanwhile the euphoniums ruled ever and forever 3 speed raleighs austin healy cooper bodied pre crewe autos
so much change --much for the better --but in many way elegance and manners well speech poetic thought humour --how sad my spelling of words i would use
thespelling has fallen beehind and once i used ONLY FOUNTAIN PENS !!!!!!!
----------
SO BESSON AFFFECIANATAUTOS --TAKE HEART !!!!!!! and brave the brass beaters -save from recycling the old thing -relish in the tatters --AMERIKKKA is going thru and will continue
to follow the grande empire -as the power of the orient yellow menace in time will perhaps overshadow the bird with white head
---------
i really love my BENTLEY -- but at least i can use OLD BESSIE !!!!!!!!
=================
WENT TO SPAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------ in searching the bunker and the ships hold 00deep in the salt caverns of strategic materials besides the canisters of civil defense rations
AHA !!!! a 10-10--in lacquer ---the most difficult situation was the case tattered by BOER WAR remains and russian front battlefield pickups
oh how the hours flew in the case rebuild !!!!!!!!
having grown up playing a 10$$ besson found abandoned with brittle flaking off laq in a gatorish slick leather bound case in the band room
nickle outers--massively heavy weight ----played so much by me that i wore a hole thru the outer --stilll played by me --once frequently shined w brasso
with a flat black flare [ala jj] in plumed hats and tall bear skin type hats --oh how i love this horn
---forgotten //obscure //passed over//unknown --so i have collected as many i can find ---knowing exactly what to look for
--------------
the 10-10 even more obscure !!!
-----------
after the search for THE SPANISH TREASURE and its shipping -- up in the high place under the eves in the art house --protected by dust --in a martin case
MINT CONDITION 10-10!!! and in the shipping room --another in silver plate !!!!!!
-----------
actually ''OLD BESSIE --AKA -OLD BLACK MAGIC '' is a plain bell -small bell --there being several variations after --up until the year of disaster 1958
when thereafter the massively heavy weights were soldered on
----------------
meanwhile the euphoniums ruled ever and forever 3 speed raleighs austin healy cooper bodied pre crewe autos
so much change --much for the better --but in many way elegance and manners well speech poetic thought humour --how sad my spelling of words i would use
thespelling has fallen beehind and once i used ONLY FOUNTAIN PENS !!!!!!!
----------
SO BESSON AFFFECIANATAUTOS --TAKE HEART !!!!!!! and brave the brass beaters -save from recycling the old thing -relish in the tatters --AMERIKKKA is going thru and will continue
to follow the grande empire -as the power of the orient yellow menace in time will perhaps overshadow the bird with white head
---------
i really love my BENTLEY -- but at least i can use OLD BESSIE !!!!!!!!