Classical pieces - without a tuba?

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:09 pm

I'm writing a Christmas Medley for a church orchestra to be performed early this December. Our bass/low brass consists of a bassoon, possibly one contrabass, and 2 trombones (with of course, piano and synth doubling the low-end string part). Would this suffice for a strictly classical piece? What are some of the risks I might run if I choose NOT to write for tuba for this tune?
In my mind, it seems more about the power in the low end and the tone of the tuba itself that is going to give a particular effect, no?

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:50 pm

I dunnoo... seems like you have no shortage of low end already. I think the bassoons and trombones con sordino might make a fetching renaissance-sounding ensemble and a tuba would stick out like... a sore tuba.

Have the synth use a harpsichord sound.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:31 pm

A lot of the standard orchestral rep doesn't have tuba parts. Don't worry about it.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:10 pm

I suppose those are decent enough answers. Mind you guys - this orchestra is made up of 6 woodwinds, 5 brass, piano, bells and 8 string players doubled by synth. I'm guessing though that in the location (an indoors low-ceiling hall with little resonance, but a good-quality sound system) the lack of bass can be adjusted since we're relying so much less on purely the acoustics of the room anyway.

Just something good to chew on as I arrange in this case!

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:55 pm

The tuba was patented in 1835, so there is no classical music with an original tuba part. You'll be fine with a contrabass and bassoon.

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:16 am

Haydn, Mozart, & Beethoven never saw (or even imagined) such an instrument as a tuba, much less employed one in their compositions. Brahms used a tuba only in his Second Symphony, composed in 1877 - but not in the other three symphonies. The tuba is not a vital element in "classical" music.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:43 am

Quote from: Posaunus on Sep 19, 2017, 12:16AMHaydn, Mozart, & Beethoven never saw (or even imagined) such an instrument as a tuba, much less employed one in their compositions. Brahms used a tuba only in his Second Symphony, composed in 1877 - but not in the other three symphonies. The tuba is not a vital element in "classical" music.

Ahh, but a serpent -- now that's another matter.

And it's replacement, the ophicleide (used by Mendelssohn):

But I wouldn't write parts for one. They are definitely specialist instruments.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:40 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Sep 18, 2017, 08:55PMThe tuba was patented in 1835, so there is no classical music with an original tuba part. You'll be fine with a contrabass and bassoon.
Quote from: Posaunus on Sep 19, 2017, 12:16AMHaydn, Mozart, & Beethoven never saw (or even imagined) such an instrument as a tuba, much less employed one in their compositions. Brahms used a tuba only in his Second Symphony, composed in 1877 - but not in the other three symphonies. The tuba is not a vital element in "classical" music.

These are the comments that pique my interest. I suppose the fact that many well-known composers and well-known work DON'T use tubas speaks for itself. Cool stuff.... guess it could help me a bit to hit the scores! Haven't done ANY score study thus far

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:00 pm

The agony and ecstasy of playing in a good orchestra is sometimes the parts are there or not. If you don't feel a tuba part, then don't write it. I just hope you don't do it to my part.

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:39 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Sep 19, 2017, 05:43AMAnd its replacement, the ophicleide (used by Mendelssohn):

Or as some call it, the awful-cleide. Also notably used by Berlioz in the Symphonie Fantastique. (But not much these days!)

And of course there's always the well-known sarrusaphone, employed by some French composers in the eraly 20th century. (I've actually never seen one in use.)

And the 19th century Italian favorite, the cimbasso!

Who needs a tuba when there are all these other wonderful options?

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:15 pm

Quote from: davdud101 on Sep 19, 2017, 05:40PMThese are the comments that pique my interest. I suppose the fact that many well-known composers and well-known work DON'T use tubas speaks for itself. Cool stuff.... guess it could help me a bit to hit the scores! Haven't done ANY score study thus far

Well, new concert band music often has only 2 trombone parts. The bass bone gets to double on second. Apparently, publishers want it that way, so even some of the higher level bands around here are half of a waste of time if you play bass.

There is no accounting for taste when some music is written.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:27 pm

Quote from: Torobone on Sep 21, 2017, 03:15PMWell, new concert band music often has only 2 trombone parts. The bass bone gets to double on second. Apparently, publishers want it that way, so even some of the higher level bands around here are half of a waste of time if you play bass.

There is no accounting for taste when some music is written.

The reason for that is that the big market for arrangements is for school bands. And most school bands are not in Texas where you have some REALLY good kids and enough to fill full sections. In fact, you need to double the Euph part on Tenor Sax and have lower reeds basically play tuba parts. The result is really uninteresting and quite boring to adults. But it sells arrangements.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:30 pm

Quote from: davdud101 on Sep 19, 2017, 05:40PMThese are the comments that pique my interest. I suppose the fact that many well-known composers and well-known work DON'T use tubas speaks for itself.Slippery slope, my friend - there's more than a few pieces in the standard rep that don't use trombones, either. Just played a concert Sunday where two pieces (one by Beethoven and one by Mozart) that had no trombone parts.

Quote from: Torobone on Sep 21, 2017, 03:15PMThe bass bone gets to double on second.Or just sit the piece out - particularly if the conductor just finished (yet another) rant about the group being too loud. Got a concert coming up in a month or so that I'll probably skip; no third parts at all, and the rest of the section needs help like the desert needs sand.

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:51 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Sep 21, 2017, 04:30PMSlippery slope, my friend - there's more than a few pieces in the standard rep that don't use trombones, either. Just played a concert Sunday where two pieces (one by Beethoven and one by Mozart) that had no trombone parts.
Or just sit the piece out - particularly if the conductor just finished (yet another) rant about the group being too loud. Got a concert coming up in a month or so that I'll probably skip; no third parts at all, and the rest of the section needs help like the desert needs sand.

Yup, that's why I regularly look to sub in orchestras and not join as a member. One good orchestra asked me to join, but there are programs where I would get to just sit. This year, I got to play Tchaik 5 on bass as a sub, and an excellent program on first. Great fun.

Rather than be disappointed when playing bass in orchestras and concert bands, I play bass bone in a top level reading big band. About once per session I have to double third; sometimes there are 5 bone parts and I have a choice.

I play in a concert band as section leader and soloist. The leader makes it a lot of fun.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:56 pm

Such great info here! I totally dig the cimbasso. I sort of wish it were used more - and were easier to rent. I'd love to take one for a spin, but there's nowhere to pick one up.
Thankfully I'm free to sort of tailor the arrangements for fit my needs. I've been able to get some REALLY good results thus far arrangement-wise, and I can tell it's going to sound good in the real (as long as my players know their stuff). The one thing that has this all hanging in the balance is that my exteremely talented guitarist friend agreed to learn upright bass... in 8 weeks, to be good enough for some high-level arrangements. Here's to hoping he pulls it off in time!!

Quote from: JohnL on Sep 21, 2017, 04:30PMSlippery slope, my friend - there's more than a few pieces in the standard rep that don't use trombones, either. Just played a concert Sunday where two pieces (one by Beethoven and one by Mozart) that had no trombone parts.

Wouldn't put it past modern arrangers - but I've got bones, and I'mma use em!!

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:56 pm

Such great info here! I totally dig the cimbasso. I sort of wish it were used more - and were easier to rent. I'd love to take one for a spin, but there's nowhere to pick one up.
Thankfully I'm free to sort of tailor the arrangements for fit my needs. I've been able to get some REALLY good results thus far arrangement-wise, and I can tell it's going to sound good in the real (as long as my players know their stuff). The one thing that has this all hanging in the balance is that my exteremely talented guitarist friend agreed to learn upright bass... in 8 weeks, to be good enough for some high-level arrangements. Here's to hoping he pulls it off in time!!

Quote from: JohnL on Sep 21, 2017, 04:30PMSlippery slope, my friend - there's more than a few pieces in the standard rep that don't use trombones, either. Just played a concert Sunday where two pieces (one by Beethoven and one by Mozart) that had no trombone parts.

Wouldn't put it past modern arrangers - but I've got bones, and I'mma use em!!