I've taken a step towards the dark side and bought an eBay Elkhart 60H.
It's in pretty good shape (former school horn!), and plays pretty well. Some Conn wear, but not a lot. Valve has a tiny amount of play but it's clean.
The horn plays well, but the leadpipe has been reamed out by too many Morse shanks and it plays like it has. I'm going to have it pulled, and I've been advised to replace it with a cheap new 50 leadpipe. I see nothing wrong with this, unless someone here advises me otherwise.
Right now it feels similar to the beater 70H I borrowed from UCLA for a few months, but easier to find the "sweet spot" on, even with my 1G. I'm excited to see how it performs with a new leadpipe.
Conn 60H
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ttf_Burgerbob
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ttf_savio
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Conn 60H
Congratulations! Is the mouthpiece going fare into the horn? So it does on mine too. More than other horns I have. I use mine as my main horn so I'm afraid to do something with it. Let us hear how it goes if you switch leadpipe? I don't know any about it.
Leif
Leif
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ttf_blast
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Conn 60H
In my experience with basses, people who play, and like Bachs never get on with Conns in the long term, same with Conn players who try Bachs.... they are so different. You can mess with the pipe and you might get lucky but it is hard to get a Conn to be Bach-like in any way. Part of what makes the Conn is that feel you are talking about. Morse shanks are not likely to alter the Conn pipe as it has a more shallow taper.... they are often big and take a lot of mouthpiece shank as Savio says.
Chris Stearn
Chris Stearn
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ttf_Burgerbob
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Conn 60H
I'm not really trying to get it to be Bach-like, just playable. If there's another cheap leadpipe out there I can replace it with, I will.
The currently leadpipe has "steps" inside from Morse shanks being pushed in too far. It would also be nice to use modern mouthpiece with a little more ease!
The currently leadpipe has "steps" inside from Morse shanks being pushed in too far. It would also be nice to use modern mouthpiece with a little more ease!
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ttf_Stewbones43
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Conn 60H
You say that there is some wear on the valve, if this is lateral wear i.e. with the valve moving along the axis of the spindle, a simple solution is to drill a small hole in the centre of the removable cap and then thread it to accept a needle point screw. This can then be adjusted to prevent any valve slap and tightened if any more wear occurs, probably in about another 50 years. This technique solved a problem on the worn Holton valves on my TR 181-based bass.
Cheers
Stewbones
Cheers
Stewbones
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ttf_Burgerbob
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Conn 60H
It has a little play that direction, and then the other axis too. So if I feel like fixing it (it's much more minor than my 42B valve was or the 70H I used previously) maybe a replate for the core.
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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Conn 60H
Having owned beautiful priceless 72H ( Elkhart) and early Abilene 60H, made from Elkhart parts, myself:
Before you decide that the leadpipe is the problem-
Buy a Rath B2 or a Conn 3B mouthpiece, and then
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE
Before you begin to get busy with a torch and a repair shop, get your own chops in order. Pull the horn to bE instead of F. And then
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE
There is nothing wrong with the leadpipe. The problem ( if there is one) is with your chops and you inexperience playing that particular 60H.
Before you decide that the leadpipe is the problem-
Buy a Rath B2 or a Conn 3B mouthpiece, and then
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE
Before you begin to get busy with a torch and a repair shop, get your own chops in order. Pull the horn to bE instead of F. And then
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE
There is nothing wrong with the leadpipe. The problem ( if there is one) is with your chops and you inexperience playing that particular 60H.
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ttf_BGuttman
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Conn 60H
Marsh, Burgerbob is no beginner. He's gotten a lot of experience since he joined here a few years ago. I guess you didn't listen to his recital that he posted a link to. When he says the leadpipe is trashed, he knows whereof he speaks.
Aidan, you might what to see if Sandhagen or Close has a leadpipe they can put in.
Incidentlly, Stewbones, my Mirafone F has those screws in the valve caps. They were original equipment. The manual I got from them showed how to adjust them.
Aidan, you might what to see if Sandhagen or Close has a leadpipe they can put in.
Incidentlly, Stewbones, my Mirafone F has those screws in the valve caps. They were original equipment. The manual I got from them showed how to adjust them.
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
Thanks for the heads-up. Bruce.
Yes, when I'm having my morning coffee I look into the recital scene on youtube...even the ones promoed here so frequently. Now, Bruce, please think about the following:
What are the TEACHERS of those who post on youtube doing with their day?
Or do they not have time to do promo stuff, as profs and teachers, because they are playing professional service rehearsals or teaching, and don't have the spare time to amuse the peanut gallery here?
Bruce, I'll say it again-- before ANYONE-- ANYONE-- takes a torch or a saw to an Elkhart Conn, they had better set their own house in order, do some serious time travel, and get in touch with WHAT WAS, not what IS.
And, then, and then only, maybe after they've had a few years of professional day to day, nuts and bolts, experience in the real world counting rest for 45 minutes, and then finding out that the best thing about an Elkhart 60H in Bb/bE is the security of knowing with 1000% self assessment, that the 60H will cover your a** anywhere...without modification.
One moderator here-- with 50 years of professional experience-- and likely a few more decades on top of that of discretion and weighed statements in public, has stated that Bach players might not get on with Conn horns.
Okay, I'll throw in my 35 years of professional experience, and before anybody on youtube takes a torch to an old Conn ( again) I'll say it point blank: If you want to get a vintage Conn to play like a Bach, because you haven't spent years playing a Conn 8 to 12 hours a day, just put the torch aside, and get your credit card out, or mummy and daddie's credit card, and just buy a Yamaha. Neither Conn, nor Bach, just a Yamaha.
And leave the old horns alone until you are serious about something more with it than just playing a recital and then posting it on youtube and waiting for a gig.
Yes, when I'm having my morning coffee I look into the recital scene on youtube...even the ones promoed here so frequently. Now, Bruce, please think about the following:
What are the TEACHERS of those who post on youtube doing with their day?
Or do they not have time to do promo stuff, as profs and teachers, because they are playing professional service rehearsals or teaching, and don't have the spare time to amuse the peanut gallery here?
Bruce, I'll say it again-- before ANYONE-- ANYONE-- takes a torch or a saw to an Elkhart Conn, they had better set their own house in order, do some serious time travel, and get in touch with WHAT WAS, not what IS.
And, then, and then only, maybe after they've had a few years of professional day to day, nuts and bolts, experience in the real world counting rest for 45 minutes, and then finding out that the best thing about an Elkhart 60H in Bb/bE is the security of knowing with 1000% self assessment, that the 60H will cover your a** anywhere...without modification.
One moderator here-- with 50 years of professional experience-- and likely a few more decades on top of that of discretion and weighed statements in public, has stated that Bach players might not get on with Conn horns.
Okay, I'll throw in my 35 years of professional experience, and before anybody on youtube takes a torch to an old Conn ( again) I'll say it point blank: If you want to get a vintage Conn to play like a Bach, because you haven't spent years playing a Conn 8 to 12 hours a day, just put the torch aside, and get your credit card out, or mummy and daddie's credit card, and just buy a Yamaha. Neither Conn, nor Bach, just a Yamaha.
And leave the old horns alone until you are serious about something more with it than just playing a recital and then posting it on youtube and waiting for a gig.
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ttf_BGuttman
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Conn 60H
He's not trying to make it play like a Bach. He's got a Bach that plays like a Bach. He's just trying to replace a dead leadpipe. He thought a Bach 50 copy would be inexpensive. I'd bet he also wants to fit Morse Taper mouthpieces.
He's not far from Brad Close or John Sandhagen (or Bruce Belo) who can all give him good suggestions on what to do. I think he ws trying to arm himself for the discussion.
As to torching an Elkie, this was a school horn. I'd bet it had LOTS of torching done to it in the past. It's not pristine by any measure.
He's not far from Brad Close or John Sandhagen (or Bruce Belo) who can all give him good suggestions on what to do. I think he ws trying to arm himself for the discussion.
As to torching an Elkie, this was a school horn. I'd bet it had LOTS of torching done to it in the past. It's not pristine by any measure.
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Conn 60H
And get off my lawn!
Aidan is a serious player. I also believe him that the old leadpipe is worn out from having the wrong mouthpieces jammed into it. No matter how good a design is, if it's broken it needs to be fixed or replaced.
I don't think I would put a Bach pipe into a 60H, at least not without trying options that are more like what was designed for it. Go see Noah and Brad, have Brad pull the old pipe, and try what they've got.
Aidan is a serious player. I also believe him that the old leadpipe is worn out from having the wrong mouthpieces jammed into it. No matter how good a design is, if it's broken it needs to be fixed or replaced.
I don't think I would put a Bach pipe into a 60H, at least not without trying options that are more like what was designed for it. Go see Noah and Brad, have Brad pull the old pipe, and try what they've got.
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ttf_hyperbolica
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Conn 60H
I get the whole reverence for old Conns thing, I've got a few. But there is also the practicality of maintaining an instrument that is in actual use. I'm also there with not using the 50 leadpipe just because it's convenient/cheap, but I don't think there's anything wrong in principle with replacing a leadpipe on a classic horn in the line of maintenance. If the choice is to maintain the horn or stop playing it, the answer seems obvious. If the horn did school duty, it is probably not a museum piece. I would replace the pipe with a Brass Ark Burt Herrick 62 or the George Roberts 70h(ish) pipe. If you need something a little cheaper, a Kanstul 62 or GR2 will help maintain the original sound. Steering him to an appropriate pipe is better than discouraging the maintenance altogether.
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ttf_bigbassbone1
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:34 pm
Conn 60H
Quote from: bonesmarsh on Sep 14, 2017, 06:32AMThanks for the heads-up. Bruce.
Yes, when I'm having my morning coffee I look into the recital scene on youtube...even the ones promoed here so frequently. Now, Bruce, please think about the following:
What are the TEACHERS of those who post on youtube doing with their day?
Or do they not have time to do promo stuff, as profs and teachers, because they are playing professional service rehearsals or teaching, and don't have the spare time to amuse the peanut gallery here?
Bruce, I'll say it again-- before ANYONE-- ANYONE-- takes a torch or a saw to an Elkhart Conn, they had better set their own house in order, do some serious time travel, and get in touch with WHAT WAS, not what IS.
And, then, and then only, maybe after they've had a few years of professional day to day, nuts and bolts, experience in the real world counting rest for 45 minutes, and then finding out that the best thing about an Elkhart 60H in Bb/bE is the security of knowing with 1000% self assessment, that the 60H will cover your a** anywhere...without modification.
One moderator here-- with 50 years of professional experience-- and likely a few more decades on top of that of discretion and weighed statements in public, has stated that Bach players might not get on with Conn horns.
Okay, I'll throw in my 35 years of professional experience, and before anybody on youtube takes a torch to an old Conn ( again) I'll say it point blank: If you want to get a vintage Conn to play like a Bach, because you haven't spent years playing a Conn 8 to 12 hours a day, just put the torch aside, and get your credit card out, or mummy and daddie's credit card, and just buy a Yamaha. Neither Conn, nor Bach, just a Yamaha.
And leave the old horns alone until you are serious about something more with it than just playing a recital and then posting it on youtube and waiting for a gig.
Ummmmm......
Pretty sure the best teachers and performers do in fact put a lot of their recitals or concerts on youtube.... some even have enough time to make videos freely giving away their thoughts and demonstrations of their pedagogical concepts. Do a search for Pollard or Markey just to name a couple.
I'm sure if you spent 8 to 12 hours a day playing an old conn you could in fact get it to work really well and be good in most performance situations. But having said that, assuming the person is a competent player I reckon if you spent 8 to 12 hours a day on pretty much anything you could make it work effectively if you were committed enough.
It's been said, but Aidan doesn't want it to sound like a bach.... he didn't say that. That seemed to come up out of nowhere!
Yes, when I'm having my morning coffee I look into the recital scene on youtube...even the ones promoed here so frequently. Now, Bruce, please think about the following:
What are the TEACHERS of those who post on youtube doing with their day?
Or do they not have time to do promo stuff, as profs and teachers, because they are playing professional service rehearsals or teaching, and don't have the spare time to amuse the peanut gallery here?
Bruce, I'll say it again-- before ANYONE-- ANYONE-- takes a torch or a saw to an Elkhart Conn, they had better set their own house in order, do some serious time travel, and get in touch with WHAT WAS, not what IS.
And, then, and then only, maybe after they've had a few years of professional day to day, nuts and bolts, experience in the real world counting rest for 45 minutes, and then finding out that the best thing about an Elkhart 60H in Bb/bE is the security of knowing with 1000% self assessment, that the 60H will cover your a** anywhere...without modification.
One moderator here-- with 50 years of professional experience-- and likely a few more decades on top of that of discretion and weighed statements in public, has stated that Bach players might not get on with Conn horns.
Okay, I'll throw in my 35 years of professional experience, and before anybody on youtube takes a torch to an old Conn ( again) I'll say it point blank: If you want to get a vintage Conn to play like a Bach, because you haven't spent years playing a Conn 8 to 12 hours a day, just put the torch aside, and get your credit card out, or mummy and daddie's credit card, and just buy a Yamaha. Neither Conn, nor Bach, just a Yamaha.
And leave the old horns alone until you are serious about something more with it than just playing a recital and then posting it on youtube and waiting for a gig.
Ummmmm......
Pretty sure the best teachers and performers do in fact put a lot of their recitals or concerts on youtube.... some even have enough time to make videos freely giving away their thoughts and demonstrations of their pedagogical concepts. Do a search for Pollard or Markey just to name a couple.
I'm sure if you spent 8 to 12 hours a day playing an old conn you could in fact get it to work really well and be good in most performance situations. But having said that, assuming the person is a competent player I reckon if you spent 8 to 12 hours a day on pretty much anything you could make it work effectively if you were committed enough.
It's been said, but Aidan doesn't want it to sound like a bach.... he didn't say that. That seemed to come up out of nowhere!
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ttf_blast
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Conn 60H
Hard for players who have not spent a good amount of time on Conns to tell if the leadpipe is past it. It's a very American vibe to change pipes as a first stop on the way to getting into a horn. We in this sad little island tend to change pipes on old horns as a last resort, not a first one.... which accounts for my view. My modern Conn has a vintage pipe from a 70H in it.... it seems to make sense.... at least to me. Kanstul pipes play like Kanstul pipes.... Conn, Minick, Herrick... nah....
Conns and Bachs are a different world....
Fact.
You play them in a whole different way.
Chris Stearn
Conns and Bachs are a different world....
Fact.
You play them in a whole different way.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_Burgerbob
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Conn 60H
For reference, here's my teacher in a video (on the left, Alex Iles on the right)-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3aL6NpXGM
I was recommended the 50 leadpipe by a well-known and knowledged tech, who said it was a good drop-in replacement.
Have no fear! I'm not putting dual Thayers on it. Yet...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3aL6NpXGM
I was recommended the 50 leadpipe by a well-known and knowledged tech, who said it was a good drop-in replacement.
Have no fear! I'm not putting dual Thayers on it. Yet...
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ttf_BillO
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Conn 60H
Having a $50 leadpipe put in may make the project run about $125-$150? 
[s]There is a Conn SL6262 for sale on TTF with 3 leadpipes that will probably not loose $150 off it's re-sale value over a year or two. It's another option.[/s]
I just noticed the 60H had TIS. Please ignore.
[s]There is a Conn SL6262 for sale on TTF with 3 leadpipes that will probably not loose $150 off it's re-sale value over a year or two. It's another option.[/s]
I just noticed the 60H had TIS. Please ignore.
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ttf_Dan Hine
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
Quote from: Burgerbob on Sep 14, 2017, 12:18PMFor reference, here's my teacher in the video (on the left)-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3aL6NpXGM
I was recommended the 50 leadpipe by a well-known and knowledged tech, who said it was a good drop-in replacement.
Have no fear! I'm not putting dual Thayers on it. Yet...
Whatever dude... Go practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3aL6NpXGM
I was recommended the 50 leadpipe by a well-known and knowledged tech, who said it was a good drop-in replacement.
Have no fear! I'm not putting dual Thayers on it. Yet...
Whatever dude... Go practice.
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ttf_greenbean
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Conn 60H
Yeah, Burgerbob, I want some long tones! Six hours worth! Get to work!
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ttf_mr.deacon
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Conn 60H
The $50 50B pipe will work well but trust me that it's worth the extra money for one of Noah's pipes.
The George Roberts pipe or the 62H Herrick pipe would both probably work pretty well!
The George Roberts pipe or the 62H Herrick pipe would both probably work pretty well!
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ttf_Burgerbob
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
I have an NY50 in my current Edwards slide. They're great pipes, but a chunk of change, and more importantly a long wait!
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ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
Conn 60H
Email incoming!
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ttf_mr.deacon
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Conn 60H
Quote from: Burgerbob on Sep 14, 2017, 04:40PMI have an NY50 in my current Edwards slide. They're great pipes, but a chunk of change, and more importantly a long wait!
The 62H pipes pop up on the forum from time to time for around $75 or so.
The 62H pipes pop up on the forum from time to time for around $75 or so.
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ttf_jimkinkella
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Conn 60H
Aidan,
I happen to have a 60h TIS with an interchangeable leadpipe setup.
The leadpipe believed to be the original appears "stepped" as does yours.
It's 11-3/8" long, a Greenhoe on my shelf is 8-1/2".
I can't be sure if my "original" is truly original to the horn, I do know that the horn was rebuilt / reassembled over the years before it came to me.
I will say that the long pipe feels like a comfortable old pair of shoes, as opposed to a newer Greenhoe or Shires pipe which feel neat but un-broken in.
The more open pipes do certain thing differently, but not what I was personally looking for.
I would recommend a trip to Brad Close, to at least pull the pipe and play some options.
John Sandhagen may have some parts hanging around as well, his garage is a bit of an Aladdin's cave.
Word of caution - I've seen original leadpipes completely blown apart by removal, it can be an ugly process if it's corroded to the inner.
Feel free to pm me, I'm in dtown LA if you would like to check out a modified slide.
Jim
I happen to have a 60h TIS with an interchangeable leadpipe setup.
The leadpipe believed to be the original appears "stepped" as does yours.
It's 11-3/8" long, a Greenhoe on my shelf is 8-1/2".
I can't be sure if my "original" is truly original to the horn, I do know that the horn was rebuilt / reassembled over the years before it came to me.
I will say that the long pipe feels like a comfortable old pair of shoes, as opposed to a newer Greenhoe or Shires pipe which feel neat but un-broken in.
The more open pipes do certain thing differently, but not what I was personally looking for.
I would recommend a trip to Brad Close, to at least pull the pipe and play some options.
John Sandhagen may have some parts hanging around as well, his garage is a bit of an Aladdin's cave.
Word of caution - I've seen original leadpipes completely blown apart by removal, it can be an ugly process if it's corroded to the inner.
Feel free to pm me, I'm in dtown LA if you would like to check out a modified slide.
Jim
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ttf_Burgerbob
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
Messaged!
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ttf_anonymous
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- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Conn 60H
I seem to remember from an old tromboneforum thread that the "old fix" for Conn 60/62 leadpipes was to use a Bach 50 leadpipe. Not everyone had access to Larry Minick or the other geniuses of trombone modifications.
If you read the descriptions of the Brass Ark Mt Vernon MV50 and the Herrick B62 leadpipes they are somewhat similar in being a tighter, more focused leadpipe. I have not tried them (yet). I have a single valve modern Conn 62 with a Greenhoe valve with a M&K "George Roberts" Olds leadpipe.
Aidan, if you (or anyone else with a 60/62) ever tire of the Conn let me know.
If you read the descriptions of the Brass Ark Mt Vernon MV50 and the Herrick B62 leadpipes they are somewhat similar in being a tighter, more focused leadpipe. I have not tried them (yet). I have a single valve modern Conn 62 with a Greenhoe valve with a M&K "George Roberts" Olds leadpipe.
Aidan, if you (or anyone else with a 60/62) ever tire of the Conn let me know.
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ttf_Horn Builder
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
A point to add to Jim's post.
The pipes supplied by Greenhoe were un-modified, Conn-Selmer factory items. Meaning, they are still in production (as Greenhoe didn't make them in the first place) and are readily available through Conn-Selmer suppliers. Bass pipes in question would be Conn B, C and D should you be interested in pursuing them.
FYI.
M
The pipes supplied by Greenhoe were un-modified, Conn-Selmer factory items. Meaning, they are still in production (as Greenhoe didn't make them in the first place) and are readily available through Conn-Selmer suppliers. Bass pipes in question would be Conn B, C and D should you be interested in pursuing them.
FYI.
M
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ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Conn 60H
Quote from: Horn Builder on Yesterday at 07:01 AMA point to add to Jim's post.
The pipes supplied by Greenhoe were un-modified, Conn-Selmer factory items. Meaning, they are still in production (as Greenhoe didn't make them in the first place) and are readily available through Conn-Selmer suppliers. Bass pipes in question would be Conn B, C and D should you be interested in pursuing them.
FYI.
M
Interesting.... I have a Greenhoe pipe that came with a Greenhoe Bach 50... it's longer than any pipe I have. Came with the horn direct from the factory. I swapped it with the owner of the horn as it didn't work and I had a pipe that did (how nice am I ?) It has never worked in anything.
Original Conn pipes are very, very thin... often destroyed during removal.
Chris Stearn
The pipes supplied by Greenhoe were un-modified, Conn-Selmer factory items. Meaning, they are still in production (as Greenhoe didn't make them in the first place) and are readily available through Conn-Selmer suppliers. Bass pipes in question would be Conn B, C and D should you be interested in pursuing them.
FYI.
M
Interesting.... I have a Greenhoe pipe that came with a Greenhoe Bach 50... it's longer than any pipe I have. Came with the horn direct from the factory. I swapped it with the owner of the horn as it didn't work and I had a pipe that did (how nice am I ?) It has never worked in anything.
Original Conn pipes are very, very thin... often destroyed during removal.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_Burgerbob
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
Just got back from Jim's place.
Results!
His slide, which is actually a Fuchs slide with opera wheel, red tubes, and red crook, is much better than mine. With all leadpipes it blew more open and consistently and sounded better.
My bell section is fine, even in its beater-ish state, thankfully.
My leadpipe looks pretty beat up compared to any of his, including the one that came with his slide.
I think I'll have the slide rebuilt and a new leadpipe put in.
Results!
His slide, which is actually a Fuchs slide with opera wheel, red tubes, and red crook, is much better than mine. With all leadpipes it blew more open and consistently and sounded better.
My bell section is fine, even in its beater-ish state, thankfully.
My leadpipe looks pretty beat up compared to any of his, including the one that came with his slide.
I think I'll have the slide rebuilt and a new leadpipe put in.
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ttf_The Bone Ranger
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
Quote from: Burgerbob on Yesterday at 05:36 PMHis slide, which is actually a Fuchs slide with opera wheel, red tubes, and red crook, is much better than mine. With all leadpipes it blew more open and consistently and sounded better.
My bell section is fine, even in its beater-ish state, thankfully.
My leadpipe looks pretty beat up compared to any of his, including the one that came with his slide.
I think I'll have the slide rebuilt and a new leadpipe put in.
Whilst I'm sure that a slide rebuild and lead pipe will likely give a positive result, my understanding is that the heavier opera-wheel style slide makes quite a large difference to how these instruments perform.
I wonder how much of what you experienced was due to the configuration of the slide, rather than the build quality?
I'm sure Chris can weigh in on the two different types of Conn TIS varieties, and their effect on a horn.
Andrew
My bell section is fine, even in its beater-ish state, thankfully.
My leadpipe looks pretty beat up compared to any of his, including the one that came with his slide.
I think I'll have the slide rebuilt and a new leadpipe put in.
Whilst I'm sure that a slide rebuild and lead pipe will likely give a positive result, my understanding is that the heavier opera-wheel style slide makes quite a large difference to how these instruments perform.
I wonder how much of what you experienced was due to the configuration of the slide, rather than the build quality?
I'm sure Chris can weigh in on the two different types of Conn TIS varieties, and their effect on a horn.
Andrew
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ttf_tbarh
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Conn 60H
Quote from: savio on Today at 12:38 AMI have some of this old conn bass trombones but doesnt have that lot of experience with them. Anyway I tried a 70h slide on the 60h and it didnt feel right. Lets see what Chris tell.
Leif
I did the same with my 70H slide on a 62H bell section.... And, had the direct opposit effect . Much more solid sound.. Still wide and interesting bur more punch and power..
BTW ! Congrats on scoring the Mv 1 1/2G , Leif ! ... I was hoping that the 2G he had for sale was also a MV ,but unfortunately not .
Trond
Leif
I did the same with my 70H slide on a 62H bell section.... And, had the direct opposit effect . Much more solid sound.. Still wide and interesting bur more punch and power..
BTW ! Congrats on scoring the Mv 1 1/2G , Leif ! ... I was hoping that the 2G he had for sale was also a MV ,but unfortunately not .
Trond
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ttf_blast
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Conn 60H
The different operating systems do produce a difference but not too much. I have removed a couple of the opera wheel types and replaced them with lighter systems. The slide moves easier, of course, but they also are more free in the blow, but lighter in sound. Some 60H slides are really stuffy... a combination of pipe, tube thick ness, bottom bow and build.
What I am saying is that a poor slide might need a LOT of work.... and still be not right.
It might be cheaper to buy that slide in classifieds and have it converted to TIS ..... I have done that before and a TIS conversion is not the big deal that some say it is.
Chris Stearn
What I am saying is that a poor slide might need a LOT of work.... and still be not right.
It might be cheaper to buy that slide in classifieds and have it converted to TIS ..... I have done that before and a TIS conversion is not the big deal that some say it is.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_Horn Builder
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
"a TIS conversion is not the big deal that some say it is", That is "if" you know what you're doing, and have access to parts.
M
M
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ttf_Burgerbob
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
800 plus parts and labor to turn it into to TIS (at a different length and width to the original) seems a little silly, IMO.
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ttf_Horn Builder
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Conn 60H
800 "plus" parts and labor? Yeah, that's a bit much. Who quoted that? Sounds like they didn't want the job?
M
M
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ttf_mr.deacon
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Conn 60H
Quote from: BillO on Yesterday at 08:36 PMI don't think you will lose much on that. Turning the slide into a TIS slide will increase it's value.
Not necessarily. You still have to find somebody to buy a TIS handslide and there aren't many people looking for one, meaning you'd have to sell it at a lower price to sell it in a timely manner.
Not necessarily. You still have to find somebody to buy a TIS handslide and there aren't many people looking for one, meaning you'd have to sell it at a lower price to sell it in a timely manner.
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ttf_Burgerbob
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
Quote from: Horn Builder on Yesterday at 07:01 PM800 "plus" parts and labor? Yeah, that's a bit much. Who quoted that? Sounds like they didn't want the job?
M
I'm talking about the modern 62H slide for sale in the classifieds, which currently is up for $800, plus the cost to have it changed over. I don't own any other Conn slides... I don't think Chris would approve of me turning a Bach slide into TIS for a 60H!
M
I'm talking about the modern 62H slide for sale in the classifieds, which currently is up for $800, plus the cost to have it changed over. I don't own any other Conn slides... I don't think Chris would approve of me turning a Bach slide into TIS for a 60H!
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ttf_blast
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Conn 60H
If you want a wider crook and to have it made shorter it would start to add up. I am not sure if the slide for sale has removable oversleeves.... that is an important element. It is a fairly new slide, so $800 seems fair. If it were $600 I would buy it myself and use the tubes to rebuild my 70H slide.....
Chris Stearn
Chris Stearn
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ttf_Burgerbob
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
Got the horn back from John today...
Now with a press fit 50 leadpipe!
It plays a lot better
Now with a press fit 50 leadpipe!
It plays a lot better
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ttf_Burgerbob
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
Old leadpipe lost a good inch off the top trying to get it out. The rest is in good shape! The slide was rebuilt and John took off the J bend to take out the dings. Apparently the guys at Elkhart left some space in the build!
As for playing like a Bach? I don't think so, but then again I only own a couple. The stock Bach leadpipe that I have in it now is much the same thickness, and maybe a little longer than the previous Conn leadpipe. It definitely only works up to a certain amount of air and then doesn't respond in the same way, which is to be expected.
The horn before was ok. Not a bad instrument. But now it might actually be playable to a higher level. I'll get plenty of time on it in the next few weeks.
As for playing like a Bach? I don't think so, but then again I only own a couple. The stock Bach leadpipe that I have in it now is much the same thickness, and maybe a little longer than the previous Conn leadpipe. It definitely only works up to a certain amount of air and then doesn't respond in the same way, which is to be expected.
The horn before was ok. Not a bad instrument. But now it might actually be playable to a higher level. I'll get plenty of time on it in the next few weeks.
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ttf_blast
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Conn 60H
Quote from: Burgerbob on Oct 05, 2017, 11:38PMOld leadpipe lost a good inch off the top trying to get it out. The rest is in good shape! The slide was rebuilt and John took off the J bend to take out the dings. Apparently the guys at Elkhart left some space in the build!
As for playing like a Bach? I don't think so, but then again I only own a couple. The stock Bach leadpipe that I have in it now is much the same thickness, and maybe a little longer than the previous Conn leadpipe. It definitely only works up to a certain amount of air and then doesn't respond in the same way, which is to be expected.
The horn before was ok. Not a bad instrument. But now it might actually be playable to a higher level. I'll get plenty of time on it in the next few weeks.
What do you think is wrong with space in joints ?
Chris Stearn
As for playing like a Bach? I don't think so, but then again I only own a couple. The stock Bach leadpipe that I have in it now is much the same thickness, and maybe a little longer than the previous Conn leadpipe. It definitely only works up to a certain amount of air and then doesn't respond in the same way, which is to be expected.
The horn before was ok. Not a bad instrument. But now it might actually be playable to a higher level. I'll get plenty of time on it in the next few weeks.
What do you think is wrong with space in joints ?
Chris Stearn
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ttf_Burgerbob
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
Quote from: blast on Yesterday at 01:06 AMWhat do you think is wrong with space in joints ?
Chris Stearn
Only something John said.
Chris Stearn
Only something John said.
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ttf_blast
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Conn 60H
Mick Rath would probably disagree..... I remember asking him when I started visiting the factory in the early 2000's if he mated all tubes so there was no gap and he just smiled and said he had tried that.... as an apprentice years before, and life was not that simple. I have since found gaps in lots of Elkhart Conns, and New York Bachs.... and Holtons....
In building up frankenbones a gap between a couple of tubes has been the answer to all sorts of problems. John may well have improved your trombone. Just saying that building trombones is a whole other thing.
Chris Stearn
In building up frankenbones a gap between a couple of tubes has been the answer to all sorts of problems. John may well have improved your trombone. Just saying that building trombones is a whole other thing.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_jimkinkella
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Conn 60H
Chris, curious what issues what may be helped by introducing certain gaps?
I can see fixing intonation, or leaving a gap where necessary to allow pieces to sit together without tension, but I'm curious if there are any acoustic differences / improvements that may have been observed by "introducing" one.
Fwiw I've watched John heat up plenty of parts that just end up "pinging" apart because they were just squeezed together at the factory.
I trust John's distrust of the factories, but also understand there are a few that actually do well.
Appreciate your insight
Thanks
Jim
I can see fixing intonation, or leaving a gap where necessary to allow pieces to sit together without tension, but I'm curious if there are any acoustic differences / improvements that may have been observed by "introducing" one.
Fwiw I've watched John heat up plenty of parts that just end up "pinging" apart because they were just squeezed together at the factory.
I trust John's distrust of the factories, but also understand there are a few that actually do well.
Appreciate your insight
Thanks
Jim
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ttf_blast
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Conn 60H
Quote from: jimkinkella on Yesterday at 02:41 PMChris, curious what issues what may be helped by introducing certain gaps?
I can see fixing intonation, or leaving a gap where necessary to allow pieces to sit together without tension, but I'm curious if there are any acoustic differences / improvements that may have been observed by "introducing" one.
Fwiw I've watched John heat up plenty of parts that just end up "pinging" apart because they were just squeezed together at the factory.
I trust John's distrust of the factories, but also understand there are a few that actually do well.
Appreciate your insight
Thanks
Jim
When I am building up a trombone there are some places where I avoid gaps. . Some places where I build in gaps. Things you learn over time. A bit like playing.
Chris Stearn
I can see fixing intonation, or leaving a gap where necessary to allow pieces to sit together without tension, but I'm curious if there are any acoustic differences / improvements that may have been observed by "introducing" one.
Fwiw I've watched John heat up plenty of parts that just end up "pinging" apart because they were just squeezed together at the factory.
I trust John's distrust of the factories, but also understand there are a few that actually do well.
Appreciate your insight
Thanks
Jim
When I am building up a trombone there are some places where I avoid gaps. . Some places where I build in gaps. Things you learn over time. A bit like playing.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
In defense of Chris, who needs no defense--
Every single trombone I have ever seen has been hollow in the center, with a small gap at one end, and a large gap at the end of the bell that goes on to infinity and is infinitely large.
If you want a better horn I was always taught to apply my embouchre, and mouthpiece, to the smaller gap, and practice hard, repeatedly, until the sound coming out of the infinitely large gap was improved.
Every single trombone I have ever seen has been hollow in the center, with a small gap at one end, and a large gap at the end of the bell that goes on to infinity and is infinitely large.
If you want a better horn I was always taught to apply my embouchre, and mouthpiece, to the smaller gap, and practice hard, repeatedly, until the sound coming out of the infinitely large gap was improved.
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ttf_Burgerbob
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Conn 60H
Quote from: bonesmarsh on Today at 05:15 AMIn defense of Chris, who needs no defense--
Every single trombone I have ever seen has been hollow in the center, with a small gap at one end, and a large gap at the end of the bell that goes on to infinity and is infinitely large.
If you want a better horn I was always taught to apply my embouchre, and mouthpiece, to the smaller gap, and practice hard, repeatedly, until the sound coming out of the infinitely large gap was improved.
Such wisdom.
Every single trombone I have ever seen has been hollow in the center, with a small gap at one end, and a large gap at the end of the bell that goes on to infinity and is infinitely large.
If you want a better horn I was always taught to apply my embouchre, and mouthpiece, to the smaller gap, and practice hard, repeatedly, until the sound coming out of the infinitely large gap was improved.
Such wisdom.